Curse

Free Runner · Jan 19, 2009, 12:37 AM // 00:37

He gained Dhumms god of death powers but water still belonged to Abaddon at the time. And as stated there is no sign of Dhumm ever having an element before being overthrown.

As for Chronomancers they probably borrowed from several gods like the Dervish, rather than worshipping one single god.Time Mage is hard to fit into Guild Wars but they probably had healing, speed buffs ect...which can be attributed to any one of the 5 gods. I dont recall artwork for a new god (and i doubt Anet were going to tell us there was actually a 7th god or at least i hope not) but i did see one called "God Monoloth".

Quote:

There's little info on Menzies and the Great Dwarf may have had a profession at one point? Maybe the secrets of that profession were simply lost or shunned etc. Maybe the Tome of Rubicon isn't full and would have provided the Dwarves with that sort of information (Maybe making our fight against the Destroyers much easier as we wouldn't have had to recruit the Asura, Norn and the Ebon Vanguard if we had an uber Dwarf profession. =P

As you said theres little info. So little info that we're not even sure they are gods. The Great Destroyer was made out to being some almighty godlike force by the Stone Summit and we all know how that ended up.

To me the Great Dwarf seems more like a powerful dwarf leader that became a little too powerful to just be considered a herioc dwarf. And if he had indeed fought the Great Destroyer once before (and apparantly knew it would return) then that throws my suspicions on his "god" status even further. And Menzies is never stated to be an actual god but i doubt he is just a mortal.

Konig Des Todes · Jan 19, 2009, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

I dont recall artwork for a new god (and i doubt Anet were going to tell us there was actually a 7th god or at least i hope not) but i did see one called "God Monoloth".

Do you mean this?

Titled "God Floating Thing."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

As you said theres little info. So little info that we're not even sure they are gods. The Great Destroyer was made out to being some almighty godlike force by the Stone Summit and we all know how that ended up.

To me the Great Dwarf seems more like a powerful dwarf leader that became a little too powerful to just be considered a herioc dwarf. And if he had indeed fought the Great Destroyer once before (and apparantly knew it would return) then that throws my suspicions on his "god" status even further. And Menzies is never stated to be an actual god but i doubt he is just a mortal.

Personally, I'm starting to think the Great Destroyer we fought was not the "original" great destroyer, but a misconception of the dwarves (shame on Alkar). Just my personal theory, but I think one of two things, more likely, Abaddon (who's name means Destruction) was the Great Destroyer, and he in fact did return. Or, less likely and more linked to the dwarves, "Dragrimmar" and "Kathandrax" would be Great Dwarf/Great Destroyer, the locations are already opposites of each other, Dragrimmar being ice and Kathandrax being fire. Of course, this would have to go with the names being lost and the belief of the names being said bringing out the end of the world being folklore that was created over time due to the names being lost.

Just my personal theory because if the Ancient Dragons were around before any current race - as we are led to believe - than more than likely, the same would be said for their generals, giving a good prevention of the Great Dwarf and the currently known Great Destroyer having a battle.

Free Runner · Jan 19, 2009, 07:53 AM // 07:53

Yeah thats the artwork.

And yes i also think there were two Great Destroyers but not in the way of Abaddon being the other - i believe there were two versions, the one the Great Dwarf fought and the one that we fought. Whereas the Dwarves seem to believe its a single entity of pure evil up until the final battle, it became obvious that the Great Destroyer only served as the "hive mind". So if it was Primordus's magic that brought it up once again, it was probably just the second version that took the place of the fallen first. If this is correct we should once again be seeing a Great Destroyer in the future.

This is kinda getting heavely off topic...probably deserves its on thread on "Great Destroyer/Great Dwarf" theories.

Nathaniel (Was 'ere) · Jan 19, 2009, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Menzies is Balthazar's half brother so he's at least a Demi-God. As for the Great Destroyer/Great Dwarf thing, I thought that the Great Dwarf was sent to defeat the Great Destroyer, like a Dwarven deity taking Dwarven form to fight the menace, i.e the Destroyers. Sorry, my bad, I'll stop going off topic.

Free Runner · Jan 19, 2009, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Heres the twist. We dont know how the original 5 gods came about. And we know that a god can have his powers taken by a mortal only for the mortal to take the gods place. So imagine if a human managed to defeat a god and take his place. This new god would be known as Balthazar.......if he had a half brother then that half brother would still be human. Its unlikely this is how Balthazar came about but it is ArenaNet directing the story - they like to add twists like this.

So we cant be 100% sure Menzies is a demi god just because Balthazar is a god but when you think about it, you find yourself (or at least i find myself) putting him into the demi god catagory anyway.

The Great Dwarf was supposidly the creator of the Dwarves in Dwarven myths. Somewere down the line he came into contact with the Great Destroyer and defeated it. He wrote the Tome of the Rubicon with the prophecy that the Great Destroyer would return, and in battling it the Dwarves would be forever transformed (of course all of this came true in Eye of the North).

So exactly what he is in terms of a "god status" is unknown. But if the original myth is true then he wasnt just sent to destroy the Great Destroyer.

draxynnic · Jan 21, 2009, 01:32 AM // 01:32

My own working theory is that the dwarves were made by the gods originally in their stone form as a counter to the Destroyers. The "Great Dwarf" may have been the way the gods (or possibly an individual god such as Balthazar) presented themselves to the dwarves, their leader, or possibly, as Jalis implies in the present day, the hive-consciousness of the stone dwarfs: "We are all the Great Dwarf now."

When the dragons went to sleep, the dwarfs were transformed to flesh and blood and granted the ability to reproduce since such a race would be less susceptible to attrition over the centuries - and may even grow in population - thus increasing the expected numbers of the army resulting from returning the dwarfs to stone.

It's possible that there is an artifact still in the world that could have returned them to flesh and blood, or even that the right ritual with the Hammer of the Great Dwarf could have achieved this. However, since this doesn't seem to have happened before GW2, it is likely that the remaining dwarf population is too small to be viable.

Scythykins · Jan 23, 2009, 07:35 AM // 07:35

My thought on the matter (and an attempt at dragging the thought process back to the OT,) is that both Dervishes and Paragons are/were the professions of Abaddon. Dervishes and Paragons are native to Elona only. We do not see them (until EotN) anywhere else in Tyria. The lands that are closest historically and ideologically to Abaddon's reign are those of Elona. Fahranur has been discussed many times in this forum as a city devoted to the worship of Abaddon. Abaddon was struck down at the Mouth of Torment, a site that the ancient Elonian city of Morah was built to keep close eye on. While evidence of Abaddon worship has been seen in the other continents, and followers of Abaddon are found everywhere, such as the fortune teller in Cantha, nowhere is his presence most strongly felt than in the lands where he was struck down.

I'm aware that the Para and Derv professions were new items, and they're exclusive to Elona as a gameplay mechanic. It does stand to reason, however, that Elona is a land that is overall devoted to Abaddon, and the two professions exclusive and native to that land were the original devotees of Abaddon.

As an aside, what is with the fetish of spelling Abaddon Abbadon. Is this purposely done by ABBA fans? Curious :-p

draxynnic · Jan 23, 2009, 02:07 PM // 14:07

I have both counterpoints and counter-counterpoints to that argument...

First counterpoint: We know where the centre of Abaddon-worship was - the Margonites of the Crystal Sea, now known as the Crystal Desert. Technically, this is neither Tyria nor Elona, but straddling the border between the two regions.

Counter-counterpoint: While the centre of Abaddon-worship was in the Crystal Desert, the majority of the opposition to Abaddon was from Tyria. It was King Doric of Ascalon that petitioned for the nerfing of Abaddon's gift, while Arah was the home of three of the gods. It is possible, even likely, that while the centre of Abaddon-worship was in the Crystal Sea, he had more influence in Elona - which was still closer to his own seat of power than Arah - than in Ascalon or Orr.

Second counterpoint: The Nightfall preorder disk actually gives some background lore on Paragons and Dervishes. From this info, Paragons are chosen by the gods - this implies that, regardless of what the statue benefits may be, no god has or has had a special monopoly on Paragons... however, this also means that the chosen of any deity may be a Paragon regardless of that deity's preferred profession. So, Abaddon will have Paragons, but they are not his special profession any more than they are Balthazar's or Dwayna's. Neither are they Kormir's, which perhaps explains why the Facet of Spirit appears as a Dervish when Kormir herself was a Paragon.

The Dervish, on the other hand, is a profession who's origin is known - they appeared during the Shattered Dynasty era, after the fall of the Primeval Kings and well after the fall of Abaddon.

Counter-counterpoint: Yet Abaddon's forces contain a significant number of Dervishes among them, while Assassins and Ritualists are quite rare. It is possible that the appearance of Dervishes was not new, but the revival of an older tradition.

Furthermore, we return to the fact that Kormir's draconic aspect is a Dervish. Why a Dervish, when ANet could have been even lazier and reused the Facet of Elements? Could this be the sign of an older relationship between the Dervish profession and Kormir's portfolio - a portfolio which was, after all, inherited from Abaddon?

Nathaniel (Was 'ere) · Jan 23, 2009, 04:18 PM // 16:18

LOL, good counter-counter points. =P

Anyway, I dunno if this next point is valid, but, the Envoy, http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Messenger_Vetaura, used scythes in concept artwork , which was before the Nightfall campaign, and a melee AoE proffession, which, amazingly enough, *Cough cough*, I can't find the talk page for, was replaced by Assassins in Factions, leading me to believe that Abaddon and the Dervishes were a set all along and maybe A-net couldn't make both fit into actions so replaced it until they could make it fit in. Also, maybe Vetaura was a Dervish leader and when Abaddon fell the rest of his Dervishes were spared and Vetaura was cursed to become an Envoy as punishment for following (And fighting for?) Abaddon.

Konig Des Todes · Jan 24, 2009, 02:59 AM // 02:59

I will not argue with draxynnic because those are what I was going to say and more.

So at Nathaniel: while aoe was the original idea for assassins and not chaining. I do not think that Anet planned the dervish for Factions - it is possible. I think the scythe was added for the whole envoy of the dead feel (i.e., death incarnate, grim reaper, shepherd of the dead, all using scythes).

And I think that the influence of that particular envoy also had a scythe.

draxynnic · Jan 24, 2009, 10:26 AM // 10:26

From my understanding, ANet originally planned out the chapters in trilogies, with the finale of each trilogy wrapping up the 'overplot' of the previous two. So I'd say it's quite likely that the Envoys' designs were influenced by what was being planned for Nightfall.

Carter Reeves · Jan 24, 2009, 07:20 PM // 19:20

BIG SPOILER READ THORTH AND KNOW ALL

We know that the fortune teller which maddned Shiro was acctualy a servent of Abaddon. Also the Lich was a servent of Abbadon as well. So draxynnic's point is very valid. Nightfall covered the last two games and ended the story of Tyria for a while.

But, we dont know how the gods were made (being gods and all i wouldent think they would tell) BUT we do know how they came about to Tyria. All you gotta do is hang around pre-searing and read the text of the gods at all there statues.

We also know that when humanity was falling to the strength of other beings, the gods came down, and took the powers away, makeing them only able to use powers from two proffesions.

In the time, the gods made the earth and let it run to its self. Humanity was weakened, since the other races were able to be say Monk, Elementalist and Mesmer at the same time. Im just guessing humans lacked the body and/or spirit power to hold in the power. So the gods made a two proffesion system.

Its pretty much all in the manuals.

But as for the dwarfs, mabey the great dwarf was a envoy himself, so when a dwarf dies, there envoy could be the great dwarf him self.

But as for the gods comeing about, read it up in the pre searing.

Konig Des Todes · Jan 24, 2009, 08:48 PM // 20:48

What I meant was that the professions wasn't made fully. Afterall, there are evidences of a "Bard" profession that was meant for Factions. So Professions, which probably started out planned, constantly got changed.

Also, the scriptures are at any statue of the gods, and show how they appeared to their chosen to fist give their own magic (not widespread magic), not how they appeared on Tyria (they appeared at least 200 years prior with the Forgotten).

We do not know the status of humanity with magic, just that it caused much war, and Doric pleaded for the removal of magic. Nothing was ever stated about other races except that magic was given to them as well.

You take canon lore (which by the way is up in the Archives that is stickied) and add in unproven thoughts and call it canon.

FoxBat · Jan 25, 2009, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Magic only became "elemental" when it was split up by the bloodstones after a plea to the gods from King Doric, to weaken it's power. And who was giving out most of that raw magic power, teaching the dark secrets to humans? Abbaddon. So Abbadon is the god of magicians, aka "elementalists", before their powers were split up into the seperate elements. (and he was then banished, etc. etc.)

The non-core professions are really add ons and it frankly doesn't matter which god they end up with. Abbadon was somehow part of the design plans of GW1 as shown by abbadon's mouth, there are 5 gods aligning perfectly with the other professions, abbadon was secretly involved with the 6th one (elementalists) before they likely decided that he wouldn't be part of the prophecies story.

draxynnic · Jan 25, 2009, 02:45 AM // 02:45

I think you're getting confused between the four elements and the four types of magic seperated by the Bloodstones. Consider that it's still possible to make an Elementalist using all four elements (Master of Magic and Prismatic Armour even encourage it). What the Bloodstones do is enforce the limit of professions to just two, with each bloodstone being tied to a core spellcaster profession. (Ritualists existed before the gift of magic, and therefor would appear to be independant of the Bloodstone. Ranger supernatural powers are typically similar in behaviour to the Ritualists, albeit using nature spirits instead of those of dead ancestors, and are thus also likely independant.)

It's also worth noting that the primary/secondary thing isn't just limited to humanity - everyone is limited to two forms of magic. The warfare Doric sought to stop wasn't human-on-human, it was every-race-on-every-other-race. Seems it didn't stop the fighting itself, but it may have reduced the destruction involved.

That said, it's possible that if he hadn't been banished Abaddon would have given patronage to Elementalists and Dervishes as caster and fighter respectively, in a similar manner to Lyssa giving patronage to both Mesmers and Assassins.

FoxBat · Jan 25, 2009, 04:52 AM // 04:52

Yeah you're probably right after going back and looking at it... for the longest time I had assumed that Elementalists were once "high" magicians that commanded awesome powers that defied elemental classification. (like, stopping time, turning an ocean into desert, etc.), and this power was diluted into 4 elemental forms via the bloodstone. Monks and necros could be considered "clerics" relying on divine powers instead of mages, while the mesmer is akin to a psionic/psychic type, IE not strictly magic users.

But the manual makes clear that you can still enjoy the same powers, but only by cooperation to get them all together. (smells symbolically of taking the old fighter-rogue-mage triumverate of RPG games, and then dividing the latter into four.) And while you can classify aggression-destruction-preservation-denial as air-fire-earth-water, ele-necro-monk-mesmer is definitely the better fit.

I'll still bet Abbadon or something like him was originally a representative of elementalists, but that clearly changed well before they started publishing game lore like the first manual - and therefore doesn't have much bearing on game lore.

Or there's always alternate theories like the 5 gods being derivative of the 5 colors of Magic: The Gathering, so the 6th ele profession just gets put somewhere inbetween, but I'm sure that kind of thing has been rehashed a million times before.

draxynnic · Jan 25, 2009, 05:27 AM // 05:27

Dwayna = White
Melandru = Green
Balthazar = Red
Grenth = Black
Lyssa = Blue?

Eh, it works, although a direct translation would give Water and non-lightning Air to Lyssa, and lightning to Balthazar.

Konig Des Todes · Jan 25, 2009, 07:30 AM // 07:30

Yeah, best not link games to each other. But you can use the background and influence of other games as the background and influence of GW.

I think Elementalists were meant to be a jack-of-all-trades kind of deal, in relation to the gods of course - meaning that they worshiped all 6 gods *then 5*.

Abaddon for Water Magic
Dwayna for Air Magic
Balthazar for Fire Magic
Melandru for Earth Magic
Lyssa for Storage Energy
Grenth/Dhuum because all things eventually die, and when Dhuum was around, I would assume everyone would want to be on his good side to avoid torture.

Just a random through that occured, couldn't it be possible that a profession once existed when Abaddon was around, but was removed due to him being banished?

draxynnic · Jan 26, 2009, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Yes. The Uber-Mage profession that could wield magic of all four disciplines simultaneously.

Otherwise... Not really. The impression I've always had is that members of a given profession don't have to be followers of the god that patronises that profession... the Charr being possibly the best example, followed by such things as monk followers of Lyssa. So Abaddon being banished doesn't mean the profession is no longer available. It may, however, mean that the profession is suppressed, possibly to be rediscovered later as an 'orphaned' profession...

...just like the Dervish may have, which, as previously noted, explains why Abaddon has dervishes where in generally accepted history the profession wasn't founded until after his imprisonment. It's even possible that the humility of the Dervishes towards the gods initially came from the knowledge that theirs was a profession that had been banned, and they were seeking to appease the Five Gods through their piety.

Steps_Descending · Jan 28, 2009, 03:34 AM // 03:34

This got me thinking about something :

1.We know that Dhuum was killed and his port-folio was taken by grenth
2. We know Abbadon was imprisoned in the realm, his portfolio included truth/secret and sea.
3. From what I recall, Grenth is the god of frost, not exactly water.
4. All profession are tied to 1 god(...where to begin) or multiple gods(elementalist, Dervish)
5. Abbadon's port folio included truth, I think a mad souls hint he started like Kormir and later became god of secret (hypocrisy, corruption? I don't know).

The first three facts add up pretty well : what if Abbadon still had control over secret (there is no god of truth before nightfall. or secret god) and sea?
If you consider that Grenth is never explicitely (as far as I know) refered as water god and that water magic is actually more frost than water. Save for a few skill.

About his proffession, it could have disappeared when he was emprisonned, after all, Abbadon started to affect the outside world when his prison started to weaken. His proffession might have been a saillor/hydromancer class. I could think of a jack-of-all trade class that could fight well at sea, heal wound during travel, orientate itself (if that last on makes sense)

On the current classes, I'd go for paragon. They are leader and are close to super-human (I remember reading the elonian saw them as angels in human form, or blessed by the gods). The first follower was a paragon, Varesh "turn" into a spear-weilding margonite. As a (war)leader, the truth/secret portfolio fit well.
About paragons following Balthazar.
What if they were following both in equal measure?
What if the other gods were imitating or slowly taking abbadon's portfolio in his absence : grenth slowly taking water, Dwayna acting as leader/truth, paragon forgetting abbadon for complete Balthazar worship. Actually, paragon as a class under abbadon might have been more politic orriented (not saying that fits well in a game) than in-battle commander

EDIT : I know I am taking random facts to upgrade my theories but :
Ironically, Commander Varesh is somewhat a paragon, uses command-paragon-style skills, accept she follows abbadon. Ironically as an abbadon paragon she is pure order and no fighting (other than the lv30 body swigning spears, margonite status must give extra strenght) basically she lacks the most balthazarian part of paragons but has leader abilities.