Curse

Darkside · Sep 17, 2008, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Fort Ranik - Pre-searing Ascalon

First thing I want to call attention too in the picture of Fort Ranik is how the main gate's architecture is obviously different then the rest of the fort. My only reasonable explanation is that the Fort was destroyed and rebuilt at a later time. Tho I'm not certain why the architecture is so different anyway...one would assume if they rebuilt the fort on the grounds of the old fort using some of its remains that the architecture would remain at least similar, yet in this case its very different.

The only reason I really took notice to Fort Ranik was because of the faces on the gate which seem to be absent from all the newer structures in Ascalon.

Faces on the gate of Fort Ranik - Pre-searing Ascalon

I looked around and managed to find similar faces on the Great Northern Wall itself.

Great Northern Wall - Post-searing Ascalon

It took me a while to find these smaller faces and at first I was starting to think that perhaps someone else has constructed some of the structures in Ascalon. The reason I had come to that conclusion was because the Faces like the ones on the Main gate of Fort Ranik can be found in Dwarf Tunnels. (I don't have any photos but I can get some if proof is needed).

It raises some interesting questions. Did the Dwarf's help with construction of the Great Wall or did Humans help the Dwarf's construct some of their tunnels? Or is this just a case of anet recycling graphics?

Great Northern Wall - Post-searing Ascalon

Yet another picture of the Great Northern Wall. I wanted to call attention to the bridge leading up to the gate which has a striking resemblance to the main gate of Fort Ranik. The Gate at the end of the bridge seems out of place as if in the middle of nowhere. Is it possible that this is part of an even older Great Northern Wall that was destroyed?

Anyway, my main question is how is it that the faces on the main gate of Fort Ranik and elsewhere in the ruins of Ascalon are also in Dungeons in the far Shiverpeaks? I'm assuming the dwarves constructed most of those Dungeons so why is it that a lot of the older architecture in Ascalon also have the same faces?

Nadasee · Sep 17, 2008, 11:41 AM // 11:41

The short answer would be that Anet liked the texture and it was useable as a decoration everywhere, on pillars, walls ect. (just a case of anet recycling graphix)
Just a decoration. As you see ALOT of the same different textures and icons all over Tyria.

As Humans spread over Tyria i guess they took after one and another in their living and arcitecture, same goes for other races mabye. So it spreads. If we want a In-Game answer.:P

It's fun to speculate about their construction however.

silavor · Sep 17, 2008, 11:58 AM // 11:58

Fort Ranik was indeed destroyed, during the Guild Wars. All that remains of the original structure is bits of the wall. Read the description right before you hit "Travel" the next time you go to Fort Ranik for the original text.

BrettM · Sep 17, 2008, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Perhaps the gate to Fort Ranik was originally a gate to the area around Melandru's Garden, while that place was still in use. There might not have been a fort or any kind of a structure there at all when the gate/drawbridge was built, but simply part of the grounds of a temple complex. Somehow I don't think the cave we used to find the place was the original entrance during its heyday.

The same faces are found on all the bridges in Ascalon, as well as the gates and walls of the Catacombs, all of which seem to be from a much earlier era than Ascalon City or Fort Ranik. Both of the latter look like newer construction to me, perhaps dating from the beginning of the troubles with the Charr. As the Charr began to put pressure on the northern areas, such as Drascir and Surmia, new fortifications were constructed south of the wall. Even Ascalon City has more of the appearance of a fort than an actual city, such as Rin or Drascir.

Konig Des Todes · Sep 17, 2008, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Nadasee is right that they reused the texture. Not sure if it was because they were lazy. As they also used textures from Cantha (I think it was Altrumn Ruins, might be wrong).

Also, the ones who made (some) dungeons were not dwarves. The four in the Charr Homelands were probably either made by the charr, or naturally created. The ones in the Asura homeland each have their own story (Oola's Lab presumably made by Oola, Arachni's Haunt is natural, Shards of Orr was made by Orrian/Corsairs, Slaver's Exile was made by Stone Summit, Vlox's Excavations has unknown creators). And the one in the Far Shiverpeaks also have multipe origins, from created naturally (Frostmaw's Burrow), to by the Great Dwarf (Sepulcher of Draggrimar, theory), to by Dwarfs (Heart of the Shiverpeaks, also natural formation), to unknown (Raven's Point).

None were made by Ascalonians, as none were near any location where the Ascalonians extended to. The dungeons that are artificial are made by a currently unknown race (suspects range from the Forgotten, to Asura, to Seers, to human explorers). Any one of them could have gotten ideas from Ascalon, or Ascalonians could have gotten the architecture ideas from the dungeons (it would have to be random explorers if that is the case)

draxynnic · Sep 18, 2008, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkside

Yet another picture of the Great Northern Wall. I wanted to call attention to the bridge leading up to the gate which has a striking resemblance to the main gate of Fort Ranik. The Gate at the end of the bridge seems out of place as if in the middle of nowhere. Is it possible that this is part of an even older Great Northern Wall that was destroyed?

I'd have to have a closer look at the area, but the bridge at the Breach is surrounded by walls - presumably a bridge-fort that just happens to be attached to the Wall. Ironically, the bridge itself still seems to be secured by the fort (if not for the fort being occupied by the Charr) - it's just that the lowering of the river, and possibly the destruction of any portcullis or the like that may have previously prevented entry by the river, allows entry along the riverbed.

The one you've shown is the bridge you run across at the end of the Great Northern Wall mission, right?

Darkside · Sep 19, 2008, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Also, the ones who made (some) dungeons were not dwarves. The four in the Charr Homelands were probably either made by the charr, or naturally created. The ones in the Asura homeland each have their own story (Oola's Lab presumably made by Oola, Arachni's Haunt is natural, Shards of Orr was made by Orrian/Corsairs, Slaver's Exile was made by Stone Summit, Vlox's Excavations has unknown creators). And the one in the Far Shiverpeaks also have multipe origins, from created naturally (Frostmaw's Burrow), to by the Great Dwarf (Sepulcher of Draggrimar, theory), to by Dwarfs (Heart of the Shiverpeaks, also natural formation), to unknown (Raven's Point).

None were made by Ascalonians, as none were near any location where the Ascalonians extended to. The dungeons that are artificial are made by a currently unknown race (suspects range from the Forgotten, to Asura, to Seers, to human explorers). Any one of them could have gotten ideas from Ascalon, or Ascalonians could have gotten the architecture ideas from the dungeons (it would have to be random explorers if that is the case)

I should have been a little more specific with my dungeon choices. I know the dwarves didn't create ALL the dungeons I was probably just thinking mostly about Dwarven tunnels in the beginning quest to get to the eye of the north (where there is a lot of the same architecture seen in Ascalon as well). The dungeon I was thinking of was the bloodstone cavern from Finding Gadd where there is also an archway like the main gate of fort Ranik. This archway is I believe the gateway to the third level.

Quote:

I'd have to have a closer look at the area, but the bridge at the Breach is surrounded by walls - presumably a bridge-fort that just happens to be attached to the Wall. Ironically, the bridge itself still seems to be secured by the fort (if not for the fort being occupied by the Charr) - it's just that the lowering of the river, and possibly the destruction of any portcullis or the like that may have previously prevented entry by the river, allows entry along the riverbed.

The one you've shown is the bridge you run across at the end of the Great Northern Wall mission, right?

Yes that is the same bridge...I believe I entered that mission to take that screen shot actually.

Konig Des Todes · Sep 19, 2008, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Oh, I know you didn't mean all the dungeons. I just pointed that out for people who don't have Eye of the North and wonder in here, or for those who haven't gone in most dungeons.

But like I said, little to no dungeons were made by the Dwarves. There is no implication that the first one we go to, where we meet Odgen and Vekk, was made by Dwarves, just as there is no source for who made the Bloodstone Caves, or any other for that matter.

Only dungeon that might have been built by the dwarves, with some proof, would be Heart of the Shiverpeaks. But that's a might and not proven.

Basically, either the it's Charr, Natural, or Unknown for the most part. That is what I was getting at with my first post. I suppose I should have summarized into that sentence.

Darkside · Sep 19, 2008, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Oh, I know you didn't mean all the dungeons. I just pointed that out for people who don't have Eye of the North and wonder in here, or for those who haven't gone in most dungeons.

But like I said, little to no dungeons were made by the Dwarves. There is no implication that the first one we go to, where we meet Odgen and Vekk, was made by Dwarves, just as there is no source for who made the Bloodstone Caves, or any other for that matter.

Only dungeon that might have been built by the dwarves, with some proof, would be Heart of the Shiverpeaks. But that's a might and not proven.

Basically, either the it's Charr, Natural, or Unknown for the most part. That is what I was getting at with my first post. I suppose I should have summarized into that sentence.

Well it does say during the dialogue that the destroyers have captured the Dwarven and Asuran Tunnels. So I was thinking that the area where you first encounter vekk and Ogden was a Dwarven build area...but yah who knows for sure...not me or I wouldn't have posted this thread heh.

BrettM · Sep 19, 2008, 02:36 PM // 14:36

The problem I have is that the tunnels below LA/Kaineng/Kamadan have a prominent shrine to Melandru and large statues of human figures. I can't see either the dwarves or the Asura decorating their tunnels that way. For one thing, none of the non-human races appear to worship the Five Gods, so why would they build a shrine to Melandru?

Konig Des Todes · Sep 19, 2008, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Actually, BrettM, the Dwarves, Naga, Forgotten, and Grawl do worship the True Gods (remember, there are 6 now, not 5, Five Gods is inaccurate

). For the Dwarves, it seems that they just add another god to the pantheon, and worship that god as their patron gods, but still follow the other gods (in THK, Jalis says "Grenth's left hand comes for us"), although, that's still just a theory, they do at least acknowledge the True Gods. The Forgotten, obviously, work for the True Gods. The Naga has a boss name with Dwayna in it (Acolyte of Dwayna iirc, probably wrong) and the Grawl seem to congregate near the Gods' Statues (Melandru, Lyssa, and Grenth are the ones I can recall atm), and we even know about the heretic Grawl in Regent Valley, which fight other Grawls who march to the statue of Melandru.

The Asura, and the Charr, acknowledge the True Gods *the Charr even say Melandru is the one who created them*. The Asura only knowing about them when they reach the surface though.

The Centaur, Tengu, Harpy, Heket, and Norn's stances on the True Gods are unknown at the moment though. They probably acknowledge them, but not worship them (Norn definably don't worship the True Gods, but there is no indication of them not acknowledging their existence).

That said, I don't think that first tunnel is Dwarven or Asura, as the Asura wouldn't have a statue of any of the True Gods, and the Dwarven wouldn't have a gold statue of Melandru, a Balthazar Mural, and a Mural of Dwayna, Melandru, and Balthazar with Doric.

I'd say, whoever built those tunnels, worshiped Melandru as their patron god, but had those murals (and probably more, as we pass several closed doors running to the gate) as saying that they still worship the other True Gods *and, in turn, won't pull a Margonite (worshipping one god and desecrating the other gods' statues).

@Darkside: I think that, by Dwarven and Asuran Tunnels, it is meant tunnels that, before the Destroyers, were under Dwarven and Asuran control. Not that they made those tunnels.

Gmr Leon · Sep 20, 2008, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Actually, BrettM, the Dwarves, Naga, Forgotten, and Grawl do worship the True Gods (remember, there are 6 now, not 5, Five Gods is inaccurate

).

Alright..About to lash out at this and then..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel the Assassin

For the Dwarves, it seems that they just add another god to the pantheon, and worship that god as their patron gods, but still follow the other gods (in THK, Jalis says "Grenth's left hand comes for us"), although, that's still just a theory, they do at least acknowledge the True Gods.

You clarify! Good! Main point, they acknowledge them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel the Assassin

The Naga has a boss name with Dwayna in it (Acolyte of Dwayna iirc, probably wrong) and the Grawl seem to congregate near the Gods' Statues (Melandru, Lyssa, and Grenth are the ones I can recall atm), and we even know about the heretic Grawl in Regent Valley, which fight other Grawls who march to the statue of Melandru.

I'm not sure if that's a strong enough point to support the Naga worshiping the Gods, but it doesn't seem too crazy when we know the Grawl show some sign of respect towards the Gods.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel the Assassin

The Asura, and the Charr, acknowledge the True Gods *the Charr even say Melandru is the one who created them*. The Asura only knowing about them when they reach the surface though.

ERROR. The Charr do not say that Melandru is the one who created them, rather they acknowledge the fact that Melandru made the earth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ecology of the Charr

They knew of Melandru, and even had legends that described how she created the world.

Anyway, just wanted to get that out there before something spins about Melandru creating Charr, which isn't what occurred.

BrettM · Sep 20, 2008, 04:10 PM // 16:10

I would not deny that many, if not all, of the other races acknowledge the existence of the gods of Tyria. I'm just not sure that any of the non-human races actually worship them.

The grawl do seem to congregate near the statue in King's Watch, so perhaps they are an exception.

The dwarves may also be an exception. Though they give their main loyalty to the Great Dwarf, it's hard to credit the statues in the Shiverpeaks to human efforts, since there is no sign that humans ever populated those areas. Who built the statue of Lyssa in Mineral Springs if not the dwarves? It seems unlikely that the Avicara made it, and there is dwarven construction (homes, bridges, roads) in Mineral Springs. The Temple of Grenth in Lornar Pass and the statue of Dwayna in Dreadnaught's Drift also seem unlikely to be human work.

OTOH, perhaps there was a closer relationship between humans and Deldrimor dwarves in the past, prior to the Guild Wars and the rise of the Stone Summit, and perhaps there were groups of humans in the Shiverpeaks at that time. The "old treaties" were mentioned when we first met King Ironhammer. Just how old were they?

Operative 14 · Sep 20, 2008, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Perhaps the ancient race that built the Eye is responsible for some of the more miscellaneous structures in the land?

Konig Des Todes · Sep 20, 2008, 10:08 PM // 22:08

I would agree with Operative 14, and my hunch on who those creators are is the Seers. But I have no support... just a hunch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

ERROR. The Charr do not say that Melandru is the one who created them, rather they acknowledge the fact that Melandru made the earth.

Anyway, just wanted to get that out there before something spins about Melandru creating Charr, which isn't what occurred.

I'm sorry, should have said "iirc." Not everyone can remember everything clearly, and have time/patience to look it up to confirm.