Curse

Konig Des Todes · Jun 07, 2008, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Version 2.0

Enjoy

First, there are a few stages of "Life," which is how I will split up my main argument on the topic. Each stage deals with a different type of body or location. The stages, as I have named them, are Mortal Life, Ghostly Life, and Afterworld Life. The reason why I got interested in this topic is because there is no information, at least that I can find, to deal with where they go after the "Afterworld Life."

Stage 1: Mortal Life

This stage is fairly simple and self-explanatory. It is the life of corporeal beings, with physical bodies. Basically their original life.

How I view this stage of life is that there is a physical body that traps (for lack of a better word) the soul and keeps it in the physical world. While it traps the soul, it also protects the soul, preventing any damage to it. The reason why I say "trap" is because the soul cannot freely leave the physical body, not like anyone would want it to of course.

As evidence by Shiro, it is possible to return to this stage, through use of magic, or more possibly through the help of a god. Because Shiro was able to return to his mortal body, something I now wonder is "Will we meet others who will return from the 'Ghostly Life' to the 'Mortal Life?'"

That is, other then Undead, which is the affect of Spirits being forced into dead bodies. Unlike Shiro, who simply took on flesh and bone from his spirit form.

I can't see anything else needing to be explained in this stage, so I'll move onto the second stage.

Stage 2: Ghostly Life

This stage is also a little self-explanatory. In this stage, souls that lost their bodies wonder the world, waiting to be taken to their afterlife destination (usually the Underworld, sometimes other realm of the gods). It is this stage that all of the souls in the world are in that do not have physical bodies (i.e. the spirits in the Crystal Desert, Desolation, Ascalon, etc.).

This stage can also be considered the stage for "Spirits who cannot find rest," as it is the same idea. Spirits here are simply waiting to move on, or unable to move on due to some regret or mistake regarding their "Mortal Life."

When under the order of the gods, it seems that spirits are allowed to travel between this stage and the next stage freely. Mostly evident by the Avatar of the gods (which mostly look like spirits, Lyssa and Kormir being the exception) and the Envoys (as they are the spirits of past criminals who have to shepherd the dead).

Stage 3: Afterworld Life

This stage, also being self-explanatory, is what I'm interested the most.

First, I will start off by saying that there seems to be two ways into this stage. The first being obvious, an Envoy takes the spirit to it's rightful destination. The second, which is one of the things that intrigued me on this topic, is that when you kill a ghost, it is sent to the underworld.

The evidence I have for this is the quest Refuse the King, mainly the reward dialogue. For time issues, I shall quote the reward dialogue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myrish the Slave

"Perhaps there is some good left in this world, for you turned down Jahnus at great risk to your life. That vile beast deserves whatever awaits him in the depths of the Underworld. I only wish it could have been I who cast down his spirit. The dead are grateful, my friend, and hope you will accept this token."

Seeing how those who take this quest has to kill the spirit of King Jahnus, and his spirit is sent to the Underworld, then that means that killing a spirit that is in the "Ghostly Stage" just sends it to the next life.

The thing that interests me the most, is what happens to the spirit if it is killed in the Rift, such as the Realm of Torment. The Lich and Shiro are perfect examples for this. After the player killed them in the Gate of Madness, as they were spirits, what happens to them?

Well, there are only three possibilities I can think of.

Possibility 1:
The spirit, when killed in the Rift, is reborn in that area. There could be some time between the "rebirth" of the soul, or it can be instantaneous, just in a different location. My reasoning for this is that many books I have read in the past claim, at least in their own story, that souls are indestructible, if that is the case for Guild Wars, then when you "kill a spirit" its location just simply changes.

Possibility 2:
When a spirit is killed in the Rift, it disappears forever. Again this idea is inspired by past books and shows that I have read/seen. In those stories, the idea is that the body protects the soul, but once the soul is removed, they are very fragile and can "break" with the slightest touch. But, in some of those same stories, once the soul enters the spirit world, or afterlife, whatever term you wish to use, then the soul becomes "less-fragile" due to being around the same substance as the soul itself. Of course, being less fragile does not mean that it cannot still just disappear.

Possibility 3:
The final possibility, would be when the spirit dies in the Rift, the "spirit energy," as one can call it, is absorbed into the Rift, or sent back to the Mist.

This idea was inspired by the Anime/Manga Bleach, which states that when the soul dies in the soul society or Hueco Mundo(The Hollow's world), the spirit becomes particles which is absorbed into the surrounding area, which creates more of the area.

This idea seems to me to be the most probable of the possibilities, mainly due to the fact that seeing how long the "world of Tyria" has existed, and that other places exist with souls, that there is an scarcity of souls in places like the Underworld.

Alternative Death:

While a soul can be simply killed, there are many ways to die. One way is to be eaten by a demon, such as a Margonite. Along with what happens to a spirit when they die normally, we do not know what happens to a spirit when they are eaten.

According to the quests Vanishing Spirits, A Tasty Morsel, and The Growing Thread, it is known that Margonites and Torment Demons eat spirits as food.

What I see as the most likely thing to happen would be the same as the above "Possibility 2," the complete destruction of the soul. Similar to how when a Hollow from the Bleach show devours a soul, that soul is removed completely (or if "unfinished," corrupted, but that does not seem to happen as Kwalanah was "unfinished" and was not corrupted).

Summoned Spirits

Nature Spirits

This is a short and simple thing. Although they have the name "spirit" in them, they are not the same type of spirit as a soul. As their own name says, they are Nature Spirits, which are, technically, aspects of Nature, from winter to Favored Winds, they all bring about a different natural affect.

Binding Ritual Spirits

The quest Haunted actually helps explain where the spirits that Ritualists summon come from. Although not directly explained, it has spirits summoned with the names Anguish, Sorrow, and Regret, and those spirits are suffering from such things. It seems to me, that the spirits that are summoned are regular spirits, that are filled with a certain type of emotion (e.g. Pain, Anguish, etc). It also seems that the more the emotion is stuck in them, the stronger it is.

Now of course not all of the spirits have the emotion of the name, as Empowerment and the like are not emotions. But they have the intent to do what the spirit does, such as the intent to help, so they help in different ways.

In other words, the spirits that Ritualists summon are regular spirits that just take the form of those aspects, as they are bound to where they are summoned (other spirits are not bound, so they have the shape of their physical form).

Undeath

Basic Undead

As we all know, undead are dead bodies that have been animated. And of course, only a Necromancer can make an undead. True undead, not minions like what those of the *barely mentioned* "Order" of the Necromancers create, are created by attaching a soul to a dead body, creating an *usually* obedient servant.

This means that the spirit is trapped within the soul, forcing a second Mortal life on the spirit. When that body is killed *again*, the spirit would be released and move to the next stage, a Ghostly Life, until the spirit is taken to the Rift *specifically the Underworld* or is put into yet another dead body to create a new undead.

For more information on Undead generally and not undead and spirits, visit this thread. I may have to go back through and fix that thread up, just a warning.

Afflicted

Afflicted, despite their origins, are very much like undead, and can even be considered a sub-species of undead. They are created by Shiro when he does not move spirits to their destination. Whether they are spirits put into a body like other undead or are literally created by the plague and not Shiro's immediate actions, I have yet to find out.

So Afflicted are either a different type of Undead, or they are corrupted bodies and souls.

Shiro'Ken

Shiro'ken are also very much like Undead. Also created by Shiro like the Afflicted, these are only created by immediate actions by Shiro. In order to create Shiro'ken, he must take spirits and bind them to armor and other objects *the humanoid seem to be armor while the others seem to be statue or something of the like*.

So Shiro'ken are spirits that are bound to formerly inanimate objects, just as Undead are spirits that are bound to formerly inanimate bodies.

Liches

Liches are powerful magicians that casted a spell before they died that would preserve their spirit in their body. (Source) There are three known Liches - Vizier Khilbron aka The Lich Lord, Palawa Joko, and Zoldark - and of these liches, only one's origin is known. That being Khilbron, an Orrian Vizier who was corrupted by Abaddon and used an ancient scroll to destroy Orr which turned him into the lich. Joko's and Zoldark's origins are unknown as of now, and it seems that Zoldark will not be mentioned again in the future as he was just a side-boss that we killed *supposedly, it is unknown if he, like Joko and Khilbron, can reanimate himself*.

As I just stated, Palawa Joko and Vizier Khilbron can both reanimate themselves upon death. That is, their souls do not leave their bodies. This is the main thing that separates a "True Lich" from the powerful Undead that lead others. It is because of this, that Zoldark may not be a "True Lich," but just a powerful undead. It is also known that "True Liches" have to be killed in a very specific way, such as how we kill Khilbron.

Undead Dragon

Sadly, very little is known about the Undead Dragon residing under Orr. But what is known is that it is able to change both living and dead into draconic undead servants. This implies that the Undead Dragon acts very similar to that of a "True Lich".

poasiods · Jun 07, 2008, 08:27 PM // 20:27

I don't see too many differences between the three possibilities you proposed, but I'll go with the third one.

We can safely say that the Mists is connected to the real/underworld and fuels it with particles and such necessary for forming parts of spirits as well as more corporeal beings (seeing everything in Guild Wars is supposed to have originated from the Mists). To think the Mists is now separated from the Guild Wars worlds after essentially forming it is ridiculous, so we should settle with Mists' innate connection to the world of Guild Wars.

Talking about this Mists, it would be logical to think that it has a limited amount of things to fuel the world of Guild Wars with. That is to say, the Mists must receive its share of materials from somewhere to put in GW worlds. It would make sense to say that the thing goes in a cycle - Mists -> Guild Wars world -> Corporal Beings/Spirits -> Mists.

First possibility suggests simply ignoring Mists's role in rebirth and such.

Second possibility suggests that the particles forming GW world's inhabitants (corporal or spiritual) simply vanish into nothing.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 07, 2008, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by poasiods

I don't see too many differences between the three possibilities you proposed, but I'll go with the third one.

The difference is what happens.
Possibility 1: Nothing really happens.
Possibility 2: Essence disappears forever (Which I personally disagree with but added for the sake of argument and the fact that it is a possibility)
Possibility 3: The whole recycling thing you said occurs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by poasiods

First possibility suggests simply ignoring Mists's role in rebirth and such.

Second possibility suggests that the particles forming GW world's inhabitants (corporal or spiritual) simply vanish into nothing.

For the first idea ignoring the Mists' role in rebirth, as far as I have noted, it is never said that the Mists actually give rebirth to things, it just creates things and is the center of the Guild Wars Universe (so to speak). So it does ignore that idea, but that idea is never proven.

For the second possibility, as I said above (and thought I mentioned in my op), that is the least likely, as, to my belief and through science (and because of the science part, I probably removed that from my op, to avoid "games don't have to use real world logic" comments), Everything must come from something. Energy does not simply disappear, it simply changes form, such as from movement to sound and/or heat. The same principle can be said for Spirits and their essence, when they die, they just get recycled through the mists, as you pointed out.

Personally, I agree with the third possibility, but I mentioned all three because they are all, well, possibilities.

Pyra Fade · Jun 07, 2008, 10:33 PM // 22:33

very nice

i also agree with the 3rd, it makes the most sense. the circle of life thing.

and also, (the idea coming from what i remember of Final Fantasy X, and the Inheritance series by Paolini) i think that the mist is the intangible force of existence in Guild Wars, and that souls when they return there, they become forces of Guild Wars. the random "wild" magic seen in the world, which is perhaps controled by the gods? (like going thru augry rock)

ok, lemmie try n restate all that lol.

in FFX, when souls die they go to the (i forget the name of the place, but its similar to the Mists i think) and if they do not find purpose, they come back to the mortal realm as monsters and such. perhaps the same happens with guild wars, a destroyed soul becomes pure energy, loose in the world (that idea is from Inheritance) waiting to be put to use by the gods, as a life force in a newborn (thus going along the Mist -> Mortal Life -> etc. etc. -> Mist cycle), or in other acts of the gods.

hmm. well i like to ramble lol

poasiods · Jun 08, 2008, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

For the first idea ignoring the Mists' role in rebirth, as far as I have noted, it is never said that the Mists actually give rebirth to things, it just creates things and is the center of the Guild Wars Universe (so to speak). So it does ignore that idea, but that idea is never proven.

Well, seeing things don't simply vanish into nothingness, we can also say that matter can't be created from nothing. My impression of the Mists is very much like that of a nebula. Seeing the Mists indeed do create beings, it must obtain its materials from somewhere - where using recycled spirits would be the most logical answer. Either that or we can say that the Mists obtain the materials from some other source (like nebula collecting dusts in space) and continuously pumps things into the GW world.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 08, 2008, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Like I said, I was just stating the three most likely possibilities (and only I can think of).

Scythe O F Glory · Jun 08, 2008, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Your theory makes sense. But when the mortal body dies, your soul goes the the Underworld, specifically the River of Souls. That river determines your final resting place. So when one's soul dies in the Rift, they never went through the River, meaning one of 2 things.
1. The soul disappears forever.
2. The soul stays in the place it was killed forever.

P.S. I read somwhere that River was corrupted by demons i think. Dont remember where.

Gmr Leon · Jun 08, 2008, 04:07 PM // 16:07

...What? Souls are usually assigned to their final resting place in the Underworld when they're judged by Grenth. Not by the River of Souls. Plus, the River is not corrupted, it's been dammed by demons, to allow them to collect souls for certain reasons that I cannot recall at the current moment of present.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 08, 2008, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Scythe, although you bring up something I didn't mention, the River of souls has nothing to do with what I was getting at really.

When creatures with souls die (as it is unknown if everything has souls), their spirit roams the world, waiting to move on. Sooner or later, an Envoy will come and take the spirit to their destination that was determined by Grenth (or in some cases, other gods). The Spirits can go to the River of souls, so the River of Souls is just simply one of the possible destinations.

Also it is VERY clear that the souls don't all go to the River. And, where did you get that the souls disappear forever because of the river? The corruption thing GmrLeon has answered. It was dammed, not corrupted. The reasons, was to eat the spirits.

Scythe, I think you should do your research, because the only things you got right in your post are:
1. The River of Souls is in the Underworld (more specifically the Realm of Torment, a sub-section of the Underworld). and
2. (Some) spirits go to the River of Souls. *the some you missed there

*

Edit: For my amusement, I wikied the page for the river of souls. I assume you went to the "Official Wiki," as the other says nothing about the destination of souls. Let me quote something from that page:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiki

Warning: Key elements of this terminology-related article are incomplete. You can help the Guild Wars Wiki by expanding it.

Know what that means? Thats right, its wrong

. I think the other wiki is more accurate, and in that one, it says nothing about destinations.

Scythe O F Glory · Jun 08, 2008, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

...What? Souls are usually assigned to their final resting place in the Underworld when they're judged by Grenth. Not by the River of Souls. Plus, the River is not corrupted, it's been dammed by demons, to allow them to collect souls for certain reasons that I cannot recall at the current moment of present.

wiki River of Souls. Grenth will only judge them after they die and determine where they go. And Azael, the River, i assume, is not only in the Realm of Torment. In order for spirits to be lead to their resting place, the river must run through other places like the Hall of Heroes. Also, an Envoy will take them not to their resting place, but to the Underworld where the River will take them from there.

Gmr Leon · Jun 08, 2008, 07:30 PM // 19:30

The wiki is not always right. There are many, many accounts of Grenth judging souls and then placing them in their final resting place. For your enlightenment I'll pursue this further.

This is from the quest dialogue you receive right as you enter the Underworld.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lost Soul

It's odd. I thought after you died, you were sent to the Hall of Judgment so that Grenth could choose your eternal fate. At first, I was relieved to find myself here instead, but... I don't want to be stuck here for eternity either.

And as the name says..This is quest dialogue from the Reaper at the Bone Pits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper of the Bone Pits

While I was trapped by the Terrorwebs, many souls which should not have been consigned to such a fate were cast down into the pit. Most have been lost forever, but a few remain who have not yet been driven to madness. I shall make it possible for them to escape the realm of torment. Do not allow these Released Spirits to be destroyed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper of the Bone Pits, Reward Dialogue

The Released Spirits have been sent to the Hall of Judgment, where Grenth shall select for them a fate befitting the measure of their mortal lives. You have served the God of Death well this day.

This is from the quest in the Forgotten Vale:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper of the Forgotten Vale

What destruction have the demons wrought during my imprisonment? Unable to respond to my Master's directives, I allowed many spirits to be sent to the wrong fate. Even now, new spirits are coming to my village. Spirits never meant for this place. Like so many of the dead, they will be hateful and full of malice. You must eliminate these Wrathful Spirits before they destroy those who have come to find their rightful resting place within the Forgotten Vale.

Whoever added the bit on the River of Souls leading souls to their final resting place is wrong. Dead wrong. The River of Souls is in the Realm of Torment, which can only be entered into on the mortal plane at the Mouth of Torment and in the Underworld at the Bone Pits.

Hope that helped and completely debunked that rubbish from the wiki.

Might Of The Archer · Jul 23, 2008, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Based on no actual research, I've come up with my own theory on this before.

I asked myself where spirits such as Pain, Bloodsong, Shadowsong, etc. come from and go to once defeated. I looked at it from this perspective - the profession which controls these spirits is the Ritualist, one who practices, by name, rituals. A ritual is a summoning, not a creation, therefore, it has to come from somewhere.

You know how there are gods, demi-gods, false gods, etc.? Perhaps, somewhere in the Mists there are powerful entities, not godly, but purely spiritual. Perhaps somehow linked to a God, but not part of the God itself. Each of the Gods has a domain, Grenth with the Underworld, Balthazar with the Fissure of Woe, Melandru with the Earth, Dwayna with the Rift (being the first God and the life-giver, spirits are born of the Rift, therefore perhaps that is Dwayna's place), and Lyssa with, well, inside everyone's heads, in a way.

Maybe somewhere in the Mists, each Spirit (Pain, Shadowsong, Bloodsong, etc.) has its own Grand Spirit. Not necessarily in the shape of the summoned spirit, but in its own form somehow. Perhaps they have their own small domain somewhere in the Mists, like a tiny, tiny Fissure of Woe that is akin to each spirit's qualities, and in that pocket of existence their Grand Spirit exists.

When the Ritualist uses a binding ritual to summon a spirit, he or she borrows from the power of that Grand Spirit and binds a physical entity from the power of the spirit. However, the exact amount of power of the physical entity depends on how powerful the Ritualist is, for the spirit cannot hold its grip in the "real world" forever, hence a time limit and health bar for the spirit. When the spirit dies, the energy from the spirit goes back to the Grand Spirit in its pocket in the Rift.

How are the Grand Spirits made, though? As Azazel's theory explains, when an entity goes to the third stage, the Afterlife, it joins the Mists. Perhaps very, very, very powerful entities (King Doric, Shiro, etc., I don't mean that those specific characters create the spirits, I mean that's the type of person that could, for the following reasons), people who have an extremely strong grip on existence, are the original creators of the Grand Spirit. For example, Doric, upon death, could create a Grand Spirit, and the type of spirit they create would be based on what happened in their lives. Doric was the first human to enter the Rift, and to make the big swirly portals that connect outposts and explorable areas, to be able to travel quickly. So, his spirit could be "Wanderlust", for example, breaking down the name. Wander and Lust, the love and need to travel.

However, if an extremely strong person could create the spirit, it would still be extremely weak. Obviously one person could not create that strong an entity. Other people who die, who have strong spirits, but obviously not quite as strong as the creator of the spirit, but who have also had similar experiences in their life as the original spirit, could add to the Grand Spirit - meaning that the Grand Spirit wouldn't be one person, or entity, it would be the combination of many spirits put together based on the original spirit that created it - so Doric would be the seed, and strong travelers who brave the wilderness could add to it. However, each spirit would still be unique, they would just all contribute theirself and their strength to the Grand Spirit in their pocket of the Rift.

So when the Ritualist summons a spirit, it calls upon this Grand spirit to bind a small amount of the pool of energy into the physical realm, the exact amount of strength of the spirit depending on the skill of the Ritualist, and the abilities of the spirit depending on the people who contributed to it.

Ranger rituals would have nothing to do with this, though, instead calling on the power of Melandru and the very force of nature itself to just change the conditions around him. Spirits created by nature rituals aren't actually "souls" like Ritualist spirits, just physical representations of the nature-force that governs the natural condition for which the spirit was summoned. (i.e. favorable winds, fertile seasons etc.)

This is my theory, however, keep in mind it's based on zero research. Just a fun way to think of it.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 23, 2008, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Might Of The Archer

-snip-

First, that is not a theory, that is a hypothesis. A theory has some basis, a hypothesis has little to none.

This quest actually helps explain where the spirits that Ritualists summon come from. Although not directly explained, it has spirits summoned with the names Anguish, Sorrow, and Regret, and those spirits are suffering from such things. It seems to me, that the spirits that are summoned are regular spirits, that are filled with a certain type of emotion (e.g. Pain, Anguish, etc). It seems to me that, the stronger a spirit is, the more emotion is stuck in them.

Now of course not all of the spirits have the emotion of the name, as Empowerment and the like are not emotions. But they have the intent to do what the spirit does, such as the intent to help, so they help in different ways.

In other words, the spirits that Ritualists summon are regular spirits that just take the form of those skills, as they are bound to where they are summoned (other spirits are not bound, so they have the shape of their physical form).

For Ranger spirits, I would agree with Might of the Archer. They are the "spirits of nature" so to speak, or representations of them.

Free Runner · Jul 23, 2008, 09:10 PM // 21:10

I figured it would be something along the lines of 3: the spirits becoming energy within The Mists. Although in Bleach when a huge amount of souls are destroyed the balance of the world is harmed.

Quote:

in FFX, when souls die they go to the (i forget the name of the place, but its similar to the Mists i think) and if they do not find purpose, they come back to the mortal realm as monsters and such. perhaps the same happens with guild wars, a destroyed soul becomes pure energy, loose in the world (that idea is from Inheritance) waiting to be put to use by the gods, as a life force in a newborn (thus going along the Mist -> Mortal Life -> etc. etc. -> Mist cycle), or in other acts of the gods.

Actually when a person dies they become Pyreflies. If they are left too long they gather and become fiends. The Farplane (i think thats what your talking about) is simply a gathering place unlike the Mists which is much more important to Tyria. Although i do see what your getting at - the spirits energy gathering in the Mists to create demons. Though The Mists seem almost "alive" so its all a mystery.

Freke · Jul 23, 2008, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Hall of Heroes:

In the center of the Rift, deep inside the Mists, stands the imposing walled fortress known across the multiverse as the Hall of Heroes. This structure is the pinnacle of the afterlife. When a hero dies, his spirit goes to one of two places: either it is buried with the deceased body, forever trapped inside the rotting flesh and rancid bones of the corpse, or it is released into the Rift. This latter honor goes to only those few whose deeds in life were legendary enough to be known across multiple worlds, and fewer still earn a place among the souls ensconced inside the Hall itself.

Spirits get trapped in their bodies for eternity.

When spririts die they probably dissapear forever.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 23, 2008, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freke

Hall of Heroes:

In the center of the Rift, deep inside the Mists, stands the imposing walled fortress known across the multiverse as the Hall of Heroes. This structure is the pinnacle of the afterlife. When a hero dies, his spirit goes to one of two places: either it is buried with the deceased body, forever trapped inside the rotting flesh and rancid bones of the corpse, or it is released into the Rift. This latter honor goes to only those few whose deeds in life were legendary enough to be known across multiple worlds, and fewer still earn a place among the souls ensconced inside the Hall itself.

Spirits get trapped in their bodies for eternity.

When spririts die they probably dissapear forever.

I personally think that was a trashed concept. Because it says that heroes are either trapped or sent to the Rift. We see many NPC ghosts in the Underworld and Realm of Torment that were not heroes. I think what it really meant, was not that the spirit is stuck in the body, but stuck on the world. Those would be "restless" ghosts. And, it would seem that when spirits die, it could be, as I stated in my OP...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel the Assassin

Possibility 2:
When a spirit is killed in the Rift, it disappears forever. Again this idea is inspired by past books and shows that I have read/seen. In those stories, the idea is that the body protects the soul, but once the soul is removed, they are very fragile and can "break" with the slightest touch. But, in some of those same stories, once the soul enters the spirit world, or afterlife, whatever term you wish to use, then the soul becomes "less-fragile" due to being around the same substance as the soul itself. Of course, being less fragile does not mean that it cannot still just disappear.

Possibility 3:
The final possibility, would be when the spirit dies in the Rift, the "spirit energy," as one can call it, is absorbed into the Rift, or sent back to the Mist.

BrettM · Aug 28, 2008, 07:34 PM // 19:34

A very stimulating set of ideas, Azazel. I would be interested in seeing your thesis extended to cover the additional aspect of the undead. It is clear that at least some of them have spirits locked or trapped inside their corpses. Palawa Joko, for example, is so thoroughly bound that the Elonians of Turai Ossa's time could find no way to release it and had to settle for imprisoning him. Both Joko and the Lich appear to have the ability to raise others as undead, somehow gaining control over their corpses and spirits, with the victim forced to do their bidding.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 28, 2008, 11:00 PM // 23:00

I just updated the op, added pictures, more info, went through the old stuff and edited.

Enter Version 2.0

Moonlit Azure · Aug 29, 2008, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

"Mostly evident by the Avatar of the gods (which mostly look like spirits, Lyssa and Kormir being the exception)"

I'm not understanding this part.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 29, 2008, 02:32 AM // 02:32

In order to get it, you need to read the sentince before it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myself

When under the order of the gods, it seems that spirits are allowed to travel between this stage and the next stage freely. Mostly evident by the Avatar of the gods (which mostly look like spirits, Lyssa and Kormir being the exception) and the Envoys (as they are the spirits of past criminals who have to shepherd the dead).