Curse

KalleDamos · Jul 23, 2007, 04:56 AM // 04:56

Man, everyone seems to like the mursaat..but without the spectrail agony, they would be pathetic and easily crushed by just about any other army. Take away the Monster Skills and make it even playing feild, hen who would win?

eightyfour-onesevenfive · Jul 23, 2007, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Remember, at the end of Iron Mines? You watch the Mursaat eles just rip through the stone summit? Yeah....I just have memories of them gliding over the group of summit that just spanked by Spectral + lightning spike.
GG

Mursaat FTW.

Oh yes, I remember that mission

Especially I remember how I did the bonus there with a complete team of uninfused henchmen, without a single death. Spectral agony really isn't that scary. Some half-decent monking can hold up with that.

I also remember the mursaat being bombed to smithereens by the Dwarven catapult ice ships. And that's the Mursaat's main flaw: They die way too easily.

In the end I think the Undead would prevail. They come in very large numbers and now with Joko they have a leader again. They also have quite a few units with decent skillbars, especially now with the Awakened. Minion Masters (from Prophecies), Bonder Monks, Resurrects, Interrupts... it's all there.

Turbobusa · Jul 23, 2007, 08:48 AM // 08:48

and Edenial...
yeah the undead army is very strong
As for spectral agony, any army with monks carrying spirit bond would defeat them.

Grand Theft Ecto · Jul 23, 2007, 09:25 AM // 09:25

Mallyx & Lords of Anguish & Army (which is basically the entire DoA) > All :-)

Sophitia Leafblade · Jul 23, 2007, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by eightyfour-onesevenfive

Especially I remember how I did the bonus there with a complete team of uninfused henchmen, without a single death. Spectral agony really isn't that scary. Some half-decent monking can hold up with that.

so -30 degen + 100 direct damage per second, and -80% speed, attack speed, and skill useage isnt scary? There are only 3 Mursaat in the bonus groups there if you rush in 1st and get them to target you while ur infused then the henchies wont have a problem, let them go in 1st and ull see the real power of the Mursaat

Note Heros are Autoinfused, as are henchies from Thunderhead Keep onwards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KalleDamos

Man, everyone seems to like the mursaat..but without the spectrail agony, they would be pathetic and easily crushed by just about any other army. Take away the Monster Skills and make it even playing feild, hen who would win?

Hmm sounds like u dont love the Mursaat

Removing Monster skills also removes the torment creatures ability to spawn more significantly weakening them, it also makes Margonites heal less, the demons lose there best abilitys like fingers of Chaos, Juggernaughts, Abaddon, Base defenders. and Turtles then have no attack. Giants no longer knockdown, Grasping Ghouls, Shiro, Varesh, Juukundu, etc. lose all there attack abilitys, Kournans lose their Siege ability, Cosairs lose there slow downs..... the list goes on.

Milan-V · Jul 23, 2007, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Titans would easely beat the %@#$ out of all the army's. I mean, once you start killing, the just multiply in just as strong monsters. And do you guys remember the titan-imps, they were a complete horror.
This doesn't even inconclude their ability to "summon"(?) a searing.

KalleDamos · Jul 23, 2007, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Alright, I admit, I do not like the fact that every thinks just because of one skill(that can be countered with infusion and decent monking) the Mursaat would win hands down. But you have to admit that without it they are rather helpless. And I did the math(well guildwiki did the math, I'm just quoting) but you only have -30 health degen and 100 points of dmg per second with 0 pieces of infused armor. A full set of infused armor reduces the degen to about -3 per second and the direct damage to 9 per second. And really who faces the mursaat without infusions(exlcuding those who have no idea what they are doing).

Also I would like to now clarify. I forgot about Joko for a moment, but now that I was reminded I would like to include all the undead into one catagory, that means basically mixing the undead armys of Joko(minus the wurms cause they aren't undead) and the undead orrian army into one huge Night of the Living dead that would make George Romero proud.

Snow Bunny · Jul 23, 2007, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

Game play wise, Mursaat > all. Spectral Agony is like one of the most broken abilities. The monk mursaat boss could probably solo Mallyx

lmao. Oh man, do I remember him. Willa the Unpleasant. Yeah...Willa could solo Mallyx with ease. I only killed it by dazing it, and Mallyx can't daze, gg.

Willa the Unpleasant > Anything.

Pwny Ride · Jul 24, 2007, 10:50 AM // 10:50

If say, Titans where an option as a force on their own, they would hands down win. They are still considered the most difficult of enemies to kill, and the fact that whenever a titan is killed it divides. Power in numbers. Titans have both.

eightyfour-onesevenfive · Jul 24, 2007, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

so -30 degen + 100 direct damage per second, and -80% speed, attack speed, and skill useage isnt scary?

No, it isn't. Degen caps at -10, that is 20 damage per second. Protective Spirit prevents about half of the direct damage. Even Alesia can handle a total of ~70 damage per second (only if Lina is quick enough with the prot and only if she isn't the target herself, I give you that).

I do not say that Spectral Agony is not powerful. It is a strong weapon, no doubt about it. In a 1 on 1, any mursaat would for sure defeat most other creatures the game has to offer (anything really apart from special units like Vengeful Aatxes, Horde of Nightmare or Rotscale and the like). But this is not a fair 1 on 1 we're talking about.

Quote:

There are only 3 Mursaat in the bonus groups there

There are not many places where Mursaat come in groups of more than three. Apart from the beginning of Ring of Fire Mission and the end of Ice Caves of Sorrow mission, the only place that I can think of from the top of my head is the Ice Floe explorable. Thus, Mursaat will in most cases be badly outnumbered by groups from other factions. I'd wager that one Mursaat would have to kill four or five undead, to make up for the difference. Even more because, as mentioned previously, undead can both summon minions and resurrect.

Given that this whole discussion is based on the assumption of an even playing field (levelwise), the question comes down to: "Does Spectral Agony alone compensate for the by far inferiour numbers of the Mursaat?"

I'd answer that with "No". But really, your guess is as good as mine.

Sophitia Leafblade · Jul 24, 2007, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by eightyfour-onesevenfive

No, it isn't. Degen caps at -10, that is 20 damage per second. Protective Spirit prevents about half of the direct damage. Even Alesia can handle a total of ~70 damage per second (only if Lina is quick enough with the prot and only if she isn't the target herself, I give you that).

You clearly never tried THK in the days before Henchies were infused, Even with Mhenlo and Lina desperatly casting Reversal and Protective spirit, the Mursaat destroyed the Henchies and then partyless they destroyed you. Spectual agony tore through henchies like the cookie monster opening a Pack of Maryland choc chip.

Sure other races can res but whats the big issue with res, DP, meaning they just die again but faster

A Leprechaun · Jul 24, 2007, 04:20 PM // 16:20

My bets on the titans. If it were not for you they would have destroyed the whole of Tyria (that was their purpose.) But then again, the mursaat are pretty tough. What about a scarab army? They have a queen ^^. Also to consider, another searing could wipe out a heck of a lot of stuff and the dwarf seige weapons could do some damage.

So, yeah my moneys on titans.

~A Leprechaun~

Rainman · Jul 24, 2007, 06:22 PM // 18:22

you forgot 1 army, the wurms >

Ahellio Nanje · Jul 24, 2007, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Ya good point leprechaun the scarabs could totally do some damage. Especially if they were all grouped up with traps like they are with kephet AND jade scarabs (now with feast of corruption in hardmode) dug in the ground around the trappers, and a bunch of monk scarabs with same abilities as kephet. That would be one hell of a devestating army.

Also, what about the djinn. Ya I know they dont really have a leader but imagine hundreds of djinn organized under somethings leadership, just imagine the destructive capabilities of that army. Remember you usually only fight djinn 3 at a time

blue.rellik · Jul 25, 2007, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by eightyfour-onesevenfive

No, it isn't. Degen caps at -10, that is 20 damage per second. Protective Spirit prevents about half of the direct damage. Even Alesia can handle a total of ~70 damage per second (only if Lina is quick enough with the prot and only if she isn't the target herself, I give you that).

I do not say that Spectral Agony is not powerful. It is a strong weapon, no doubt about it. In a 1 on 1, any mursaat would for sure defeat most other creatures the game has to offer (anything really apart from special units like Vengeful Aatxes, Horde of Nightmare or Rotscale and the like). But this is not a fair 1 on 1 we're talking about.

I don't know what you were playing but when I took on some Mursaat without infusion I was owned faster than frenzy+heal sigging a Aatxe. It sounds like that on paper but most of the time, spectral agony will kill you (It's not like Alesia or Lina can ward off two or more people with it)

Quote:

Given that this whole discussion is based on the assumption of an even playing field (levelwise), the question comes down to: "Does Spectral Agony alone compensate for the by far inferiour numbers of the Mursaat?"

I'd answer that with "No". But really, your guess is as good as mine.

The Jades inflict spectral agony on each hit. Essientially once a unit has been hit with it (especially a monster mob without a guaranteed monk with him) then they're dead. A jade armour just needs to hit two units to kill them in a few seconds, that means they can EASILY make up for having far less units.

Honestly there's a reason why the titans 'killed' the mursaat off-panel because they would never be able to do it on screen.

eightyfour-onesevenfive · Jul 26, 2007, 08:52 AM // 08:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

The Jades inflict spectral agony on each hit.

That is incorrect. Maybe it used to be like that, but nowadays Spectral Agony has a recharge delay of 15 seconds and Jade Armors and Jade Bows don't use it at all.

blue.rellik · Jul 26, 2007, 10:22 AM // 10:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by eightyfour-onesevenfive

That is incorrect. Maybe it used to be like that, but nowadays Spectral Agony has a recharge delay of 15 seconds and Jade Armors and Jade Bows don't use it at all.

AFYI, I can say honestly that it has happened. I engaged the 3 jade at the beginning of the RoF mission (without a Mursaat anywhere near aggro) and was hit with SA with each hit

Look on the talk page for Spectral Agony on wiki (near the bottom, I don't know how to link to certain parts on a page). I'm not the only person saying it

Sophitia Leafblade · Jul 26, 2007, 11:06 AM // 11:06

I have seen spectual agony been Cast by Jades, but from reading the page its very possible Anet changed this secretly in an update over the times. So nice find there

eightyfour-onesevenfive · Jul 26, 2007, 11:23 AM // 11:23

I stand corrected. /bowhead

Well, this changes just about everything. It's quite a big difference whether a couple of fragile casters use a skill every 15 seconds, (no matter how devestating that skill is, they would eventually succumb to superior numbers), or if it is applied with each hit of the physical units, too.

ivan.alicard · Jul 29, 2007, 10:25 AM // 10:25

you guys left out the most destructive army! the 55 monk bots at granite and hotspring! they have made that 2 place their outpost and is raising money to take over >.<