Curse

Seri · Jun 30, 2009, 03:19 PM // 15:19

I know there is a discussion on the other forums, but I wanted to make one here based on the knowledge in the game.

Quote:

There are some who say that the demonic, savage Oni originate in the Mists, others from someplace even more distant, dark, and cut off from the world of sanity. They are killers from beyond, appearing from nowhere to butcher their victims, for what reason no one knows. Whatever their purpose or origin, the Oni are among the most deadly things on two legs in Cantha.

Quote:

"Oni are curious creatures. We of the Turtle Clan believe they were once human but have become twisted by terrible nightmares from deep within the Jade Sea. They are similar to the Luxons known as Outcasts, driven to the edge of insanity and irrationally violent. Oni may hold the key to discovering the true nature of the Outcasts.

Oni are the only demons that are not known to be affiliated with Abaddon, Menzies or Dhuum. Based on the evidence we have we assume that oni were first luxons reavers that were tormented by the Jade Wind into outcasts and then into Oni, and the fact there are oni on Shing Jea and that we know the Luxons were seafaring people supports this.

On the other forums there was a discussion about the strength of the oni the further away they are from Kanaxai, which is disproven by the fact that the oni in the deep are weaker (level 24) compared to (level 28).

However some canthans think they come from somewhere else, the problem is there are no scrolls in luxon or kurzick territory to say that there were oni before the Jade Wind, it doesn't mean there weren't any.

The last thing I want to discuss is their ability to appear. Why do they appear when you walk into their zone? Is it possible that that is the spot they were "converted"? And (basing this on luxon lore) what does the outcast do to become oni?

Discuss :P

Konig Des Todes · Jun 30, 2009, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Just a note, "first luxons reavers that were tormented by the Jade Wind into outcasts and then into Oni" should be by Kanaxai - not the Jade Wind.

it is highly possible that Kanaxai was around before the Jade Wind - just as Urgoz was - and it is implied that Oni are caused by Kanaxai.

Also, if you look at Kanaxai - easily seen in Aurios Mines - half of him has skin similar to Oni, the other half is more blackish.

My personal theory is that Kanaxai slowly torments beings, making them go mad, then turns them into, well, himself.

I.e., goes from Normal guy->Outcast->Oni->Aspect of Kanaxai->Kanaxai

It is possible there is higher "transformations" or corruptions past what we know Kanaxai to be at.

As for how an Outcast becomes an Oni, I'd think it would be similar to how Varesh was turning into a Margonite. A slow physical transformation once the mind was changed. That is, a normal person first goes insane, then goes pure "kill kill kill" mode, while physically changing.

Most Outcasts are wrapped in robes, so it would be possible.

For the appearing thing, I think they "meld into the shadows" like an Assassin does, then they just "un-meld" when you get into backstabbing range. And since you found them, they are unable to go back into hiding.

Also, regarding their source. I do think they are linked to Menzies - though indirectly personally.

Kanaxai is supposedly the manefistation of nightmares. And half of his body is what? As dark as shadows. What is Menzies' army? The Shadow Army. Everything about Menzies links to shadows. There is also a possible concept art of Balthazar and Menzies (titled Demonslayer1 - will attach it) where the possible Menzies' skin is similar to that of an Oni and Kanaxai's skinned half and the possible Menzies is surrounded by shadow.

Though the connection is very tedious, I do think it is possible.

Free Runner · Jun 30, 2009, 06:01 PM // 18:01

The Canthans that believe they came from somewere else believe they came from the Mists. They think they are demons that have been formed in and roam around the Mists occasionally entering Tyria. These same Canthans think Oni are rare, to the point of some believing they dont exist. But i think we can agree that they do appear quite alot in the Jade Sea and Ecovald Forest. And ironicly the Luxons and Kurzicks seem to have a better grasp on what they are and where they are from. So i'm betting the first belief is based on the Canthans never coming into contact with Onis as frequently as the Factions do. Afterall how many common canthans are going to walk around the dangerous Echovald and Jade Sea?

We never see Oni anywere other than Cantha. Not even the Domain of Anguish, the one realm where Demon activity is through the roof, do we see a single Oni. Not in the Underworld nor the Fissure of Woe. We also never see them on Tyria or Elona - if they were demons from the Mists surely they would appear on both Tyria and Elona aswell as Cantha?

The Kurzicks believe the Oni appeared after the Jade Wind. Considering there are no reports or facts supporting them being around before the Jade Wind i'm inclined to believe that it is true that they only started appearing after it occured.

Now Kanaxai apparantly was there before the Jade Wind according to one of the NPCs. And the Jade Wind trapped him down there until the Outcasts accidently excavated him. And after that the Oni started appearing. So if you put that with the Luxon collectors theory on where the Oni come from, it seems very likely that the Oni are just Outcasts that have been pushed over the edge.

But Kanaxai was around before the Jade Wind - he was trapped down there by the Jade Wind. So surely there would of been Oni around before it happened? but heres my theory. Nobody knows where Kanaxai came from. He never shows any signs of being part of a gods army, no relations to Abaddon, Dhuum or Menzies. Hes just there.

I believe that Kanaxai was a single demon that was spawned in the Mists. Maybe even some kind of Oni or Nightmare. The Mists after all creates demons from time to time. He could of appeared on Cantha like how Nightmares seep into the mortal world and got caught up in the Jade Wind. At this point my theory is he was twisted further by the Jade Wind in some way. And then years later along come the Luxon Reavers excavating the jade. And Kanaxai is freed, thus corrupting the Outcasts, causing them to go insane and bringing the oni into the world.

Well thats just my theory on where the Oni and Kanaxai came from

Konig Des Todes · Jun 30, 2009, 06:41 PM // 18:41

That, I think, is the most likeliest theory. On his origin at least.

Seri · Jun 30, 2009, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Interesting, but there are three different types of oni. Lesser Oni, Oni and Oni of the Deep. Would you say a lesser oni would be half way between Outcast and full Oni?

Konig Des Todes · Jun 30, 2009, 10:11 PM // 22:11

That is possible, or those are just "rankings" so to speak - in terms of strength. Not by strength determined by closeness to Kanaxai, but just the overall power of an Oni. Determined by itself - just as the strength of other individuals are normally determined by themselves.

Seri · Jun 30, 2009, 10:53 PM // 22:53

That theory doesn't explain why lesser oni are only confined to shing jea though :/

Konig Des Todes · Jun 30, 2009, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Yes it does. Shing Jea is filled with weaker creatures, while the Echovald Forest and the Jade Sea have stronger creatures. As such, the corrupted humans would be stronger in the Echovald Forest and the Jade Sea. That is how I view it at least.

Free Runner · Jun 30, 2009, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seri

That theory doesn't explain why lesser oni are only confined to shing jea though :/

I cant really explain or put a theory out as to why hes confined to Shing Jea because it seems more like gameplay heavly affected that (lvl 28 Oni on Shing Jea would probably cause a problem

).

As for the Lesser Oni part it could be multiple reasons. If they are indeed Outcasts it could of been a weaker outcast. Or maybe an incomplete Oni which would explain why Lesser Onis attack alone as opposed to in groups - caught between Outcast and Oni it isolates itself. The second theory is a very far stretch but the first one sounds more plausable.

Gmr Leon · Jul 01, 2009, 07:50 AM // 07:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Also, regarding their source. I do think they are linked to Menzies - though indirectly personally.

Kanaxai is supposedly the manefistation of nightmares. And half of his body is what? As dark as shadows. What is Menzies' army? The Shadow Army. Everything about Menzies links to shadows. There is also a possible concept art of Balthazar and Menzies (titled Demonslayer1 - will attach it) where the possible Menzies' skin is similar to that of an Oni and Kanaxai's skinned half and the possible Menzies is surrounded by shadow.

Though the connection is very tedious, I do think it is possible.

I think the word you're looking for there is tenuous. That aside, connecting Menzies and the Shadow Army to Kanaxai is, and I'll just be blunt, utterly absurd. If we make that connection, we might as well make the connection that the Shadow Army is made of the fallen White Mantle soldiers due to their similar appearances.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

Now Kanaxai apparantly was there before the Jade Wind according to one of the NPCs. And the Jade Wind trapped him down there until the Outcasts accidently excavated him. And after that the Oni started appearing. So if you put that with the Luxon collectors theory on where the Oni come from, it seems very likely that the Oni are just Outcasts that have been pushed over the edge.

But Kanaxai was around before the Jade Wind - he was trapped down there by the Jade Wind. So surely there would of been Oni around before it happened?

I think the point people keep overlooking is that Kanaxai was likely in some sort of slumber prior to the Jade Wind, hence why there are no records of Oni appearing. Afterward, when the Jade Reavers excavated him, they just happened to accidentally awaken him, thus causing the Outcasts and the Oni we see today.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 01, 2009, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I think the word you're looking for there is tenuous. That aside, connecting Menzies and the Shadow Army to Kanaxai is, and I'll just be blunt, utterly absurd. If we make that connection, we might as well make the connection that the Shadow Army is made of the fallen White Mantle soldiers due to their similar appearances.

I don't think it is as far fetched as the White Mantle/Shadow Army, to be honest. That mainly because it's not the same generic model.

Though, like I said, it is a long (and I mean looong) stretch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I think the point people keep overlooking is that Kanaxai was likely in some sort of slumber prior to the Jade Wind, hence why there are no records of Oni appearing. Afterward, when the Jade Reavers excavated him, they just happened to accidentally awaken him, thus causing the Outcasts and the Oni we see today.

Possible, but then one has to wonder - what caused him to go into a slumber?

Seri · Jul 01, 2009, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Slightly off topic but can you guys do an Oni/Kanaxai rally? :P

On topic, I have a suspicion that Oni are linked someway to Shiro (and thus also to Abaddon).

All oni (I believe) have the same elite, shadow shroud (which is an interesting elite at best and would be interesting to see why it fits only the oni). Now there are two bosses in the game where we can capture this elite (oni bosses of course)

The first one to mention is hard to prove because it is found in the Raisu Palace mission when Shiro is taking it over, it is hard because it is a bound spirit thing, it does however raise some interesting questions.

The second one is easier, Shrouded Oni found in the Unwaking Waters mission, who aids the afflicted into fighting you.

Anyways thats my theory it is weak at best but there you go.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 01, 2009, 07:54 PM // 19:54

For the Bound Spirit, they are spirits of dead creatures. It is possible that the Oni Bound Spirit is a spirit of an Oni bound into a Oni-shaped Shiro'ken. Shiro'kens are made from metal and flesh. So not surprising. Either way, not usable as a connection between Oni and Shiro.

And the Shrouded Oni is found in the Unwaking Waters explorable, far from the Shiro'ken (there is no afflicted there) and is behind a large group of Outcasts (and saltspray dragons/other fish).