Curse

DarkNecrid · Nov 04, 2008, 05:41 PM // 17:41

I'm posting this for posterity, since it is on a wiki talk page and bound to be archived (and thus hard to find) soon, I asked Linsey about the Alchemy Circle icon that is found everywhere (on their site, on the complete collection case, etc.) and it's meaning and this was her reply:

Quote:

I just talked with Jeff Grubb about this and I finally have an answer for you.
This symbol is not related to the Asura as it predates them. It's metaphysical in nature and may even be a map to the Mists developed by Lord Odran. - Image:User Linsey Murdock sig.jpgLinsey talk 21:24, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Interesting things to note from this:
-It "predates" the Asura, which means (by Grubbs wording, anyways) that if the rumor on Lord Odran is true, means that the Asura either evolved from another species, came to Tyria from another means of transportation (possibly using one of Odran's portals on another world?), or were created from some higher power.
-If it's a map to the mists, it may be designed in some wizard writing, using symbols that common man can not understand.
-Why would Lord Odran need a map to the mists, if he already knew the way to them?
-Metaphysical in nature is something the Asura quite enjoy, their beliefs are indeed similar to alchemic beliefs in a few ways, the Ausra could have been made in some way related to something that Odran did.
-No mention of this by Linsey, but it's safe to assume that since his portal hiding magic was ruined and the greed of man overtook his portals etc, that this Alchemic Circle figure is a common symbol that most people on Tyria would understand, probably as well known as our Star of David, or the Cross.

Karuro · Nov 04, 2008, 05:59 PM // 17:59

If the alchemy circle is indeed a "Map of the Mists", we can apply the logic of the Realm of Torment to this.

Something I remember reading a long time ago was about how humans somehow cannot comprehend the layout of the Realm of Torment, and thus use the "world map" we see in the RoT:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Image...of_Torment.jpg

See where I'm getting at?

So far I got two Alchemy circles. The one from prophecies (Light colored version) and the Nightfall version

Konig Des Todes · Nov 04, 2008, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

-It "predates" the Asura, which means (by Grubbs wording, anyways) that if the rumor on Lord Odran is true, means that the Asura either evolved from another species, came to Tyria from another means of transportation (possibly using one of Odran's portals on another world?), or were created from some higher power.

Or, more simply, is that the Asura are younger then 200 years old.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

-Why would Lord Odran need a map to the mists, if he already knew the way to them?

He explored the mists, he knew the way to them, he didn't know them in of itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

-No mention of this by Linsey, but it's safe to assume that since his portal hiding magic was ruined and the greed of man overtook his portals etc, that this Alchemic Circle figure is a common symbol that most people on Tyria would understand, probably as well known as our Star of David, or the Cross.

Not necessarily. The common symbol known like the Staf of David of the Cross would actually be the Eye of Janthir that is seen in Divinity Coast, Temple of Balthazar in The Falls, Temple of Grenth in Lonar's Pass, the Hall of Grenth in the Underworld, and in some EN dungeons.

My question is, did Odran make this, or did Odran use this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karuro

If the alchemy circle is indeed a "Map of the Mists", we can apply the logic of the Realm of Torment to this.

Something I remember reading a long time ago was about how humans somehow cannot comprehend the layout of the Realm of Torment, and thus use the "world map" we see in the RoT:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Image...of_Torment.jpg

See where I'm getting at?

Right here I would like to point to my Hypothesis on the RiftWhere I stated that the Realm of Torment was split up and separated from the rest of the Rift - which contains all of the Realms of the Gods and the Hall of Heroes - in order to complete the prison-like state of the Realm of Torment. In my hypothesis, the reason why humans cannot comprehend the shape of the Realm of Torment would be because of this, and because of the madness caused to and by Abaddon.

Also, I would have to think that the Alchemy Circle is a map of the Mists, not the Rift, and doesn't map out the "realms" (whether of the gods, or of worlds), but their locations in the Mists. Which that concept can go rather well with the Nightfall version, not so much the Prophecies one though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karuro

So far I got two Alchemy circles. The one from prophecies (Light colored version) and the Nightfall version

Something on the light map. I see the Scepter of Orr at the bottom, in the 4th to left circle on the edge.

Also, think you can point me to a bigger picture of the Nightfall one? I would think that is the most "up to date" version and would like to look at it more thoroughly.

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

I've always wondered what the purpose of the Alchemy Circle was. Looking at the various boxes and products it would appear there are only two versions.

The first version (Prophecies and Factions, as shown by Karuro) has writing on it that can be mostly made out - "The World Of Tyria" (Left Side through unsure if that says Tyria) and "Warrior" (Top right).Theres also "Mors" though its tough to read it. Are there any clearer pictures of the Proph/Factions Alchemy Circle with the words clearer?

The second more detailed circle has runes that look like the ones found on teleporters though i'll have to grab a screen to compare.

On the light version, I can make out the names of all 6 core professions, Warrior, Monk (not talking about "Mors"), Necromancer *hardest to read - right side from Monk), Mesmer (bottom left on a line), Ranger (bottom center), and Elementalist (second hardest to read, between Warrior and Monk).

As for the second, I agree that the runes look similar, hence why I wanted a bigger picture (as I am not sure were Karuro got such a clear version). I know it's on the Nightfall box, but that's blocked on my CE version and I can't find a clear version.

Although they look more like the runes/markings that are on the sails of some Kournan ships.

I wonder, anyone else get the feeling that "Mors" was a name for another world/dimension within the Mists? You got Tyria, the on the other side of that same part, you got Mors.

I need some printed out versions of these.

After looking at these again, and looking at the black version of the original that Karuro posted on GWO, I think that the original is a small part of the newer, bigger, one. Possibly the circle at the bottom center of the Nightfall version is the original one. Hard to tell with the sizes.

Free Runner · Nov 04, 2008, 07:09 PM // 19:09

I've always wondered what the purpose of the Alchemy Circle was. Looking at the various boxes and products it would appear there are only two versions.

The first version (Prophecies and Factions, as shown by Karuro) has writing on it that can be mostly made out - "The World Of Tyria" (Left Side through unsure if that says Tyria) and "Warrior" (Top right).Theres also "Mors" though its tough to read it. Are there any clearer pictures of the Proph/Factions Alchemy Circle with the words clearer?

EDIT: On looking closely it appears to have all the professions listed on certain lines.

The second more detailed circle has runes that look like the ones found on teleporters though i'll have to grab a screen to compare.

DarkNecrid · Nov 04, 2008, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

He explored the mists, he knew the way to them, he didn't know them in of itself.

Ah, I see. I took to as in "the way towards" not to as in "a map of". It could mean either really, someone else might want to ask on her talk page (getting ready to goooo).

Quote:

My question is, did Odran make this, or did Odran use this?

Well it says developed by, but it's just a Tyrian "rumor".

Quote:

Or, more simply, is that the Asura are younger then 200 years old.

She updated this:

Quote:

I'm saying that the Asura hadn't arrived on the scene yet for the Great Alchemy to be known in lore at that point. So the symbols are a part of lore that is unrelated to the Asura. I don't know what the Asura think of Lord Odran, but he is certainly a legendary figure having been the first to gain entry into the Mists. - Image:User Linsey Murdock sig.jpgLinsey talk 19:11, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Konig Des Todes · Nov 04, 2008, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Thank you for that update that she posted Dark Necrid.

Also, I noted on the old one a word outside the circle that I cannot make out, I'm tempted to say "Zero" or "Toro" or something of the like.

Anyways, I got to go to class soon, and then voting, yay. So I'll be back in about 2 hours to look at this some more. -tempted to just skip class today-

Karuro · Nov 04, 2008, 07:49 PM // 19:49

I found the alchemy symbols while googlin'. They're from the official site (Besides the Light-version, which seems to be just an invert to see things clearer. Found it in a GWO thread).
Doubt there are bigger versions atm (Aside from Arenanet HQ).

Free Runner · Nov 04, 2008, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Slightly (very slightly) bigger but still not an improvement.

And here is all the writing:

BrettM · Nov 04, 2008, 08:22 PM // 20:22

"Pre-dating" the Asura could simply mean that the Circle was known to humans before they had met the Asura. It doesn't have to mean it existed before their race came into existance.

Konig Des Todes · Nov 04, 2008, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Karuro uploaded the Nightfall one onto his website so I think that link is the biggest we can get, which is a good size bigger:

http://www.anime-envoy.com/~other/gw...lchemy-big.jpg

Time for me to print these two out and look closely without hurting my eyes on the computer screen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettM

"Pre-dating" the Asura could simply mean that the Circle was known to humans before they had met the Asura. It doesn't have to mean it existed before their race came into existance.

This was answered by linsey what it meant, look at DarkNecrid's second post (#5). It means that the concept of the Alchemy Circle was made before the concept of the Asura were.

Edit: Free Runner, the bottom is defiantly not Loro, as it would be an upside down L, therefore would end up being oroL. But I would assume that no writings are upside down as nothing we can translate is (closest is on it's side: Elementalist). The first letter of that word would have to be I, T, Z, or a Tyrian letter. I'm going to go dig through the gw.dat thread to find that alphabet. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the wordings is in Tyrian.

Karuro · Nov 04, 2008, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Really, Azazel-kun~
You should fix those broken-linking habits of yours :P

http://www.anime-envoy.com/~other/gw...lchemy-big.jpg

Konig Des Todes · Nov 04, 2008, 11:15 PM // 23:15

I copy pasted from GWO

Whatever. My day is bad in terms of linking stuff. xD Also... kun? O.o I'm not japanese, and neither are you!

Edit: . . . the link put in the ... shortening -____________________________-

Edit2:
Well now I got 5 copies of the original Circle printed out, my german music playing loud, and plenty of pencils. Time to doodle and figure stuff out.

Also, for the Nightfall one, I noticed a sun-like figure and a planet-like figure on the left side.

Karuro · Nov 04, 2008, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

I copy pasted from GWO

Whatever. My day is bad in terms of linking stuff. xD Also... kun? O.o I'm not japanese, and neither are you!

Edit: . . . the link put in the ... shortening -____________________________-

It's a habit that sticks with you when you hang around with 'em for years :P
To get back tot he whole "Mapping thing", I was thinking that certain spots represent the pantheon their realms. However, with the classes worked in, I'm not too sure about that.

Free Runner · Nov 04, 2008, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Edit: Free Runner, the bottom is defiantly not Loro, as it would be an upside down L, therefore would end up being oroL. But I would assume that no writings are upside down as nothing we can translate is (closest is on it's side: Elementalist). The first letter of that word would have to be I, T, Z, or a Tyrian letter. I'm going to go dig through the gw.dat thread to find that alphabet. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the wordings is in Tyrian.

The letters are a copy + paste. For instance all the T's look the same - so the first letter isnt a T. I guessed L (which is why i placed a question mark next to it) due to the messy way the letters are laid out I doubt its Tyrian Alphebet as everything else appears normal.

Anyway after checking the runes on one of the teleporters and the runes found on the torment pillers, none match with anything found on the Nightfall Circle. The strange markings on the Realm of Torment map dont seem to compare ether but i've not finished there.

Something i was interested in was the layout of the professions in the Tyrian Circle. Warrior (the profession which uses very little magic) is the furthest away from the center with the spellcasters being closer. The Ranger one seems to be hanging in the middle. Also each profession has its own circle barring the Mesmer (there is a circle near it but the mesmer seems to be rather lonely). I would like to know what the writing directly below the Ranger one is....but its much too small.

Daisuko · Nov 05, 2008, 12:20 AM // 00:20

This reminds me, I think the portal in the ice imp cave (Icy dragon sword cave) is one of lord odran's portals.

Konig Des Todes · Nov 05, 2008, 12:28 AM // 00:28

That isn't sure to be a portal actually Daisuko. Although it can be, there is nothing to support it to be other than being a "dangerous place."

I am rather sure that whatever found out with the Alchemy Circle will either support or debunk things I said in my Odran Thread and my Rift Thread. More so the later.

I got a few theories going on with this Circle, but nothing really worth putting up yet. I'll just put it all up together in a scanned image of my doodles...

Gmr Leon · Nov 05, 2008, 12:30 AM // 00:30

The Nightfall one almost appears to me as though a sketching of temporal distortions, due to the circle near the middle and the lower right.

Konig Des Todes · Nov 05, 2008, 12:46 AM // 00:46

I somewhat agree with Leon on the distortions with the Nightfall one.

I think it is an attempt to map the Realm of Torment. The realm is currently shattered landmasses, if you look at the edges of each circle, you can see that, if resized, they can be connected with the same pattern, a little reorganizing would be needed on the left side (as what is on the outer part would go inside). I'll try to make a Paint job of what I mean (as pencil doesn't show up well on the print out of that I have).

Could also be a map of the Rift as a whole, with the broken edges being where the Realm of Torment is/should be.

Also, the Nightfall one doesn't even have a real "center" which is where the Rift would be, if it were to be a map of the Mists. And it's not so much of a "circle" with how it is now.

I am currently looking to see if any of the symbols on the Nightfall Alchemy Circle has repeating runes (i.e., runes on the left side that repeat on the right side, in the same order).

Edit: This would be a lot easier if I had some sort of reference. But I'm slowly getting things.

For instance, the symbol in the center of the Prophecies Alchemy Circle, is also seen two other places. Just above what is believed to say "The World of Tyria" (at about a 45 degree angle from how it is in the center) and at the bottom right area of the left half of the Nightfall alchemy Circle.

Through this, I have reason to believe that the Prophecies Alchemy Circle was charted with having Tyria in the center, with that symbol representing Tyria.
__________________________________________________ _______________
Edit2: Also found that symbol next to "Mors" so I'm not sure on what I said anymore.
__________________________________________________ _______________

On top of that, I believe that the four edges of the Prophecies Circle are they keys for translating the Alchemy Circle, or was intended to be. With a symbol with the shape of the Scepter of Orr/Staff of the Mists in the fourth to the left-most circle and in the biggest triangle with a circle in it to the right of the same quarter key.

Also note that the star-like shape just above "Warrior" in the Prophecies Alchemy Circle is also in the Nightfall Circle, in the upper center of the design, there is a line of runes, the star is at the top.

Not sure if I mentioned this, but I believe that the upside down triangle on the rightmost part of the circle of the Prophecies Alchemy Circle is the Eye of Janthir.

Edit3:
Here is my most latest doodle. Maybe someone can use this for thoughts.

Konig Des Todes · Nov 05, 2008, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Something I realized. It has been noticed that the two Alchemy Circles that we have are not similar except for two symbols which are in both. No other similarity really.

But there is something we didn't think of earlier. There are in fact three Alchemy Circles, one we overlooked, that Free Runner even mentioned.

The Realm of Torment map.

It is in the same format as the other two Alchemy Circles, but is also different, as different as the other two are from each other.

I believe that this Alchemy Circle is a map of the Mists, like Linsey said. But that this Alchemy Circle is a map of the Rift (going off of my Rift theory - sorry I keep bringing this back, but it's highly relevant as I think this hypothesis might actually be proven right with this - this would make sense as I said above). And then this Alchemy Circle is a map of the Realm of Torment alone.

In other words, the name for a map of non-Tyrian lands is called an "Alchemy Circle." The first one, from Prophecies, was made by Odran, possibly all of them were, but that one for sure was. It is incomplete and has Tyria as the center, the only place he knew Tyria would fit with a new map. This map also just has worlds and realms as simple symbols. At the bottom, the five circles - one of which I thought was the Scepter of Orr - are symbols of the Gods. Five Gods (as known by Odran at the time) Five Symbols, each symbol connected to each other by smaller symbols. I'm not sure what those smaller symbols represent as they are too small at the moment.

The next one, from Nightfall, is just a map of the Rift. The symbol I believe represents Tyria (shown in the notes above) is in this map, representing where in the Rift the portal to Tyria is. Because of the Realm of Torment's state, the Rift itself is chaotic and is hard to map, but can still be changed into a full circle. I have noticed that by resizing and rearranging some of the outer part of the circle, it can be returned to an almost full circle. I have yet to get to this, but I plan to.

The Realm of Torment one is one circle with multiple circles near it. This could have been done by the God's way of locking Abaddon up, by separating the realm itself, as I theorized in my aforementioned thread. There is no symbol to Tyria because Odran never made a portal directly to the Realm of Torment, therefore never needed a symbol.

If you notice the outer part of the big circle (which would contain the Vortex, Gate of Torment, Abaddon's Gate, and the Domain of Anguish - the three areas that were not separated from the original realm along with the newly created portal) it is designed similarly to two parts of the circle of the Prophecies Alchemy Circle.

Free Runner · Nov 05, 2008, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daisuko

This reminds me, I think the portal in the ice imp cave (Icy dragon sword cave) is one of lord odran's portals.

Theres no portal in the Lyssa Cave. The two objects that hum are overturned beacons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

But there is something we didn't think of earlier. There are in fact three Alchemy Circles, one we overlooked, that Free Runner even mentioned.

We didnt forget it. Karuro first made a direct mention of it in his first post. But we cant understand the Realm of Torment one without first understanding the Tyrian and Elonian one (i'm gonna nickname the Prophecies/Factions one the "Tyrian Circle" and the Nightfall one "Elonian Circle" for better refference, before people start to get mixed up with the Eternal Alchemy)

On a side note, the "light" version is missing alot of lines. There is a huge Triangle missing (can partly be seen) aswell as a couple of lines and circles. I'm gonna attempt to hunt down the First version.

EDIT: Okay heres the actual version:

This is the version found on the boxes and site. Its missing the bottom half but we already know whats there, from the light version. The difference between this one and the light one is that this one has two circles - one within the other. The outer one is missing some of its profession markers aswell. From this i believe the Light Version is the circle within the larger circle.

And after looking at the Elonian one further i can say the runes do not repeat. Some do look he same but each one appears to be unique.

A little off and on topic - while searching i found myself on the Korean Guild Wars site......they have a small animated golden Alchemy Circle (Prophecies) with glittering lights moving along the lines

Its put the Circles found on the Euro and American sites to shame.