Curse

Thalador Doomspeaker · Aug 05, 2009, 06:58 PM // 18:58

I've found the Asuran structures built in CTC after 2 years!

After this "great revelation" I went to Rata Sum and took a look on the Asura structures there. I still don't know how to post small pictures within my post without atteching them or uploading them to an image uploading site, so I'll be posting twice, thus all of my pictures I want to show you can be seen.

gw041=CTC Asura tower - gw045=Rata Sum Asura tower
gw042=CTC Asura structure - gw043=Rata Sum Asura structure
gw047=Asuran architecture

The main point comes in my second post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonii

It's possible (as all theories are in video game lore) that the ruins on the Tarnished Coast were built by Orrians, but it seems very highly unlikely.

I said it before that I was only theorizing how to relate the three candidates Linsey suggested to our mysterious pyramids. And I doubt it too.
Thanks for the Manuscripts. I've totally forgotten it, so I'll look into it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

those three are the least likely, two of which impossible, possibilities in which we have a lack of definite structures

It seems you hate the Mursaat and the Seers. What makes you think it is impossible that the structures belonged to them? And there could be more ancient and forgotten civilizations who might have built them, but I don't think it was a lost krewe of Asura. And what makes me think that? You'll see it in my next post.

My votes:
Mursaat: 30%
Seers: 40%
Unknown civilization: 30%

Thalador Doomspeaker · Aug 05, 2009, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Here comes the main point. There was a discussion on the bird motives found on the pyramids' newel. I have found the larger versions on Eye of the North. It might have been implied already, so sorry if I raise it again.

gw038 and 039=Eye of the North motives - gw046=Rata Sum motive

And here's my theory/speculation, but at least I have some kind of evidence this time.

The builders of the pyramids and the Eye of the North are the same. It's clear that the we can find the pyramid structures in the Tarnished Coast and in the CTC. So this civilization might have stretched through hundreds of kilometers in Tyria, or they were subterranean in some form.
CTC is not far from the Eye. My another theory is, that Eye would've been their greatest monument and project, but for some unknown reasons - in my theory it's the cause of their extinction or disappearance - they left it before it was finished (missing top). Although I can confute my previous statement if the top was broken down by some unknown force.

Secondly, why I don't think it was the Asura, is because of the bird motives. The Asura hate the open skies, so why would they carve such motives if they depict one of the symbols(?) of sky.

The motives can prove a lot, and the little differences between the Eye one and pyramid one is the importance of the structure.
Pyramid 'bird'->used for simple structures
Eye 'bird'->their greatest project/monument

My theory about the size of their empire(?), because of the missing structures in Kryta and the Shiverpeaks has brought me to two points:
1.) Stretching throughout half of Tyria: their extinction/disappearance was caused by an unknown force, which erased almost all of their architecture in Kryta and the Shiverpeaks.

2.) Subterranean: after writing this Konig's suggestion came to my mind. This race/civilization could've been the first evolution of the Asura. (I mean the very first which lived on open terrains and liked being there.) They had some kind of travel network (the 'ancient' of the Asura Gate) so they could easily get to their city in CTC, and to the Eye from there. After they were nearly destroyed/killed they returned to their underground home, and evolved in to the Asura we see today.

Although I doubt the second point, because the Asura in present time would know that it belonged to their ancestors, or at least comment on it.

I hope I was clear, and didn't make to much lore and/or grammar errors.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 05, 2009, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

It seems you hate the Mursaat and the Seers. What makes you think it is impossible that the structures belonged to them? And there could be more ancient and forgotten civilizations who might have built them, but I don't think it was a lost krewe of Asura. And what makes me think that? You'll see it in my next post.

I don't hate them, I hate that everyone links anything mysterious to them - more of the Mursaat than anything. Though for most people, this was started by Quintus Antonius on GWO, it seems to be a trend for some reason.

Nothing really suggests the Mursaat having ever resided in the Tarnished Coast, all thoughts and "possible hints" to it, have been disproven again, and again; in fact, more disproves Mursaat ever residing in the Tarnished Coast than supports, though the disproving isn't definite. There's even less to hint that the Seers were ever there as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

The builders of the pyramids and the Eye of the North are the same. It's clear that the we can find the pyramid structures in the Tarnished Coast and in the CTC. So this civilization might have stretched through hundreds of kilometers in Tyria, or they were subterranean in some form.

This is possible, though not sure on the Eye of the North part, this theory is closely similar to my own theory on dungeon structures. Though I take it from a reverse view - ending with the Tarnished Coast ruins.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

CTC is not far from the Eye.

Actually, it is very far. Far Shiverpeaks to Northern Shiverpeaks. And who knows how deep underground. Though, true, less distance between those two than Rata Sum and the CTC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Secondly, why I don't think it was the Asura, is because of the bird motives. The Asura hate the open skies, so why would they carve such motives if they depict one of the symbols(?) of sky.

This point was brought up before, but in the ruins, the bird doesn't exist. And we are told that the CTC are Asuran. Hence the utter confusion (again! These things are just, bleh!).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

The motives can prove a lot, and the little differences between the Eye one and pyramid one is the importance of the structure.
Pyramid 'bird'->used for simple structures
Eye 'bird'->their greatest project/monument

Those two are vastly different, in my opinion, and only similar in how they protrude from the structure. If you look at the detail, you can see the Eye's birds seem more flat than the smaller ones, and the birds themselves, would be like comparing falcons to pigeons. No, I don't mean those are the birds used, but that the difference in the head design is that different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

My theory about the size of their empire(?), because of the missing structures in Kryta and the Shiverpeaks has brought me to two points:
1.) Stretching throughout half of Tyria: their extinction/disappearance was caused by an unknown force, which erased almost all of their architecture in Kryta and the Shiverpeaks.

I think you mean Ascalon, we see those ruin structures in Vloxen Excavations, Bloodstone Caves, Heart of the Shiverpeaks, the introduction dungeon, and Slavers'. I've looked, there might be some in Catacombs of Kathandrax, have yet to check there. Same with Arachni's Haunt.

And if my theory is correct, the amount of influence, in the least, is much much bigger than you'd think. And I mean much bigger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

2.) Subterranean: after writing this Konig's suggestion came to my mind. This race/civilization could've been the first evolution of the Asura. (I mean the very first which lived on open terrains and liked being there.) They had some kind of travel network (the 'ancient' of the Asura Gate) so they could easily get to their city in CTC, and to the Eye from there. After they were nearly destroyed/killed they returned to their underground home, and evolved in to the Asura we see today.

One would assume we'd see the remains of those gates, though, in the ruins and the Eye. Biggest flaw in this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Although I doubt the second point, because the Asura in present time would know that it belonged to their ancestors, or at least comment on it.

I hope I was clear, and didn't make to much lore and/or grammar errors.

Very clear, and you are getting closer and closer to my own theory on the dungeon structures, though you are just sticking to the above ground ones and the CTC.

Eliz Genevieve · Aug 05, 2009, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

The Asuran modification can be seen on one my attached picture.

That's not the only Asuran modification. You can see all the modifications by making an 'expedition' into the GWEN Dungeons, and there you can see the murals , and the spiral-like patterns, but no stairs. As stated in the Manuscrpits *I've already posted the quote in this thread somewhere, go find it* the pyramids are Asuran. The Geomystic Generators. The Kilns. The Foundry. Every of that piece of architecture is based in the old ruins.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

After all it can be Mursaat, so my first theories were not incorrect.

By that, you're quite implying that they are Mursaat. As Konig sayd, Linsey could just be throwing random races into the air, but I kind of doubt it. Mursaat, Orr, Seers, aren't they all unknown .. uhm, 'guys'? She could've just thrown that for confusion, or hinting something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Now, it is clear that the buildings were not built by a "large krewe of Asura" (^^) because this civilization was there before them.

Krewe, hehe :b

Resuming, that doesn't add much to the discussion, just re-saying old stuff.

Gmr Leon · Aug 06, 2009, 01:01 AM // 01:01

I'm getting the feeling that either way you two come upon your ideas, it's going to be related to an unknown civilization that somehow managed to expand across all of the Tyrian continent, be it above ground or below ground, and that, somehow, they were far more advanced than any civilization we've encountered, (they'd have to be at least moderately so for it extend to the corners of the Tyrian continent and maintain itself long enough to build the ruins we encounter) and even after that, be far older than any human records, (not hard at all) but, not only that, elude any records with any of the oldest races either native to Tyria, or brought to Tyria long before humanity, i.e. Forgotten. Given, the Charr have a fairly decent excuse, in that they don’t exactly record history in books or anything of that sort, as far as we know, and, if anything, they’re more likely to pass on records orally.

And, even if you don't want to decide it was an unknown civilization, you're bound to pin it to the likeliest candidate based on what it should be based on, supporting evidence, or, merely based on faulty speculation based in lack of information or obscure information.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 06, 2009, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I'm getting the feeling that either way you two come upon your ideas, it's going to be related to an unknown civilization that somehow managed to expand across all of the Tyrian continent, be it above ground or below ground, and that, somehow, they were far more advanced than any civilization we've encountered, (they'd have to be at least moderately so for it extend to the corners of the Tyrian continent and maintain itself long enough to build the ruins we encounter) and even after that, be far older than any human records, (not hard at all) but, not only that, elude any records with any of the oldest races either native to Tyria, or brought to Tyria long before humanity, i.e. Forgotten. Given, the Charr have a fairly decent excuse, in that they don’t exactly record history in books or anything of that sort, as far as we know, and, if anything, they’re more likely to pass on records orally.

And, even if you don't want to decide it was an unknown civilization, you're bound to pin it to the likeliest candidate based on what it should be based on, supporting evidence, or, merely based on faulty speculation based in lack of information or obscure information.

Unfortunately, more or less, though I am unsure if it wasn't an inhuman race, or if it was just a single race. Just, at the least, very good diggers with basic design ideas (except for one area which really intrigues the change!).

I'm far from a good point of view to really talk about my view still. It's just.... either without an answer, or very hard to find the answer.

There is at least a few things which I can easily say: the structures span from the Tarnished Coast, to the Southern Shiverpeaks, to the Far Shiverpeaks, and then to north of Kryta - that is what I know their control expanded, if it was one race. I have also found their original location, am highly sure they are Hominids, and have support for them following the five gods (nothing thus to support them following Abaddon as well, and the worship is after Grenth, as he's included).

There are also three locations which support above ground structures as well. The ruins in the Tarnished Coast being one. Of those I know of, there is only one race I think of giving credit to (which even you have given credit to that race), but that is just a guess.

Edit: I should mention, I believe the race - if it is just one - which we are looking at shows traits of Alexander the Great, minus the military aspect. That is, the further they expanded, the more of others' cultures they combined into their own. It could be that the race were humans, and they have now just become merged with other cultures that even they don't know their heritage. Of course, speculation, but a possibility I wanted to bring up.

I should finish that research, because now, we're going off-topic.

draxynnic · Aug 06, 2009, 05:20 AM // 05:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

A civilization is defined in reality by having most, if not all, of a list of things:

A writing system
Structures (towns, cities)
Social classes (slaves and non-slaves would suffice)
Leadership
Tools and specialized skills (usually meaning different people having different jobs, like some being farmers, others being blacksmiths, etc. - which also allows the use of less-essential jobs such as scholars)
A shared religious belief

Of what we know (key word: we don't know everything on the Krait yet), they are semi-sentient at least, they could have social classes (assuming the Hylek are indeed slaves), they have no known leadership or tools, they do have specialized skills (different professions), and no known religious belief.

Therefore, not a civilization.

Of course, that just says we don't know if they have the trappings of a civilisation.

Although I will pick on a couple of things - the Krait do have bosses, and it's probably a reasonable guess that the bosses may have leadership roles. Tools may not be necessary if they can just use magic instead... or if there are Krait forms with inbuilt tools. And, frankly, I'd probably say the last point should be more like "A shared belief system" or even "A shared system of values".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

1.) Stretching throughout half of Tyria: their extinction/disappearance was caused by an unknown force, which erased almost all of their architecture in Kryta and the Shiverpeaks.

Well, one other mystery that can possibly be thrown into the Precursor question is the towers at and around Beetletun. Might be worth investigating them for similarities.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 06, 2009, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Of course, that just says we don't know if they have the trappings of a civilisation.

Although I will pick on a couple of things - the Krait do have bosses, and it's probably a reasonable guess that the bosses may have leadership roles. Tools may not be necessary if they can just use magic instead... or if there are Krait forms with inbuilt tools. And, frankly, I'd probably say the last point should be more like "A shared belief system" or even "A shared system of values".

For the points, in wording, I took that straight from a work on civilization - supposedly the most up to date and well rounded book on civilizations in the world. But that's up to debate. As for the "don't know if they have the trappings of a civilization" - that was my main point in that, we cannot say they are, but we also cannot say they technically aren't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Well, one other mystery that can possibly be thrown into the Precursor question is the towers at and around Beetletun. Might be worth investigating them for similarities.

Don't recall towers around there. Will need to investigate indeed, or see screen shots.

Thalador Doomspeaker · Aug 06, 2009, 10:14 AM // 10:14

I'm starting to agree with you, Konig, but we shouldn't go further into it, until we get some new informations about this. As you've already stated we're going off-topic while raising the same questions and theories all the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eliz Genevieve

That's not the only Asuran modification. You can see all the modifications by making an 'expedition' into the GWEN Dungeons, and there you can see the murals , and the spiral-like patterns, but no stairs. As stated in the Manuscrpits *I've already posted the quote in this thread somewhere, go find it* the pyramids are Asuran. The Geomystic Generators. The Kilns. The Foundry. Every of that piece of architecture is based in the old ruins.

I'm sorry, but you are completely wrong. Again, I have to quote from Linsey's user talk:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linsey Murdock

The architecture of the Tarnished Coast is a combination of preexisting architecture with Asuran modifications. Who that preexisting architecture belonged to? We don't yet know. It could have been Orrian, the Seers or even the Mursaat. That is yet to be discovered, but one thing is for sure, there was once a civilization situated in the Tarnished Coast before the Asura arrived there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eliz Genevieve

By that, you're quite implying that they are Mursaat. As Konig sayd, Linsey could just be throwing random races into the air, but I kind of doubt it. Mursaat, Orr, Seers, aren't they all unknown .. uhm, 'guys'? She could've just thrown that for confusion, or hinting something.

Not a surprise. ^^
And as I've stated it before: I was theorizing how could the three races - Linsey said - be involved with the architecture found in the Tarnished Coast.
I was not suggesting, although I still consider the Mursaat and Seer as possible candidates from my point of view.

One thing is sure: it wasn't the Krait.

Eliz Genevieve · Aug 06, 2009, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Uhm, nothing that you quote implies that I'm wrong.

I'll quote the Manuscripts, since you're too lazy to look deep into the thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originally posted by The Eye Of The North Manuscripts

In addition to pyramids, and great gates, the Asura erected geomystic generators to focus the magical energies brimming in the Tarnished Coast to further aid in their research. They also built large forges and kilns to produce prototypes and finished magical devices."

What Linsey says, doesn't disregards what I said by Pyramids being Asuran. It does the opposite, it only strengthens it:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Linsey Murdock

The architecture of the Tarnished Coast is a combination of preexisting architecture with Asuran modifications.

Asuran Modifications.

Whilst the quote you got doesn't cancel out my , uhm, 'theory' that the pyramids are indeed Asuran, the ruins that the quest 'O Brave New World' takes us to, destroys it. Because there is a quite huge pyramid there and some others in the waterfalls.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

The builders of the pyramids and the Eye of the North are the same.

I've discussed this within the [Lore] guild; and the bird sculptures, as Konig said, are too different from eachother.

I'm sorry if I'm not being coherent, mean, and if I'm making a lot of mistypes - more than usuall. I just woke up, and that creates a very bad effect in my mood.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 06, 2009, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

I'm starting to agree with you, Konig, but we shouldn't go further into it, until we get some new informations about this. As you've already stated we're going off-topic while raising the same questions and theories all the time.

Actually, we're going off topic because this thread is on the Krait's possibly occupying the Tarnished Coast structures, while we're going into the Depths and other structures possibly linked to them. As for me, only answers are being found. I have now also noted the most recent design of a certain type of structure (three things, almost identical, with the smallest differences! Who would have guessed that if we really look at things, we'd find something new from Prophecies!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

I'm sorry, but you are completely wrong. Again, I have to quote from Linsey's user talk:

As Liz said, that doesn't harm her arguments. Though what does is t hat the pyramids that are most commonly thought of are of a different design and said design exists throughout the depths in supposedly non-Asuran areas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

I was not suggesting, although I still consider the Mursaat and Seer as possible candidates from my point of view.

One thing is sure: it wasn't the Krait.

Mursaat and Seers are definitely candidates, though Mursaat is not likely, and nothing supports the Seers. And I agree, I doubt it's the Krait. Too much point against it. However, not enough to push it out from possible. Same goes with the Mursaat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eliz Genevieve

Whilst the quote you got doesn't cancel out my , uhm, 'theory' that the pyramids are indeed Asuran, the ruins that the quest 'O Brave New World' takes us to, destroys it. Because there is a quite huge pyramid there and some others in the waterfalls.

Then there is what I said. Which makes me think: The CTC must of had structures - such as the large pyramid we start on in Destruction's Depths - before the Asura occupied there. Which means whoever built it, were dangerously close to Primordus for some reason (could easily be coincidence, mind you).

Thalador Doomspeaker · Aug 06, 2009, 02:57 PM // 14:57

I grabbed my copy of Eye of the North Manuscript and read the whole, but alas, found nothing about what Eliz says. I checked even the in-game descriptions of every town and oupost (only one town) in the Tarnished Coast.

www.guildwars.com/gameplay/manuals.php

You can check it yourself.

Accidentally, I stumbled upon something quite interesting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eye of the North Manuscript

These natural caves and excavated areas house structures left behind by civilizations dating back to a time before the arrival of humans in Tyria.

Now, I'm not sure if it means the continent or the world by Tyria...

786 BE - Humans appear in Cantha for the first time and settle the northern coastline before spreading completely across the continent. Their development is unhindered by the Forgotten.

205 BE - Humans appear on Tyrian continent

Either way, it gave the builders quite some time to construct their magnificent underground and above ground structures.

Although, I still consider that the pyramids were built by the unknown civilization(s) Linsey and the Manuscript implies.

Sorry, for another off-topic post, but I didn't want to start a new thread with so less evidence on the theme.
Secondly, I'm still not experienced enough to make such great works like you do.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 06, 2009, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

I grabbed my copy of Eye of the North Manuscript and read the whole, but alas, found nothing about what Eliz says. I checked even the in-game descriptions of every town and oupost (only one town) in the Tarnished Coast.

That's because what Eliz quoted wasn't the manuscripts. It was a document about the Asura released before the game. It can be found in the Archives, it is titled "The Asura"

Archives post

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Accidentally, I stumbled upon something quite interesting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eye of the North Manuscript

These natural caves and excavated areas house structures left behind by civilizations dating back to a time before the arrival of humans in Tyria.

Now, I'm not sure if it means the continent or the world by Tyria...

786 BE - Humans appear in Cantha for the first time and settle the northern coastline before spreading completely across the continent. Their development is unhindered by the Forgotten.

205 BE - Humans appear on Tyrian continent

Either way, it gave the builders quite some time to construct their magnificent underground and above ground structures.

This is very interesting, thanks for pointing it out! And I think it means on the continent of Tyria, usually when it is the world being talked about it would be called "the world of Tyria" or just "the world" from what I recall. Only mention I know refers to the world and doesn't mention the world "world" would be the first sentence of "History of Tyria, Part I" - where it says the "soil of Tyria."

Ironically, looks like Leon's post of "not only that, elude any records with any of the oldest races either native to Tyria" will be true, if they are all this old, then records of the races would be hard to find. Just like for the Seers and Mursaat.

Eliz Genevieve · Aug 06, 2009, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Yep, I found that in the Archives. Sorry for the confusion.

So.. which races that we know of are older than the Humans? :|

Konig Des Todes · Aug 06, 2009, 06:27 PM // 18:27

That we know of:
Forgotten
Titan (not really a race, but meh)
Mursaat
Charr

That we suspect:
Dwarves
Seer

That is possible:
Centaur
Tengu
Frogmen
Dredge

Not counting non-Tyrian (continent) races.

Gmr Leon · Aug 07, 2009, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambitious

Since they are found in areas almost adjacent to ruins, and have no apparent lodgings, it may be that they inhabited those areas once upon a time. I'm not so sure that they specifically built those areas, but since their evolutionary structure is so complex I take it that they have been around for quite some time.

Don't discount the possibility of magic altering their evolution in some manner, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eliz Genevieve

They haven't - well, at least we don't know of any, and they do attack the Asura in explorables - any 'peace treaty' with the Asura; and have you seen how many Krait exist in Arbor Bay/Magus Stones? I don't have a clue in how did the Asura pushed them back to occupy where they once lived.

Er..That quoted bit from the Manuscripts doesn't disprove their having existed for quite a long time. That aside, as I pointed out in my OP, if I'm not mistaken at least, they could have used their technology.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

A highly doubt the Krait could build something like those pyramids. As you've already suggested the Krait have only one form which walks instead of slither: the Krait Necross. (The Arcanoss has legs but, it combines it's movement with its wings.) And they wouldn't build stairs if only one of their brethren/form uses its legs.

See my below rant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

The Krait are semi-intelligent, as stated in the Eye of the North Manuscripts. So they wouldn't be able to construct such magnificent pyramids.

Spiders make magnificent patterns in their webs, but they're not incredibly intelligent. Other sorts of spiders burrow into the ground, and make a cover over the burrow, so they can ambush prey. Ants create colonies that have chambers for specific purposes and a hierarchy, but are not on par with human level intelligence, bees are much the same way. Semi-intelligence does not mean impossibility of creating magnificent structures. A hive, in my opinion, albeit small, is still a rather magnificent feat for something like a bee. Humans are strange. We could easily be compared to these bees and ants, with recurring structures throughout our history, one of which being the pyramid. Ever notice that? Anyway, humanity hasn't done that in Tyria, so the correlation isn't there.

Also, see rant below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

IF they would have a civilization, then it could be found west of Magus Stones. And IF they would be well-organized (thus living in some form of society), then they could've eradicated the Asura already. Not just letting them walk around and building magic-sucking generators.

Any sufficiently advanced civilization will easily make short work of a less advanced civilization. Prime example: Native Americans as the English, Dutch, French, and Spanish colonized the Americas. Same could be said for the Australian Aborigines during English colonization, and, the Dutch, English, Flemish, and French colonization of Africa. In each of these situations, you have what can justifiably be deemed an organized civilization, being trumped by a more highly advanced civilization. Provided, they may not have been well-organized, but the point still stands that certain groups could have viably been called a civilization. Especially in the case of the Aztecs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Of what we know (key word: we don't know everything on the Krait yet), they are semi-sentient at least, they could have social classes (assuming the Hylek are indeed slaves), they have no known leadership or tools, they do have specialized skills (different professions), and no known religious belief.

Therefore, not a civilization.

Know what's really funny about looking at your list again? By going over bees and ants, aside from not having tools, a writing system, or a shared value system, (although this could be argued) one could argue that bees and ants have a micro-civilization.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I somehow doubt this. If this was the case, we'd most likely see such in Shards of Orr. Also, there is no mention of pyramids in Orrian structures. All we have is "white marble streets" and "spiral towers."

Personally, I don't think anything we see in Shards of Orr is indicative of common Orrian architecture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

I don't think so. Just look at my attached picture. That tower-like stuff is the Asuran modification and the pyramid is what belonged to that civilization. They totally differ. Now you could argue, that the pyramids are from an earlier age of Asuran architecture, and so that group of Asura built it after they left the other Asura. It's true, that we can find nearly the same structures in CTC, but Erff, from O Brave New world doesn't seem to recognize it and accept it that it was their architecture in the past.

Take some time, and go over the ruins in the caverns in Arbor Bay more meticulously. You'll see that those towers you say are the Asuran modifications there, which disproves that statement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

My votes:
Mursaat: 30%
Seers: 40%
Unknown civilization: 30%

Mine:
Forgotten: 1%
Seers: 1%
Orrian: 2%
Mursaat: 3%
Krait: 5%
Random Asuran Krewe: 7%
Unknown Civilization: 81%

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

The builders of the pyramids and the Eye of the North are the same. It's clear that the we can find the pyramid structures in the Tarnished Coast and in the CTC. So this civilization might have stretched through hundreds of kilometers in Tyria, or they were subterranean in some form.

I don't see why you don't see that as being incredibly unlikely, personally. The only civilization we're aware of that even comes close to expanding their domain that far were the Forgotten. Besides, as Konig pointed out, the design of the bird motifs is much, much different. The beaks on the bird motifs on the Eye of the North being sharper, and the overall head holding less detail, whereas the bird motif in the Tarnished Coast has a more rounded beak, and the overall head has more detail to it.

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Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

The Asura hate the open skies, so why would they carve such motives if they depict one of the symbols(?) of sky.

They don't necessarily hate the open skies, so much as they aren't used to them yet. Which is why one Krewe wants to lower the sky. If they hated it, they'd try to destroy it.

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Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

My theory about the size of their empire(?), because of the missing structures in Kryta and the Shiverpeaks has brought me to two points:
1.) Stretching throughout half of Tyria: their extinction/disappearance was caused by an unknown force, which erased almost all of their architecture in Kryta and the Shiverpeaks.

...And that isn't stretching it too much, either, in your opinion? The Roman Empire, one of the largest empires in Europe, still has ruins being discovered to this day. The Gods couldn't even hide every trace of Abaddon from Tyria, and they're, you know, Gods.

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Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

2.) Subterranean: after writing this Konig's suggestion came to my mind. This race/civilization could've been the first evolution of the Asura. (I mean the very first which lived on open terrains and liked being there.) They had some kind of travel network (the 'ancient' of the Asura Gate) so they could easily get to their city in CTC, and to the Eye from there. After they were nearly destroyed/killed they returned to their underground home, and evolved in to the Asura we see today.

Er..You do realize that with sufficient time, any ancient civilization's structures will find itself underneath dirt eventually, right?

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Unfortunately, more or less, though I am unsure if it wasn't an inhuman race, or if it was just a single race. Just, at the least, very good diggers with basic design ideas (except for one area which really intrigues the change!).

*points at above response*

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Originally Posted by Draxynnic

Well, one other mystery that can possibly be thrown into the Precursor question is the towers at and around Beetletun. Might be worth investigating them for similarities.

I've been wondering lately if that wasn't due to whatever civilization built the ruins or whatever in Vloxen Excavations, myself, as we haven't seen the in-between area from Watchtower Coast to Verdant Cascades. So..Possible ruins of a civilization there.

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Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

One thing is sure: it wasn't the Krait.

Not really. Until we have in-game dialogue from a NPC, a quest, or an out-of-game document such as the Manuscripts or another source noted as canon, we cannot be absolutely certain. Much the same as the case with the race or civilization that built the Eye of the North. Until we have solid evidence against it being built by a certain race, we can't be sure. The reason we can't connect it to the Mursaat, Seers, Gods, or Ancient Dragons, isn't because we don't want to, but because there's too little evidence to suggest it, the evidence we do have, as in that case being architecture, isn't similar, or the evidence doesn't suggest their presence there at any point in time in the past.

What you people are looking at as flaws in my theory are poor flaws to pick on. I've presented that two of their forms have arms that seem entirely capable of constructing buildings or structures, you point out that certain forms slither or fly, so they wouldn't need stairs, thus they wouldn't have built it. I can counter that with that not being their conventional form, but their form for the situation. You counter with semi-intelligence, I can counter that the Manuscripts have displayed inaccuracies or just blatant displays of ignorance.

The flaws you either do not see, or choose not to see, are the most particular flaws with any theory of this nature. That being, circumstantial evidence. In short, that the evidence I presented is dependent on very specific circumstances, in some cases. Such as, in my bridge screenshot, that depended very much so on waiting for their presence to be closer to the bridge, to capture it.

The cases which aren't circumstantial, are the rest of the screenshots I presented, as those are their natural locations or positions. However, the circumstantial evidence is what you should have been picking on if you wanted to make a more prominent argument. Circumstantial evidence is the weakest point in any theory, and ignoring it, is ignoring the easiest part to tear it down. For some reason, this same thing occurred with Quintus's Mursaat theories, but at least you all aren't just buying into my theory like hypnotized masses.

Whatever the case, I try very, very much so to avoid using circumstantial evidence or points in my theories due to the nature of them being easily countered or disproven.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Which means whoever built it, were dangerously close to Primordus for some reason (could easily be coincidence, mind you).

Or that, possibly, Primordus wasn't there when they built their structures.

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Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Either way, it gave the builders quite some time to construct their magnificent underground and above ground structures.

Assuming the underground structures weren't initially above ground, and over the centuries after their fall or disappearance, they were covered in ground. This is, of course, depending on the location of the ruins, in certain cases they would have definitely needed to be subterranean.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

That we know of:
Forgotten
Titan (not really a race, but meh)
Mursaat
Charr

That we suspect:
Dwarves
Seer

That is possible:
Centaur
Tengu
Frogmen
Dredge

Actually, Mursaat are not a known, they are still under suspected.

Alright, whew, I've been meaning to do this for awhile now, but I had and still have other work I need to do.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 07, 2009, 01:27 AM // 01:27

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Know what's really funny about looking at your list again? By going over bees and ants, aside from not having tools, a writing system, or a shared value system, (although this could be argued) one could argue that bees and ants have a micro-civilization.

Some would argue that if it doesn't have a majority of the list, it's not any kind of civilization. I.e., there is no "micro-civilization" - either is, or isn't a civilization, and 4 of 6 are needed to make it a civilization.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Personally, I don't think anything we see in Shards of Orr is indicative of common Orrian architecture.

Debatable. We do see structures, but those looks more like what I'd expect in the "slums of Orr" not something like Arah. Though we also see at least one thing which is common among the other dungeons: the statue of a man with a sword and helmet.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Mine:
Forgotten: 1%
Seers: 1%
Orrian: 2%
Mursaat: 3%
Krait: 5%
Random Asuran Krewe: 7%
Unknown Civilization: 81%

Mine:
Forgotten: 2%
Seers: 10%
Orrian: 1%
Mursaat: 1%
Krait: 1%
Random Asuran Krewe: 20%
Unknown Civilization: 65%

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

They don't necessarily hate the open skies, so much as they aren't used to them yet. Which is why one Krewe wants to lower the sky. If they hated it, they'd try to destroy it.

I'd say a reason the Asura would use a bird motif would be that the ability to fly without a device interests them, much like it did humans around Leonardo's time (and before and after).

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

...And that isn't stretching it too much, either, in your opinion? The Roman Empire, one of the largest empires in Europe, still has ruins being discovered to this day. The Gods couldn't even hide every trace of Abaddon from Tyria, and they're, you know, Gods.

One must admit, this race had to be advance to some degree - lack of magic, spread throughout half of Tyria, and with a very very welt built structures for them to survive today. The most ruined structures that could be linked to others are in the Catacombs (in the southern-most section).

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Er..You do realize that with sufficient time, any ancient civilization's structures will find itself underneath dirt eventually, right?

Which is what makes me more interested in the dungeon structures. Were they built underground, or did they sink? Some areas claim the later, some the former. Perhaps both were the case? Either way, we know two spots at least are dig sites. I think it was a combination, personally, some portions were underground, some of which possibly caved in, and others were most likely above ground.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I've been wondering lately if that wasn't due to whatever civilization built the ruins or whatever in Vloxen Excavations, myself, as we haven't seen the in-between area from Watchtower Coast to Verdant Cascades. So..Possible ruins of a civilization there.

I'll have to be shown these towers in game, because the only ones I see are pure Krytan... Unless you guys are meaning the reason those towers were built?

In which case, Zoldark (who is a bit of a giant) could easily have been the old threat. One would think it would say undead threat not giant threat though...

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

but at least you all aren't just buying into my theory like hypnotized masses.

I've learned to never fully buy into even my own theories. Despite how much I believe a theory of mine is correct, like oh say Arachnia, I always leave open the possibility of being incorrect.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Or that, possibly, Primordus wasn't there when they built their structures.

I HIGHLY doubt that this race existed before 10,000 BE.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Actually, Mursaat are not a known, they are still under suspected.

I believe it was said that the Mursaat and Titans are as old as the Forgotten. Titans I know of, and I believe it was said the Mursaat were as old as the Titans somewhere.

Thalador Doomspeaker · Aug 07, 2009, 10:12 AM // 10:12

Leon, we can argue until Judgement Day, but can't you never accept that the Krait is the most unlikely for building pyramids?
I know that you and Konig have countered my semi-intelligence theory on the Krait, but why would they need fancy buildings?
It seems that the Krait likes watery areas much more (the pools in Magus Stones, and almost the whole Arbor Bay area).

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Take some time, and go over the ruins in the caverns in Arbor Bay more meticulously. You'll see that those towers you say are the Asuran modifications there, which disproves that statement.

gw027=Structures found among the Arbor Bay ruins - gw047=Asuran architecture

Well, I must admit it's strange, but it doesn't confute the fact that the buildings seen in Rata Sum are Asuran structures. Although, it's possible that those buildings are the campsite of the Asuran builders from O Brave New World.
Just take a look on my previous attachments. You can see the differences between the pyramids and the buildings:

gw040=Pyramid with Asuran modification

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I don't see why you don't see that as being incredibly unlikely, personally. The only civilization we're aware of that even comes close to expanding their domain that far were the Forgotten. Besides, as Konig pointed out, the design of the bird motifs is much, much different. The beaks on the bird motifs on the Eye of the North being sharper, and the overall head holding less detail, whereas the bird motif in the Tarnished Coast has a more rounded beak, and the overall head has more detail to it.

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Originally Posted by Myself

The motives can prove a lot, and the little differences between the Eye one and pyramid one is the importance of the structure.
Pyramid 'bird'->used for simple structures
Eye 'bird'->their greatest project/monument

It was a speculation.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 07, 2009, 02:14 PM // 14:14

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Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Leon, we can argue until Judgement Day, but can't you never accept that the Krait is the most unlikely for building pyramids?

It's one's own opinion. I find it highly impossible that they are by the Mursaat or Forgotten. I find it just as unlikely for it to be the Krait. Just because you don't think they couldn't, or wouldn't, build the structures doesn't mean they didn't.

Assuming the Tarnished Coast ruins are indeed connected to those in the Depths, then yes, Krait would be tossed out the window so fast not even Superman could catch it. But until we know that, they are just as likely to be ancient asuran ruins as Seer, Mursaat, Orrian, or Krait. From there, it's one own opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

I know that you and Konig have countered my semi-intelligence theory on the Krait, but why would they need fancy buildings?
It seems that the Krait likes watery areas much more (the pools in Magus Stones, and almost the whole Arbor Bay area).

One word: shelter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Well, I must admit it's strange, but it doesn't confute the fact that the buildings seen in Rata Sum are Asuran structures. Although, it's possible that those buildings are the campsite of the Asuran builders from O Brave New World.
Just take a look on my previous attachments. You can see the differences between the pyramids and the buildings:

The only Asuran modificiation I see, would be the floating objects. The only thing which is not in the ruins (whether Arbor Bay, or in the Depths). Different design does not mean different creators. Both the neo-classical architecture and the gothic architecture existed at the same time periods, one was more common than the other, but they were both european structures.

draxynnic · Aug 07, 2009, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Know what's really funny about looking at your list again? By going over bees and ants, aside from not having tools, a writing system, or a shared value system, (although this could be argued) one could argue that bees and ants have a micro-civilization.

I'd argue writing in the case of ants, actually - chemical trails and such can almost certainly be seen as an analogue to writing. Bees I don't know well enough to know if they have an equivalent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

In which case, Zoldark (who is a bit of a giant) could easily have been the old threat. One would think it would say undead threat not giant threat though...

Now, this is a long shot, but... what if Zoldark has a similar history to the Vizier's? Maybe not as responsible for the destruction of his(?) civilisation as the Vizier, but another case of having 'survived' by becoming undead.