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Old Jul 10, 2009, 07:28 PM // 19:28   #1
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Default The Old Gods: Who Are They?

First, if this has been posted before, please close.

There seems to be some discrepancies between "Ecology of the Charr" and "The Guild Wars Manuscripts."

In fact, "Movement of the World" even hints at this, including the quote: "Never trust the past. There is too much forgotten, too many things hidden beneath the sand of ages. Even your own memory can lie to you..." - Decimus, the Historian

So the problem I have is, according to the Manuscripts, the Old Gods did everything: They sent the Forgotten here, they gave all the races (including Charr, even Imps and Minotaurs) magic, they either created Tyria or helped create it.

But now, with "Ecology of the Charr", we learn that the Charr either came before the Forgotten, or sometime after, confining the Forgotten to the Crystal Desert. We also know the Charr reject the Old Gods.

Considering the fact that there is a history in Guild Wars of "false gods" (the Unseen Ones, the Titans), who are the "Old Gods"? Did they really do everything listed in the Manuscripts, or were they just powerful beings, maybe even once humans, whose Avatars still effect life on Tyria?


EDIT: GmrLeon has a great idea about the gods and the mists, but it really doesn't address my specific questions, like why the Charr rejected the Old Gods, and how the new races (Norn, Sylvari, Asura) view them.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10332505

EDIT: For reference http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods_of_Tyria

Last edited by Mordakai; Jul 10, 2009 at 08:05 PM // 20:05..
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Old Jul 10, 2009, 07:39 PM // 19:39   #2
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The True Gods, also known as the Old Gods, are the five (after Nightfall, six) gods that are the most commonly worshiped gods in Tyria. They are the beings who, in the religion of Humans and other advanced races, created the world of Tyria, gave magic to the races, and who bestow the Favor of the Gods.

Their other title, the Old Gods, is given because they have left the world of Tyria during the Exodus at year 0. In the timeline BE stands for Before Exodus and AE stands After Exodus.

In short the title Old Gods refers to the fact that it was the time when the gods walked Tyria like mortals.

The Charr were originally an atheist race that sought to fight against the True Gods, but when they were beaten back by the Humans who used the help of the True Gods, the Charr sought their own gods.

Last edited by Edge Igneas; Jul 10, 2009 at 07:47 PM // 19:47..
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Old Jul 10, 2009, 07:47 PM // 19:47   #3
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Originally Posted by Edge Igneas View Post
I believe the "old gods" refers to the current 5, however the difference is that it was a time when the gods walked Tyria like mortals.
Right, I guess I should be clearer: I know the names of the Old Gods, I'm just curious as to people's thoughts of their origin. Are they from the mists? Are they just powerful beings, maybe even once human? Did they really create Tyria, or is that just a story told by humans?

Not all races believe in the old gods. Dwarves have the Great Dwarf. Norn have their nature spirits. Charr don't have gods, Sylvari have the "Dream of Dreams", not sure what Asura believe (a more practical "science" like view of life?)

EDIT: Sigh, I should do more research. Even though the Dwarves worship the Great Dwarf, they still at least reference the Old Gods, specifically Dwayna: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Attack_on_Jalis%27s_Camp

"Dwayna, why would you take my brother? We had come to terms, he and I. I had forgiven him. What am I to do now?"

(although this quote could be attributed to the fact that Uril worshipped Dwayna, and Jalis is paying respect to his brothers religion)

Last edited by Mordakai; Jul 10, 2009 at 08:07 PM // 20:07..
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Old Jul 10, 2009, 07:54 PM // 19:54   #4
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Originally Posted by Mordakai View Post
Right, I guess I should be clearer: I know the names of the Old Gods, I'm just curious as to people's thoughts of their origin. Are they from the mists? Are they just powerful beings, maybe even once human? Did they really create Tyria, or is that just a story told by humans?

Not all races believe in the old gods. Dwarves have the Great Dwarf. Norn have their nature spirits. Charr don't have gods, Sylvari have the "Dream of Dreams", not sure what Asura believe (a more practical "science" like view of life?)
The gods left for the Mists after Abaddon fell. There is no origin

You cannot be sure, from my understanding each race has its own particular belief, and they do not connect. Perhaps the true gods did create Tyria, or maybe they did not. We cannot know because the whole game is played from the human point of view, and it makes the image that our gods are the superior and real ones. But the dwarves have their own image as well, and seems just as true as the human one.

Personally I think its a mess, and a pretty poorly done history.
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Old Jul 10, 2009, 08:02 PM // 20:02   #5
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Originally Posted by Edge Igneas View Post
Personally I think its a mess, and a pretty poorly done history.
Yeah, it's a mess, and it's going to get a lot messier with GW2. There's going to be 5 races, either each getting their magic from the old gods whether they like it or not, or each with their own source of magic.
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Old Jul 10, 2009, 08:40 PM // 20:40   #6
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I think it would be even more sweet if our characters were somehow revealed in GW2 to be "harbingers" of the mists, or, vital "balance keepers". This of coarse, only refers to our "First generation" characters (GW1). And perhaps in GW2 our characters will be the ones who started a whole great plan by the "Ture Gods" in the mists.

We did, after all, kill; Abbadon, Shiro, The Great Destroyer, Varesh, "The Hunger" ( a possible fully formed being created from the mists by abbadon himself?) and the Lych. As well as close the door of Komalie, stop the Vortex from swallowing Elona, and Ascend.

It may just me drying to to dig too deep, but I'm pretty sure what our characters did in GW was orchistrated by the 5 gods themselvs in attempts to "Balance out" Tyria, Cantha and Elona. Also, to perhaps give the world a fighting chance when these Dragons awake in GW2, cause it sounds like its a serious deal.

(not to mention Palawa Joko comming back, that sneaky little prick!)

To sum this up even more, I believe our characters were the purest form of pure ever created. Meaning that we were not "all seeing", we could be tricked ( which we were, twice -.-) and manipulated; but still able to piece together the "larger picture" without the need of gods.
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Old Jul 10, 2009, 11:16 PM // 23:16   #7
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Originally Posted by Mordakai View Post
Yeah, it's a mess, and it's going to get a lot messier with GW2. There's going to be 5 races, either each getting their magic from the old gods whether they like it or not, or each with their own source of magic.
I don't think the Gods gave magic to every race, personally. The Ecology of the Charr seems to imply this by the humans ability to push the Charr back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ecology of the Charr
Then, the humans came, an infestation caused by beings called Gods that had been enemies to the Charr since the beginnings of history. The humans worshiped and revered these gods, and in return were given magic the likes of which the Charr had never before.
Also, technically, the Ecology also gives a reason as to why the Charr reject the human Gods:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ecology of the Charr
Before the time of the humans, it is said the Charr had no gods, no concept of divine beings with more power than themselves. They knew of Melandru, and even had legends that described how she created the world. But to the Charr, these beings were not to be worshiped or feared–they were to be fought, and if possible, destroyed.
In other words, they reject them as beings to be worshiped, not as existing. Instead, they view them just as it says, beings to be fought, and destroyed. I'll try and expand on this a bit later, as obviously this is an area I find particularly interesting.
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Old Jul 10, 2009, 11:24 PM // 23:24   #8
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Perhaps it is a little messy, but so is ours in real life. Multiple religions each have there own god that created the world. And there have many many religions and gods throughout the life of our world. Who knows, perhaps the big bang created Tyria as well lol... Unless they outright tell us, it's up for creative interpretation, have fun with it .


On a side note... Grenth has UW, Balthazar has FoW, Abbadon has the realm of the torment, Melandru perhaps created earth, only thing left to figure out is what Dwayna/Lyssa created.

OH and btw, the guild wars manual that came with proph when i got it, does have the "Old Gods" listed as Grenth Balthazar, Melandru, Dwayna and Lyssa

Last edited by nvmu; Jul 10, 2009 at 11:40 PM // 23:40..
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Old Jul 11, 2009, 12:03 AM // 00:03   #9
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Originally Posted by Mordakai View Post
There seems to be some discrepancies between "Ecology of the Charr" and "The Guild Wars Manuscripts."
Oh, there are many. Crystal Sea/Desert being the biggest one - which is reoccuring and questions if there was a Desert before the Sea was gone, or if it was just a mistake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordakai View Post
In fact, "Movement of the World" even hints at this, including the quote: "Never trust the past. There is too much forgotten, too many things hidden beneath the sand of ages. Even your own memory can lie to you..." - Decimus, the Historian
Of course it says this, this is less of "pointing out discrepancies" as it is more of saying "hey, we're changing some things of the past"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordakai View Post
So the problem I have is, according to the Manuscripts, the Old Gods did everything: They sent the Forgotten here, they gave all the races (including Charr, even Imps and Minotaurs) magic, they either created Tyria or helped create it.
Questionable. Many "non-sentient" beings use magic, yet the History of Tyria says only sentient beings were given magic. Just like how the Charr didn't have magic until they found the Titans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordakai View Post
But now, with "Ecology of the Charr", we learn that the Charr either came before the Forgotten, or sometime after, confining the Forgotten to the Crystal Desert. We also know the Charr reject the Old Gods.
I'd say it's not saying they came before or after - but leaving that part in the dark. But instead it is saying that the Charr, like the Mursaat, Seers, and Forgotten (and even Titans) are the oldest known races on Tyria.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordakai View Post
Considering the fact that there is a history in Guild Wars of "false gods" (the Unseen Ones, the Titans), who are the "Old Gods"? Did they really do everything listed in the Manuscripts, or were they just powerful beings, maybe even once humans, whose Avatars still effect life on Tyria?
One needs to know that, when wondering what the "gods" really are, that it is different from the common idea of a god - which would be a perfect unkillable being. In this aspect, it is not the gods that are similar to the common idea of a god, but instead the essence of the god (i.e., what cannot be destroyed, that which Kormir took herself). The gods were, seemingly, all once mortals who gained power in some way - at least four gods (Kormir, Abaddon, Grenth, and another *for the Great Dwarf [read below]*) had predecessors. It is possible that there are multiple generations going back to the beginning of time - as the gods were said to be the first creatures out of the Mists (but note: It never said the current gods were the first creatures).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordakai View Post
EDIT: GmrLeon has a great idea about the gods and the mists, but it really doesn't address my specific questions, like why the Charr rejected the Old Gods, and how the new races (Norn, Sylvari, Asura) view them.
How the new races view the gods is below. Why the Charr reject them - it is in their nature. And the grand thing about religion is that it is choice to follow a god or not. No matter which "world" or religion you go to, no "real" gods or deities force their followers to worship them. The only ones who did this in Guild Wars were the Mursaat. (Which is actually, a debatable thing!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge Igneas View Post
The True Gods, also known as the Old Gods, are the five (after Nightfall, six) gods that are the most commonly worshiped gods in Tyria. They are the beings who, in the religion of Humans and other advanced races, created the world of Tyria, gave magic to the races, and who bestow the Favor of the Gods.

Their other title, the Old Gods, is given because they have left the world of Tyria during the Exodus at year 0. In the timeline BE stands for Before Exodus and AE stands After Exodus.
Good job on quoting the wiki article which I revamped. This is just a summary of what we know and is not, technically, 100% canon due to it being what we know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordakai View Post
Right, I guess I should be clearer: I know the names of the Old Gods, I'm just curious as to people's thoughts of their origin. Are they from the mists? Are they just powerful beings, maybe even once human? Did they really create Tyria, or is that just a story told by humans?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordakai View Post
Dwarves have the Great Dwarf.
Ah, tah tah tah! Wrong! The Great Dwarf is their patron god. The Dwarves still worship the Old/True/Five/Six Gods, but add on another god. This is proven by Jalis' dialogue in Thunderhead Keep and the quest in Eye of the North where Orozar's brother dies. It is likely that the Great Dwarf was once part of the pantheon, but like Abaddon, Dhuum, and Abaddon's unknown predecessor (likely to be named Arachnia), was overthrown (I believe by Balthazar).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordakai View Post
Norn have their nature spirits.
Which very well may be just another set of avatars of the true gods. There are only 6 confirmed "good" animal spirits - one (Raven) is tied to the same things as Grenth, it is possible the others are as well.

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Originally Posted by Mordakai View Post
Sylvari have the "Dream of Dreams", not sure what Asura believe (a more practical "science" like view of life?)
Dream of Dreams may or may not be a religious thing. And the Eternal Alchemy is similar, imo, to a combination of eastern religions, such as Taoism, Confucianism, and a godless Hinduism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordakai View Post
Sigh, I should do more research. Even though the Dwarves worship the Great Dwarf, they still at least reference the Old Gods, specifically Dwayna: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Attack_on_Jalis%27s_Camp

"Dwayna, why would you take my brother? We had come to terms, he and I. I had forgiven him. What am I to do now?"

(although this quote could be attributed to the fact that Uril worshipped Dwayna, and Jalis is paying respect to his brothers religion)
Ural, not Uril, and Orozar not Jalis. Also, as pointed out before Jalis references Grenth in Thunderhead Keep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge Igneas View Post
The gods left for the Mists after Abaddon fell. There is no origin
There is always an origin. As said, the "first generation" of gods came from the Mists - as everything comes from the mist. This could have taken place millions, billions, trillions, or more years ago, eventually leading through countless generations of "true" gods all the way to the current six.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge Igneas View Post
You cannot be sure, from my understanding each race has its own particular belief, and they do not connect.
WRONG! Human and Forgotten are the same, Dwarven connects to that, even the Norn faith can connect. So does the Asuran (via that quest chain in EN). The Charr know the true gods exist, just don't worship them - another connection. The Centaurs have to believe in the true gods (and to my belief, worship Melandru and/or Balthazar) as a Centaur resides in the Fissure of Woe - another connection. There is a Naga monk boss with a title containing Dwayna - leading to a possible chance that the Naga worship the true gods. Yet another connection.

Most races believe in the True Gods - or there are hints of such - in some shape or form. Even if it is not worshiping them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge Igneas View Post
Perhaps the true gods did create Tyria, or maybe they did not. We cannot know because the whole game is played from the human point of view, and it makes the image that our gods are the superior and real ones. But the dwarves have their own image as well, and seems just as true as the human one.
Already commented on both aspects of this quote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge Igneas View Post
Personally I think its a mess, and a pretty poorly done history.
As there is just one game, it would be. It is possible to become both cleaner and messier as time moves on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nvmu View Post
Perhaps it is a little messy, but so is ours in real life. Multiple religions each have there own god that created the world. And there have many many religions and gods throughout the life of our world.
Off-topic but, there are theories that most (if not all) religions are closer to each other than one would expect - especially the more older religions, and that the gods have just changed a little throughout time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nvmu View Post
On a side note... Grenth has UW, Balthazar has FoW, Abbadon has the realm of the torment, Melandru perhaps created earth, only thing left to figure out is what Dwayna/Lyssa created.
I theorize all realms of the gods reside in the Rift, which is the Guild Wars afterlife. So I doubt that Melandru alone created Tyria (though the Charr do say that Melandru at least had a hand in created the world).

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ecology of the Charr
They knew of Melandru, and even had legends that described how she created the world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvmu View Post
OH and btw, the guild wars manual that came with proph when i got it, does have the "Old Gods" listed as Grenth Balthazar, Melandru, Dwayna and Lyssa
But "old" does not mean that they are the first!

The term "old gods" is used only in Prophecies due to the fact that the gods were - seemingly - distant during the time. This is even more-so in Kryta where the major religion was the Unseen Ones. To the Krytans, the true gods were "old" as they were not the current gods, but gods who were cast aside. To the others, I'd say it is just what I said before (the gods were not as active since the Exodus). Though the term "Old Gods" is not used in Cantha and Elona because the gods were not as close to those continents as they were to Tyrians (especially Orr) so the other locations didn't feel as distant as the Tyrians did (simply due to the difference in change between the closeness of god to human).
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Old Jul 11, 2009, 01:54 AM // 01:54   #10
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Time to shred some things..

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes View Post
Questionable. Many "non-sentient" beings use magic, yet the History of Tyria says only sentient beings were given magic. Just like how the Charr didn't have magic until they found the Titans.
Nothing. Ever. Says. The Titans. Gave. The Charr. Magic. Not only that, but the History of Tyria does not state that only sentient beings were given magic, rather it says intelligent creatures. The difference being that, at least in the case of GW, we, or at least you and I, tend to separate the creatures based on sentience, i.e. having a language, structures, complex community, etc. Anything is capable of having some level of intelligence, but, sentience is much different than common-intelligence, in a sense, it is a higher level of intelligence, or more complex intelligence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
I'd say it's not saying they came before or after - but leaving that part in the dark. But instead it is saying that the Charr, like the Mursaat, Seers, and Forgotten (and even Titans) are the oldest known races on Tyria.
Technically, in the case of the Titans, and I know you placed it in parentheses, they would be one of the oldest known creations by the Gods or a God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
as the gods were said to be the first creatures out of the Mists
Actually..I don't think anything ever states that. I think it's just a general assumption, however, the Mists itself could be viewed as being a creature in a way, so it would have been one of the "first" creatures..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
The only ones who did this in Guild Wars were the Mursaat. (Which is actually, a debatable thing!)
Only your parentheses save you here, as I was going to retort that the Mursaat never force worship of them on anyone. Outlawing the worship of certain Gods does not mean forcing the worship of your Gods on them. This is easily seen by many of the Krytans that still worship the Old Gods in the face of the White Mantle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
The Great Dwarf is their patron god. The Dwarves still worship the Old/True/Five/Six Gods, but add on another god. This is proven by Jalis' dialogue in Thunderhead Keep and the quest in Eye of the North where Orozar's brother dies. It is likely that the Great Dwarf was once part of the pantheon, but like Abaddon, Dhuum, and Abaddon's unknown predecessor (likely to be named Arachnia), was overthrown (I believe by Balthazar).
Nothing ever, ever, indicates that all of the Dwarves worship the human Gods alongside the Great Dwarf. They may acknowledge their existence, as the Charr obviously do, but not worship them. Ural is the exception, not the rule. And, likewise, nothing at all supports the Great Dwarf ever being overthrown by any other God, nor is there any support for the Great Dwarf being Balthazar in another guise.

Quote:
Dream of Dreams may or may not be a religious thing. And the Eternal Alchemy is similar, imo, to a combination of eastern religions, such as Taoism, Confucianism, and a godless Hinduism.
I still don't see why people tend to connect the Dream of Dreams to religion..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Movement of the World
It is unknown how old a Sylvari can become, as they come forth fully mature and show no signs of aging thereafter. Sylvari have no children, no families as such, but each Sylvari feels a special connection with others through what they call the “Dream of Dreams.” In this dream, they commune with the inner mind of the race, learning how to speak, walk, use simple tools, and interact with the world. Thus, when a Sylvari emerges, she knows a great deal more about the world than one might expect.
It's more or less a mass-telepathy, when with their race, and perhaps some form of telepathy with other races. It is difficult to truly say, but it seems entirely separate from religion.

As to the Eternal Alchemy, it seems more or less to be more of an atheist/agnostic thing than anything else. It seems to be the belief that everything in the universe works together in some manner or form, as gears in a machine work together to merely produce the movement of the arms on the clock's face.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
There is always an origin.
Not to some physicists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
Dwarven connects to that
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
WRONG!
For reasons already covered above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
So does the Asuran (via that quest chain in EN).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
WRONG!
Not completely. They are only connected via the Asura's natural curiosity, they merely analyzed the human Gods, they do not worship them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
The Centaurs have to believe in the true gods (and to my belief, worship Melandru and/or Balthazar) as a Centaur resides in the Fissure of Woe - another connection.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
WRONG!
As I said about Ural, that Centaur is more likely to be the exception, rather than the rule.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
Most races believe in the True Gods - or there are hints of such - in some shape or form. Even if it is not worshiping them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
WRONG!
There is a difference between acknowledging, and believing. I can acknowledge the Christian God, but that does not mean I believe in the Christian God's existence, just as I can acknowledge Allah, but that does not mean I believe in Allah's existence. Likewise for any other deities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
I theorize all realms of the gods reside in the Rift, which is the Guild Wars afterlife. So I doubt that Melandru alone created Tyria (though the Charr do say that Melandru at least had a hand in created the world).
Rift does not equal afterlife completely. It's the center of the Mists, with, under your theory, the Gods' realms residing around the Rift, not within it, last I checked. The Underworld being the main afterlife, and the Realm of Torment being the afterlife for the worst of the worst. We haven't any complete confirmation that people are taken to another God's realm dependent on their worship of that God. Ural is the only, slight, evidence of this being a possible case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
Though the term "Old Gods" is not used in Cantha and Elona because the gods were not as close to those continents as they were to Tyrians (especially Orr) so the other locations didn't feel as distant as the Tyrians did (simply due to the difference in change between the closeness of god to human).
A possibility, but not completely viable. Recall that Balthazar did visit Cantha himself, challenging Kaolai, whose spirit now resides in Tahnnakai Temple.
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Old Jul 11, 2009, 04:40 AM // 04:40   #11
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Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
Nothing. Ever. Says. The Titans. Gave. The Charr. Magic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ecology of the Charr
One by one, the legions of the Charr fell beneath the control of these “gods” and their Shamans, and the Charr at last earned new magic, a new means of destroying their human enemies south of the Wall.
This is what I was referring to. Technically, by our wording, we are both wrong. The sentence implies that the Charr had magic before the Titans, and states that the Titans gave Charr magic.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
Not only that, but the History of Tyria does not state that only sentient beings were given magic, rather it says intelligent creatures. The difference being that, at least in the case of GW, we, or at least you and I, tend to separate the creatures based on sentience, i.e. having a language, structures, complex community, etc. Anything is capable of having some level of intelligence, but, sentience is much different than common-intelligence, in a sense, it is a higher level of intelligence, or more complex intelligence.
Technically, sentient=intelligent. What you call sentient is actually a civilized race - which has a majority of things that you mentioned (specifically, language, writing, agriculture, urbanization *settlements*). While what I mean is more of the last three things you said were - more complex intelligence (as technically, everything has intelligence).

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
Technically, in the case of the Titans, and I know you placed it in parentheses, they would be one of the oldest known creations by the Gods or a God.
Hence why I placed it in parenthesis. The Titans are not technically a race.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
Actually..I don't think anything ever states that. I think it's just a general assumption, however, the Mists itself could be viewed as being a creature in a way, so it would have been one of the "first" creatures..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prophecies Manuscripts;Regions and Landscapes;The Underworld
It is said that all forms of life, no matter how simple or complex, can trace their origins back to this one place.
Mis-remembered here, though this is the closest sentence in the section I can think of, I thought there was a statement saying that the first beings to step out of the creation of the universe. I know I read that somewhere - wonder where... probably a long time ago from an inaccurate source.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
Only your parentheses save you here, as I was going to retort that the Mursaat never force worship of them on anyone. Outlawing the worship of certain Gods does not mean forcing the worship of your Gods on them. This is easily seen by many of the Krytans that still worship the Old Gods in the face of the White Mantle.
Technically, the outlawing the worship of the old gods by the White Mantle does mean forcing the worship of Unseen Ones. It seems to me that the "oppression" was light (at least at first) and was getting heavier and heavier. It is seen in some quests that the White Mantle are doing more and more things themselves (like taking over the lionguards' job slowly, and pushing the worship of the old gods to just the Temple of Ages).

You, having hardly doing quests, wouldn't notice this I'm sure. The debatable part I was speaking of was whether it was the will of the Mursaat, or of the White Mantle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
Nothing ever, ever, indicates that all of the Dwarves worship the human Gods alongside the Great Dwarf. They may acknowledge their existence, as the Charr obviously do, but not worship them. Ural is the exception, not the rule. And, likewise, nothing at all supports the Great Dwarf ever being overthrown by any other God, nor is there any support for the Great Dwarf being Balthazar in another guise.
No, nothing supports the Great Dwarf being overthrown - which is why I said It is likely - perhaps I should have said "I believe" twice instead of just near Balthazar. And I didn't mean Ural is "the rule" - but two supports and no denies does imply that the Great Dwarf is more of a patron god than a monotheistic religion.

In fact, the fact that they acknowledge their existence is pure proof that the Great Dwarf is a patron god and not a monotheistic faith. Because if they didn't believe in them, you don't say things like "The left hand a Grenth comes for us!" And you most certainly don't have to worship other gods in order to have a patron god - you just need to acknowledge them.

Thank you, you didn't harm what I said at all there, just had me go more in depth.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
I still don't see why people tend to connect the Dream of Dreams to religion..
Because the faith of the Sylvari is never mentioned, but the Dream of Dreams is, so people instinctively fill in the gap of faith with this Dream of Dreams.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
As to the Eternal Alchemy, it seems more or less to be more of an atheist/agnostic thing than anything else. It seems to be the belief that everything in the universe works together in some manner or form, as gears in a machine work together to merely produce the movement of the arms on the clock's face.
And the gods would be a part of the "gears". Which is also very similar to Taoism, of what my memory recalls. And their "knowledge" side of their culture makes me think of Confucianism. Both Taoism and Confucianism are less of religions than more of beliefs of the universe which replace the necessity of a god.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
Not to some physicists.
The only thing that could possible not have an origin - aside from the monotheistic god - would be time.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
Not completely. They are only connected via the Asura's natural curiosity, they merely analyzed the human Gods, they do not worship them.
Never said they worshiped them, but more of on a similarity to the Charr, and the Dwarves.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
As I said about Ural, that Centaur is more likely to be the exception, rather than the rule.
I should really stop using "believe" but instead "acknowledge" as when I do use believe, you get your panties in a twist. Either way, as I tried to say, it is more of my own theory than a fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
There is a difference between acknowledging, and believing. I can acknowledge the Christian God, but that does not mean I believe in the Christian God's existence, just as I can acknowledge Allah, but that does not mean I believe in Allah's existence. Likewise for any other deities.
Yes, yes, I know all that. However, relating GW's religion to reality's religion, is slightly different. As in GW, we know they exist - we've seen two, and we see their avatars. In reality, it's pure guess. To acknowledge a god in GW is to acknowledge their existence - whereas to acknowledge a god in reality is to acknowledge the faith. Two separate things.

While that doesn't mean acknowledging and believing is the same in GW - which it doesn't - it does mean that the religion knows the gods exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
Rift does not equal afterlife completely. It's the center of the Mists, with, under your theory, the Gods' realms residing around the Rift, not within it, last I checked.
No, my theory is that the Gods' realms reside inside the Rift, and around the Hall of Heroes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
The Underworld being the main afterlife, and the Realm of Torment being the afterlife for the worst of the worst. We haven't any complete confirmation that people are taken to another God's realm dependent on their worship of that God. Ural is the only, slight, evidence of this being a possible case.
You forgot the Fissure of Woe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
A possibility, but not completely viable. Recall that Balthazar did visit Cantha himself, challenging Kaolai, whose spirit now resides in Tahnnakai Temple.
Oh, I didn't mean that the gods never went to the other continents. It seems Lyssa and Abaddon went to Vabbi and elsewhere in Elona and Grenth (and Lyssa?) to Cantha. I meant that the Tyrians were closer to the gods than the other continents - not that the other continents had no contact with the gods.
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Old Jul 11, 2009, 10:53 AM // 10:53   #12
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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes View Post
This is what I was referring to. Technically, by our wording, we are both wrong. The sentence implies that the Charr had magic before the Titans, and states that the Titans gave Charr magic.
Actually, the sentence there, despite the article's claiming to have been copied verbatim, is off. It actually says "learned." That aside, it seems to imply to me merely the provision of the Cauldron of Cataclysm and the how-to-use instructions rather than anything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
Technically, sentient=intelligent. What you call sentient is actually a civilized race - which has a majority of things that you mentioned (specifically, language, writing, agriculture, urbanization *settlements*). While what I mean is more of the last three things you said were - more complex intelligence (as technically, everything has intelligence).
Sentient is much easier than saying "civilized race" over and over though, I'm sure you'd agree. As to your last sentence, I would classify that as being common intelligence. Er..Actually, I'm not completely sure what you're attempting to say with that last sentence, but I think we're basically saying the same thing in different terms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
Mis-remembered here, though this is the closest sentence in the section I can think of, I thought there was a statement saying that the first beings to step out of the creation of the universe. I know I read that somewhere - wonder where... probably a long time ago from an inaccurate source.
Yeah..Nothing I can recall from official sources ever said that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
Technically, the outlawing the worship of the old gods by the White Mantle does mean forcing the worship of Unseen Ones. It seems to me that the "oppression" was light (at least at first) and was getting heavier and heavier. It is seen in some quests that the White Mantle are doing more and more things themselves (like taking over the lionguards' job slowly, and pushing the worship of the old gods to just the Temple of Ages).

You, having hardly doing quests, wouldn't notice this I'm sure. The debatable part I was speaking of was whether it was the will of the Mursaat, or of the White Mantle.
Actually, believe it or not, I have done many of the Krytan quests, but nothing in them suggests to me that the White Mantle are going to kill you for worshiping the True Gods. Besides, if they really wanted to crush worship of the True Gods, they would have destroyed the shrine of Dwayna, and the Temple of the Ages. Not only that, but they're still not forcing the common Krytan to worship the Unseen Ones. It's been quite some time since I did the quests, but I can't recall a single one where you see them gathering up Krytans to take them to a White Mantle temple for indoctrination.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
No, nothing supports the Great Dwarf being overthrown - which is why I said It is likely - perhaps I should have said "I believe" twice instead of just near Balthazar. And I didn't mean Ural is "the rule" - but two supports and no denies does imply that the Great Dwarf is more of a patron god than a monotheistic religion.

In fact, the fact that they acknowledge their existence is pure proof that the Great Dwarf is a patron god and not a monotheistic faith. Because if they didn't believe in them, you don't say things like "The left hand a Grenth comes for us!" And you most certainly don't have to worship other gods in order to have a patron god - you just need to acknowledge them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhenlo
The mountain folk have a belief in what they call the Great Dwarf. Imagine that. A single god. How foolish.
*cough* This suggests that it is a monotheistic faith.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
Thank you, you didn't harm what I said at all there, just had me go more in depth.
Better that I do that than allow misconceptions to run rampant; after all, you know that's the only real reason I do this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
Because the faith of the Sylvari is never mentioned, but the Dream of Dreams is, so people instinctively fill in the gap of faith with this Dream of Dreams.
I suppose, but you would think they'd be more likely to look to the Ventari Tablet for a religious affiliation, rather than the Dream of Dreams.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
And the gods would be a part of the "gears". Which is also very similar to Taoism, of what my memory recalls. And their "knowledge" side of their culture makes me think of Confucianism. Both Taoism and Confucianism are less of religions than more of beliefs of the universe which replace the necessity of a god.
Don't ask me. My only knowledge regarding Asian religions is very limited, mostly to Buddhism, and it's very little in that regard as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
The only thing that could possible not have an origin - aside from the monotheistic god - would be time.
Actually..Some physicists believe that there are multiple universes, perhaps just two, it's not really specified, but that over trillions of years come closer together, until they collide, and reform into new universes every so many trillion years. It never explains where the two came from, but rather suggests that they always existed, and that our universe's origin would only be the origin of one version of our universe, that has always existed, will always exist, but simply change every so many trillion, or beyond that, years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
I should really stop using "believe" but instead "acknowledge" as when I do use believe, you get your panties in a twist.
Hey, if I don't, people will start thinking that every race or creature believes in the Gods, which just isn't accurate. And you're more OCD than I am when it comes to accuracy, at least, on the wikis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
Yes, yes, I know all that. However, relating GW's religion to reality's religion, is slightly different. As in GW, we know they exist - we've seen two, and we see their avatars. In reality, it's pure guess. To acknowledge a god in GW is to acknowledge their existence - whereas to acknowledge a god in reality is to acknowledge the faith. Two separate things.

While that doesn't mean acknowledging and believing is the same in GW - which it doesn't - it does mean that the religion knows the gods exist.
Just because we, as humans, know they do, doesn't mean the other races know they do. It would be akin to saying the Mursaat, Seers, Wardens, or Dredge know they exist. We haven't anything to suggest they know of their actual existence beyond certain races' faith. So, in their case, it would be acknowledging a faith.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
No, my theory is that the Gods' realms reside inside the Rift, and around the Hall of Heroes.
My mistake. Took your drawing in your hypothesis thread and switched up the Hall of Heroes and made it the Rift.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
Oh, I didn't mean that the gods never went to the other continents. It seems Lyssa and Abaddon went to Vabbi and elsewhere in Elona and Grenth (and Lyssa?) to Cantha. I meant that the Tyrians were closer to the gods than the other continents - not that the other continents had no contact with the gods.
Er..Nothing other than the Vabbians strange fixation to Lyssa really suggests she went there, nor does anything suggest Abaddon went to Vabbi. Likewise, nothing actually says Grenth was in Cantha, it doesn't even say that Grenth inspired the Ritualist profession in An Empire Divided.

Oh, and just because I missed this, and I know it will bug you:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
(likely to be named Arachnia
.dat extracts cannot be considered canon until elaborated on by the developers in some way, shape, or form, and it seems possible that they did already in the form of Arachni's Haunt. Although certainly lessened since the concept, it's still a giant spider, which, if Arachnia had been a God (or Goddess), it would have been gigantic anyway.
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Old Jul 11, 2009, 09:35 PM // 21:35   #13
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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes View Post

Ah, tah tah tah! Wrong! The Great Dwarf is their patron god. The Dwarves still worship the Old/True/Five/Six Gods, but add on another god. This is proven by Jalis' dialogue in Thunderhead Keep and the quest in Eye of the North where Orozar's brother dies. It is likely that the Great Dwarf was once part of the pantheon, but like Abaddon, Dhuum, and Abaddon's unknown predecessor (likely to be named Arachnia), was overthrown (I believe by Balthazar).

Just a theory, but perhaps "The Great Dwarf" was the original dwarf, or perhaps at one point was a great king of the dwarfs, and perhaps they took a page from the Egyptians which worshiped their Pharaohs and were thought of/treated as god, even though they still worshiped the Egyptian gods
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Old Jul 11, 2009, 11:16 PM // 23:16   #14
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Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
Actually, the sentence there, despite the article's claiming to have been copied verbatim, is off. It actually says "learned." That aside, it seems to imply to me merely the provision of the Cauldron of Cataclysm and the how-to-use instructions rather than anything else.
Earned or Learned, to me it seems the same. The Charr gained new magic from the Titans.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
Sentient is much easier than saying "civilized race" over and over though, I'm sure you'd agree. As to your last sentence, I would classify that as being common intelligence. Er..Actually, I'm not completely sure what you're attempting to say with that last sentence, but I think we're basically saying the same thing in different terms.
The last sentence was saying that I say sentience is a more complex intelligent - not exactly civilized.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
Actually, believe it or not, I have done many of the Krytan quests, but nothing in them suggests to me that the White Mantle are going to kill you for worshiping the True Gods. Besides, if they really wanted to crush worship of the True Gods, they would have destroyed the shrine of Dwayna, and the Temple of the Ages. Not only that, but they're still not forcing the common Krytan to worship the Unseen Ones. It's been quite some time since I did the quests, but I can't recall a single one where you see them gathering up Krytans to take them to a White Mantle temple for indoctrination.
The Hot Springs Murders - White Mantle taking over the Lionguard's job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prophecies Manuscripts;Regions and Landscapes;Kryta
Travelers to Kryta will find a stark contrast between the fortified, polished-stone buildings of the White Mantle and the thatch-roofed huts of the regular citizens. There is a surprising amount of wealth here, but it is kept in the hands of those who adhere to the doctrines of the Mantle, and this is reflected in the architecture of the region.
Some religious oppression shown right here. Not by death like you are thinking, but still oppression by faith.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Kingdoms of Tyria;The Kingdom of Kryta
There are two types of humans in Kryta: those who worship the mysterious Unseen Ones and those who do not. The worshippers have become known as the White Mantle because of the long white sleeveless robes many of them wear.

It is the responsibility of the White Mantle to oversee the other humans and impose upon them the rules and laws of the Unseen Ones. Those inside the organization receive special privileges (more food, better clothing, access to books) simply for abiding by the rules of the Unseen Ones and carrying out the orders handed down by the White Mantle high priest. To the Krytans the White Mantle are the root of law and order, the protectors or saviors, if you will, of their lands.
More separation, again, based on whether or not they believe in the Unseen Ones.

And as we all know, the White Mantle rule Kryta at the time - and gain more and more control as shown via The Hot Springs Murders quest.

I think there is more dialogue, but harder to find. I could look around for it if you are not convinced. Again, oppression by faith (either you follow the Unseen Ones, or you don't) - but not by death as you claim. But for all we know, if the Mursaat were not mostly wiped out, and the White Mantle leaders with them, it may have eventually led to that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
*cough* This suggests that it is a monotheistic faith.
That actually seems to me to be more of ignorance of a faith. As it there is proof that Jalis - who worships the Great Dwarf - also recognizes Grenth. Although he may not worship the five gods - but instead worships the Great Dwarf - Jalis, and seemingly other dwarves (Orozar and Ural both being two of the "other" dwarves, one worshiping one of the true gods, the other acknowledging his brother's new faith) also acknowledge their existence. While they may not worship the true gods, they acknowledge their existence - which, due to acknowledging the gods' existence, they also cause the Great Dwarf to be their patron god. Now, I know you will say it is still a monotheistic religion, but looking at Mhenlo's quote, to me it is just a simplistic and ignorant wording of "How can they only worship one god?" - in other words, they only worship the Great Dwarf, but still believe in the other gods - or acknowledge their existence for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
I suppose, but you would think they'd be more likely to look to the Ventari Tablet for a religious affiliation, rather than the Dream of Dreams.
I think of the Ventari Tablet as being their "ten commandments" - just the rules set upon them from *to them* a possibly unknown source. Neither the Dream of Dreams nor the tablet, do I see a religious connection... yet.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
Don't ask me. My only knowledge regarding Asian religions is very limited, mostly to Buddhism, and it's very little in that regard as well.
Wasn't asking, was stating. Having gone a little into asian religions in the past, and wanting to go into them more, I have at least noted that much - Buddhism is also like Taoism and Confucianism in that it is more of a way of life than a religion - at least in my eyes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
Actually..Some physicists believe that there are multiple universes, perhaps just two, it's not really specified, but that over trillions of years come closer together, until they collide, and reform into new universes every so many trillion years. It never explains where the two came from, but rather suggests that they always existed, and that our universe's origin would only be the origin of one version of our universe, that has always existed, will always exist, but simply change every so many trillion, or beyond that, years.
I was saying what I believe, not what others believe. Off-topic, won't go into.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
Hey, if I don't, people will start thinking that every race or creature believes in the Gods, which just isn't accurate. And you're more OCD than I am when it comes to accuracy, at least, on the wikis.
While it isn't "accurate" it is highly plausible. Never meant to state those things as fact - but as possibilities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
Just because we, as humans, know they do, doesn't mean the other races know they do. It would be akin to saying the Mursaat, Seers, Wardens, or Dredge know they exist. We haven't anything to suggest they know of their actual existence beyond certain races' faith. So, in their case, it would be acknowledging a faith.
Possible in some race's faith - but do note that I was meaning in terms of the races in which I mentioned prior, which all have a link to the gods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
Er..Nothing other than the Vabbians strange fixation to Lyssa really suggests she went there, nor does anything suggest Abaddon went to Vabbi. Likewise, nothing actually says Grenth was in Cantha, it doesn't even say that Grenth inspired the Ritualist profession in An Empire Divided.
The Vabbian's strange fixation is in fact the (loose) suggestion that she went to Vabbi. And I didn't mean Abaddon went to Vabbi - but to Elona. Same goes for Grenth and Lyssa in Cantha - just very loose possibilities. I never meant it as fact. >_>

Quote:
Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
.dat extracts cannot be considered canon until elaborated on by the developers in some way, shape, or form, and it seems possible that they did already in the form of Arachni's Haunt. Although certainly lessened since the concept, it's still a giant spider, which, if Arachnia had been a God (or Goddess), it would have been gigantic anyway.
Hence why, my dear little bible belt living person, I said "likely" - as in, if Arachnia is canon, that would be the name.

Besides, I think that if anything of Arachnia (physically Arachnia) exists in game, it would be the giant (much larger than Arachni) in Nightfallen Jahai.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nvmu View Post
Just a theory, but perhaps "The Great Dwarf" was the original dwarf, or perhaps at one point was a great king of the dwarfs, and perhaps they took a page from the Egyptians which worshiped their Pharaohs and were thought of/treated as god, even though they still worshiped the Egyptian gods
What we have for knowledge of the Great Dwarf, suggests it/he/she is on par with the true gods.

Used Anvil Rock to create the race of Dwarves, once fought the Great Destroyer (which I believe was not the one we fought, to be honest), lives in the dwarven afterlife (The Great Forge), once used the Anvil of Dragrimmar to craft powerful weapons and armor, the power of the Great Dwarf turns the dwarves to stone, links their minds, and pushes them to both destroy their enemy (the destroyers) and go into isolation (aka a form of insanity! ).

To me, the "rite of the great dwarf" is on par to the creation of the Ethereal margonites by Abaddon and the transformation of Ewan's tribe by Melandru - just Great Dwarf style.
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Old Jul 12, 2009, 03:23 AM // 03:23   #15
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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes View Post
Earned or Learned, to me it seems the same. The Charr gained new magic from the Titans.
Agreed. However, there is a significant difference between earning and learning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
The last sentence was saying that I say sentience is a more complex intelligent - not exactly civilized.
Ah. To me, it would need to be at least moderately civilized. Nothing extremely complex, of course. E.g. Grawl's clothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
The Hot Springs Murders - White Mantle taking over the Lionguard's job.
I never said anything about them not attempting to assert more authority or more control. I'm well aware they've been trying to gain more control in Kryta, but that still does not mean they are forcing worship of the Unseen Ones on the Krytans completely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prophecies Manuscripts;Regions and Landscapes;Kryta
Travelers to Kryta will find a stark contrast between the fortified, polished-stone buildings of the White Mantle and the thatch-roofed huts of the regular citizens. There is a surprising amount of wealth here, but it is kept in the hands of those who adhere to the doctrines of the Mantle, and this is reflected in the architecture of the region.
Some religious oppression shown right here. Not by death like you are thinking, but still oppression by faith.
...op⋅pres⋅sion
  /əˈprɛʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [uh-presh-uhn] Show IPA
Use oppression in a Sentence
–noun
1. the exercise of authority or power in a burdensome, cruel, or unjust manner.
2. an act or instance of oppressing.
3. the state of being oppressed.
4. the feeling of being heavily burdened, mentally or physically, by troubles, adverse conditions, anxiety, etc.
Origin:

Depends on your opinion. I'd be willing to say the Krytan monarchy did the same thing in terms of hoarding the wealth. The only major difference being following their doctrines, which, I wouldn't say is forcing their religion on the Krytans, more like saying, here's a better deal. Regardless, I see your point in that area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Kingdoms of Tyria;The Kingdom of Kryta
There are two types of humans in Kryta: those who worship the mysterious Unseen Ones and those who do not. The worshipers have become known as the White Mantle because of the long white sleeveless robes many of them wear.

It is the responsibility of the White Mantle to oversee the other humans and impose upon them the rules and laws of the Unseen Ones. Those inside the organization receive special privileges (more food, better clothing, access to books) simply for abiding by the rules of the Unseen Ones and carrying out the orders handed down by the White Mantle high priest. To the Krytans the White Mantle are the root of law and order, the protectors or saviors, if you will, of their lands.
More separation, again, based on whether or not they believe in the Unseen Ones.
The first bold part is more of something to shrug off, to me at least. It's not any different than saying something similar about those in a neighborhood who are mainly Muslim or Christian. If the majority is Christian, you say there are those who worship God and those who do not. If the majority is Muslim, you say there are those who worship Allah and those who do not. I suppose I see the point, but with religious diversity being as it is in our world, it's as I said, more of something to shrug off. Guess it would be different if the Bible Belt stereotypes were all true. (Did you know we have our own version of the Vatican?! It's even holier than the real-deal! We live in a theocracy as well, bet you didn't know that!)

As to the second bold part, that's better. However, it still sounds like any government in a way, a theocracy obviously, since the laws are enforced as being the word of the Gods, in this case, Unseen Ones. Still, seeing as we know the Unseen Ones are mortals, it could just be looked at as an oligarchy. That does reinforce the idea of pushing their faith on the Krytans much more than your previous examples, though, in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
I think there is more dialogue, but harder to find. I could look around for it if you are not convinced. Again, oppression by faith (either you follow the Unseen Ones, or you don't) - but not by death as you claim. But for all we know, if the Mursaat were not mostly wiped out, and the White Mantle leaders with them, it may have eventually led to that.
It almost certainly would have. The more control they get over the populace, the more atrocities they can commit without worrying about a backlash.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
While they may not worship the true gods, they acknowledge their existence - which, due to acknowledging the gods' existence, they also cause the Great Dwarf to be their patron god.
See, this is the main point in which I disagree. As you've continually pointed out yourself, religion is different in Tyria as we know the human Gods exist, we've seen two, and we see their avatars. However, just because they acknowledge their existence, or their presence in the world, and we both more or less agree on this, does not mean they worship them. Yet, it is this central point, worship, that makes all the difference. Let's say for instance that I acknowledge the existence of Uranus, Mars, Venus, Neptune, Mercury, Saturnus, Jupiter, Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva, Shakti, Yahweh, God, Allah, the Horned God, the Triple Goddess, the Great Spirit, and the spirits of Nature, whatever, alright? Let's say I select, I dunno, the Great Spirit to worship. Does this make it my patron "God" of sorts? No, it makes it my "God", I don't worship any of the others, despite acknowledging their existence. A minor thing perhaps, but either way...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
Now, I know you will say it is still a monotheistic religion, but looking at Mhenlo's quote, to me it is just a simplistic and ignorant wording of "How can they only worship one god?" - in other words, they only worship the Great Dwarf, but still believe in the other gods - or acknowledge their existence for you.
..It would make my faith or religion monotheistic, as I am only worshiping one divine being. Or let's just break it down:

God
–noun
1. the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.
2. the Supreme Being considered with reference to a particular attribute: the God of Islam.
3. (lowercase) one of several deities, esp. a male deity, presiding over some portion of worldly affairs.
4. (often lowercase) a supreme being according to some particular conception: the god of mercy.
5. Christian Science. the Supreme Being, understood as Life, Truth, Love, Mind, Soul, Spirit, Principle.
6. (lowercase) an image of a deity; an idol.
7. (lowercase) any deified person or object.

mon⋅o⋅the⋅ism
–noun
the doctrine or belief that there is only one God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
I think of the Ventari Tablet as being their "ten commandments" - just the rules set upon them from *to them* a possibly unknown source. Neither the Dream of Dreams nor the tablet, do I see a religious connection... yet.
Right. I could see the Ventari Tablet being a sort of holy doctrine to them though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
While it isn't "accurate" it is highly plausible. Never meant to state those things as fact - but as possibilities.
..And now I have the image of grass believing in the Gods in mind..And immediately after that, fish.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
Hence why, my dear little bible belt living person, I said "likely" - as in, if Arachnia is canon, that would be the name.

Besides, I think that if anything of Arachnia (physically Arachnia) exists in game, it would be the giant (much larger than Arachni) in Nightfallen Jahai.
Right, but people instantly jump from likely to is, was, or will be. Just look at how many people jump on Anet for certain things they've said, where, they probably just said likely. As to what I had said, I meant that if they decided to alter the concept so that it would fit into the game. As it stands now, that's merely a landmark which we took to be something of Arachnia based on .dat extracts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
once fought the Great Destroyer (which I believe was not the one we fought, to be honest)
Right, he destroyed the original, then Primordus created another. Actually, though, that could be a minor possibility, but alas, the only thing to suggest that as even being a possibility is the Tome of the Rubicon's contents.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
once used the Anvil of Dragrimmar to craft powerful weapons and armor,
That's still unconfirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Outrunner Remlok
After many years of searching, I have tracked down an artifact of great import to the Dwarven people...the Anvil of Dragrimmar. Some say the Great Dwarf himself stood at this anvil forging great and powerful weapons, much as he forged our people. Alas, time clouds the stories and the anvil's resting place was lost.
Anet's writers even put up the safeguard of time clouding the stories, but never fear, that's not enough to stop us from assuming it to be fact!
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Old Jul 12, 2009, 04:51 AM // 04:51   #16
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Yeesh, threadsplosion... I need to hurry up and publish something, even if it's done deity by deity...

First, the word I think people are looking for is 'sapience', which is the term that usually applies to roughly human-level intelligence. Sentience simply means "aware of the environment" - a common garden-variety snail is sentient.

Yes, I've been guilty of this one myself.

On the Great Dwarf... the Great Dwarf is what I've been thinking of as a 'first-generation' deity. This simply means that we don't know, nor do we have any hint about what the Great Dwarf's origins are. (As opposed to the second-generation Balthazar, Menzies, and Lyssa, in which we have some hint due to the existence of familial relationships which also implies the existence of parents, and the third-generation gods who replaced other gods. Yes, this does mean Kormir and Abaddon are both third-gen despite one succeeding the other.)

Anyway, what we do know is: According to the Dwarves, the Great Dwarf was at least involved in the creation of the world (which the Charr credit to Melandru) in general, and the dwarves specifically. The Great Dwarf also has the Great Destroyer as his enemy.

This tells us two things by extension. First, the Great Dwarf was a contemporary of the dragons. Since we don't have direct evidence that the other gods were around at the time the dragons were, this might mean that the Great Dwarf is older (at least when it comes to interaction with Tyria) than the Old Gods we know. Second, since the Great Dwarf's nemesis was the Great Destroyer - which was only Primordius's general, not a dragon itself, and it's the ancient dragons, not their minions, who rival the power of the gods - this implies that the Great Dwarf is lower in stature than the gods. Moving into the realm of speculation, this could make him a demigod, an avatar (possibly of Balthazar (or his predecessor, if he has one), Melandru, or a combined avatar of both), a servant of the gods, or, like the dragons, simply a mortal creature of considerable power.

Regarding his current existence - we know that he can still wield power, although he does so through an artifact (which means it could have been a stored spell that survived after his death). We also know that when the Great Destroyer arises, the Great Dwarf does not appear to personally intercede in the battle apart from this - although this, in turn, could be due to the divine noninterference policy that has been in effect since Abaddon's fall. While Jalis declares that the stone dwarves are 'all the Great Dwarf now', a hive-mind of stone dwarves does not seem to be the same entity as that that, in legend, forged the world atop Anvil Rock. It could be that that legend is false, it could be that the stone dwarves are connected to the mind of the Great Dwarf proper within the Mists, or it could be that, as speculated above, the ritual was simply one last fragment of the Great Dwarf's power after he had otherwise been destroyed.

Regarding the White Mantle... I don't think the White Mantle was actually taking over the Lionguard's duties. They were quite happy to have a police force under them to do the gruntwork, after all. The sinister thing about Hot Springs Murders wasn't that the White Mantle were taking over in general... but that the Mantle took over that specific investigation - one where it is implied that it was the Mantle responsible, and that none of the native Krytans were willing to speak the mind - in other words, the Mantle lets the Lionguard handle most cases, but they take over when it involves them, and the people of Kryta know that testifying against the Mantle is not an occupation with good long-term prospects. Hopefully, the hero had the sense to 'misplace' Penelope's testimony before giving the testimonies to Gilead.

In general, the Mantle seem to know better than to overtly suppress the worship of the Five. The method they do use, which has precedent in real-world history, is right there in the manual - the significant and unsubtle difference in wealth and living conditions between those Krytans in the Mantle (and thus worshipping the Unseen) and those that aren't. The inducement to convert is evidently economic rather than by force.
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Old Jul 12, 2009, 05:14 AM // 05:14   #17
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As to the sentience thing, I noted that whenever I was going through all those definitions. Just decided to run with it since I couldn't think of a better term.

Also, about the Great Dwarf, he didn't forge the world on Anvil Rock, rather, he forged the Dwarven race there. As far as I know, there's nothing that suggests the Dwarves believe he created the world, although it would seem likely considering that's usually the case with any monotheistic religion and their God.
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Old Jul 12, 2009, 06:37 AM // 06:37   #18
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Ah. To me, it would need to be at least moderately civilized. Nothing extremely complex, of course. E.g. Grawl's clothing.
Different people have different opinions.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
Depends on your opinion. I'd be willing to say the Krytan monarchy did the same thing in terms of hoarding the wealth. The only major difference being following their doctrines, which, I wouldn't say is forcing their religion on the Krytans, more like saying, here's a better deal. Regardless, I see your point in that area.
It seems to me to be one step short of forcing. To me, instead of being "here's a better deal" it is being more like "Either follow our ways and be wealthy, or don't and be a poor peasant." Basically, bribing to expand their religion - which is sometimes an early step in forcing acts (gaining more power that is, and in this case, power is that of numbers).

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
Did you know we have our own version of the Vatican?! It's even holier than the real-deal! We live in a theocracy as well, bet you didn't know that!
Nor did I care.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
See, this is the main point in which I disagree. As you've continually pointed out yourself, religion is different in Tyria as we know the human Gods exist, we've seen two, and we see their avatars. However, just because they acknowledge their existence, or their presence in the world, and we both more or less agree on this, does not mean they worship them. Yet, it is this central point, worship, that makes all the difference. Let's say for instance that I acknowledge the existence of Uranus, Mars, Venus, Neptune, Mercury, Saturnus, Jupiter, Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva, Shakti, Yahweh, God, Allah, the Horned God, the Triple Goddess, the Great Spirit, and the spirits of Nature, whatever, alright? Let's say I select, I dunno, the Great Spirit to worship. Does this make it my patron "God" of sorts? No, it makes it my "God", I don't worship any of the others, despite acknowledging their existence. A minor thing perhaps, but either way...
I think, the issue here, is a mixture of meaning for the term "patron god" - it seems to me that you view it as the god worshiped more than other gods being worshiped. To me, it means the god which is worshiped while acknowledging/knowing of other gods which could be worshiped without being "blasphemy."

The difference in term, is most likely due to difference in location (as is the issue with many usages of words).

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
mon⋅o⋅the⋅ism
–noun
the doctrine or belief that there is only one God.
Only thing I need to point out there. But I'll explain to save you time of making me explain. Monotheism is the acknowledgment of one god. The Dwarves acknowledge the true gods. Most races do (those previously mentioned to have a connection) Thus, even if they worship one entity, they will never be monotheist because they acknowledge the existence of multiple deities.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
..And now I have the image of grass believing in the Gods in mind..And immediately after that, fish.
If you include the "sentient" plants and fish - then it could be possible! o_0

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
Right, but people instantly jump from likely to is, was, or will be. Just look at how many people jump on Anet for certain things they've said, where, they probably just said likely. As to what I had said, I meant that if they decided to alter the concept so that it would fit into the game. As it stands now, that's merely a landmark which we took to be something of Arachnia based on .dat extracts.
You repeat yourself all the time, and I understand. I merely, unlike you, keep the option open. Never pressing on it, never stating as fact, just a possibility. Dangerous for others - not for me.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
Right, he destroyed the original, then Primordus created another. Actually, though, that could be a minor possibility, but alas, the only thing to suggest that as even being a possibility is the Tome of the Rubicon's contents.
Which we know so little of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
That's still unconfirmed.

Anet's writers even put up the safeguard of time clouding the stories, but never fear, that's not enough to stop us from assuming it to be fact!
Still, the likeliest thing we have on the connection between the Anvil and the Great Dwarf - and I believe you yourself once said on a different topic, which was also unconfirmed, to take it as confirmed because it was said in-game, even if it may be in fact wrong. Over on GWO I believe, on a matter with the Mists. Unless my memory serves me incorrectly - and the case was in the same circumstances.

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Originally Posted by draxynnic View Post
Yeesh, threadsplosion... I need to hurry up and publish something, even if it's done deity by deity...
Yes, you do.

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Originally Posted by draxynnic View Post
First, the word I think people are looking for is 'sapience', which is the term that usually applies to roughly human-level intelligence. Sentience simply means "aware of the environment" - a common garden-variety snail is sentient.
Actually, in terms of "races given magic" I did mean sentient.

Quote:
Originally Posted by draxynnic View Post
On the Great Dwarf... the Great Dwarf is what I've been thinking of as a 'first-generation' deity. This simply means that we don't know, nor do we have any hint about what the Great Dwarf's origins are. (As opposed to the second-generation Balthazar, Menzies, and Lyssa, in which we have some hint due to the existence of familial relationships which also implies the existence of parents, and the third-generation gods who replaced other gods. Yes, this does mean Kormir and Abaddon are both third-gen despite one succeeding the other.)
Which means you place Dwayna, Dhuum, Abaddon's predecessor, and Melandru are first. THough I disagree - I'd add another generation for Kormir (and possible Grenth?), but this is off topic! Somewhat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by draxynnic View Post
Anyway, what we do know is: According to the Dwarves, the Great Dwarf was at least involved in the creation of the world (which the Charr credit to Melandru) in general, and the dwarves specifically. The Great Dwarf also has the Great Destroyer as his enemy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GmrLeon View Post
Also, about the Great Dwarf, he didn't forge the world on Anvil Rock, rather, he forged the Dwarven race there. As far as I know, there's nothing that suggests the Dwarves believe he created the world, although it would seem likely considering that's usually the case with any monotheistic religion and their God.
I think he did get involved with the creation of the world - if he is indeed a first generation god like Melandru is, by Draxynnic's theory. If the "first" generation did contained Melandru, Dhuum, Dwayna, the Great Dwarf, Balthy's predecessor (if it wasn't Mr. Great Dwarf like I believe), Abaddon's predecessor, and Lyssa's predecessor, and if Melandru helped create the world, then I would say they all did. Melandru most likely working mainly on plantlife and the ground. Maybe Mr. Dwarf dealt with mountains and/or underground (caves).

But I feel that this would be better off in it's own thread, personally. Or that this thread has gone off-topic to the point that on-topic feels out of place here. :x

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Originally Posted by draxynnic View Post
This tells us two things by extension. First, the Great Dwarf was a contemporary of the dragons. Since we don't have direct evidence that the other gods were around at the time the dragons were, this might mean that the Great Dwarf is older (at least when it comes to interaction with Tyria) than the Old Gods we know.
Or that the Great Destroyer that the Great Dwarf killed was left after the dragons went to sleep. Or maybe Primordus is the "true" Great Destroyer and the Great Dwarf caused that dragon to go to slumber. Theories, theories, theories, speculations, speculations, speculations.

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Originally Posted by draxynnic View Post
Second, since the Great Dwarf's nemesis was the Great Destroyer - which was only Primordius's general, not a dragon itself, and it's the ancient dragons, not their minions, who rival the power of the gods - this implies that the Great Dwarf is lower in stature than the gods. Moving into the realm of speculation, this could make him a demigod, an avatar (possibly of Balthazar (or his predecessor, if he has one), Melandru, or a combined avatar of both), a servant of the gods, or, like the dragons, simply a mortal creature of considerable power.
Unless, as I mentioned above, Mr. Primordus is the true Great Destroyer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by draxynnic View Post
Regarding his current existence - we know that he can still wield power, although he does so through an artifact (which means it could have been a stored spell that survived after his death). We also know that when the Great Destroyer arises, the Great Dwarf does not appear to personally intercede in the battle apart from this - although this, in turn, could be due to the divine noninterference policy that has been in effect since Abaddon's fall. While Jalis declares that the stone dwarves are 'all the Great Dwarf now', a hive-mind of stone dwarves does not seem to be the same entity as that that, in legend, forged the world atop Anvil Rock. It could be that that legend is false, it could be that the stone dwarves are connected to the mind of the Great Dwarf proper within the Mists, or it could be that, as speculated above, the ritual was simply one last fragment of the Great Dwarf's power after he had otherwise been destroyed.
Nothing to argue here - though I say the last option is most likely to me. I do feel that the Great Dwarf is no more, but once was one of the "old gods."
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Old Jul 12, 2009, 07:46 AM // 07:46   #19
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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes View Post
Which means you place Dwayna, Dhuum, Abaddon's predecessor, and Melandru are first. THough I disagree - I'd add another generation for Kormir (and possible Grenth?), but this is off topic! Somewhat.
"Generation" here is really just a label for "what do we know about their origins" - and in the case of Kormir and Abaddon, what we know is "they replaced a previous god". There is an argument for Kormir being seperate because we know who she was as a mortal and the date of her ascension, and also for Grenth because we know who his predecessor was, but at the point you start putting deities in bins of one the classification system starts to fall apart.

Anyway, been thinking for a while that I really should publish what I've done so far, even if it's incomplete. Just needs an hour or so in the right mood that isn't channeled into that other thesis I'm working on.
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Old Jul 12, 2009, 09:12 AM // 09:12   #20
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Different people have different opinions.
Indeed. My simple is your complex, and your complex is my simple, and Draxynnic's complex is our simple, and Draxynnic's simple is our complex, and Free Runner's simple is your complex, my simple, and Draxynnic's average, and Free Runner's complex is your simple, my moderate, and Draxynnic's complex.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
It seems to me to be one step short of forcing. To me, instead of being "here's a better deal" it is being more like "Either follow our ways and be wealthy, or don't and be a poor peasant." Basically, bribing to expand their religion - which is sometimes an early step in forcing acts (gaining more power that is, and in this case, power is that of numbers).
True, but it's still really an opinion. I think the another idea, had the Mantle stayed in power, might have been to give Mantle members more freedom and land until eventually the peasants would have so little land that the only real choice would be to join them or die due to insufficient crops due to the lack of land. Well, that and a lack of rights to cross through this safer path, or whatever, but it all leads up to the same end-point. Death, bribery, or conversion.

Draxynnic's way of laying it out is the best amongst the both of us, though, I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draxynnic
In general, the Mantle seem to know better than to overtly suppress the worship of the Five. The method they do use, which has precedent in real-world history, is right there in the manual - the significant and unsubtle difference in wealth and living conditions between those Krytans in the Mantle (and thus worshiping the Unseen) and those that aren't. The inducement to convert is evidently economic rather than by force.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
Nor did I care.
Hey, you knew I had to retaliate to that in some manner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
I think, the issue here, is a mixture of meaning for the term "patron god" - it seems to me that you view it as the god worshiped more than other gods being worshiped. To me, it means the god which is worshiped while acknowledging/knowing of other gods which could be worshiped without being "blasphemy."

The difference in term, is most likely due to difference in location (as is the issue with many usages of words).
Actually, the funny thing I noticed..

pa⋅tron
–noun
1. a person who is a customer, client, or paying guest, esp. a regular one, of a store, hotel, or the like.
2. a person who supports with money, gifts, efforts, or endorsement an artist, writer, museum, cause, charity, institution, special event, or the like: a patron of the arts; patrons of the annual Democratic dance.
3. a person whose support or protection is solicited or acknowledged by the dedication of a book or other work.
4. patron saint.
5. Roman History. the protector of a dependent or client, often the former master of a freedman still retaining certain rights over him.
6. Ecclesiastical. a person who has the right of presenting a member of the clergy to a benefice.

Your definition, and my definition, which technically didn't really exist as I just assumed a meaning e.g. leader in this case, don't actually seem to exist according to this. Generally though, I would call Dwayna, to the humans at least, the patron Goddess of the Five True Gods. Whereas, the way you were saying it, it seemed as if you were saying the Great Dwarf is just the leader of the pantheon to the Dwarves. However, I still assert that they are merely a monotheistic religion, albeit one of the only religions of their type in existence that we know of in Tyria.

If I were to take the liberty of modifying your definition of patron, it would be:

It means the God which is worshiped while acknowledging/knowing of other Gods which are not worshiped due to preference.

Modified part in bold, obviously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gmr Leon
mon⋅o⋅the⋅ism
–noun
the doctrine or belief that there is only one God.
Only thing I need to point out there. But I'll explain to save you time of making me explain. Monotheism is the acknowledgment of one god. The Dwarves acknowledge the true gods. Most races do (those previously mentioned to have a connection) Thus, even if they worship one entity, they will never be monotheist because they acknowledge the existence of multiple deities.
..Technically speaking..We don't really know enough about the nature of the Dwarves' views towards the Five Gods to know if they view them as being real, actual Gods. Kind of like the deal with Christians and Muslims, that is to say, they know about the existence of Allah, as a concept, and as a belief in Allah, but they choose to believe that God is the one true God, the real one, in other words. Another way of putting it that occurred to me now, being, Would the real God please stand up? The God that stood up to the Dwarves being the Great Dwarf, but as my initial sentence says, we don't really know enough about the nature of their beliefs to say how the human Gods factor into their religion, or if they even do at all, besides the noted acknowledgment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
You repeat yourself all the time, and I understand. I merely, unlike you, keep the option open. Never pressing on it, never stating as fact, just a possibility. Dangerous for others - not for me.
I don't completely shut out the option, I just try to shuffle it into the backroom, outside of prying eyes. Spectators leave with different views, and talk about that which they spectated, distorting things. As a matter of fact, I noticed something interesting about the Seers that may have been distorted by spectators, including ourselves, but that's something to discuss in another topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
Which we know so little of.
Here's to hoping the Order of Whispers somehow managed to ascertain and archive it in the Durmand Priory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
Still, the likeliest thing we have on the connection between the Anvil and the Great Dwarf - and I believe you yourself once said on a different topic, which was also unconfirmed, to take it as confirmed because it was said in-game, even if it may be in fact wrong. Over on GWO I believe, on a matter with the Mists. Unless my memory serves me incorrectly - and the case was in the same circumstances.
Possible. However, my views, much like the Mists, are in a constant flux, tending towards creations that may not be amongst my initial intents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
Yes, you do.
And for once something we can agree on in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
Which means you place Dwayna, Dhuum, Abaddon's predecessor, and Melandru are first. Though I disagree - I'd add another generation for Kormir (and possible Grenth?), but this is off topic! Somewhat.
Not really, the question of who the Old Gods are reaches back into the origin of the Mists and the present day Tyria. Basically ranging over nearly everything in the lore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
I think he did get involved with the creation of the world - if he is indeed a first generation god like Melandru is, by Draxynnic's theory. If the "first" generation did contained Melandru, Dhuum, Dwayna, the Great Dwarf, Balthy's predecessor (if it wasn't Mr. Great Dwarf like I believe), Abaddon's predecessor, and Lyssa's predecessor, and if Melandru helped create the world, then I would say they all did. Melandru most likely working mainly on plantlife and the ground. Maybe Mr. Dwarf dealt with mountains and/or underground (caves).
*shrug* If any of us can pull up a source that states something in regards to the Great Dwarf creating the world, perhaps. Also, I thought the generational thing would go something like this:

Primordial Gods:
(The Mists)
The Great Dwarf

Somewhere-in-Between Gods:
Balthazar's parents
Dwayna
Melandru
Dhuum
Abaddon's predecessor
Lyssa

Primordial Tyrian Gods:
(The Mists)
Dwayna
Dhuum
Melandru
Balthazar
Abaddon
Lyssa
The Great Dwarf

Present Tyrian Gods:
(The Mists)
Dwayna
Grenth
Melandru
Balthazar
Kormir
Lyssa
The Great Dwarf

A note on the somewhere-in-between Gods and Goddesses, it simply means that we haven't a clue when they came into the picture, in regards to the ones we know the names of, and as to those we do not know the names of, we don't know what species, gender, if they have gender, how long they had existed, who their predecessor was if they had a predecessor, and just general information. I excluded "Lyssa's parents" because I found nothing to suggest the two being sisters in the traditional sense. Although admittedly I did not do very thorough digging into the matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes
Nothing to argue here - though I say the last option is most likely to me. I do feel that the Great Dwarf is no more, but once was one of the "old gods."
And my personal belief is that the Gods no longer are, in the usual sense of being. Rather, they have integrated into the Mists, to cease the bloodshed as others attempt to usurp their position and destroy the peace they have formed between themselves. Hence possibly the reason Kormir doesn't appear to intervene whatsoever in Elona when Palawa seizes control, or at all in the 250 year gap between the present and GW2. Which may be why the worship of the Great Dwarf has waned over the centuries, he got a headstart on his own personal "Exodus" prior to the human Gods.

Which I'm sure I indirectly suggested in my thread regarding the Mists, Gods, Magic, Bloodstones, etc.
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