Curse

draxynnic · Aug 29, 2008, 04:36 AM // 04:36

Your avatar is looking quite ironic right now, Azazel...

On topic, my suspicion is that the Afflicted are still technically 'alive', and were originally created as a side-effect of Shiro's presence rather than any direct action of Shiro's. It seems that he did find a way to control them (or at least find a way to stop them from attacking his actual servants - I'm not sure if it is ever made clear whether they're actually taking his orders or just madly attacking everything that isn't his, but the difference is fairly academic).

What I think happens with the Afflicted is that the plague transforms their bodies and causes them to go mad - however, they don't actually die until slain, until then being more like a horribly mutating form of rabies. Furthermore, the Chalice of Corruption quest line and the new Chasing Zenmai indicate that the Am Fah have a means of allowing this process to occur in Shiro's absence, even after Shiro had been sent into Torment.

Sai Sayre · Sep 04, 2008, 06:20 PM // 18:20

actually, for the afflicted y'all should watch your factions cinematics again. at the end of nahpui quarter you get a front row seat to shiro creating two afflicted when he forces them back into their bodies to fight for him. i believe the affliction is only considered a plague because the people of cantha can't see shiro, as they aren't weh no su.

as for the shiro'ken, there's a couple of adepts collecting their soul stones, and adept yiwong in imperial sanctum tells you flat out that those are what're animating them. now, what a soul stone is exactly i don't kno, but i'd imagine shiro uses that small object to trap a soul and then buries the stone deep inside the statue or armor, so even if it is broken another could be reanimated.

moving on. even when spirits are devoured i doubt they're completely destroyed. until the demon is destroyed, i assume the spirit somehow gives it greater power. then when they die, the soul takes option three, and is released as particles into the mist. souls obviously generate energy, as the tortureweb dryders in the gate of pain are collecting them to power the soulweir, which the official wiki states is the dam holding back the river of souls.

theres really just a ton of places souls can go though. if the death is surprising and violent, like the searing, they can even apparently slip past grenth into the underworld unjudged...or perhaps the searing wasn't a good time for grenth either, as his reapers seemed a little occupied. you have the hall of heroes, which seems a bit like the norse valhalla, and of course the river, which seems a bit like an area in the greek underworld.

i think most of the souls are picked up by envoys in a very short amount of time, seeing as the envoys are being punished. i seriously doubt they're allowed to slack off on the job. so most of the souls we see walking around have either been deemed unworthy of proceeding into the next life (like the guy in the crystal desert who poisoned his wife and kids so they wouldn't die slowly and our beloved ghostly hero), those who are sworn to protect something (the book from ruins of surmia) and those with unfinished business (like chebar from the quest belated betrothal in the crystal desert).

Konig Des Todes · Sep 04, 2008, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sai Sayre

actually, for the afflicted y'all should watch your factions cinematics again. at the end of nahpui quarter you get a front row seat to shiro creating two afflicted when he forces them back into their bodies to fight for him. i believe the affliction is only considered a plague because the people of cantha can't see shiro, as they aren't weh no su.

as for the shiro'ken, there's a couple of adepts collecting their soul stones, and adept yiwong in imperial sanctum tells you flat out that those are what're animating them. now, what a soul stone is exactly i don't kno, but i'd imagine shiro uses that small object to trap a soul and then buries the stone deep inside the statue or armor, so even if it is broken another could be reanimated.

That is basically what I said in the first post... Except, I didn't mention a soul stone, but the theory is still the same, you just added a catalyst.

Quote:

moving on. even when spirits are devoured i doubt they're completely destroyed. until the demon is destroyed, i assume the spirit somehow gives it greater power. then when they die, the soul takes option three, and is released as particles into the mist. souls obviously generate energy, as the tortureweb dryders in the gate of pain are collecting them to power the soulweir, which the official wiki states is the dam holding back the river of souls.

When the demon is killed after eating a soul, depending on how much time has passed, the soul can return from the innards of the demon. And, with the laws of physics *which do apply in every place in GW that is not influenced by magic*, energy cannot simply disappear. Spirits who are devoured act the same way as food, giving the demon energy slowly being used up, basically going from conserved energy to motion energy. And for the wiki, you cannot believe everything the wiki says. Not saying that right there is wrong, but I'm just warning you for when it is wrong. Not to mention, that description is not technically "official" but is what people have put in.

Quote:

theres really just a ton of places souls can go though. if the death is surprising and violent, like the searing, they can even apparently slip past grenth into the underworld unjudged...or perhaps the searing wasn't a good time for grenth either, as his reapers seemed a little occupied. you have the hall of heroes, which seems a bit like the norse valhalla, and of course the river, which seems a bit like an area in the greek underworld.

Currently, the River of Souls has no known connection to where people go in the afterlife. If you are referring to the wiki page, there is no support for that really. It is simply a river, made of souls. Also, it seems all spirits go to Grenth immediately, only exception may be those who are sent to the Realm of Torment by being taken there by the Envoys like Shiro was and those who are taken by the other god's avatars, like Ural. Those in the Hall of Heroes were first judged by Grenth.

Quote:

i think most of the souls are picked up by envoys in a very short amount of time, seeing as the envoys are being punished. i seriously doubt they're allowed to slack off on the job. so most of the souls we see walking around have either been deemed unworthy of proceeding into the next life (like the guy in the crystal desert who poisoned his wife and kids so they wouldn't die slowly and our beloved ghostly hero), those who are sworn to protect something (the book from ruins of surmia) and those with unfinished business (like chebar from the quest belated betrothal in the crystal desert).

Like I said on GWO, the Crystal Desert spirits have one of two goals that they wish to see completed. The first being finishing the pilgramige/wanting to see Turai Ossa ascend. The second, wishing they were still alive and hating their, too soon, death. The ones in Ascalon wish to see Ascalon rebuilt to it's former glory, or to see the Charr dead.

I have not seen any who have been deemed unworthy of proceeding to the next life. The Ghostly Hero, or more acurratly, Turai Ossa, has unfinished business. The father ghost also has unfinished business *wanting himself to be punished for his actions/wanting to see his family again*.

draxynnic · Sep 05, 2008, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sai Sayre

actually, for the afflicted y'all should watch your factions cinematics again. at the end of nahpui quarter you get a front row seat to shiro creating two afflicted when he forces them back into their bodies to fight for him. i believe the affliction is only considered a plague because the people of cantha can't see shiro, as they aren't weh no su.

as for the shiro'ken, there's a couple of adepts collecting their soul stones, and adept yiwong in imperial sanctum tells you flat out that those are what're animating them. now, what a soul stone is exactly i don't kno, but i'd imagine shiro uses that small object to trap a soul and then buries the stone deep inside the statue or armor, so even if it is broken another could be reanimated.

From my memory of the cinematic, it doesn't actually show WHAT he does with the souls. The cinematic ends when he tells them that they're going to fight for him.

Furthermore, it's made fairly clear that the Shiro'ken are created from planting souls that Shiro gained control over into the construct (presumably via the soul stones). We see this happening in person at the very next mission at Tahnnakai, where we interrupt the process of binding the heroes of Cantha before it is completed.

As I mentioned before, we also see from other side quests (Chalice of Corruption, Chasing Zenmai) that the Am Fah can create more Afflicted using the chalices in Shiro's absence. Presumably, the substances in the chalices were collected somehow from the corruption left behind by Shiro's presence, such as the clouds we see floating around in the second mission of Factions. This implies that a) the process DOES act like a disease (with the chalices containing a concentrated contagion), and b) the process of creating Afflicted does not require Shiro's presence.

In fact, we see a further demonstration of the Affliction in action in the very first mission, where infected guards that have yet to actually reach the final stage of Affliction have nonetheless shown signs of behaviour alteration from the Affliction - specifically, attacking everything that isn't affected by the plague. Comparing with the Drink From The Chalice Of Corruption quest, it seems that the affliction has three stages: the first stage simply causes sickness (represented by health degeneration and a miasma cloud visible to other players); the second stage causes the victim to go insane, the third causes the mutations into the easily-recognisable Afflicted. One can presume that going from the first stage to the second is a question of willpower, and that PCs that reach this stage are able to hold off going to the second indefinitely. Importantly, however, the couple at the Nahpui cinematic show none of the signs of any stage of the Affliction. Conceivably, Shiro might be able to shove them back in their bodies and super-accelerate the process, but given that Afflicted are at most level 24 (except for bosses) and Shiro'ken are level 28, it seems that the spirits would be more efficiently used to create more Shiro'ken. Besides, that army in the Imperial Palace has to have come from somewhere.

So, my conclusion is this: The Afflicted are, in fact, pretty much as described in the manual - it's a kind of disease that drives the victims insane and makes them susceptible to Shiro's will, but don't require his personal involvement to be created - all he needs to build an army of Afflicted is to create a large enough outbreak and allow it to take its course. The Shiro'ken, however, require actively channeling the souls into the construct via the soul stones. I'd guess that the boss Shiro'ken come from employing the procedure on a hero, while the lesser Shiro'ken are the result of using the procedure on the rank and file.

Thus, my conclusion is that the couple confronted by Shiro in the cutscene at the end of Nahpui were in fact made into rank-and-file Shiro'ken, rather than Afflicted. Furthermore, the scene served as a foreshadowing of what would be found at Tahnnakai, showing that Shiro had some method of controlling the disembodied spirits of the dead.