Curse

Thalador Doomspeaker · Aug 11, 2009, 06:22 PM // 18:22

I've found it:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linsey Murdock

You do fight the Great Destroyer but the idea is that it is just the least of your worries, which I think we communicated fairly well. This is a foreshadowing of what is to come in GW2. I am sorry you were disappointed, but I don't really know what else to say about that.

Although it's a very weak confirmation.
1.) Linsey is not in the Lore team.
2.) As Konig mentioned it:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Despite living up to the prophecy, I find it hard to believe that a god or god-like being was evenly matched with the Great Destroyer, which was easier than a chained god. Game mechanically speaking or Lore speaking...

Your "Great Destroyer" is not that strong to be compared to something 'godlike', like the Great Dwarf, even if the GD had an army of Destroyers protecting it.

I shall not say that Linsey's confirmation is wrong, it's possible, but I think it's very unlikely that we fought the real Great Destroyer.

Free Runner · Aug 11, 2009, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Linsey is not in the Lore team.

Yet she worked very closely on Eye of the North. Just because shes not one of the lore writers doesnt mean she is wrong about all details.

Quote:

Your "Great Destroyer" is not that strong to be compared to something 'godlike', like the Great Dwarf, even if the GD had an army of Destroyers protecting it.

You cant exactly say that until we've finally been show what the Great Dwarf is. How do you know the Great Dwarf isnt on the same level as the Great Destroyer?

Your "godlike Great Dwarf" didnt step in to fight against the Great Destroyer, all it did was use the exact same power the Great Destroyer uses with the difference being instead of being hell bent on destroying life, the Dwarves became hellbent on destroying Destroyers.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 11, 2009, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

And after all this i remembered something wrote in reply to someone saying they thought we didnt fight the Great Destroyer. It was somewere on the wiki (i think Linseys page) where someone said we probably didnt fight the Great Destroyer and Linsey replied saying we did fight the actual Great Destroyer but the idea behind it was we fought off a huge threat that was unveiling a bigger much more terrifying threat as a foreshadowing to GW2. I'll try and find it.

Linsey did say the Great Destroyer was meant to look weak(er). But I don't recall her ever saying it was the real Great Destroyer.

---
Edit:
And looking at Linsey's comment, she doesn't use "real" Great Destroyer, but she seems to make it clear that is the Great Destroyer in the prophecy. So I'm still rather split on this. It doesn't really seem to me to be a "Great Destroyer" that was equal to a being worshiped as a god (and by all means, very well could be), but yet it does fulfill the prophecy of the Great Destroyer.

Only answer I have would be that there were two Great Destroyers: The one the Great Dwarf fought and sealed the powers of, and Mr. Alarm Clock. The prophecy talking about the later (in terms of returning), which had no name was was called the Great Destroyer because it was a great "Destroyer" - while the original were possibly a stronger being on par with a deity-like being.

It could very well be that the Great Dwarf fought a previous alarm clock, preventing Primordus' awakening, and realized that another alarm clock would eventually come. And for the name part, it could be that the Great Dwarf instead removed information of the Ancient Dragons (like the five gods did of knowledge of Abaddon *and seemingly of Dhuum as well*).
---

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

Your "godlike Great Dwarf" didnt step in to fight against the Great Destroyer, all it did was use the exact same power the Great Destroyer uses with the difference being instead of being hell bent on destroying life, the Dwarves became hellbent on destroying Destroyers.

You forget, the Great Dwarf could be dead (of course, he/she/it might not be as well). I personally believe the Great Dwarf was the predecessor of one of the current gods, excluding Kormir and Grenth; Balthazar fits well with the forge/war idea, and cannot be the predecessor of Melandru (both are attributed to creating the world - then again, do we know those two *and probably four others* made the world? But that's off topic).

Free Runner · Aug 11, 2009, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

And looking at Linsey's comment, she doesn't use "real" Great Destroyer, but she seems to make it clear that is the Great Destroyer in the prophecy. So I'm still rather split on this.

Erm...she doesnt say its the real Great Destroyer but makes it clear it the same one from the prophecy? wouldnt that be the real one?

Quote:

It doesn't really seem to me to be a "Great Destroyer" that was equal to a being worshiped as a god (and by all means, very well could be), but yet it does fulfill the prophecy of the Great Destroyer.

As far as i'm aware only one group seems to try worshipping it/refferring to it as a god. And thats the Stone Summit who are quite obviously choosing the opposing side of the Great Dwarf. The Charr try to worship the Destroyers of course but....yeah we all know why that was.

But i dont recall it ever being called or compared to a god by the Dwarves. Only a creature that opposed the Great Dwarf and could bring about doomsday.

On the topic of the Great Dwarf being dead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alkar

The Tome of the Rubicon is once again safe. Maybe one day, when the Great Dwarf returns from his eternal slumber, the world will be ready to uncover what we have buried here today.

I thought that part was quite interesting as its one of the only times the Great Dwarfs situation is reffered to.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 11, 2009, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

Erm...she doesnt say its the real Great Destroyer but makes it clear it the same one from the prophecy? wouldnt that be the real one?

That is what I was saying....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

As far as i'm aware only one group seems to try worshipping it/refferring to it as a god. And thats the Stone Summit who are quite obviously choosing the opposing side of the Great Dwarf. The Charr try to worship the Destroyers of course but....yeah we all know why that was.

But i dont recall it ever being called or compared to a god by the Dwarves. Only a creature that opposed the Great Dwarf and could bring about doomsday.

Uhhhhh I said it was equal to something worshiped as a god, not that it is worshiped as a god. I.e., it's (near) equal (in power) to the Great Dwarf.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

On the topic of the Great Dwarf being dead.

I thought that part was quite interesting as its one of the only times the Great Dwarfs situation is reffered to.

That is interesting, and means the Great Dwarf put itself into a similar state as the Ancient Dragons (which would also be the state of the Great Destroyer). But then again, I don't think any follower will say it's deity is dead.

Gmr Leon · Aug 11, 2009, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Then it's more than a possibility, but prove your statement, please.

I wasn't tired while I posted that, but, I was quite busy, so I apologize, I was thinking of the Great Destroyer and the Destroyers being connected. However, while the link is not displayed in-game, I think it is more or less indicated by the Movement of the World that they were in fact connected. Otherwise, the demise of the Great Destroyer would not have delayed Primordus's awakening.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

But I was trying to say, that the Dragons might have went to sleep at different times. So, the Great Dwarf's possible location would be the Northern Shiverpeaks. When Primordus arrived, they started to fight, and somehow the Great Dwarf "sealed his name", thus stripping its power. It's possible, that the "Great Dwarf knocked out Primordus", but we can't know that for sure. IF Primordus is really the true Great Destroyer, of course.

The second part of my theory was about the depiction or description of Destroyers. After all, only the Great Dwarf saw the real Great Destroyer. And if the dwarves had some description about the Destroyers from the legendary tale, they could've easily thought that Primordus' large general is their arch enemy.

Ok, that's what I was thinking you were saying, but the way it was written out made it appear as though you were jumping from idea to idea, which, well, you were.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

If anything, the Great Dwarf was created after Primordus.

Or formed, or usurped another God or Goddess, or what-have-you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

But there's a little problem. Primordus had created the Destroyers and the Great Destroyers before he went to sleep. After all he couldn't do it while he was sleeping/encased in that stone (can't use his breath to corrupt/give life to stone). The question is, how did the Great Destroyer we know, get to the Central Transfer Chamber? I would like to point out, that the Great Dwarf fought either the Great Destroyer or Primordus. If he fought Primordus, then the "Great Destroyer" and the other Destroyers were present at that time, and it is 95% that they fought where Primordus was "entombed".

If he fought with only the Great Destroyer, then Primordus was asleep. The other question is, where did they fight they last battle? In Primordus' 'chamber' or elsewhere?

I wouldn't be so quick to say that Primordus created the Destroyers and the Great Destroyer before it went to sleep. It's just as viable that it "bled" enough magic over the centuries till the present to form the Great Destroyer or recently began "bleeding" enough to do so. After that, the Great Destroyer ran with the plans, creating the Destroyers itself to achieve the goal it was created to achieve.

As to where they fought the last battle, it's hard to say, as we took out the Great Destroyer around the beginning of its actions. If after sufficient progress had been made by it, it actually moved out of Primordus's chamber, then it's possible it was elsewhere. However, if even after sufficient progress had been made it remained there, then it's entirely possible the last battle took place there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

It could very well be that the Great Dwarf fought a previous alarm clock, preventing Primordus' awakening, and realized that another alarm clock would eventually come. And for the name part, it could be that the Great Dwarf instead removed information of the Ancient Dragons (like the five gods did of knowledge of Abaddon *and seemingly of Dhuum as well*).

This is probably one of the better ideas I've heard posed here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

(both are attributed to creating the world)

I still don't see where you're getting that the Great Dwarf is said to have created the world, as far as I can recall, no Dwarf has ever said that. At most, they've said their race was made by the Great Dwarf, supposedly on Anvil Rock, but nothing more than that.

draxynnic · Aug 12, 2009, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

---
Edit:
And looking at Linsey's comment, she doesn't use "real" Great Destroyer, but she seems to make it clear that is the Great Destroyer in the prophecy. So I'm still rather split on this. It doesn't really seem to me to be a "Great Destroyer" that was equal to a being worshiped as a god (and by all means, very well could be), but yet it does fulfill the prophecy of the Great Destroyer.

Only answer I have would be that there were two Great Destroyers: The one the Great Dwarf fought and sealed the powers of, and Mr. Alarm Clock. The prophecy talking about the later (in terms of returning), which had no name was was called the Great Destroyer because it was a great "Destroyer" - while the original were possibly a stronger being on par with a deity-like being.

It could very well be that the Great Dwarf fought a previous alarm clock, preventing Primordus' awakening, and realized that another alarm clock would eventually come. And for the name part, it could be that the Great Dwarf instead removed information of the Ancient Dragons (like the five gods did of knowledge of Abaddon *and seemingly of Dhuum as well*).
---

This actually raises an interesting question...

The Great Dwarf took the name of the Great Destroyer (and with it, most of its power) before sealing it away. What if the name wasn't spoken, but the Great Destroyer managed to break out anyway? This would allow it to be the same Great Destroyer that the Great Dwarf fought without necessarily being of the same power level.

Of course, this begs the question of why the Great Dwarf didn't just kill it, but the gods do seem to have a tendency to leave Sealed Evil In Cans lying around the place...

Konig Des Todes · Aug 12, 2009, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I still don't see where you're getting that the Great Dwarf is said to have created the world, as far as I can recall, no Dwarf has ever said that. At most, they've said their race was made by the Great Dwarf, supposedly on Anvil Rock, but nothing more than that.

I think it is linked with Anvil Rock somewhere... I'll have to look around when I'm less tired.

Thalador Doomspeaker · Aug 12, 2009, 07:59 AM // 07:59

The Great Dwarf was neither dead nor hibernating.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Dwarf (cinematic)

Jalis Ironhammer: "The Great Dwarf's power is upon you all!"

"Hurrah! For Deldrimor!"

Jalis Ironhammer: "The final battle lies before us! Great Destroyer against Great Dwarf!"

"Hurrah!"

Jalis Ironhammer: "In victory, the Dwarves will be changed forevermore!"

"Hurrah!"

Jalis Ironhammer: "We are ALL the Great Dwarf now!"

"Hurrah! For Deldrimor!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jalis Ironhammer

The moment of Dwarven destiny is almost at hand. We know the location of the Great Destroyer and must now seek the power and guidance of the Great Dwarf. For that, we will need the Hammer of the Great Dwarf, an ancient and powerful relic hidden deep within the mountains themselves.

I would say that the Great Dwarf entered the spiritual realm, or became one with his hammer (becoming a spirit and entering his legendary weapon). So, when his people needed him for the last time(?), he could become one with every dwarf.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

You cant exactly say that until we've finally been show what the Great Dwarf is. How do you know the Great Dwarf isnt on the same level as the Great Destroyer?

Your "godlike Great Dwarf" didnt step in to fight against the Great Destroyer, all it did was use the exact same power the Great Destroyer uses with the difference being instead of being hell bent on destroying life, the Dwarves became hellbent on destroying Destroyers.

I say that the Great Dwarf is stronger. Just think of it: when every dwarf "became the Great Dwarf" they were still vastly outnumbered by the Destroyers. And they've still won the battle in Destruction's Depths. (It's lore-speaking, because I saw how easily they are killed by the Destroyers.)
If we would've sent them to the chamber of Primordus/the Great Destroyer, they would've killed the "Great Destroyer". (Lore-speaking)

Free Runner · Aug 12, 2009, 11:23 AM // 11:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

I say that the Great Dwarf is stronger. Just think of it: when every dwarf "became the Great Dwarf" they were still vastly outnumbered by the Destroyers. And they've still won the battle in Destruction's Depths. (It's lore-speaking, because I saw how easily they are killed by the Destroyers.)
If we would've sent them to the chamber of Primordus/the Great Destroyer, they would've killed the "Great Destroyer". (Lore-speaking)

As Vekk makes clear, the Dwarves even with the power of the Great Dwarf, were going to have a problem fighting against more Destroyer waves after taking back the Central Transfer Chamber. Thats why the golems are left with them and the heroes quickly sneak off to the Great Destroyers chamber. And in Destructions Depths they had help from three other groups.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 12, 2009, 11:47 AM // 11:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

The Great Dwarf was neither dead nor hibernating.

Tell me, do you see the Great Dwarf?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

I would say that the Great Dwarf entered the spiritual realm, or became one with his hammer (becoming a spirit and entering his legendary weapon). So, when his people needed him for the last time(?), he could become one with every dwarf.

I don't think spirits work that way... Nothing supports a spirit being able to enter multiple beings. One being or object, yes, multiple, no.

Then there is the fact that when a spirit enters an object, they control the object. Think Shiro'Ken or Enchanted Armor/Weapons.

Nothing supports the Great Dwarf actually being there. Only his/her/its power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

I say that the Great Dwarf is stronger. Just think of it: when every dwarf "became the Great Dwarf" they were still vastly outnumbered by the Destroyers. And they've still won the battle in Destruction's Depths. (It's lore-speaking, because I saw how easily they are killed by the Destroyers.)
If we would've sent them to the chamber of Primordus/the Great Destroyer, they would've killed the "Great Destroyer". (Lore-speaking)

Even lore speaking, the dwarves still didn't stand a chance against the destroyers. Look at the cinematic after beating Destructive Depths. They only survived well because of the joined forces.

Thalador Doomspeaker · Aug 12, 2009, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Tell me, do you see the Great Dwarf?

No, I don't, but the question was not about the 'visibility' of the Great Dwarf, rather the its status (Dead/Alive, Hibernating/Conscious, etc.).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I don't think spirits work that way... Nothing supports a spirit being able to enter multiple beings. One being or object, yes, multiple, no.

Then there is the fact that when a spirit enters an object, they control the object. Think Shiro'Ken or Enchanted Armor/Weapons.

Nothing supports the Great Dwarf actually being there. Only his/her/its power.

Last time I checked, you didn't have doctor's degree about spirits and supernatural events/objects. How do you know for sure, that it's impossible? Jalis knows what he's doing, and if he says, that his god is within him and in his people, then I believe him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

As Vekk makes clear, the Dwarves even with the power of the Great Dwarf, were going to have a problem fighting against more Destroyer waves after taking back the Central Transfer Chamber. Thats why the golems are left with them and the heroes quickly sneak off to the Great Destroyers chamber. And in Destructions Depths they had help from three other groups.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Even lore speaking, the dwarves still didn't stand a chance against the destroyers. Look at the cinematic after beating Destructive Depths. They only survived well because of the joined forces.

Do you read my posts or you just skip them? Please tell me the truth in your reply.
What did I say? The dwarves were VASTLY outnumbered! And yes, the joint forces of the Norn, the Asura (their Golems), the Ebon Vanguard and the player's group could help out the dwarves. (Before you go through the Asura Gate in DD, wait until the Destroyers arrive, and attack the Stone Dwarves.) Game mechanically they lose, but if we take a look on the flow of the story, those Destroyers don't get into our back through the Gate. And Asura Gates can not be locked/blocked, so you can't argue with that one. It's a fact, that several Dwarves defeated insane amounts of Destroyers.
An about the strength of the dwarves allies:

Ebon Vanguard: Medium, and very few. Captain Langmar sent all the troops she could, but their whole group is quite small and she had to spare more men for the battles with the Charr.

Norn: Strong, but extremely few.

Asura: Their golems are quite durable and strong, but three isn't an army either.

Players' group: Well, I can't speak from this ally, it all depends on the player.

One more quotation from in-game:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sif Shadowhunter

Those stone Dwarves held their own like true heroes. You did well, too. That seems to be the last of them. Just when it was getting interesting...

Konig Des Todes · Aug 12, 2009, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Last time I checked, you didn't have doctor's degree about spirits and supernatural events/objects. How do you know for sure, that it's impossible? Jalis knows what he's doing, and if he says, that his god is within him and in his people, then I believe him.

And you don't have a degree either. Your point? Unlike you, I looked into spirits (and undead and constructs) in this game. When a spirit is put inside an object, they are called constructs. And constructs can move. As for what Jalis says, how do you know he knows what he's doing. Also saying one's god is within him and his people, couldn't that also mean the Great Dwarf's power is in him and his people?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Do you read my posts or you just skip them? Please tell me the truth in your reply.

I did, I'm sure Free Runner does. Question is, do you? In a lore sense, proved by the cinematic, they are overpowered. One on One, Destroyers would lose to Charr even, or Chromatic Drakes, or possibly elementals (and a group of Destroyers could get beaten by a group of Dryders, after all). The Destroyer's strength was through numbers, so of course they would be outnumbered. But due to that outnumbered-ness, without the allied support, they would not have done so well. The Ebon Vanguard sucked (few supposedly survived based on the Epilogue), the Norn all survived, the Golems survived. Point is, while the stone dwarves were probably the strongest allies aside from the golems, they would still be completely wiped out by the destroyers, and pretty much were. Not only were very few left (in accordance to the Movement of the World), but the cinematic also supports that the dwarves were overpowered.

Keep in mind, overpowered and outnumbered can go hand in hand at times. The Dwarves vs the Destroyers' case would be one of those times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

It's a fact, that several Dwarves defeated insane amounts of Destroyers.

No, it's not. Why? Because we killed all the Destroyers behind us (and those we didn't, would be stopped by the Norn, Asura, and Ebon Vanguard - what's left of the last at least).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

One more quotation from in-game:

That quote proves they were mostly killed... "They held..." past tense, meaning done. Now then, think, Norn's view of a hero? Those who die gloriously in battle (more or less).

Free Runner · Aug 12, 2009, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Do you read my posts or you just skip them? Please tell me the truth in your reply.

I read your posts, please do not pull that card, its very boring.

Quote:

I say that the Great Dwarf is stronger.

Just think of it: when every dwarf "became the Great Dwarf" they were still vastly outnumbered by the Destroyers. And they've still won the battle in Destruction's Depths. (It's lore-speaking, because I saw how easily they are killed by the Destroyers.)
If we would've sent them to the chamber of Primordus/the Great Destroyer, they would've killed the "Great Destroyer". (Lore-speaking)

You say the Great Dwarf was stronger than the Great Destroyer.

You then say they were outnumbered which is true for what we see, the Destroyers come in swarms and easily overrun the Dwarves.

Then you go on to say despite being outnumbered they won the battle in Destructions Depths. This is incorrect because it was the aid of the other races that allowed victory in that battle. They were merely a side in that fight, and without the other races they would of been destroyed.

Now like i said in my other post, Vekk actually states the Great Dwarfs power still didnt guarentee a win for them. Infact they decide to leave a couple of golems behind to help them. This goes in good with what you just said.

Quote:

(Before you go through the Asura Gate in DD, wait until the Destroyers arrive, and attack the Stone Dwarves.) Game mechanically they lose, but if we take a look on the flow of the story, those Destroyers don't get into our back through the Gate. And Asura Gates can not be locked/blocked, so you can't argue with that one. It's a fact, that several Dwarves defeated insane amounts of Destroyers.

Obviously those Destroyers did come through or else there would of been no need to leave behind the Golems. And those several Dwarves defeated Destroyers with help.

Lets just get to the point - if the Great Dwarf was much more stronger than the Great Destroyer then being simply outnumbered wouldnt of mattered. They are on the same level, both the power of the Great Dwarf and the power of the Great Destroyer. They were evenly matched and in the end it came down to which side had more fighters to spare.

Thalador Doomspeaker · Aug 12, 2009, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

And you don't have a degree either. Your point? Unlike you, I looked into spirits (and undead and constructs) in this game. When a spirit is put inside an object, they are called constructs. And constructs can move. As for what Jalis says, how do you know he knows what he's doing. Also saying one's god is within him and his people, couldn't that also mean the Great Dwarf's power is in him and his people?

Yes, you made great theories, and of course, I have no degree either. I saw your work about spirits and undead, it was great and I liked it very much, but aside from some in-game quotations/examples, nobody (except the lore team, probably) could prove, that you conception is true.
On your view about the power stored in the Hammer, I must say it's much more possible, then my speculation about "the whole Great Dwarf's spirit is within the weapon".
But how it is possible? We've only seen as Abaddon died(?), and all its power and knowledge was usurped by a mortal. But how can a godlike being "take", and "seal" its power in an object? And, is it possible, that along the power, the weapon contained a few memories from the life of the Great Dwarf?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

No, it's not. Why? Because we killed all the Destroyers behind us (and those we didn't, would be stopped by the Norn, Asura, and Ebon Vanguard - what's left of the last at least).

We didn't kill all of them. After we get to the Gate which transports us to the Central Transfer Chamber, don't go through it, just wait. After the dialogue ends, vast groups of Destroyers come from the direction, we've arrived before. I've counted only two, because I tried to fight them off, but we were badly outnumbered, and I wanted to finish off the rest of the mission.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

That quote proves they were mostly killed... "They held..." past tense, meaning done. Now then, think, Norn's view of a hero? Those who die gloriously in battle (more or less).

I fail to see, that under 'held' why do you think they are dead. They could've survived and moved to a another part of the area.

Steps_Descending · Aug 12, 2009, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Also saying one's god is within him and his people, couldn't that also mean the Great Dwarf's power is in him and his people?

Which means the hammer could be a simple rally point for the dwarf or simply bear an enchantment from the great dwarf that would give his powers to the dwarves.

Quote:

In a lore sense, proved by the cinematic, they are overpowered. One on One, Destroyers would lose to Charr even, or Chromatic Drakes, or possibly elementals (and a group of Destroyers could get beaten by a group of Dryders, after all). The Destroyer's strength was through numbers, so of course they would be outnumbered. But due to that outnumbered-ness, without the allied support, they would not have done so well. The Ebon Vanguard sucked (few supposedly survived based on the Epilogue), the Norn all survived, the Golems survived. Point is, while the stone dwarves were probably the strongest allies aside from the golems, they would still be completely wiped out by the destroyers, and pretty much were. Not only were very few left (in accordance to the Movement of the World), but the cinematic also supports that the dwarves were overpowered.

...

That quote proves they were mostly killed... "They held..." past tense, meaning done. Now then, think, Norn's view of a hero? Those who die gloriously in battle (more or less).

SO perhaps the prophecy, didn't expect the dwarves winning even with the GDwarf power. They would be wiped with or without help, but the blssding upgraded them from "harder hitting humans" to "Norn or weak golem power".
Seeing as they were more numerous and more willing tocharge head on. It'S not really surprising a lot of them die. They probably played the role of the expendable infantry (tought a particulary robust form).

Quote:

No, it's not. Why? Because we killed all the Destroyers behind us (and those we didn't, would be stopped by the Norn, Asura, and Ebon Vanguard - what's left of the last at least).

The way I understood the cinematics, they wanted to kill every single destroyers before going for the Great. While the others realized theywould loose and we went for the kill right away. SO they probably helped us a lot.

Comming back to the prophecy subject. We seem to know that the name was only known by alkar and the rubicon hierophant, the former didnt speak it, the later died before doing so.
And we know the central transfer chanber was close to Primordius (who was bleeding magic) and (I think) using primordius magic to power the gates. So what if they didn't acivate the prophecy by tapping into Primordius? Probably starting by awakening the destroyers
That wouldn't be the first time in fiction we saw the curious scientist screw up things.
And would explain why he awakened without his name spoken.

Because the prophecy said the Name was the key to unlocking his power, does that nescessary means that someone can't take the third option and pick the lock.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 12, 2009, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Yes, you made great theories, and of course, I have no degree either. I saw your work about spirits and undead, it was great and I liked it very much, but aside from some in-game quotations/examples, nobody (except the lore team, probably) could prove, that you conception is true.

I've done additional research since the last stuff put up on the forums. The additional research includes constructs, which is what the hammer would be if the Great Dwarf's spirit was in there. (It would also mean the Great Dwarf is dead, btw).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

On your view about the power stored in the Hammer, I must say it's much more possible, then my speculation about "the whole Great Dwarf's spirit is within the weapon".
But how it is possible? We've only seen as Abaddon died(?), and all its power and knowledge was usurped by a mortal. But how can a godlike being "take", and "seal" its power in an object? And, is it possible, that along the power, the weapon contained a few memories from the life of the Great Dwarf?

How is it possible? Well, I wouldn't say it was his power itself, but more of a spell, similar to what was on the Forbidden Scrolls that caused the Cataclysm, or the Cauldron of Cataclysm which caused the Searing. I'd say the hammer is on par with the type of object those two are.

As for memories, there's no known case *to me at least* of memories being put into a object (in GW mind you), but doesn't mean it isn't possible.

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Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

We didn't kill all of them. After we get to the Gate which transports us to the Central Transfer Chamber, don't go through it, just wait. After the dialogue ends, vast groups of Destroyers come from the direction, we've arrived before. I've counted only two, because I tried to fight them off, but we were badly outnumbered, and I wanted to finish off the rest of the mission.

Don't recall Destroyers coming at us after the stone dwarves' dialogue. Besides, I said "(and those we didn't..." - so I didn't mean ALL Destroyers, just all in our path.

(and those we didn'tI fail to see, that under 'held' why do you think they are dead. They could've survived and moved to a another part of the area.[/QUOTE]If Destroyers were still coming, why would they move to another part? Logic fails there.

Gmr Leon · Aug 12, 2009, 10:33 PM // 22:33

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Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

If we would've sent them to the chamber of Primordus/the Great Destroyer, they would've killed the "Great Destroyer". (Lore-speaking)

Technically speaking, if you had enough of them, they definitely would have with the stone making them impervious to the lava of the chamber.

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Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

The Great Dwarf was neither dead nor hibernating.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Tell me, do you see the Great Dwarf?

Tell me, do you ever see the Old Gods? The point is, in both cases, there's a large amount of doubt, with the only support of the Great Dwarf's status being:

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Originally Posted by High Priest Alkar

Maybe one day, when the Great Dwarf returns from his eternal slumber, the world will be ready to uncover what we have buried here today.

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Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

I would say that the Great Dwarf entered the spiritual realm, or became one with his hammer (becoming a spirit and entering his legendary weapon). So, when his people needed him for the last time(?), he could become one with every dwarf.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I don't think spirits work that way... Nothing supports a spirit being able to enter multiple beings. One being or object, yes, multiple, no.

The Great Dwarf is far different, though, he is a God. That changes everything, and while Thalador is still new here, we both know quite well that the the power of a God or Goddess has been speculated to be separate from the actual spirit of the God or Goddess. That is, with the spirit possibly containing the power, but not being intertwined. (Basically, think of pouring water into a glass, but the interior not getting wet.)

Besides that, he does provide an alternative (see above) that isn't incredibly unbelievable, as we've seen similar things done in the case of Abaddon. (Forbidden Scrolls. Possibly Apocrypha. Cauldron of Cataclysm.)* Albeit perhaps merely the Great Dwarf's power, instead of its spirit, but it's better than most new people, as it is close to some of our ideas, even without (apparent) research.

*-Note, wrote this before reading the later posts involved with this discussion.

However, there is a possibility that the soul can enter multiple objects..I'll explain later in this post.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Then there is the fact that when a spirit enters an object, they control the object. Think Shiro'Ken or Enchanted Armor/Weapons.

Except that, you know, there's no support for spirits in the Enchanted Armors or Weapons example.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Nothing supports the Great Dwarf actually being there. Only his/her/its power.

Unless it's possible for a God to dissolve itself, releasing its power without destroying the world through channeling it into the souls of an entire race, thus being there without being there, in a way. Bizarre? Yes, but impossible? I don't think so.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

When a spirit is put inside an object, they are called constructs. And constructs can move.

Not necessarily. See: Soul Batteries. Ritualist Urns. (Although, that's a tad unclear..Can't say I know with certainty how that process works precisely, whether it's the soul bound into the ashes or just the power of the individual.) Spear of Archemorus. (Seems to suggest the absorption of souls of dying enemies, or at least their energy, if the former, then it's a case that goes against souls in objects equaling constructs.)

Not only that, but we do see another scenario..Leaving it for a later point, though.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Point is, while the stone dwarves were probably the strongest allies aside from the golems, they would still be completely wiped out by the destroyers, and pretty much were. Not only were very few left (in accordance to the Movement of the World), but the cinematic also supports that the dwarves were overpowered.

Not completely. Note that even after the battle with the Great Destroyer, there were many Destroyers left wandering the Depths of Tyria, which the Deldrimor Dwarves hunted down and killed. Does this mean that their numbers were reduced solely due to the Destroyers? No, I do not think so. Rather, I think that we should all know by now that the Depths of Tyria are highly dangerous, and anything could happen down there, causing the death of them. Cave-ins, earthquakes, magma breaking through the wall, just a variety of hazards that could have helped reduce their numbers.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

How is it possible? Well, I wouldn't say it was his power itself, but more of a spell, similar to what was on the Forbidden Scrolls that caused the Cataclysm, or the Cauldron of Cataclysm which caused the Searing. I'd say the hammer is on par with the type of object those two are.

Well, technically, it would contain his power, if he was the one to create the spell and enchant the object with it. Similar scenario with the Forbidden Scrolls, assuming the words Khilbron read were just the activation code to a spell Abaddon had enchanted the object with.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

As for memories, there's no known case *to me at least* of memories being put into a object (in GW mind you), but doesn't mean it isn't possible.

(Been building up to this point, but then couldn't find the line I recalled seeing that spurred my thought. )

Anyway, this is just on the point of souls I kept saying I was putting off to a later point. It has been speculated that the Jade Armors encountered when fighting with the Mursaat contained souls of the Chosen, which were used to fight for their own cause, however, after the quest chain in the Eye of the North displaying the Aspect property of the Mursaat..This gives us another idea entirely. That is to say, the Jade Armors aren't exactly souls being contained, but rather aspects of the Mursaat placed within them to utilize them.

It may even be that the aspects of the Mursaat are divisions of the soul of the Mursaat in question. Which may indicate that they just scatter themselves into aspects prior to death, and reform occupying the Jade Armors, or whatever they are capable of occupying. Thus, not only would the memory be preserved within another object prior to reassembling, but the soul would be capable of occupying multiple hosts. Assuming, of course, that I am correct.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 12, 2009, 11:10 PM // 23:10

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Tell me, do you ever see the Old Gods? The point is, in both cases, there's a large amount of doubt, with the only support of the Great Dwarf's status being:

The fact we don't see the Old Gods was kind of where I was going: We cannot really tell, except through the fact of the lack of contact and actions from the Great Dwarf. Even the Old Gods have avatars which do some of their actions. Grenth and Dwayna duke it out yearly, afterall. Great Dwarf? Only actions which could be attributed is through an object, which doesn't need him there.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

The Great Dwarf is far different, though, he is a God. That changes everything, and while Thalador is still new here, we both know quite well that the the power of a God or Goddess has been speculated to be separate from the actual spirit of the God or Goddess. That is, with the spirit possibly containing the power, but not being intertwined. (Basically, think of pouring water into a glass, but the interior not getting wet.)

Which would mean that, if the Great Dwarf was a real god, and the hammer is filled with the Great Dwarf's power, that implies there was originally 7 gods.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Besides that, he does provide an alternative (see above) that isn't incredibly unbelievable, as we've seen similar things done in the case of Abaddon. (Forbidden Scrolls. Possibly Apocrypha. Cauldron of Cataclysm.)* Albeit perhaps merely the Great Dwarf's power, instead of its spirit, but it's better than most new people, as it is close to some of our ideas, even without (apparent) research.

*-Note, wrote this before reading the later posts involved with this discussion.

However, there is a possibility that the soul can enter multiple objects..I'll explain later in this post.

You do need to read all posts before commenting at times. :P

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Except that, you know, there's no support for spirits in the Enchanted Armors or Weapons example.

True, those may be golems (magically enchanted and not spiritually "possessed"), but Shiro'ken, Titans, and Juggernauts (all confirmed constructs), are all mobile. Now if some Shiro'ken (which are made out of flesh, bones, stone, and armor) can float, nothing argues against weapons from floating. And even so, all cases of constructs are spirits inside objects and all can move on their own. the hammer used by Jalis does not move on its own.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Unless it's possible for a God to dissolve itself, releasing its power without destroying the world through channeling it into the souls of an entire race, thus being there without being there, in a way. Bizarre? Yes, but impossible? I don't think so.

Never said impossible. That would actually be the best way to get rid of a god without replacement. Though, why one would do that, who knows.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Not necessarily. See: Soul Batteries.

Those are more like prisons, like Soul Stones, which uses the soul to power movement.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Ritualist Urns. (Although, that's a tad unclear..Can't say I know with certainty how that process works precisely, whether it's the soul bound into the ashes or just the power of the individual.) Spear of Archemorus. (Seems to suggest the absorption of souls of dying enemies, or at least their energy, if the former, then it's a case that goes against souls in objects equaling constructs.)

For the Urns, I don't think the spirit is trapped in the urns, but instead that the ritualists use relics to more easily call upon the spirit. Think of the newest wintersday quest in EN, where we call upon Gwen's mother, Sarah: our connection item was a loose connection (an object belonging to, not a relic of the person) so it was less direct to call the spirit *and the area was a weak barrier between Tyria and the Underworld, which didn't help*. For the Spear of Archemorus and the Urn of Saint Viktor, those are confusing cases as it seems like a bit of a Soul Reaping thing going on... (or Aggression magic)

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Well, technically, it would contain his power, if he was the one to create the spell and enchant the object with it. Similar scenario with the Forbidden Scrolls, assuming the words Khilbron read were just the activation code to a spell Abaddon had enchanted the object with.

... Technicalities, technicalities... One's spell being one's power, yes and no. I was meaning it wasn't the god-like power, but the power of the spell. Confusing, a bit, but how I see it, there would be two meanings to the term "power" in this case.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Anyway, this is just on the point of souls I kept saying I was putting off to a later point. It has been speculated that the Jade Armors encountered when fighting with the Mursaat contained souls of the Chosen, which were used to fight for their own cause, however, after the quest chain in the Eye of the North displaying the Aspect property of the Mursaat..This gives us another idea entirely. That is to say, the Jade Armors aren't exactly souls being contained, but rather aspects of the Mursaat placed within them to utilize them.

It may even be that the aspects of the Mursaat are divisions of the soul of the Mursaat in question. Which may indicate that they just scatter themselves into aspects prior to death, and reform occupying the Jade Armors, or whatever they are capable of occupying. Thus, not only would the memory be preserved within another object prior to reassembling, but the soul would be capable of occupying multiple hosts. Assuming, of course, that I am correct.

Well, occupying multiple hosts is possible, proven by Lazarus. However, he had no apparent influence over the Justiciar. That cannot be said for the Great Dwarf.

Gmr Leon · Aug 13, 2009, 02:57 AM // 02:57

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

The fact we don't see the Old Gods was kind of where I was going: We cannot really tell, except through the fact of the lack of contact and actions from the Great Dwarf. Even the Old Gods have avatars which do some of their actions. Grenth and Dwayna duke it out yearly, afterall. Great Dwarf? Only actions which could be attributed is through an object, which doesn't need him there.

Still not sure precisely how viable the festivities are. Certain bits, yes, but nonetheless. Although, I could easily say Grenth and Dwayna don't actually duke it out, but instead, just their minions do.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Which would mean that, if the Great Dwarf was a real god, and the hammer is filled with the Great Dwarf's power, that implies there was originally 7 gods.

There's nothing to suggest that the Great Dwarf isn't a real God. Nothing but your own ideas and his lack of interaction, which is explained by Alkar's quote, that he is in slumber. Why? Who knows. Same can be said for the human Gods' Exodus.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

True, but Shiro'ken, Titans, and Juggernauts (all confirmed constructs), are all mobile. Now if some Shiro'ken (which are made out of flesh, bones, stone, and armor) can float, nothing argues against weapons from floating. And even so, all cases of constructs are spirits inside objects and all can move on their own. the hammer used by Jalis does not move on its own.

I wasn't arguing for whether or not the hammer was a construct, but more along the lines of an object containing a soul is not always necessarily a construct. Nor was I arguing that a construct is not a spirit residing within an object. More or less, I was saying that just because it's animated and without flesh, does not make it a construct. Until we have something within lore to suggest a soul being involved with such a thing, we should not assume that it has one.

That's about as absurd as assuming the floating rocks are constructs containing souls due to being animated and without flesh.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Never said impossible. That would actually be the best way to get rid of a god without replacement. Though, why one would do that, who knows.

Never said you said it was impossible. Why one would do that? To remove yourself from the constant slaughter of the Godly pantheon, I'd say. From what we can tell, unless a God or Goddess finds a method of getting rid of its power aside from being killed, it must remain a God or Goddess until it is usurped. Albeit with Dhuum being the odd exception, although perhaps not entirely odd, as he was a God of Death.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Those are more like prisons, like Soul Stones, which uses the soul to power movement.

Er..What? Soul Batteries don't use the soul to power movement, and they aren't like prisons either. They literally sap the soul's energy, which is where they would be similar to the Soul Stones, perhaps, to maintain the seal on the Door of Komalie.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

... Technicalities, technicalities... One's spell being one's power, yes and no. I was meaning it wasn't the god-like power, but the power of the spell. Confusing, a bit, but how I see it, there would be two meanings to the term "power" in this case.

Technicalities are an absolute necessity to prove or disprove a point, as any technicality can easily undermine your ideas. As a matter of fact, you're doing the very same thing, except in this case you're splitting hairs in your favor based on your view of the meaning of power in regards to Gods.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Well, occupying multiple hosts is possible, proven by Lazarus. However, he had no apparent influence over the Justiciar. That cannot be said for the Great Dwarf.

Well, yeah, but like I said earlier, there's a major difference between a mortal being and a deity which can radically change things. Gods and Goddesses in Tyria seem to lack complete omniscience, but they do at least seem to have an overview of the world to some extent. In this case, they may have a higher consciousness, a higher sentience, which allows some influence to remain despite being divided into minuscule parts.

However, I do have to say that whenever Lazarus was trying to reclaim the aspect, he did have the adverse effect of death, so it does have some degree of influence. Not to mention whenever one tries to alter the aspects, Justiciar Naveed does feel something. But independent influence, indeed it has not.

Also, interesting tidbit I noticed that's rather irrelevant to the Dwarf topic, but:

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Originally Posted by Glayvin

So it ends, so it ends.... A curious thing happened here this day. That creature, the one you called an Unseen One, possesses such frightful power. It is removed from the pattern of the world, but for how long?

It is removed from the pattern of the world, did Glayvin incidentally find a way to severe a being's ability to use magic? Is this an indication that magic is inherently related to the soul of a being? Interesting, interesting, indeed.