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Old Oct 08, 2008, 05:32 AM // 05:32   #1
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This was brought up a lot in another thread and I'd really like to get everyone's opinion on it. Most assume that the "story" of Guild Wars revolves around us, that the heroes that all the NPCs keep referencing to are PCs. Others think that Devona and her lot are the ones who do all the work lore-wise with the rest of us handling the menial quest they cant' be arsed to do. I've always assumed it was a mixture of both, that Devona and her lot accompanied a group of un-named heroes (that'd be us) on thier mission to save Tyria.

Quote:
The Tombs of Drascir rose up like the walls of a fortress. Devona, Aidan, Cynn, and Mhenlo stood looking up at it. Four other Ascalons had joined them for this quest, bringing their combined number to eight.
I had always assumed that those four where us (or at least those of us who started from Prophicies).

One thing to consider is that despite having an in-game cap of 8 to a party, that may not be the case in the lore. There could have been 20-something heroes gathered together to defeat Abaddon or the Great Destroyer. They where gods after all, and it's a stretch to think 8 people killed a god, even 8 super-powered Guild Wars characters. (I realize the above quote seems to discredit this theory but just because there happened to be 8 of them there doesn't mean it's a rule in lore.)

I mean we have what, 32 heroes? And it's generally assumed that even if we don't take them with us on a particular mission, they're always with us, as made evident by the fact that certain Heroes appear in EotN cinematics whether we had them in our party or not. Even if they do stick around in towns while we go handle our business, they still journey with us.So it's not unreasonable to think that just because we only see 8 people on the screen at any given time, there aren't a whole bunch more of them tackling the same obstacles in the lore.

As far as I can figure,it was the PCs that did everything talked about in the lore. The same mob of heroes that followed Rurick through Ascalon are the ones that defeated the Lich, Togo's student's defeated Shiro, Sunspears killed Abaddon, and some group of unknown heroes killed the Great Destroyer. Devona and her crew where just lucky (or unlucky) enough to be with each group as they did their thing. It seems to me Devona and the other henches just serves as a way to try and tie things together, they're like witnesses to all the great moments in Tyrian history and even get to fight next to the heroes that shape it. (us)
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Old Oct 08, 2008, 06:30 AM // 06:30   #2
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First of all, let me be the first to welcome you to the lore community. (As no one else has, and this is only your second post in the lore thread, and the first thread).

And now my more official welcome... me commenting on your post bit by bit, trying to tear it apart or support it.

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Originally Posted by The 8th View Post
This was brought up a lot in another thread and I'd really like to get everyone's opinion on it. Most assume that the "story" of Guild Wars revolves around us, that the heroes that all the NPCs keep referencing to are PCs. Others think that Devona and her lot are the ones who do all the work lore-wise with the rest of us handling the menial quest they cant' be arsed to do. I've always assumed it was a mixture of both, that Devona and her lot accompanied a group of un-named heroes (that'd be us) on thier mission to save Tyria.
I'm sure you are referring to the Mysterious Stranger thread for the debate. And I assume you know that I think it is the henchmen and heroes that do things, and that our players are just "the random adventurers killing things."

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Originally Posted by The 8th
I had always assumed that those four where us (or at least those of us who started from Prophicies).
I took it as being one of the other henchmen (most likely Thom, Lina, Dunham, and Eve).

Quote:
Originally Posted by The 8th
One thing to consider is that despite having an in-game cap of 8 to a party, that may not be the case in the lore. There could have been 20-something heroes gathered together to defeat Abaddon or the Great Destroyer. They where gods after all, and it's a stretch to think 8 people killed a god, even 8 super-powered Guild Wars characters. (I realize the above quote seems to discredit this theory but just because there happened to be 8 of them there doesn't mean it's a rule in lore.)
In lore, imo, there is no party cap. Factions is the best show of this. Anet avoided the party cap from two teams in one mission, in lore, imo, all the henchmen in outposts would be with us (there are more then that in each Factions outpost on the mainland). And in NF and EN, every hero is with the party (which is shown best in EN, as the cinimatics have certain heroes, even if they are not a part of your group. Allies in all 4 games support this as well. Abaddon, in lore, had 10 heroes, kormir, and 15 heroes attacking him. The Great Destroyer, would have 10 henchmen, and 10 heroes attacking him, and maybe some of the heroes from NF *hard to tell with that, some heroes settle down - such as Melonni, Koss, MoW - and some travel - such as Tahlkora, Norgu, Goren - rest are unknown.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The 8th
I mean we have what, 32 heroes? And it's generally assumed that even if we don't take them with us on a particular mission, they're always with us, as made evident by the fact that certain Heroes appear in EotN cinematics whether we had them in our party or not. Even if they do stick around in towns while we go handle our business, they still journey with us.So it's not unreasonable to think that just because we only see 8 people on the screen at any given time, there aren't a whole bunch more of them tackling the same obstacles in the lore.
26 heroes (15 from NF, 10 from EN, 1 M.O.X.). Heh, I should read the whole post instead of paragraph by paragraph, as you state the same things as me. Basically, look above for the support.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The 8th
As far as I can figure,it was the PCs that did everything talked about in the lore. The same mob of heroes that followed Rurick through Ascalon are the ones that defeated the Lich, Togo's student's defeated Shiro, Sunspears killed Abaddon, and some group of unknown heroes killed the Great Destroyer. Devona and her crew where just lucky (or unlucky) enough to be with each group as they did their thing. It seems to me Devona and the other henches just serves as a way to try and tie things together, they're like witnesses to all the great moments in Tyrian history and even get to fight next to the heroes that shape it. (us)
This is where I disagree. Devona and co. volunteered to help, just as our characters did. While there are student's of Togo that defeat shiro, some sunspears that kill Abaddon, and some from all of the above that killed the Great Destroyer, Devona and co. were at them all, for the same reason as our characters (mainly the ones from Ascalon), so I would argue that characters take the place of the henchmen and heroes.

But all in all, none of this can be proven unless we get an ANet staff to confirm of deny if our characters are doing the deeds of Devona and co. from a lore perspective.
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Old Oct 08, 2008, 08:57 AM // 08:57   #3
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At the end of the Moddok Crevice mission there a cinematic showing all of your mandatory heroes around you in Bahdok Caverns, in the area where the Hunger has just been slain. You can see Koss, Melonni, Dunkoro and Tahlkora, discussing about what the next move to fight Varesh should be. As stated, that happens a lot in EotN as well. So, lore-wise, heroes and henchmen must be following you somehow, even if they're not actually in your party when you play the missions.
Last edited by Gill Halendt; Oct 08, 2008 at 09:01 AM // 09:01..
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Old Dec 10, 2008, 03:15 AM // 03:15   #4
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I would agree that the 8 interacting characters we see are not the only participators in the battle. Indeed, at times (the Siege of Gandara, the hunt for the titans), I believe there would have been many many more participators than may be seen, beyond the limits of Heroes and Henchmen.

However, as for the role of the Playable Character, I think we act as the leading hero; the commander. In most cutscenes involving heroes, the heroes look to the PC as leader:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiki
Ogden: Vekk, we have to rally the local populace, these Norn.
Vekk: But we don't know how much of the gate network has been compromoised.
Ogden: Exactly. We're on our own. The battle starts here.
*PC*: What's the matter?
Ogden: The Destroyers are coming up from the depths. We need an army, right now. Help me convince the Norn to help us.
Vekk: The Destroyers drove my people to the surface, we should contact them.
Gwen: They're both wrong, it's the Ebon Vanguard that needs your help. A large detachement led by Captain Langmar made a sortie into the Charr Homelands. They are now several weeks over due and I fear the worst. I need you to help me find them.
Vekk: We need my people's knowledge.
Ogden: No, we need the Norn as allies.
Vekk: It's up to you, Bookah, which do we do first?
*PC*: Why do I have to make the tough decisions?
Gwen: You're just lucky I guess.
In cutscenes that DON'T involve heroes (which may involve henchmen such as Devona and co.), the PC still acts as spokesperson for the group, and so takes the leading role. The PC gets appointed as an Acting Spearmarshal following the disappearance of Kormir etc etc.

The only problem is that the Prophecies Manuscripts describe the Nolani Academy mission (in detail) without the presence of the PC, despite the fact that most of will have completed the Nolani Academy mission (and would've done so apparently without the help of Devona, Aidan, Mhenlo or Cynn, who do not appear as henchmen for that mission). This provides us with a paradox that can only be resolved by asserting that the PC and their team must have been present at a different part of the Nolani Academy, and are simply not mentioned in the Manuscripts (and vice versa during gameplay). The reason for the PC's absence from the Manuscripts must be that the PC (at the time the Manuscripts were produced) had not yet established a reputation as a heroic commander, and so was omitted from the literature. Our story then runs parallel to Devona's (we bump into her at Pockmark Flats, North Kryta Province and Skyward Reach*) until we then merge our two parties at Thunderhead Keep. It must be assumed that by Thunderhead Keep, Devona is willing to yield leadership to the PC, and so becomes a henchman, following our command.

If we wish to get even more meta-lore, there is the issue of other people's PCs. During missions and quests, we are repeatedly being told that our PC is the only person for the job. Yet, if we enter any reasonably sized outpost, a sizeable group of people can often be found to assist us (if not lead us!) in our quest.

Therefore our PC cannot be the only commander out there. We command our own group of heroes and henchmen, but we are part of a larger picture. There are many other commanders out there, all striving for the same goals. We can, if we so wish, combine our forces to tackle a mutual objective; when this happens, one of the commanders takes command of the new merged group, and so acts as a spokesperson and leader when relevent. This makes sense if you think about it; an assault on a Dark God's realm would take more than 8 people; cleansing a continent of demonic titans would also take more. This is the only way of explaining the large numbers of well-armed and well-equipped people that you see whenever you enter a town.

*see http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Devona
Last edited by Kelen; Dec 10, 2008 at 03:18 AM // 03:18..
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Old Dec 10, 2008, 03:53 AM // 03:53   #5
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Kelen, while you give a good point with how the player character takes a role, I would like to point out the conflict with the story as you mentioned with the not present as a figurehead.

There are many stories of missions and acts that were to be done by Devona and co that our characters do. Mind you those stories are old - from beta I think(has the names Khylo *Ascalon City* and Saul Botolf *Saul D'Alessio*).

The whole leading thing, in my opinion, is there because who else but the person on the top of the team to lead in a multiplayer game. If heroes or henchmen could act as the leaders of a party, then they would be the "spokesperson" for the group.

However, with Nightfall, Heroes were introduced and with that a second spokesperson for many missions, each mission a different secondary spokesperson. Whereas before it was only the leader and any NPCs (not including henchmen) that were in the mission.

Devona acts as the leader of the group (excluding in Factions where it is more of Mhenlo as a leader). As such, she would be the spokesperson of the group.

While I don't believe that Devona, Mhenlo, Aiden, Eve, and Cynn do the whole game of what we do, I believe that they do the primary quests/missions, and some secondary quests (few of them, about in similar proportion of how many quests they are involved with in Prophecies quests for throughout all 4 games).

And the rest of the secondary quests would be done by the other henchmen and heroes, and the "random adventurers" who would be considered our characters. Such jobs of the "random adventurers" would be simple monster hunters, bounty hunters, mercenaries, body guards, etc. etc.

That's my view of it.

Sadly, until we get a comment from an Anet staff member, all we can do is state our opinion and back them up.
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Old Dec 13, 2008, 10:13 PM // 22:13   #6
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Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin View Post
While I don't believe that Devona, Mhenlo, Aiden, Eve, and Cynn do the whole game of what we do,
They appear to have skipped Maguuma entirely, since iirc you never encounter them there.

And then there's Eve, who never appears with the others (she's not with them outside Lion's Arch, or in that "go look at the big rock" Crystal Desert quest) until appearing as a henchman, even though canonically she was with them all along...
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Old Dec 13, 2008, 11:19 PM // 23:19   #7
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Devonas group disappear for many of the major events and then show up at the destination regardless of not being there for the journey (Ascalon - Kryta, Magumma - Crystal Desert and Dragons Lair - Thunderhead Keep). Its a huge overlook (like how Shadow managed to make it from the Henge of Denravi to the Ember Light Camp).

I believe the roles are played out be seperate people outside of Devonas group. My belief of this stems from the fact that NPCs make direct refferences to the hero.

For example lets say there are four roles - The Ascalonian, The Shing Jea Student, The Young Sunspear and the Southern Adventurer.

The Ascalonian witnesses Ruriks death, joins theMantle and then the Shineing Blade, finds the Henge of Denravi and destroys the Titan Army - Devona and Co are not there (Actually dont you find it interesting how Devonas group seem to "disappear" when we start doing our rounds with the Shining Blade? they then reappear once we've left evennia behind.....)

After being killed by Shiro, Togo makes a direct statement to the student (regardless of you being Tyrian or Elonian) that he knew they were destined for great things from the moment they entered Shing Jea as a student. Another point here is that Devonas group never entered Shing Jea.

The Sunspear one is the most evident - the Heroes are led by this Sunspear. Devona and Co are called along by Kormir and are simply allies that came from the other continent. The heroes have a unique relationship with the hero. Also Kormirs scriptures mention the hero - i bet anything that in GW2 that plaque will ether recognise the name of the accounts GW1 character (through use of "Hero of Elona") or say "legendary hero" or another filler that is generally used in games that never directly mention the hero.

For Eye of the North, again the heroes have a unique relationship with the player. Its also a very "personal" expansion - it revolves around the hero instead of some Trigger Happy Prince or some Glorified Paragon who wields a Spear despite being Blind.

So thats my belief - the 3 campaigns are all played out be separate heroes from their respective continents and Eye of the North is a continuation of those heroes stories. Devona and Co are "there" but they are not in the exact role of the hero.
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Old Jan 24, 2009, 12:09 AM // 00:09   #8
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Originally Posted by Gill Halendt View Post
So, lore-wise, heroes and henchmen must be following you somehow, even if they're not actually in your party when you play the missions.
i would think so.
lore wise you cant just walk up to dunkoro and be like "hey, get in my scroll box i need to use livia instead."
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Old Jan 24, 2009, 10:09 AM // 10:09   #9
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One possible explanation is one I've seen used in roleplaying games - They're a little 'offscreen' fighting other foes while you fight. In Raisu Palace this is in fact expressly stated - it's reasonable that any heroes and henchmen you aren't currently using are doing something else, such as covering your rear, creating a diversion, doing the other side of the missions for those storylines where you have to choose between two missions, or doing something else off-camera.
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Old Mar 04, 2009, 10:59 PM // 22:59   #10
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One possible explanation is one I've seen used in roleplaying games - They're a little 'offscreen' fighting other foes while you fight. In Raisu Palace this is in fact expressly stated - it's reasonable that any heroes and henchmen you aren't currently using are doing something else, such as covering your rear, creating a diversion, doing the other side of the missions for those storylines where you have to choose between two missions, or doing something else off-camera.
Kind of like Lando Calrisian and Wedge Antilles get to blow up Death Star 2 because Han Solo and Leia Organa shut it's shields down on Endor while the Emperor's been distracted with the whole turn Luke Skywalker to the darkside thing...

But you only get to see the space battle. Works for me.
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