Curse

Konig Des Todes · Jul 12, 2009, 10:07 AM // 10:07

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Whereas, the way you were saying it, it seemed as if you were saying the Great Dwarf is just the leader of the pantheon to the Dwarves.

Leader? No. No, that is not what I mean. What I mean by Patron God is that it is the god worshiped over the other gods. Sparta's patron god was Ares, Athen's patron god was Athena, etc. etc.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

If I were to take the liberty of modifying your definition of patron, it would be:

It means the God which is worshiped while acknowledging/knowing of other Gods which are not worshiped due to preference.

Modified part in bold, obviously.

Eh... I would word it differently, but basically, yes.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Technically speaking..We don't really know enough about the nature of the Dwarves' views towards the Five Gods to know if they view them as being real, actual Gods.

...

my initial sentence says, we don't really know enough about the nature of their beliefs to say how the human Gods factor into their religion, or if they even do at all, besides the noted acknowledgment.

True, which is why I was trying to not make it sound like fact, but highly possible. But we do know - at the very least - that their leader, Jalis, acknowledges Grenth's existence.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I don't completely shut out the option, I just try to shuffle it into the backroom, outside of prying eyes. Spectators leave with different views, and talk about that which they spectated, distorting things. As a matter of fact, I noticed something interesting about the Seers that may have been distorted by spectators, including ourselves, but that's something to discuss in another topic.

I prefer to bring it up where needed (i.e., talking about Abaddon's predecessor) but remind others that it is not fact.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

*shrug* If any of us can pull up a source that states something in regards to the Great Dwarf creating the world, perhaps.

The dwarves are believed - though not confirmed (to my memory at least) - to be one of the oldest races, possibly on par in elder-ness as the Charr, Seer, Mursaat, and Forgotten. Though, again, not confirmed.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Balthazar's parents

What source says Balthy's parents are gods? As of how we know gods gain status, I'd say that all three parents of Balthazar and Menzies were no more then demi-gods.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

(The Mists)

The Mists is a god?

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I excluded "Lyssa's parents" because I found nothing to suggest the two being sisters in the traditional sense. Although admittedly I did not do very thorough digging into the matter.

I always thought of Lyssa has Siamese twins, or just a being with sister split personalities.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

And my personal belief is that the Gods no longer are, in the usual sense of being. Rather, they have integrated into the Mists, to cease the bloodshed as others attempt to usurp their position and destroy the peace they have formed between themselves. Hence possibly the reason Kormir doesn't appear to intervene whatsoever in Elona when Palawa seizes control, or at all in the 250 year gap between the present and GW2. Which may be why the worship of the Great Dwarf has waned over the centuries, he got a headstart on his own personal "Exodus" prior to the human Gods.

Interesting theory, but something tells me "no." Though, as your theory has no backing, I have no backing, oh, except this:

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Originally Posted by The Movement of the World;Guilds

The guilds of Tyria have grown and expanded, despite the destruction of the Battle Isles. Balthazar helped raise a new temple in Lion's Arch, stepping on the hearthstone of the construction and opening a gate there to the Mists, so that heroes of each world could compete in contest. But these guilds are not racially aligned as they were in the past—no longer restricted merely to humans, they accept heroes of all societies into their halls.

Gmr Leon · Jul 12, 2009, 10:48 AM // 10:48

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I prefer to bring it up where needed (i.e., talking about Abaddon's predecessor) but remind others that it is not fact.

And obviously I don't think you do a very good job of it.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

What source says Balthy's parents are gods? As of how we know gods gain status, I'd say that all three parents of Balthazar and Menzies were no more then demi-gods.

At least one of them has to be. That is, that's generally how it goes whenever we get people like Menzies that appear to be demiGods, or, you know, just because of the half-brother thing. Most assume that if Balthazar's parent(s) was(were) a God(s, esses), it passed on to him, and his parent just happened to engage in procreative actions with another, most likely mortal person.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

The Mists is a god?

Well, as a friend and I were discussing, you could basically say that all of the modern monotheistic religions worship the Big Bang. The Mists started everything, as far as we know, so you could say that it's sort of an indirect, non-sentient sort of God/Goddess. Technically, it hasn't a gender.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Interesting theory, but something tells me "no." Though, as your theory has no backing, I have no backing, oh, except this:

I'm well aware of that quoted section, but it just seems so very sketchy..When we need the Gods assistance, they don't directly provide it. Oh, but you screw up their entertainment? Oh, OH, THEN, THEN, they intervene. Doesn't that just strike you as a bit screwy? I mean, really, they couldn't just give Kormir their blessing, then go beat the Realm of Torment and Nightfall out of Abaddon, and then let her run into Abaddon's essence? Really, they couldn't do that tiny little thing, to an already weakened God? What. The. Hell?

My main backing lies simply in Kormir's sudden inaction after her usurping Abaddon's position. Really, who is Lyssa's Muse talking to in the Gate of Madness? I think that's my question to the Gods as a whole now.

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Originally Posted by Lyssa's Muse

This is your world, now. This is your decision. You must make the choice that only a mortal could make.

Kormir? The players, i.e. humanity? Who is it directed to?

Konig Des Todes · Jul 12, 2009, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

At least one of them has to be. That is, that's generally how it goes whenever we get people like Menzies that appear to be demiGods, or, you know, just because of the half-brother thing. Most assume that if Balthazar's parent(s) was(were) a God(s, esses), it passed on to him, and his parent just happened to engage in procreative actions with another, most likely mortal person.

Possible, but I feel like this idea goes too far from what we know as fact, to relating it too much with Greek/Roman religion (only those two religions, off the top of my head, had the concept of a demi-god. In what I know of Norse and asian polytheistic religions, a child of a god is a god, no matter who is the other parent).

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

The Mists started everything, as far as we know, so you could say that it's sort of an indirect, non-sentient sort of God/Goddess. Technically, it hasn't a gender.

Fair enough.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I'm well aware of that quoted section, but it just seems so very sketchy..When we need the Gods assistance, they don't directly provide it. Oh, but you screw up their entertainment? Oh, OH, THEN, THEN, they intervene. Doesn't that just strike you as a bit screwy? I mean, really, they couldn't just give Kormir their blessing, then go beat the Realm of Torment and Nightfall out of Abaddon, and then let her run into Abaddon's essence? Really, they couldn't do that tiny little thing, to an already weakened God? What. The. Hell?

I think that they believe that if they were to do anything major (like fight a god again), it would do more harm than good because, unlike when we fought Abaddon, when the gods fought him - well, just look at the Desolation and Crystal Desert. After the constant mishaps that happened, they probably thought that their power did more harm to lesser beings and the land around them, than it did good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

My main backing lies simply in Kormir's sudden inaction after her usurping Abaddon's position. Really, who is Lyssa's Muse talking to in the Gate of Madness? I think that's my question to the Gods as a whole now.

Kormir? The players, i.e. humanity? Who is it directed to?

I would have to say that it's really a choice only a creature could make. Perhaps they fear another deity-like-entity gaining more power, so they phrase it to mean mortals (i.e., non-Menzies/God/Dhuum/Great Destroyer level), but in reality anything who has the courage (or insanity/desire for power) could gain the power. Kormir just hopped in first.

A.K.A. She was the most couragous/foolhardy of them all.

Gmr Leon · Jul 12, 2009, 11:17 PM // 23:17

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Possible, but I feel like this idea goes too far from what we know as fact, to relating it too much with Greek/Roman religion (only those two religions, off the top of my head, had the concept of a demi-god. In what I know of Norse and asian polytheistic religions, a child of a god is a god, no matter who is the other parent).

Well, technically, the human Gods are actually fairly similar to the Greek Gods, prior to the Exodus. In how they actually interacted with the mortals, testing them, smiting them, and the general Godly stuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I think that they believe that if they were to do anything major (like fight a god again), it would do more harm than good because, unlike when we fought Abaddon, when the gods fought him - well, just look at the Desolation and Crystal Desert. After the constant mishaps that happened, they probably thought that their power did more harm to lesser beings and the land around them, than it did good.

That has occurred to me before, but honestly, he was in shackles. I can understand waiting for the right person to come along to take his essence and become a new God/Goddess, but I fail to understand why they couldn't just strike the killing blow so that the person in question could absorb the essence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I would have to say that it's really a choice only a creature could make. Perhaps they fear another deity-like-entity gaining more power, so they phrase it to mean mortals (i.e., non-Menzies/God/Dhuum/Great Destroyer level), but in reality anything who has the courage (or insanity/desire for power) could gain the power. Kormir just hopped in first.

A.K.A. She was the most couragous/foolhardy of them all.

I think it's already known that I don't share the view that a deity can take into itself the essence/power of another God/Goddess due to already being at the limit of the amount of the Mists contained within their soul.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 13, 2009, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Well, technically, the human Gods are actually fairly similar to the Greek Gods, prior to the Exodus. In how they actually interacted with the mortals, testing them, smiting them, and the general Godly stuff.

Except that the greek gods, like all other gods in reality's religions, lived on another plane of existence while the Tyrian gods lived among their creations. If you find them similar just by what you said, then just about all polytheistic religions (that I've look at with more than a glance at least) are similar to the GW gods.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

That has occurred to me before, but honestly, he was in shackles. I can understand waiting for the right person to come along to take his essence and become a new God/Goddess, but I fail to understand why they couldn't just strike the killing blow so that the person in question could absorb the essence.

Only thing that comes to mind is "a test" - not only killing an evil entity to save the world that "could easily kill" the adventurer, but also seeing if the person would walk into the essence of the creature's own free will.

Gmr Leon · Jul 13, 2009, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Except that the greek gods, like all other gods in reality's religions, lived on another plane of existence while the Tyrian gods lived among their creations. If you find them similar just by what you said, then just about all polytheistic religions (that I've look at with more than a glance at least) are similar to the GW gods.

Er..Wasn't Mount Olympus supposed to be somewhere on Earth? And, you know, home of the Greek Gods? By that, one could say they lived on the same plane, and amongst their creations. Unless you know something about Greek religion that I don't, that would suggest to me that they lived on the same plane of existence as their creations.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Only thing that comes to mind is "a test" - not only killing an evil entity to save the world that "could easily kill" the adventurer, but also seeing if the person would walk into the essence of the creature's own free will.

Aside from the test part, it would still have been a matter of free will to walk into the essence.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 13, 2009, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Er..Wasn't Mount Olympus supposed to be somewhere on Earth? And, you know, home of the Greek Gods? By that, one could say they lived on the same plane, and amongst their creations. Unless you know something about Greek religion that I don't, that would suggest to me that they lived on the same plane of existence as their creations.

Somewhat on earth - it was supposedly the tallest mountain and also invisible to mortal eyes (and just plain inaccessible to mortals) - if I am not mistaken. The top of Mount Olympus was so high up it reached into the heavens and thus, into a different "plane" - so to speak. Still very much separate from humanity.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Aside from the test part, it would still have been a matter of free will to walk into the essence.

Which would be the "choice only a mortal can make."

draxynnic · Jul 13, 2009, 10:36 AM // 10:36

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

pa⋅tron
–noun
1. a person who is a customer, client, or paying guest, esp. a regular one, of a store, hotel, or the like.
2. a person who supports with money, gifts, efforts, or endorsement an artist, writer, museum, cause, charity, institution, special event, or the like: a patron of the arts; patrons of the annual Democratic dance.
3. a person whose support or protection is solicited or acknowledged by the dedication of a book or other work.
4. patron saint.
5. Roman History. the protector of a dependent or client, often the former master of a freedman still retaining certain rights over him.
6. Ecclesiastical. a person who has the right of presenting a member of the clergy to a benefice.

It's the fourth. Basically, saints kinda take the role in a monotheist structure that lesser deities do in polytheism - providing a host of divine entities that may not be as powerful as the big guy(s), but who are also more focussed on their responsibility than the big picture.

That said, it's mainly a genre term rather than general English, but it's derived from the same idea as gives us patron saints.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Kind of like the deal with Christians and Muslims, that is to say, they know about the existence of Allah, as a concept, and as a belief in Allah, but they choose to believe that God is the one true God, the real one, in other words.

Possibly not the best example, since technically they're the same god, although fundamentalists (read:idiots) on both sides will deny it 'til they're blue in the face.

Christianity and Buddhism might be a better example. :P

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I excluded "Lyssa's parents" because I found nothing to suggest the two being sisters in the traditional sense. Although admittedly I did not do very thorough digging into the matter.

Apart from being described as twins, their isn't really. It's possible that she's a primordial god, and whatever process normally produces one god happened to produce two instead - kind of like a binary star system being made from a single accretion disk.

In a similar manner, Balthazar and Menzies relationship could be that Menzies was something 'left over' from Balthazar's manifestation that got mixed in with something else before fully manifesting.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Aside from the test part, it would still have been a matter of free will to walk into the essence.

On the other hand, they may have wanted to foster the sense of urgency by letting the mortals think it was wholly up to them.

Or there could be some other good reason they couldn't act directly - the Realm of Torment may have been hostile to them, for instance, so any overt use of power could have simply resulted in an equal and opposite reaction. Perhaps they were worried that striking Abaddon directly would result in the breaking of the chains entirely, while (divinely augmented?) mortals might have just the right level to defeat Abaddon while minimising the risk of releasing him instead.

Gmr Leon · Jul 13, 2009, 09:44 PM // 21:44

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Originally Posted by draxynnic

It's the fourth. Basically, saints kinda take the role in a monotheist structure that lesser deities do in polytheism - providing a host of divine entities that may not be as powerful as the big guy(s), but who are also more focused on their responsibility than the big picture.

That's what I was thinking as I looked over the definitions, actually. Well, as the closest thing to what we were saying, mainly, but nevertheless it caught my attention.

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Originally Posted by Draxynnic

Possibly not the best example, since technically they're the same god, although fundamentalists (read:idiots) on both sides will deny it 'til they're blue in the face.

Even those that aren't fundamentalists tend to think their God isn't the same as Allah, hence why I said that, but yeah, they more or less are and may as well be the same. (No matter what anyone says, both are rather savage in the earlier years.)

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Originally Posted by Draxynnic

Christianity and Buddhism might be a better example. :P

Except that Buddhists don't exactly worship a deity, from my understanding of it. That, and they encourage thought i.e. meditation, whereas Christianity doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Draxynnic

Apart from being described as twins, their isn't really. It's possible that she's a primordial god, and whatever process normally produces one god happened to produce two instead - kind of like a binary star system being made from a single accretion disk.

In a similar manner, Balthazar and Menzies relationship could be that Menzies was something 'left over' from Balthazar's manifestation that got mixed in with something else before fully manifesting.

First thought: Hey, isn't there a quote by Bahltek about this, that supports my own ideas?
Second thought: Great, now he's got me thinking of sentient and sapient stellar entities.
Third thought: And now I'm thinking of Futurama where Bender meets God.

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Originally Posted by Draxynnic

Or there could be some other good reason they couldn't act directly - the Realm of Torment may have been hostile to them, for instance, so any overt use of power could have simply resulted in an equal and opposite reaction. Perhaps they were worried that striking Abaddon directly would result in the breaking of the chains entirely, while (divinely augmented?) mortals might have just the right level to defeat Abaddon while minimising the risk of releasing him instead.

Weren't the "chains" more like laser chains? That is, once you beat down his hands, you can hit the power switch to reactivate them. They definitely didn't seem like your traditional chains, although that may be due to game mechanics. The reason I mention that is because his hands seemed to have broken the chains entirely when we began the fight.

Also..Shouldn't the gates have helped (should he escape) slow him down as he attempted to escape..Er..However he would have escaped. It's never very clear on if he wanted to escape via spatial movement, or through planar fusion. Although it seems the latter would be more likely. Maybe a loophole in the gate system..

To think, my initial thoughts were merely that because they may be beings with large amounts of the Mists within their souls, they might as well be an/the aspect of the Mists (i.e. galaxy/nebula/whathaveyou) that they would simply tear integrate into him, destroy themselves in the process forming new Gods/Goddesses, or something completely different. Only part that goes against this is why didn't it happen in the first fight? And my explanation would my idea regarding the Exodus, and their semi-integration into the Mists itself.

draxynnic · Jul 14, 2009, 11:15 AM // 11:15

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

First thought: Hey, isn't there a quote by Bahltek about this, that supports my own ideas?

Is that the one about how the actions of the gods are written in the stars, an ever-changing?

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

]Second thought: Great, now he's got me thinking of sentient and sapient stellar entities.

First example I could think of of a way to be 'born' and potentially to have 'siblings' without having actual parents.

Although it possibly is a good analogy for demons (and possibly gods) coalescing out of the Mists.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Weren't the "chains" more like laser chains? That is, once you beat down his hands, you can hit the power switch to reactivate them. They definitely didn't seem like your traditional chains, although that may be due to game mechanics. The reason I mention that is because his hands seemed to have broken the chains entirely when we began the fight.

The chains don't need to be physical in nature to potentially be disrupted - in a more permanent fashion than seen in the mission - by direct use of divine power.

In short, really... we don't know WHAT their reasons were for not intervening directly. Maybe their reasons were petty... but maybe they had really, really good reasons.