Curse

Gmr Leon · Jul 28, 2009, 12:05 AM // 00:05

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Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

A) The Giganticus Lupicus are the creations of the Dragons. After they've completed their work they started to hibernate for an unknown period of time.

As you said yourself, the Movement of the World suggests that this would not be the case. Not only that, but usually the Ancient Dragons make their minions or creations out of the surrounding elements. This would suggest that their minions or creations don't actually have a skeletal structure at all. Thus, not leaving anything behind after death, and if anything was left, it would likely erode over the years and return to the earth, leaving no trace whatsoever. Hence the lack of hints to the existence of the Ancient Dragons prior to the Movement and Eye of the North.

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Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

B) The Giganticus Lupicus were the creations of previous gods/deities. The Dragons awoke and slew the true giants. After this they started hibernating again.

Or, they aren't creations at all. Just because there are tales of the Gods creating Tyria, does not mean they created everything, which is suggested all over the place. My own view on it is that the Gods are merely a sort of Universal Public Relations, that is to say, the Mists fashion or form into everything, and the Gods just kind of sort things out, and every so many years you get a staff change. This would seem to be suggested by the fact that they summoned the Forgotten to Tyria, and then, somehow, got around to creating it around them. That. Doesn't. Compute. At least, to me.

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Originally Posted by Draxynnic

The thought strikes me that if Malchor does have the ability to raise long-dead creatures, this might explain the undead draconic troops - they might not actually have been transformed by Malchor, but Malchor might be raising any Giganticus Lupus remains it finds within its territory - which the ignorant regard as 'draconic' partially because of the similarities between the GL and the ADs, and partially simply because they're under Malchor's control.

I'm still sticking with the idea that it just "corrupts" the form of those it twists into its will with its breath, making them appear draconic in nature. But not due to mere preferences and biases. It's true, we've seen skeletal undead in the game, there's nothing to deny that, but, let's be honest here.

We've never been to Orr. How do we know Giganticus Lupicus are there? They've only been in three areas with high human populations (either in past or present). Ascalon, Kourna, and the Desolation. In no other area populated by humans are they found.
We don't know whether they're aquatic, amphibious, or just terrestrial creatures. Who's to say they would work out on land?
We've also never seen a full body. Reanimating a body usually requires..All of the parts together..I can't think of any exceptions to the rule where we can tell with certainty that they're missing a certain appendage.

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Originally Posted by Draxynnic

A possible reason for this behaviour is simply nostalgia - Malchor is repopulating its territory with creatures it remembers from before its hibernation. (Never mind tyhat they're technically dead. No one said that the ADs, collectively or as individuals, all have to be sane - and this goes especially for Malchor if it did go into hibernation a living dragon and woke up as a skeleton due to the Cataclysm.)

The issue here is we haven't any evidence supporting long term memory in any of the Ancient Dragons. Everything they do seems based on instinct, from what little information we have.

Also, before it's mentioned, I know the first post I responded to was an older one, I just felt like going after two of the earlier Giganticus Lupicus comments that are influencing the current discussion.

As to the Corsair, they don't need to be dead, do they need to be dead, yada vlada discussion. The Movement suggests that just Malchor's breath is enough to twist and bend them to its will while alive. Much like Primordus's breath twists the earth into its minions.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 28, 2009, 01:01 AM // 01:01

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Originally Posted by Free Runner

Erm..

I never said the Corsairs near Orr were killed. They were the ones who were directly twisted by its breath. I was talking about those who are attacked and sunk by the Black Ships of the Undead Dragon and are then brought back up (which i very much doubt would survive unless the Undead actually capture them before they sink their ships, something which seems rather pointless since its just going to be brought back up anyway...)

The wording threw me off. As the use of the dashes (-) in grammar usually is interchange able with parentheses or commas, which usually means a separate thought and since there was only one dash I thought it was an entirely different thought and I ended up reading it more like "those who are killed and then brought back up into its service through the dragon's breath" (basically, everything after the dash related to itself describing those who are killed and how they are put into its service).

No comment on Leon's comments as I mostly agree with what he says. And those I question is merely due to the lack of info which he himself admits.

Gmr Leon · Jul 28, 2009, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Also, my general outlook on the borders of Malchor's controlled area (green), Elona (gold), and as I've continually pointed out, nothing suggests the desert dragon, or Grothmar, if they are one in the same, has minions. Thus, simply a blue dot to represent the desert dragon/maybe Grothmar.

Zshomp.

As I was doing this though, it came to my attention that, if you were Palawa Joko, and you enjoy the irony of using your enemy's descendants in your army, wouldn't the ultimate irony lie in seizing the Temple of Ascension and the Throne of Pellentia as the capital of your new kingdom/empire? Personally, I think so, considering it was built by Turai Ossa, and since he failed to complete it, it would just be adding insult to injury to rebuild it to Joko's liking, or even simply to finish it and reside it.

So, really, Palawa might actually be on the front lines, depending on just how far Malchor's forces go.

Edit: Post-Note: Yes, I do realize that Malchor's territory is a bit further eastward here than it was in my last little outlook of the dragon's territory. My habits may be, by the very nature of the term habit, be consistent, but my thoughts are in a constant state of fluctuation.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 28, 2009, 02:04 AM // 02:04

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I've continually pointed out, nothing suggests the desert dragon, or Grothmar, if they are one in the same, has minions.

But if he doesn't, then not only would that make him even more unique as an Ancient Dragon (only one not to have minions aside from possibly the Deep Sea Dragon) but one must ask: Why is it hard to get to Elona through the Crystal Desert and why is it such a feat for the Order of Whispers to do so if the Desert Dragon, if Grothmar, doesn't have minions?

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

As I was doing this though, it came to my attention that, if you were Palawa Joko, and you enjoy the irony of using your enemy's descendants in your army, wouldn't the ultimate irony lie in seizing the Temple of Ascension and the Throne of Pellentia as the capital of your new kingdom/empire? Personally, I think so, considering it was built by Turai Ossa, and since he failed to complete it, it would just be adding insult to injury to rebuild it to Joko's liking, or even simply to finish it and reside it.

So, really, Palawa might actually be on the front lines, depending on just how far Malchor's forces go.

I can see his desire to do such. And may be his intention upon heading to the Crystal Desert (along with expanding his empire). However, I question him being so far away from the rest of Elona and still keeping such a strong grasp on it.

But then again, like in his fight against Turai, he was "in" the fight, but just in the back of the army. So it is possible that Joko resides in a rebuilt/finished Temple of Ascension and commands his army from there instead of from his Bone Palace.

Didn't the Movement of the World say he built a new palace in the greener areas of the Crystal Desert? If the river went to the Temple, it's possible. Or maybe it meant the Scar (and thus, Margonite ship-buildings).

Gmr Leon · Jul 28, 2009, 02:17 AM // 02:17

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

But if he doesn't, then not only would that make him even more unique as an Ancient Dragon (only one not to have minions aside from possibly the Deep Sea Dragon) but one must ask: Why is it hard to get to Elona through the Crystal Desert and why is it such a feat for the Order of Whispers to do so if the Desert Dragon, if Grothmar, doesn't have minions?

Grothmar was noted as corrupting the life below it in Ascalon, while those same lifeforms not becoming its minions. That and its size are factors that make it unique enough to make it viable that it simply doesn't have minions. As to why they have so much trouble getting through the Crystal Desert..Well, as I said, it corrupted the life beneath it in Ascalon, and if it is the desert dragon, what's stopping it from corrupting lifeforms in the northern Crystal Desert and having the same effect as in Ascalon, making it more treacherous? Really, right from the start, Grothmar is the most unique of the dragons. Incredible size, not forming minions right off the bat, and flying away from where it awakens. Something is certainly up with it.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Didn't the Movement of the World say he built a new palace in the greener areas of the Crystal Desert? If the river went to the Temple, it's possible. Or maybe it meant the Scar (and thus, Margonite ship-buildings).

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Originally Posted by The Movement of the World

To ensure his dominance, Palawa dammed and diverted the river Elon, causing drought and famine amid the northern provinces of Elona and creating a green and growing area within the Crystal Desert. In this area, Palawa Joko established the seat of his new kingdom.

Pretty much. As to if it meant the Scar..Let's be honest with ourselves here, this is Joko we're talking about. He's gone to the trouble of hunting down Turai Ossa's descendants to forge his living army. I doubt he would be without the knowledge of the Temple of Ascension being one of Turai's greatest failures, and seizing that to add more salt to the wound. Establishing his seat in the Scar just seems a bit on the..Why? side of things to me. Aside from being further away from Malchor's possible territory..It wouldn't make much sense.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 28, 2009, 02:51 AM // 02:51

One must keep in mind that the Margonites also caused a little pain to him - through taking over portions of the Desolation while he was freeing himself. I'm sure he'd want to get some revenge on them as well (though not as much as on Turai). If Malchor's forces were took stretched into the Crystal Desert for Joko to go near the Temple long enough to expand it, then building it on Thirsty River/The Scar would make just as much sense.

We also must not forget the ruined towns of the Elonians in the Arid Sea's northwest corner. I am sure that the "Ancient Weapon" would have been just as much - if not bigger - of Turai's failure as it was his inability to control his people that caused said weapon's creation and usage.

So, looking at things, there are three plausible locations for Joko's "seat of his new kingdom." Though, to be honest, if I were Joko, I wouldn't make the Temple of Ascension my throne. I'd make it a monument to Turai's failure. I think that would be even more insulting - not only would Joko show that he is better than Turai to just simply finish the temple, but he would change it's purpose, and show that it's not even good enough for Joko to make his throne there.

draxynnic · Jul 28, 2009, 04:59 AM // 04:59

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I'm still sticking with the idea that it just "corrupts" the form of those it twists into its will with its breath, making them appear draconic in nature. But not due to mere preferences and biases. It's true, we've seen skeletal undead in the game, there's nothing to deny that, but, let's be honest here.

We've never been to Orr. How do we know Giganticus Lupicus are there? They've only been in three areas with high human populations (either in past or present). Ascalon, Kourna, and the Desolation. In no other area populated by humans are they found.
We don't know whether they're aquatic, amphibious, or just terrestrial creatures. Who's to say they would work out on land?
We've also never seen a full body. Reanimating a body usually requires..All of the parts together..I can't think of any exceptions to the rule where we can tell with certainty that they're missing a certain appendage.

The issue here is we haven't any evidence supporting long term memory in any of the Ancient Dragons. Everything they do seems based on instinct, from what little information we have.

To both of these: Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

As you say, we've never been to Orr. This means we don't know if there are GL there. It also means we don't know that they aren't. It's possible that Orr was in fact the center of knowledge about the GL because that's where all the best specimens have been found!

Also as you say: We don't have much information on the Ancient Dragons. They may be acting on instinct, but they might just be appearing to do so because we don't know otherwise, and short of a direct reference we'll probably never know if the Ancient Dragons do have a long-term memory - after all, most of the things they would remember from before they went into hibernation probably wouldn't be relevant in modern Tyria.

Grothmar's destination is an interesting question - the thought strikes me that it's not impossible that the risen Orr is desert as well (the Cataclysm followed by all those years underwater may well have taken their toll on the fertility of the land) so it might be that in the time of GW2, the terms "Orrian dragon" and "desert dragon" are synonymous. If this is the case, however, the most likely assumption is that Grothmar is either further south and is in (or beyond) Elona somewhere, or it took a left turn and is somewhere north of Elona.

Eliz Genevieve · Jul 28, 2009, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Instead of thinking where did Grothmar flew to, I'd rather think in to the why did Grothmar flew south, when he was unchallenged in the Charr Homelands.

Gmr Leon · Jul 28, 2009, 12:39 PM // 12:39

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

One must keep in mind that the Margonites also caused a little pain to him - through taking over portions of the Desolation while he was freeing himself. I'm sure he'd want to get some revenge on them as well (though not as much as on Turai). If Malchor's forces were took stretched into the Crystal Desert for Joko to go near the Temple long enough to expand it, then building it on Thirsty River/The Scar would make just as much sense.

Remember though, that while the distance appears close on the map, it's always going to be further away in terms of actual distance. As to Joko being concerned with the Margonites..Eh. I think that an Ossa was sitting on his throne was more of an insult than anything else. The way he handles the situation with the Margonites at the Great Margonite Temple seems to support this, as while most of his forces were otherwise occupied, he still didn't see that as being important enough to relegate a contingent to handling it. That's why he just used us instead. Really, it seemed more like he viewed it as cleaning the place up, and keeping the dirt from getting moved about the house (with the guards placed there).

He seemed far more concerned with the undead factions that are roaming free, as shown by the fact there's an entire quest chain dedicated to it, while there isn't another for dealing with the Margonites.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

We also must not forget the ruined towns of the Elonians in the Arid Sea's northwest corner. I am sure that the "Ancient Weapon" would have been just as much - if not bigger - of Turai's failure as it was his inability to control his people that caused said weapon's creation and usage.

The Ancient Weapon should not be considered valid anymore, I think. We know what its actual purpose was, and it was simply to knock down the Lonely Vigil.
We still can't say with certainty that the city there was Elonian. If it was Elonian, this means all the statues that appear similar to the Lonely Vigil were built by Elonians.
..And on that note, we've never seen any Elonian structure..Or any human structure built by the present kingdoms for that matter, built that large.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

So, looking at things, there are three plausible locations for Joko's "seat of his new kingdom." Though, to be honest, if I were Joko, I wouldn't make the Temple of Ascension my throne. I'd make it a monument to Turai's failure. I think that would be even more insulting - not only would Joko show that he is better than Turai to just simply finish the temple, but he would change it's purpose, and show that it's not even good enough for Joko to make his throne there.

I suppose. Still, neither of us are Joko, so who knows what he's thinking. All I do know, is that I think Joko's kingdom is one of the most powerful, and most secure. Although I'm still not sure if it should be classified as human, or undead. As I'd say there's probably an equal amount of undead and living..Making it the first kingdom since the Empire of the Dragon to contain other races, while not subjugating the other race to slavery. Well..He might use a few living ones as slaves..But I think it would make more sense to use undead..No worries about death from exhaustion or the like.

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Originally Posted by Draxynnic

To both of these: Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

While true, it remains that with no evidence whatsoever to support their presence there, we shouldn't assume anything. Just as we shouldn't assume that Palawa Joko has a court of undead women dancing in his new palace. If someone doesn't assert this sort of thing, and I'm sure you realize this, the Lore Forums simply become another form of fanfiction with no solid basis.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 28, 2009, 01:52 PM // 13:52

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Remember though, that while the distance appears close on the map, it's always going to be further away in terms of actual distance. As to Joko being concerned with the Margonites..Eh. I think that an Ossa was sitting on his throne was more of an insult than anything else. The way he handles the situation with the Margonites at the Great Margonite Temple seems to support this, as while most of his forces were otherwise occupied, he still didn't see that as being important enough to relegate a contingent to handling it. That's why he just used us instead. Really, it seemed more like he viewed it as cleaning the place up, and keeping the dirt from getting moved about the house (with the guards placed there).

He seemed far more concerned with the undead factions that are roaming free, as shown by the fact there's an entire quest chain dedicated to it, while there isn't another for dealing with the Margonites.

This is true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

The Ancient Weapon should not be considered valid anymore, I think. We know what its actual purpose was, and it was simply to knock down the Lonely Vigil.
We still can't say with certainty that the city there was Elonian. If it was Elonian, this means all the statues that appear similar to the Lonely Vigil were built by Elonians.
..And on that note, we've never seen any Elonian structure..Or any human structure built by the present kingdoms for that matter, built that large.

That was the game mechanical purpose. The lore behind it still is canon, which is said by Yannel Brunn.
and 3. Those structures are the same as seen in the Crystal Overlook and some of what is found in Ruins of Morah. Thus, Elonian. They are also similar to the sides of the "front" (from how we enter) of the Temple of Ascension if I recall correctly, and of the two structures to the south and southeast of the Temple (the later not proof, but suggestive).

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Originally Posted by mrLeon

I suppose. Still, neither of us are Joko, so who knows what he's thinking. All I do know, is that I think Joko's kingdom is one of the most powerful, and most secure. Although I'm still not sure if it should be classified as human, or undead. As I'd say there's probably an equal amount of undead and living..Making it the first kingdom since the Empire of the Dragon to contain other races, while not subjugating the other race to slavery. Well..He might use a few living ones as slaves..But I think it would make more sense to use undead..No worries about death from exhaustion or the like.

I can easily see Joko using centaurs and undead centaurs as "beasts of burden" (as he himself puts it).

draxynnic · Jul 29, 2009, 03:31 AM // 03:31

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Remember though, that while the distance appears close on the map, it's always going to be further away in terms of actual distance. As to Joko being concerned with the Margonites..Eh. I think that an Ossa was sitting on his throne was more of an insult than anything else. The way he handles the situation with the Margonites at the Great Margonite Temple seems to support this, as while most of his forces were otherwise occupied, he still didn't see that as being important enough to relegate a contingent to handling it. That's why he just used us instead. Really, it seemed more like he viewed it as cleaning the place up, and keeping the dirt from getting moved about the house (with the guards placed there).

He seemed far more concerned with the undead factions that are roaming free, as shown by the fact there's an entire quest chain dedicated to it, while there isn't another for dealing with the Margonites.

Possibly because the main storyline was about dealing with the Margonites.

I've generally thought that Palawa was basically providing the 'cannon fodder' in most of the fighting in the desert, making it possible for the heroes to succeed. For game purposes whatever armies he had gathered tended to always be somewhere other than where the players were, but where's the fun in crossing zones that have been pacified by an ally?

Now, dealing with the free undead was part of the war effort, but the main point to that seemed to be, basically, aggressive recruiting. While Palawa was probably looking towards his long-term conquests right from the beginning, part of that long-term planning would include a realisation that a victory for Abaddon was bad news for him.

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I suppose. Still, neither of us are Joko, so who knows what he's thinking. All I do know, is that I think Joko's kingdom is one of the most powerful, and most secure. Although I'm still not sure if it should be classified as human, or undead. As I'd say there's probably an equal amount of undead and living..Making it the first kingdom since the Empire of the Dragon to contain other races, while not subjugating the other race to slavery. Well..He might use a few living ones as slaves..But I think it would make more sense to use undead..No worries about death from exhaustion or the like.

I wonder if the living Elonians would agree with that assessment. Palawa does seem to be a more benign tyrant than many, but...

Quote:

While true, it remains that with no evidence whatsoever to support their presence there, we shouldn't assume anything. Just as we shouldn't assume that Palawa Joko has a court of undead women dancing in his new palace. If someone doesn't assert this sort of thing, and I'm sure you realize this, the Lore Forums simply become another form of fanfiction with no solid basis.

Which is why I put things in terms of 'maybe'. It's one possible scenario, but that doesn't mean it's certain truth - but neither is it an impossibility.