Curse

Thalador Doomspeaker · Jul 23, 2009, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Okay, now I understand and agree with you. And as I've promised before I cancel all of my statements which have no proof and/or only speculations.
By the way thanks for the arguement. I gained a lot of experience from it that I can use in the future.
And I'll attend your next theories and threads with great interest.

Eliz Genevieve · Jul 23, 2009, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

My take on it is simply: One, why would the Mursaat settle there, and why isn't there anything there that resembles something you might expect of them? Given their nature, I'd expect something..Grandiose, flamboyant, something displaying their ego, showing their pride in themselves. Not just sitting around in old ruins, repairing/renovating them, and then not giving them their own touch. It just seems completely unlike the Mursaat. Look at the Soul Batteries, for Grenth's sake. They're constructed in the image of the Mursaat. Built by the White Mantle? Possibly, but they have the properties to contain souls, which suggests possible Mursaat construction.

My question still remains. For what reason? Why? Especially if it isn't their homeland. The only time an entire civilization decides to move is normally due to a dearth of natural resources, a disaster, political purposes, or some other variety of reasons.

That's exactly what I tried to say. It just doesn't make sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker
Okay, now I understand and agree with you. And as I've promised before I cancel all of my statements which have no proof and/or only speculations.
By the way thanks for the arguement. I gained a lot of experience from it that I can use in the future.
And I'll attend your next theories and threads with great interest.

That's Leon's magic alright.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 23, 2009, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eliz Genevieve

Stairs are partially Asuran architecure, because of the bird-like thinguies.

...

So there could be no stairs.

Explain the stairs on the giant pyramid then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Konig, I was only speculating, and you've not read it carefully enough. The quotations above tell everything. Riven Earth is quite close to the area of the Ullen River I was thinking as a possible location of Mursaat cities/outposts. And I say this again: while we are exploring those areas we can't find something menacing enough, aside from that Destroyer crater. But we know that the Destroyers arrived there later.

If any object was left, it would have been found. And again, Riven Earth is not near Old Jones' route - which is the main flaw in your argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Okay, I logged on with my main character and opened my map. I've explored all those lands at 100% and I can't find anything fitting for a dense forest, except the Magumma. Just open any fully explored map and you can see it yourself: the only blurry part is the mountains east of Kessex Peak. Aside from that I can't find more areas dense enough until the Maguuma and the areas near the Giant Basin. And I accept that maybe they've taken Saul to those areas.

The area between Giant's Basin and Verdant Cascades is the area I meant for another jungle. Or off the map (though that is less likely).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Sorry, but you belive that a single race, even the Mursaat, could build towers that reach the heavens?!
Nobody is able to do such a thing, except the gods, maybe.

No, but I would expect the towers to be at least taller than human structures. Ascalon City and even the ruins throughout Ascalon are taller than those towers.

Thalador Doomspeaker, you seemed to completely ignore the fact that the location of the "unseen" force (never says what it is afterall) is in the unexplorable area between where Old Jones is and Riverside Province (outpost). Which is the main thing against what you have said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Let's get back to the point. The Mursaat might have settled down on those ruins, and they were not in war, so they didn't have to build Jade fortresses and Jade soldiers. And it seems that the jade is their "natural" resource, from which they would build.

And as Kerwyn said before, the Mursaat use the jade to build defensive structures, ether seals, jade soldiers. It seems again that it's the resource for their war machine.
Another point would be that the jade is much durable than mere stone. And as I said before, they were not in war with anyone at that time (perhaps I'm wrong, and again I'm speculating, so please don't tear down my head).

I'll give you and Kerwyn the jade being battle resources argument. And just a note: The Mursaat, though at an unknown time, did have a war with the Seers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I'm not responding for Konig, although we often share the same or similar thoughts on lore-related matters, but I always thought of it merely as being a basic description. Like if a man from a third-world country completely ignorant to the architecture of cities of first-world countries somehow stumbled into such a city were to describe skyscrapers.

That is, more or less, what I was meaning. Not towers that literally reach to the heavens (that is literally impossible) but instead towers of immense height that it's hard to see the end when at the bottom - or simply towers taller than any other structure the man has seen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Konig ... tends to have a bit of a (unintended?) harsh tone in his posts

I blame my germanic ancestry and short temper. :x Yes, unintended.

Eliz Genevieve · Jul 23, 2009, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Explain the stairs on the giant pyramid then.

I've got it all explained in GWO.. And somewhere in the GWEN Manuscripts states that the Pyramids are, indeed, asuran made.

EDIT:
uhm, here:

Quote:

Originally posted by The Eye Of The North Manuscripts
In addition to pyramids and great gates, the Asura erected geomystic generators to focus the magical energies brimming in the Tarnished Coast to further aid in their research. They also built large forges and kilns to produce prototypes and finished magical devices."

Konig Des Todes · Jul 23, 2009, 10:50 PM // 22:50

I still find stairs to be Asuran made to be quite... ridiculous.

Have you looked at how they walk? There is NO way their legs can easily go up steps that would work for humans. Even on a ramp I'd say that they'd have troubles going up and down to be honest.

Eliz Genevieve · Jul 23, 2009, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eliz Genevieve

Stairs are partially Asuran architecure, because of the bird-like thinguies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I still find stairs to be Asuran made to be quite... ridiculous.

Have you looked at how they walk? There is NO way their legs can easily go up steps that would work for humans. Even on a ramp I'd say that they'd have troubles going up and down to be honest.

Partially is the key word there.
Also, the stairs exist only in their cities. That.. uhm, lab in the southeast corner of Alcazia has a ramp, not a stair. Would that mean anyhing?

Konig Des Todes · Jul 24, 2009, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Only confusion. The cities and CTC are still mainly Asuran.

Eliz Genevieve · Jul 24, 2009, 12:23 AM // 00:23

So, why the stairs? x_x

The original builders of those structures must've walked upright.

draxynnic · Jul 24, 2009, 03:28 AM // 03:28

On the connection between Mursaat structures and jade, one thought strikes my mind: Most jade artifacts are magical in some form (jade constructs, soul batteries, attached to an ether seal). It's possible that the jade is the material of choice for magic items, but more mundane architecture can be made out of whatever is convenient. Since it seems that the Mursaat campaign in the Shiverpeaks was being carried out from the Ring of Fire (that's where the gate we go through from Thunderhead Keep leads, anyway...) it's also possible that the preponderance of jade we see comes because that's the most convenient magical material that can be created from resources in the Ring of Fire, but Mursaat in other parts of the world might use other materials instead.

On the other hand, the pyramids and such still don't look anything like what you'd expect Mursaat architecture to look like from Prophecies. To be honest, the bird motif doesn't exactly seem appropriate for the until recently subterranean Asura, either. (I could see it in GW2 as a symbol of their new life on the surface, but in EOTN they still seemed pretty much in denial).

The gripping hand is that, due to the amount of reused artwork, it's hard to draw convincing lore conclusions from EOTN in general and the Tarnished Coast in particular, since anything we find may be something that was supposed to have meaning in Utopia, but was pushed into EOTN because it had already been done and they didn't want to waste the work. So, for instance, the ruins in the Tarnished Coast might have been intended to be Mursaat, but since the Tarnished Coast zones are largely transplanted Utopia leftovers, we get the Mesoamerican architecture instead of something more characteristically Mursaat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

You're absolutely right that it's a one-way transformation, which is something I observed while exploring and researching. I think it might be the case of a normal form to a combatant form, personally, or, perhaps, simply a more useful form. Often, during the midst of battle, if they hadn't undergone Metamorphosis at the beginning, I found that they would transform into either a Necross or Devouss, most commonly. So it almost seems to be an intelligent act of survival when nearly annihilated.

Personally, I hadn't noticed a correlation between delaying metamorphosis and what they change into. That said, I haven't really been paying much attention, but my gut is telling me that the last low-level Neoss is at least as likely to be an Arcanoss as a Devouss. In fact, thinking on it, in what I can remember from my experience is that Devousses tend to be among the first to change if they're in a mob (which makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint - be a specialised healer when there are still allies to heal).

If there is a correlation between time of metamorphosis and post-change identity, however, this could as easily be explained by some forms being more reluctant to change prematurely than others rather than the form taken being an intelligent choice.

Quote:

Often, when you have thought you killed them, you were completely mistaken. A Krait can complete Metamorphosis and remain there momentarily before it transforms, and as such, in that moment between its transformation, you may kill it, and this may sort of propel it into its next form.

True, but other times the Neoss dies before the bar fills and the corpse is exploited, and the new form STILL pops. You'd think the critter would be in pretty bad shape by the time its bones climbed out and started walking around on its own.

Of course, this could be a similar lore/mechanics snarl as Mantids show in the Charr Homelands, which can still be exploited even when they're actually not quite dead yet. However, they normally pop back up seriously injured rather than at full health, while the mechanics of the game appears to deal with Krait metamorphosis simply be despawning the original creature and spawning a new one. On the other hand, it could also be a hint that the final form is in fact a new creature.

Eliz Genevieve · Jul 24, 2009, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

On the other hand, the pyramids and such still don't look anything like what you'd expect Mursaat architecture to look like from Prophecies. To be honest, the bird motif doesn't exactly seem appropriate for the until recently subterranean Asura, either. (I could see it in GW2 as a symbol of their new life on the surface, but in EOTN they still seemed pretty much in denial).

Not exactly.

The bird motifs also appear in the CTC stairs, wich means that they just 'brought' that piece of design to aboveground.

I found something that, after reading carefully this thread is.. interesting.

I was wandering through youtube, watching a coulpe of trailers, and something caught my attention. In the GWEN trailer, at exactly 1:15 minutes (in this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaCHRHKoDn4) we actually see a Devouss flying through the Geomystic Generators of Rata Sum.

It's the only pic we got from the Tarnishes Coast in the trailer, so it could've been just a way of puting the Krait along with an Asuran city, but still..

Konig Des Todes · Jul 24, 2009, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eliz Genevieve

we actually see a Devouss flying through the Geomystic Generators of Rata Sum.

I remember that as well. Was expecting to see that in game at some point. Could help or not matter with this theory.

draxynnic · Jul 25, 2009, 11:23 AM // 11:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eliz Genevieve

Not exactly.

The bird motifs also appear in the CTC stairs, wich means that they just 'brought' that piece of design to aboveground.

Aye. But my point was... why would a subterranean and, during the period of EOTN, agoraphobic race preferentially use a creature of the air in their architecture? Could the CTC be just another case of recycled work from EOTN?

If the answer is "no", we're still left with the first question - which could lead in interesting directions regarding Asura (pre-)history but, alas, I doubt any of them would be verifiable.

Eliz Genevieve · Jul 25, 2009, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Pointed that way it does seem strange.. but I got the idea that the bird designs are asuran because of the Foundry.

Every area covered with the ruins *without the intervention of the asura on it* appear without the bird-like motifs, and the ruins that were recicle by the Asura appear with the bird designs.

Now the 'why' of that..

MartynThompson · Jul 27, 2009, 10:38 AM // 10:38

the krait and naga could be some how related

Eliz Genevieve · Jul 27, 2009, 11:38 AM // 11:38

explain yourself? Just because some of their forms look serpentine..

Arduin · Jul 27, 2009, 11:46 AM // 11:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartynThompson

the krait and naga could be some how related

It's called convergent evolution.

Thalador Doomspeaker · Jul 27, 2009, 02:58 PM // 14:58

I was exploring the ruins in Arbor Bay, which is the place where the quest 'O Brave New World' takes place. In this quest those structures look like the pyramids the Asura use. I've made some screens:

And there's another important thing: those buildings are destructed. It would seem that this area was hit by a catastrophe. Perhaps a landslide or an earthquake.
Now it seems that the Asura see this place for the first time and they find it fitting for construction.
If the Asura built those pyramids in Rata Sum then the pyramids might belonged to another tribe of Asura which came to the Tarnished Coast before the other Asura arrived. And you can see it in one of my picture, that this place is in some kind of cave and there's only one break where the sun shines in.

I maybe wrong about this like before :S

Gmr Leon · Jul 27, 2009, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartynThompson

the krait and naga could be some how related

Their body structure appears far too different, much like the difference between the Naga and the Forgotten.

Eliz Genevieve · Jul 27, 2009, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

I was exploring the ruins in Arbor Bay, which is the place where the quest 'O Brave New World' takes place. In this quest those structures look like the pyramids the Asura use. I've made some screens:

And there's another important thing: those buildings are destructed. It would seem that this area was hit by a catastrophe. Perhaps a landslide or an earthquake.
Now it seems that the Asura see this place for the first time and they find it fitting for construction.
If the Asura built those pyramids in Rata Sum then the pyramids might belonged to another krewe of Asura which came to the Tarnished Coast before the other Asura arrived. And you can see it in one of my picture, that this place is in some kind of cave and there's only one break where the sun shines in.

I maybe wrong about this like before :S

Krewe. Not tribe.

And yes, those are ruins that 'belonged' to the race that originally built them. As the Asura found the ruins in Rata/Vlox's/CTC, they found those ones.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 27, 2009, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduinna

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartynThompson

the krait and naga could be some how related

It's called convergent evolution.

What traits are similar? It could be same for Saltspray Dragons and Krait if we go by looks. Or Forgotten and Krait. Or the Bone Dragons and Krait. It's just re-use of models.

Their only relation would be that the Krait and Naga (and Forgotten) are serpentine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

I was exploring the ruins in Arbor Bay, which is the place where the quest 'O Brave New World' takes place. In this quest those structures look like the pyramids the Asura use. I've made some screens:

And there's another important thing: those buildings are destructed. It would seem that this area was hit by a catastrophe. Perhaps a landslide or an earthquake.
Now it seems that the Asura see this place for the first time and they find it fitting for construction.
If the Asura built those pyramids in Rata Sum then the pyramids might belonged to another tribe of Asura which came to the Tarnished Coast before the other Asura arrived. And you can see it in one of my picture, that this place is in some kind of cave and there's only one break where the sun shines in.

I maybe wrong about this like before :S

Surprisingly enough (or not) this was the whole issue of the confusion of the ruins. The Pyramid is seen in the Central Transfer Chamber. The only thing the Arbor Bay ruins don't have are the generators and other various floating objects. No offense, but you've merely just restated everything discussed on this so far - leaving out the Krait as a possible race for those that built the ruins.