Curse

a-kyle · Dec 14, 2008, 08:27 PM // 20:27

This may seem stupid. but there is more too this then what I make it seem. First let me start off with the people and places i want to discuss.

- Balthazar
- Menzies
- FoW

Balthazar

This is what I could dig up about him and his origins:

Quote:

Balthazar is the god of war and fire, and Patron god of Warriors, Pyromancers, Protection and Smiting Monks, and Command and Spear Paragons.

and

Quote:

Beyond the land of Tyria, Balthazar is engaged in an eternal struggle with his half-brother Menzies over control of the Fissure of Woe. It is not known who their parents are or if the other gods are related.

I am assuimg he is a warrior because of the:

Quote:

Then did Balthazar, god of war and fire, appear to the soldiers, carrying with him a grand sword that did glow with such brilliance it blinded any who looked upon it.

I could be wrong though. So that is what We know from my research of Balthazar.

I am wondering who the father is (i know its kinda dumb, bUt i like to get to the root of these things).

His brother dosent have much detail about him, other then:

Quote:

Menzies is the Lord of Destruction; a malicious dark entity opposing Balthazar and bent on taking control of the Fissure of Woe. He employs an army of darkness called the Shadow Army. In an ironic twist inspired by Greek Mythology, he is also Balthazar's half-brother. It is unclear if Menzies is himself a full-fledged god or some lesser entity.

I am assuming that his mother may have been mortal, my throy is only partly supported by the fact that the lore states as follows " It is unclear if Menzies is himself a full-fledged god or some lesser entity." if this can be proven please point me in the direction of the truth. I am wondering if there is a "Family tree" of sorts for the gods, lesser gods and what not of this game.

Now it has been stated that theyare in an eternal struggle to see to which can controll FoW (I honestly thought that FoW was a type of armour.....

).

What we know about FoW before it goes into Game play detail:

Quote:

The Fissure of Woe (commonly abbreviated as FoW) is one of the Realms of the Gods. It is the domain of Balthazar, God of War. There his Eternal warriors are in constant struggle with the Shadow Army of Menzies, Lord of Destruction. It is a very inhospitable place.

Now for the questions....

How was Fow created, who created it. why are Balthazar and Menzies fighting over it, whats the story behind how both gods (in Menzies case, "lesser God") came about, if there half brothers whos the father and or mothers, is one of them a mortal? how did they get there armys?

I really want to focus on how the gods came about, how fow was created but filling in the missing peices is also fun. Sorry if this is blindly posted some where else, or if i am braking some huge rule...But I just wanted to know. Anet (unlike some games *cough*Wow*cough* ) dosent seem to big on Lore.

Free Runner · Dec 14, 2008, 09:02 PM // 21:02

First of all gods dont actually have professions. They have characteristics of certain professions but they are a special case.

Balthazar and Menzies are half brothers. And thats as far as we get in terms of Balthazars family. Its known that both Grenth and Abbadon were not the first of their kind - Before Grenth there was Dhuum and before Abbadon there was an unnamed god. So there were some gods before the originals.

Perhaps Balthazar was a simple mortal (or another race) that overthrew a previous god of war. With that Menzies could of simply been his half brother who was jealous of his brothers new status as a god. Note thats the unlikely theory.

Ether way, Balthazars origins are never touched upon at all. And they wont be until at least GW2. Its not Anet being lazy on their lore - its stopping the chain before it can be born. Once we found out about Balthazars father we would ask where the father came from. And so on and so on.

As for the Fissure of Woe its presumed (If Balth was indeed the first god of war) that it was created by Balthazar. Menzies is just the intruder who has managed to invade the realm.

(off Topic here but: Does this forum section even have Thread Moderation before allowing a thread to appear? i posted a Wintersday lore thread 5-6 hours ago and its yet to appear...despite 2 other threads making it through

)

Konig Des Todes · Dec 14, 2008, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by a-kyle

I am assuming that his mother may have been mortal, my throy is only partly supported by the fact that the lore states as follows " It is unclear if Menzies is himself a full-fledged god or some lesser entity." if this can be proven please point me in the direction of the truth. I am wondering if there is a "Family tree" of sorts for the gods, lesser gods and what not of this game.

This idea is going off of greek mythology where-as gods do not "die" but have many kids - most are demi-gods (like Menzies). This in fact could be where Menzies' powers originated from in terms of content, however it is safer to assume the godly status of the two went something more like:

1) Balthazar and Menzies fight together against a god
2) Balthazar "kormired" Menzies after the god's defeat
3) Menzies either a) killed a weaker god and took its place, b) was originally part of a non-aging race *as was balthy*, or c) is now a spirit.
4a) Menzies, through greed, is now trying to take Balthazar's power. Leads to current day events
4b) Menzies, through jealousy, wants the power for himself. Leads to today.
4c) Menzies, through hatred and jealousy, wants the power for his no longer fleshy being.

Quote:

Now it has been stated that theyare in an eternal struggle to see to which can controll FoW (I honestly thought that FoW was a type of armour.....

).

Obsidian armor is commonly called FoW armor.

Quote:

How was Fow created, who created it. why are Balthazar and Menzies fighting over it, whats the story behind how both gods (in Menzies case, "lesser God") came about, if there half brothers whos the father and or mothers, is one of them a mortal? how did they get there armys?

I really want to focus on how the gods came about, how fow was created but filling in the missing peices is also fun. Sorry if this is blindly posted some where else, or if i am braking some huge rule...But I just wanted to know. Anet (unlike some games *cough*Wow*cough* ) dosent seem to big on Lore.

The Fissure of Woe is surmised to be created by good ol' balthy, however it is possible a previous god of war - in fact likely - created it. I theorize that, like the Realm of Torment, the Underworld, Hall of Heroes, and the Great Forge, it is a part of the rift.

I have a feeling, that is a certain Ancient Dragons theory is correct *that is, they were once ancient gods* that we shall see where the rest of the gods came from.

And Anet is very big on lore. They just avoid non-Tyrian lore because, well, we don't have access to much non-Tyrian locations. It is true they have kept very secretive on Dhuum and Menzies, but aside from "so ancient it's forgotten" lore that is all they don't touch up on.

Feel free to do more research on the origins of the gods, but I don't think you'll get very far.

Also, I think you could have gone a little more in depth in your own research, but you went deep enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

(off Topic here but: Does this forum section even have Thread Moderation before allowing a thread to appear? i posted a Wintersday lore thread 5-6 hours ago and its yet to appear...despite 2 other threads making it through

)

Yes, it is this inactive guy. He has to approve the thread when he gets back on. That is why I'm saying there needs to be a new lore moderator, just for the activity of the forums as a whole, if not the lore forum. Also, the threads needing moderation depends on the length in characters. So it seems this one was just under the limitations.

a-kyle · Dec 14, 2008, 11:04 PM // 23:04

I understand that this thread will Most likly be locked and I will be banned from this section for braking some unspoken rule that i should have been fully aware of but chose to neglect it. But i am here to do the research needed to answer my questions based on the characters/gods or locations chozen.

Back to the topic.

How did these gods and demi gods come about, Bal and Men to be exsact. or is there any description that I am blind to?

According to Exodus:

Quote:

The Exodus of the Gods is an event that marks the central point of the Mouvelian Calendar. It is the year in which the Gods of Tyria departed from the world of Tyria and no longer lived among their creations.

Prior to the Exodus, the Gods used to live in the city of Arah in Orr, on the continent of Tyria. After the Gods controlled the use of magic and brought back the creatures of Tyria (World) from the brink of self-destruction by giving the Bloodstones to King Doric, they decided to leave the world.

What happened before that? was the world being created? and if so when did Bal and men come into play?

Free Runner · Dec 14, 2008, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Erm...your not going to be banned...you've not done anything wrong

You appear to be taking most of your quotes from the wiki. If you have the manuscripts with you (the Manuals) i would suggest taking a look inside them epescially the parts abotu the timeline. Alot of events happened before the Exodus...the casting out of Abaddon, humans appearing, the forgeing of the bloodstones...

But the origins of Balthazar and Menzies are still not explained. And while Tyria was apparantly being created by the gods, it would appear that it was there before they arrived. The only things we know that could possibly ever lead to the revelation of Balthazars origins, is that the Ancient Dragons have been on Tyria from long ago, back before history was ever recorded and could for all we know be the origins of the gods (And of course that would mean the start of Balthazar or the god that was there before him). But that is just a theory that has been thrown around. We wont know the truth for a long time...

So to answer your question simply: We dont know (and cant possibly find out with the info we have) how the gods came about. We also dont know if Menzies is a god or even a demi god. The only gods we know the origins for are Grenth and to an extent Abaddon.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 14, 2008, 11:59 PM // 23:59

You forgot Kormir Free Runner. ^^

And a-kyle, what made you think this thread would be locked and you'd get banned? That stuff hardly happens in Druid's - but that's because there is rarely spam threads and people worthy of getting banned.

Free Runner · Dec 15, 2008, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Yeah i actually should of said the "original" gods somewere in there. Also for some reason i tend to forget about Kormir being included in the new line up....mostly because part of me refuses to acknowledge that someone so stupid could become a god.

a-kyle · Dec 15, 2008, 12:38 AM // 00:38

According the Manuscript I got with the Nightfal Collectors edition It states the same thing on wiki about Bal and there is nothing about Men, but why would there be when as stated numerous times before he is not a "true" god. but if Bal (in theory) took the god position by defeating the original god of war, wouldn't he be consider a "non" true god, thus making him not one of the mighty five?

also, I know this is off topic, I have been reading about the bloodstones trying to see ifin any way they fit into the story of bal and Men (which they dont) but whats there deal? like who created them (i know thats bluntly obvious who, but I cant access the wiki atthis time due to internet issues)

Free Runner · Dec 15, 2008, 01:09 AM // 01:09

There were originally 6 gods - Dwayna, Dhuum, Balthazar, Lyssa, Melandru and Abaddon. Dhuum was the original god of death - he was overthrown by Grenth who then became the new god of death. Abaddon is known to have had a god before him - indicating that he defeated this god and took his/her place much like Grenth.

Later Kormir takes Abaddons place - the 6 true gods become Dwayna, Balthazar, Grenth, Kormir, Melandru and Lyssa. So defeating a god and taking over that gods position doesnt make you a "non" true god. 2/6 of the current gods are known to have done that.

We also cant say that Menzies isnt a god - but we cant say he is ether since we know hardly anything about him. He is only ever given the titles "Menzies, Lord of Destruction" and "Menzies The Mad". He msut hold at least some form of power - he is able to control the powerful Shadow Army, upstage the Eternal army and also aid Abaddon during Nightfall.

Quick rundown on the Bloodstones: The Bloodstones were created by the 6 original gods (Grenth having already defeated Dhuum). King Doric the leader of the human tribes, pleaded with the gods to sto pthe wars that had been caused by their earlier gift of magic. The gods gathered this magic back and split it into 4 magic schools, sealing them inside stones sealed with Dorics blood - the Bloodstones.

A 5th stone was made, known as the Keystone, and then all were thrown into Abaddons Mouth (the volcano not the god). Many years later this volcano errupted causing the Bloodstone pieces to spill out all over Tyria.

a-kyle · Dec 15, 2008, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Do these blood stones play into my question in any way or am i off topic at that point? and if not is there a stone specifically for bal? (again off topic but not really : whos the original god the one that may have started this all?)

Gmr Leon · Dec 15, 2008, 02:47 AM // 02:47

Here's my research on the matter regarding the origins of the Gods, not sure how relevant it is to your interests though: Nature of the Mists, Gods, Bloodstones, and the Essence of Magic.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 15, 2008, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

There were originally 6 gods - Dwayna, Dhuum, Balthazar, Lyssa, Melandru and Abaddon. Dhuum was the original god of death - he was overthrown by Grenth who then became the new god of death. Abaddon is known to have had a god before him - indicating that he defeated this god and took his/her place much like Grenth.

Later Kormir takes Abaddons place - the 6 true gods become Dwayna, Balthazar, Grenth, Kormir, Melandru and Lyssa. So defeating a god and taking over that gods position doesnt make you a "non" true god. 2/6 of the current gods are known to have done that.

We also cant say that Menzies isnt a god - but we cant say he is ether since we know hardly anything about him. He is only ever given the titles "Menzies, Lord of Destruction" and "Menzies The Mad". He msut hold at least some form of power - he is able to control the powerful Shadow Army, upstage the Eternal army and also aid Abaddon during Nightfall.

The Great Dwarf should be mentioned upon when dealing with Gods. As a "possible" god that is, basically the same category as Menzies.

Also, Abaddon was not a part of the original six that we know. The original god of knowledge is unknown (but surmised to be Arachnia).

Quote:

Originally Posted by a-kyle

Do these blood stones play into my question in any way or am i off topic at that point? and if not is there a stone specifically for bal? (again off topic but not really : whos the original god the one that may have started this all?)

If your question is the origin of Balthazar/Menzies, or any of the gods. No. Bloodstones relate to: Exodus, Abaddon's imprisonment, Magic, and the Flameseeker Prophecies. Indirectly to many other things, but not the origins of the Bloodstones.

For further - and older - reading on the Bloodstones, I suggest you go:

Here and Here.

I highly recommend looking through the Archives, in both the Guru threads and the GWO threads. (Links to the GWO threads on second post).

Free Runner · Dec 15, 2008, 09:50 AM // 09:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

The Great Dwarf should be mentioned upon when dealing with Gods. As a "possible" god that is, basically the same category as Menzies.

The Great Dwarf isnt one of the 6 true gods though. The only reason i put Menzies down is because this thread is dealing with him.

Quote:

Also, Abaddon was not a part of the original six that we know. The original god of knowledge is unknown (but surmised to be Arachnia).

Abaddon was part of the 6 that handed out magic - if we're going for the original original six gods then yeah i would add the unknown god of knowledge.

Since its still unclear about Dhuums actual involvement i decided to put him down in the original line up (i also put him there to explain that Grenth took his place later on).

Seri · Dec 15, 2008, 05:15 PM // 17:15

So would it be theoretically possible to "do a kormir" on any other god ?

a-kyle · Dec 15, 2008, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Ok so speaking of handing out magic, if Bal is god of war and fire does that mean he handed out the abillity or magic of fire?

Konig Des Todes · Dec 15, 2008, 08:45 PM // 20:45

@Seri: Yes it would. Not just in theory, but in practice. Dhuum, Abaddon, and Abaddon's predecessor have all been "kormired"

@a-kyle: No. Abaddon destributed all magic excluding the chosen of the gods (i.e., those in the scriptures)

a-kyle · Dec 16, 2008, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Ok that makes more sense. But is Abaddon not "evil"?

Konig Des Todes · Dec 16, 2008, 03:17 AM // 03:17

That has been up to opinion really. Same with Shiro - at least his first set of actions.

While there is evidence to support both of them being evil originally, there is also enough lack of evidence to say that they were tricked/punished unjustly. But later (i.e., gw1 timeline) were evil.

Of course, Abaddon could also be argued to be not good but not evil, just misunderstood. And during Nightfall, simply wanted to escape - using evil to do so.

Most of it is very very much perspective. Same with Menzies, is he evil or is there some sort of plot twist behind him attack Balthazar.

Dhuum, however, is very much evil. Torturing spirits for pleasure, is evil.

BrettM · Dec 16, 2008, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

@Seri: Yes it would. Not just in theory, but in practice. Dhuum, Abaddon, and Abaddon's predecessor have all been "kormired"

Yet, there is a difference. Abaddon had to die and release his power in order for Kormir to absorb it. Dhuum is still alive and still a powerful immortal, suggesting that Grenth already had his own god-level power at the time he deposed Dhuum. We don't know anything about Abaddon's predecessor, so either could be true: Abaddon was a mortal who absorbed the predecessor's power or Abaddon was an immortal who simply killed or deposed the predecessor.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 16, 2008, 08:36 PM // 20:36

I think that Dhuum is actually more of a spirit now. We never see him, nor a depiction or descri[tion of him. Same with Menzies. It's always "hiding in the shadows" in one form or another. Spirits are not immortal but non-aging, so that is highly possible.

We very well may see a spirit of Abaddon in the supposed Redeemed Realm in GW2. Or one of the three books coming out.

But being immortal before or not, it is still fact that the gods were defeated and overthrown. And it is very likely that Abaddon's predecessor (or predecessors, as it's possible he killed two gods to get his power *i.e., became a god, then killed another*).

Not to mention, being the God of Death, one would think Dhuum would know how to escape death.