Curse

Eliz Genevieve · Jul 25, 2009, 09:38 PM // 21:38

So, I'll get straight to the point.

*Ancient Dragons lore related knowers hop in*

I was re-reading The Movement Of The World for the thousandth time, and something picked my curiosity.
No, no, this isn't a new topic, just a thing in which I made some speculation and would like you to comment it.

Regarding the Crystal Desert in GW2, we know that there will be a Desert Dragon (I'm not going to refer to it as 'Grothmar', since we have no confirmation that's him), as stated in the 'Order Of Whispers' section; and the 'Malchor'. It's stated *implied* in the last paragraph of the 'Orr' section that Malchor wages war against Palawa's undeads, so, I was wandering:

Which area does Malchor occupies in the Desert; which area does the Desert Dragon occupies, and how can Malchor wage war against Palawa if *speculation* his 'territorial zone' is only situated in Orr and not in the southeastern border that connects the Desert to the Desolation?

My guess is that Malchor controls the Orrian Peninsula all the way to the northern Elonian border; and that the Desert Dragon controls the lands North of the area controlled by Malchor. Thus the quotes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originally Posted by The Movement Of The World

(..) the dragon's undead army wages war even now along the northern Elonian border(..)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originally Posted by The Movement Of The World

(..) and even maintain a presene in Elona, although crossing the Crystal Desert due to Palawa's stranglehold over the southern reaches and the desert dragon's presence in the northern desert.

Although the last one implies that Palawa managed to build a stranglehold in Tyria, probably in the Arid Sea, but the first one states that Malchor wages war in the 'northern Elonian border' and not in the 'southern reaches' of the Crystal Desert. Meh.

arch psyker · Jul 25, 2009, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Orr is the area to the right of the Ring of Fire Islands. There is only sea north of this area.

Orr

The movement of the world states Palawa makes his kingdom in the Crystal Desert area which is on the northern border of the Desolation in Elona.

So there is another dragon that will show up north of the Crystal Desert ironically most likely near the area of the mission Dragon's Lair and the Tome of Primeval Kings. Could possible be a sleeping dragon or could be one that comes from the mists.

That is my estimate of where they will be.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 25, 2009, 11:52 PM // 23:52

For the last sentence, one could consider some if not all of the Crystal Desert (not including the Desolation which is a sub-region of the Crystal Desert) part of Elona. Much like Europe and Asia, Tyria and Elona has a sketchy boarder and can be considered names of two portions of one super-continent. Due to such, the "northern Elonian border" could cut in the middle of the Tyrian Crystal Desert by technical standing.

A map I just made to show my opinion on the spheres of influence in the Crystal Desert.

Green=Desert Dragon
Blue=Orrian Dragon
Red=Joko

Boarders are just rough estimations of what I picture the control being.

Eliz Genevieve · Jul 25, 2009, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by arch psyker

Orr is the area to the right of the Ring of Fire Islands. There is only sea north of this area.

Orr

The movement of the world states Palawa makes his kingdom in the Crystal Desert area which is on the northern border of the Desolation in Elona.

So there is another dragon that will show up north of the Crystal Desert ironically most likely near the area of the mission Dragon's Lair and the Tome of Primeval Kings. Could possible be a sleeping dragon or could be one that comes from the mists.

That is my estimate of where they will be.

The Desolation is part of the Crystal Desert.
My bet do the Desert Dragon is Grothmar, he flies south, over Ascalon.
The one that comes from the mists (?) huh? who does?

Anyways, I concur with your estimate of where they'll be.

arch psyker · Jul 26, 2009, 12:30 AM // 00:30

well the tomb of primeval kings used to be the entrance to HA. in which the mists would be there.

just implying that it could be something that could be a possibly. Grothmar does sound reasonable though.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 26, 2009, 01:59 AM // 01:59

All the Ancient Dragons are from Tyria and have been there since before the Giganticus Lupicus. Nothing supports them originating from the Mists or the Rift.

Roy_ · Jul 26, 2009, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

All the Ancient Dragons are from Tyria and have been there since before the Giganticus Lupicus. Nothing supports them originating from the Mists or the Rift.

I was under the belief that we had NO idea when the dragons originally came from, there is the theory that the Dragons wiped out Giganticus Lupicus, but we have no idea what really did it.

It is my belief, that the Dragons and Lupicus are the same species, although the only proof we have of that is This Image

Edit: Image changed to explain features

Konig Des Todes · Jul 26, 2009, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Their true origins are unknown, however, the only evidence of their existence is on Tyria and in the Movement of the World it is said they are older than the Giganticus Lupicus.

I also believe that the Ancient Dragons and the Giganticus Lupicus are the "same" - but I wouldn't say species. Same way that Dinosaurs are the "same" but are not of the same species. Also, that GL bone is hardly proof - that kind of skull is all over and is one of the three GL skulls found - one of the other two being a smaller version of said skull.

Roy_ · Jul 26, 2009, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Hm...need to reread MotW..., although with the bone reference I was thinking more of bone structure (and I realize there are many of them perhaps I shouldnt have used "I" but we =P)

Edit to stay on topic: I agree with Konig's map, although I think Joko's needs to be down a little farther...

arch psyker · Jul 26, 2009, 06:19 AM // 06:19

only reason I put Palawa where I did was due to his rivalry with Turai Ossa since this is where Elonians and Turai went for ascension. But Konig's map seems more likely.

Thalador Doomspeaker · Jul 26, 2009, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Konig's map seems the most precise map about the latter struggle between the Dragons and Joko. Although I don't understand something. If 'Malchor' is the Undead Dragon who has the power to create hordes undeads without the deterioration of the normal minions, why doesn't he use his necromantic powers to bend Palawa Joko to his will? I've read something about the undeads here, in the forum. If I'm correct then it was Konig's post (while he was Azazel The Assassin) and there was a theory, that the Undead Dragon was responsible for several necromantic events in Orr.

Perhaps I'm wrong with this, but I couldn't find that thread unfortunatley.

PS.: Somebody can tell me how to post pictures without using an image uploding site? Thanks. :S

Gmr Leon · Jul 26, 2009, 02:23 PM // 14:23

You can attach files via the button at the bottom. They have to be a certain size both imagewise and memorywise though. Also, about Malchor, we still don't even know if he or she was undead prior to the Cataclysm, or if it is due to the Cataclysm that it is now undead. I'll probably respond with a bit more later.

Mister_Smiley · Jul 26, 2009, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Malchor is probley the name of the undead dragon, but we don't really know. I don't think that the dragon that ends up in the desert is Grothmar, but we don't really know. Also the reason that the undead dragon dosn't bend Palawa Joko to his will is because joko will is to strong to be controled. But i won't go into Joko.

Also the map look right, mabey somewhat off with joko and the desert dragon. But i think that all the Lupicus and Dragon went to sleep at the same time and over time they just died, mabey because they where not powerfull enuff or what is unknown. But i do think that the Crystal Desert will have some key factor in GW2

Also the reason that they are fighting could be to see who is more powerfull of the undeads, the Dragon or the Joko

Thalador Doomspeaker · Jul 26, 2009, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

But i think that all the Lupicus and Dragon went to sleep at the same time and over time they just died, mabey because they where not powerfull enuff or what is unknown.

I don't think so:

Quote:

The cycle of their awakening reaches back to the time of the giganticus lupicus, and even further, back into prehistory.

It seems that the Ancient Dragons are older than the Giganticus Lupicus, thus there's 2 (I'm not sure if there's more) possible explanations:

A) The Giganticus Lupicus are the creations of the Dragons. After they've completed their work they started to hibernate for an unknown period of time.
Although I doubt this because of the following quotation from the Movement of the World:

Quote:

The only thing known about these monsters is that they have no pity, no curiosity—no concern at all for the other races of the world. Their only goal seems to be to dominate, to control, and to destroy.

B) The Giganticus Lupicus were the creations of previous gods/deities. The Dragons awoke and slew the true giants. After this they started hibernating again.

I would vote for B), my problem is that I'm only speculating (again) and I have no evidence to confirm it. But if it's true, then it would seem that they hibernate for thousands of years, awake, destroy everyone who would oppose their will, rule the world for unknown periods, then start hibernating again. But this time they have more plans for Tyria, I bet...

I'm sorry if these've been raised before.

Free Runner · Jul 26, 2009, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

If 'Malchor' is the Undead Dragon who has the power to create hordes undeads without the deterioration of the normal minions, why doesn't he use his necromantic powers to bend Palawa Joko to his will?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister_Smiley

Also the reason that the undead dragon dosn't bend Palawa Joko to his will is because joko will is to strong to be controled. But i won't go into Joko.

Joko wasnt actually created by the dragon as far as we know. The only forces the Undead Dragon "bends to its will" are those who are killed - and then brought back up into its service and those who are directly hit by its breath. The only things we know about the dragon is that it can twist beings into "draconian troops" and also raise and command undead. That doesnt mean it can command already existing undead such as Joko. It would no doubt have to twist him with its breath.

Also i doubt they (Jokos forces and the Undead Dragons forces) are fighting to see whos stronger. Joko no doubt spread his forces futher into the desert and came across the Undead Armarda, who apparantly attack anything that comes near them. And Joko, being stubborn probably decided to keep on fighting them - the dragon probably doesnt know or care who Joko is anyway.

Mister_Smiley · Jul 26, 2009, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Thalador Doomspeaker I think your reasoning behind "B" sounds a lot better, it makes a lot more sense, because if the Giganticus Lupicus where created by the dragons, they would just remake them again to do there work.

Free Runner your ideas on Joko sound good, but here is another theory, is it possible that Joko used Staff of the Mists to become what he is now. Also ya since the dragons dosn't care about anything, they would attack them, so your probley right there.

Evasion Twenty · Jul 26, 2009, 07:13 PM // 19:13

I cant understand what the bone sample is. It looks like a hip to me, am I right?

And it does make sense for Joko to reside in Turai's territory as he was Turai's enemy, he can now stomp around and say "I win! I win!"

Eliz Genevieve · Jul 26, 2009, 07:16 PM // 19:16

what's the deal with your thoughts about the GL/dragon relationship?
Nothing in tMotW states that there was a connection there. They only say the Dragons are older than the GL, nothing that would imply that imo.

Regarding the topic, I agree with Free Runner, on the first paragraph at least.

EDIT: @Evasion Twenty
bone sample?
btw, in Joko's 'crusade' to catch every Ossa, he may have went to the Crystal Desert itself, persuing the Elonians that followed Turai in order to get ascended. Thus the reason to way he's there.

Evasion Twenty · Jul 26, 2009, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eliz Genevieve

what's the deal with your thoughts about the GL/dragon relationship?
Nothing in tMotW states that there was a connection there. They only say the Dragons are older than the GL, nothing that would imply that imo.

Regarding the topic, I agree with Free Runner, on the first paragraph at least.

EDIT: @Evasion Twenty
bone sample?
btw, in Joko's 'crusade' to catch every Ossa, he may have went to the Crystal Desert itself, persuing the Elonians that followed Turai in order to get ascended. Thus the reason to way he's there.

The bone sample that Roy frogger posted in the link. It involves giant bones that are in the middle of a corrupted stream in the Searing portion of Ascalon.

Was the last tid-bit directed at me?

Eliz Genevieve · Jul 26, 2009, 08:21 PM // 20:21

the bone sample is one of the Giganticus Lupicus remnants, fossils, whatevers.

Nop, the last tid-bit wasn't directed to you, sorry for the confusion, just something that came up :P