Curse

Mordakai · Jul 31, 2009, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by liljonnypb

If you read tMotW carefully, it does say that after Palawa Joko diverts the Elon, there is some growth in the Northern Crystal Desert. If this is in fact GW2 concept art, I'm sticking with the Augury Rock theory.

But if it's Augury Rock, what's that huge disc in the middle?

Konig Des Todes · Jul 31, 2009, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

But if it's Augury Rock, what's that huge disc in the middle?

New design added by Joko.

Or more likely, something from the inside (i.e., under the initial rock) that only shows after the thing is opened up. Remember, we never get a good look at it after the mission and it opening.

Eliz Genevieve · Jul 31, 2009, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

But if it's Augury Rock, what's that huge disc in the middle?

Hum, we never saw how does the Augury Rock after we brake it open. So.

EDIT: Konig typed faster. bah.

Mordakai · Jul 31, 2009, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

New design added by Joko.

Or more likely, something from the inside (i.e., under the initial rock) that only shows after the thing is opened up. Remember, we never get a good look at it after the mission and it opening.

Good to see Joko has fashion sense...

But seriously, maybe it is Augury Rock, and maybe that disc thing has something to do with why two dragons are fighting over the Crystal Desert....

EDIT: Or at least attracting two dragons?

Eliz Genevieve · Jul 31, 2009, 06:09 PM // 18:09

The two dragons, as far as we know, aren't fighting over the Crystal Desert.
That's just a theory, but yeah, if that's so, they can be fighting over that. But what about Primordus, Drakkar and the DeepSea one?

Mordakai · Jul 31, 2009, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eliz Genevieve

The two dragons, as far as we know, aren't fighting over the Crystal Desert.
That's just a theory, but yeah, if that's so, they can be fighting over that. But what about Primordus, Drakkar and the DeepSea one?

Primordus is doing his own thing underground, and the Deep Sea dragon is probably not going to leave the water (maybe he can't?).

I hate Drakkar (or the Dragon of Ice and Snow), and here's why: I'm probably a little OCD, I like to have everything in nice little rows. And Drakkar doesn't fit in:

He's not mentioned in the beginning of MoTW.

Other than driving the Norn out, it's unclear what he's up to. Even the Deep Sea Dragon is making tentacled thingies pop out and harass people: what does Drakkar do?

Sure there is mention of Norn battling snow monsters, but there is NO link between them and Drakkar. It's all very annoying to me, and I can't help but think somehow Drakkar is different. (maybe it's just not fleshed out enough yet).

Eliz Genevieve · Jul 31, 2009, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Yeah, I know.

But I wasn't referring to that, what you're implying, is that they woke up for different reasons. And I don't agree with that.

I think they all woke up for some 'greater' evil that we don't know yet.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 31, 2009, 06:53 PM // 18:53

How do you know it's evil they woke up for?

Mordakai · Jul 31, 2009, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

How do you know it's evil they woke up for?

I know you're just kidding, but GmrLeon mentioned this too in the other thread: How do we know Grothmar is evil?

First, the dragons are described as "dangerous" and "terrifying." "Their goal seems to be to dominate, to control, and to destroy."

Now, it's true that there is room for disagreement (note the use of the word seems), but I don't view the Movement of the World as being subtle: If the Dragons were not a malevolent force, they would not be portrayed in such ways as "twisting", "corrupting" and generally doing bad things.

We're going to be fighting Dragons in Guild Wars 2, and I don't see Grothmar being "good" (although, I would welcome the plot twist).

The question remains, however, are the working together for a "greater evil", or are they all out seeking power for themselves?

Eliz Genevieve · Jul 31, 2009, 07:17 PM // 19:17

duuuuude :3
If I said greater good someone would threw me out with that.
If I say greater evil, you threw me out.

Oh well, shouldn't have said greater evil, greater 'something', as we don't know it yet.

---> But ' their only goal seems to be to dominate, to control and to destroy ', however

Edit:
Mordakai said it first, my fingers don't seem to move quickly enough as of today >.<

Konig Des Todes · Jul 31, 2009, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

I know you're just kidding, but GmrLeon mentioned this too in the other thread: How do we know Grothmar is evil?

First, the dragons are described as "dangerous" and "terrifying." "Their goal seems to be to dominate, to control, and to destroy."

Now, it's true that there is room for disagreement (note the use of the word seems), but I don't view the Movement of the World as being subtle: If the Dragons were not a malevolent force, they would not be portrayed in such ways as "twisting", "corrupting" and generally doing bad things.

We're going to be fighting Dragons in Guild Wars 2, and I don't see Grothmar being "good" (although, I would welcome the plot twist).

The question remains, however, are the working together for a "greater evil", or are they all out seeking power for themselves?

Actually, I wasn't kidding. Although dragons are usually referred to as extremely wise and some of the most powerful creatures in fantasy, that doesn't mean they always will. The Movement of the World is written from a human perspective, it would naturally give the view any threat to humans are evil, devilish, and should be exterminated. That's how Ascalonians view the Charr, but as this is from a more Krytan stand-point, and later in the future, we don't get "Charr are evil" - nor do we get "Undead are evil" which is seen in Prophecies and Nightfall. Instead we get "we were wrong before, but this time we're not, this threat is evil!"

I didn't mean the dragons are good, though it is possible. What I meant was that the dragons are not smart enough to be evil. In other words, they are acting on instinct, and they are no better than your basic animal which only kills to survive, whether for food or defense.

Operative 14 · Jul 31, 2009, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Though I think raising an army of undead sailors and soldiers, or fiery destroyers for that matter, bespeaks of a level of intelligence and organization that exceeds that of your average animal. Granted, it might just be an additional ability they have that their animalistic intellect makes use of. You do bring up a good point though, there's nothing that really says how intelligent they are.

And about being evil, I think that's sort of ambiguous. It seems like the MotW basically states that the dragons have expanded their territory and are content with what they have. It mentions that it is dangerous to travel to places, like Arah, but not that there is a struggle going on to keep the dragon's armies at bay. Basically they are just trying to protect their strongholds and keep trespassers out. If anything, it seems like the woke up, discovered that the world is populated with new races, and have made a space for themselves because they needed it. In places where the Tyrian races already find it difficult to live and were lightly settled, might I add.

Free Runner · Aug 01, 2009, 12:53 AM // 00:53

From the Movement of the World, all of these dragons seem to have very little to no regard for humans (or pretty much any race), making them "evil" from the humans view. But it could be that the dragons see humans as insects - do humans consider themselves evil for stepping on an insect? no because they see them as insignificant. This could be how the dragons work.

However the Undead Dragons description does make it sound a little more evil compared to the others - Primordus is creating minions in the depths and chasing Asurans out.....while the Undead Dragon is raising a lost kingdom inadvertibly killing hundreds if not thousands, and then going on to enslave the nearby survivors and sink and enslave anyone that goes near it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

I hate Drakkar (or the Dragon of Ice and Snow), and here's why: I'm probably a little OCD, I like to have everything in nice little rows. And Drakkar doesn't fit in:

He's not mentioned in the beginning of MoTW.

Other than driving the Norn out, it's unclear what he's up to. Even the Deep Sea Dragon is making tentacled thingies pop out and harass people: what does Drakkar do?

Sure there is mention of Norn battling snow monsters, but there is NO link between them and Drakkar. It's all very annoying to me, and I can't help but think somehow Drakkar is different. (maybe it's just not fleshed out enough yet).

What the Dragon of Ice and Snow is up to is as unclear as what Primordus is up to. And pretty much all the dragons. Its mention in the first section was clearly withheld to give more story to what the Norn were doing.

As for its link with the "monsters of ice" i think its implied that they are indeed the minions of the dragon. The Norn leaving the Far Shirverpeaks due to the dragon and Gunnars Hold falling to "Monsters of Ice" seems to go hand in hand. I doubt the Norn would fall against any normal group of creatures in the Far Shiverpeaks.

(Speaking of this: Why does the GW2 Wiki say the Monsters of Ice are Minions of Grothmar? how does one make that connection?

)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

What I meant was that the dragons are not smart enough to be evil.

Somehow i have a feeling they are smart enough. Its not been confirmed yet but i would at least expect them to be as intelligent as Glint was.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 01, 2009, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operative 14

Though I think raising an army of undead sailors and soldiers, or fiery destroyers for that matter, bespeaks of a level of intelligence and organization that exceeds that of your average animal. Granted, it might just be an additional ability they have that their animalistic intellect makes use of. You do bring up a good point though, there's nothing that really says how intelligent they are.

One does not have to have intelligence in order to raise something with intelligence. The Mists is a perfect example of this. I think it is a possibility that the Ancient Dragons are animalistic beings which act like the mists - creating new things out of the materials given. Just like the Mists, the dragons seem to create evil beings, but that doesn't make the dragons evil. It is possible some creations of the dragons will end up being good as well.

The only form of intelligence shown so far by the dragons would be "Grothmar's" moving and "Malchor's" setting patrols. But for "Grothmar," it could just be finding a suitable location to stay, and for "Malchor," it could be that its creations, not the dragon itself, set up the patrolling. Possibly done like how a person likes to keep an animal happy, if you provoke it, the animal will attack. It would also be like how a servant wants to keep its master happy. Combining the two, you get a good example of "Malchor" - his servants being the intelligent ones, want to keep "Malchor" happy, so that it doesn't kill them, as such they keep people out of its territory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operative 14

And about being evil, I think that's sort of ambiguous. It seems like the MotW basically states that the dragons have expanded their territory and are content with what they have. It mentions that it is dangerous to travel to places, like Arah, but not that there is a struggle going on to keep the dragon's armies at bay. Basically they are just trying to protect their strongholds and keep trespassers out. If anything, it seems like the woke up, discovered that the world is populated with new races, and have made a space for themselves because they needed it. In places where the Tyrian races already find it difficult to live and were lightly settled, might I add.

To add onto this, the Ancient Dragons act like any territorial race, such as the Tengu. They keep others out of their land. It seems that they just woke up, made their home - in one case moved to a new place for xyz region - and in the process kicked out any living creatures (Norn, Asura), then kept others out. Doesn't see evil to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

However the Undead Dragons description does make it sound a little more evil compared to the others - Primordus is creating minions in the depths and chasing Asurans out.....while the Undead Dragon is raising a lost kingdom inadvertibly killing hundreds if not thousands, and then going on to enslave the nearby survivors and sink and enslave anyone that goes near it.

I don't think the Undead Dragon views Orr as a lost kingdom, possibly more like "former homeland", but it never says the dragon rose Orr on purpose either. Likewise, it didn't cause tidal waves which sunk tons of land on purpose either. The only ones it killed on purpose were those who were right by it, but like I said above, it may just be because it viewed the Corsairs as invading it's territory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

As for its link with the "monsters of ice" i think its implied that they are indeed the minions of the dragon. The Norn leaving the Far Shirverpeaks due to the dragon and Gunnars Hold falling to "Monsters of Ice" seems to go hand in hand. I doubt the Norn would fall against any normal group of creatures in the Far Shiverpeaks.

(Speaking of this: Why does the GW2 Wiki say the Monsters of Ice are Minions of Grothmar? how does one make that connection?

)

The Norn especially wouldn't fall to the normal "monsters of Ice" as we see them around Gunnar's Hold in EN, and even at Wintersday, they are called nuisances, which would mean they are just troublesome, but not a threat (excluding those like White Out and the lady of the lake which have bounties). As for the wiki, clearly someone being mistaken (again).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

Somehow i have a feeling they are smart enough. Its not been confirmed yet but i would at least expect them to be as intelligent as Glint was.

Either is possible, I just want to open up new viewpoints since everyone seems to think that the Ancient Dragons are "evil" and "smart" - which may not be the case.

Shewmake · Aug 01, 2009, 04:50 AM // 04:50

The disc looks a lot like an upside-down Signet Shield (and therefore, *somewhat* like the Signet of Capture).

draxynnic · Aug 01, 2009, 08:58 AM // 08:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Either is possible, I just want to open up new viewpoints since everyone seems to think that the Ancient Dragons are "evil" and "smart" - which may not be the case.

While I concede the possibility, your language has been much more... I forget the exact word I wanted, but 'certain' will do as a filler for the time being. You haven't been saying the dragons may be of animalistic intelligence, you've been saying that they are of animalistic intelligence.

Truth is, we have no hard evidence either way - they may be intelligent, or they may be animalistic. That they're creating armies and so on implies intelligence, but they could simply be essentially acting as the queen of a hive instead - creating creatures which instinctively cater to their needs and defend them from attackers. All we have is the mention in MotW that the only motive of the dragons seems to be to destroy, and like all in-universe humanocentric sources, this is suspect.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 01, 2009, 09:32 AM // 09:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

While I concede the possibility, your language has been much more... I forget the exact word I wanted, but 'certain' will do as a filler for the time being. You haven't been saying the dragons may be of animalistic intelligence, you've been saying that they are of animalistic intelligence.

True that I never said "may" and have almost always said "are" - however, I also either say "I believe" or "it is possible that," and if I don't, I usually imply that it's not certain.

Free Runner · Aug 01, 2009, 12:08 PM // 12:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I don't think the Undead Dragon views Orr as a lost kingdom, possibly more like "former homeland", but it never says the dragon rose Orr on purpose either. Likewise, it didn't cause tidal waves which sunk tons of land on purpose either. The only ones it killed on purpose were those who were right by it, but like I said above, it may just be because it viewed the Corsairs as invading it's territory.

Oh no i'm not saying the Undead Dragon views Orr as a lost kingdom, i'm saying it was a lost kingdom. Also i didnt say it rose Orr on purpose, nor did i say the Tsunamis it caused were on purpose. I said that the way the Movement of the World explains these actions makes it sound more evil than other dragons.

Mister_Smiley · Aug 01, 2009, 02:03 PM // 14:03

I think is picture could be some form of the technology that the Asura where using, maybe a power source, maybe not, but i think the picture is more about the dragon shown, its called "stormlord" for a reason, maybe the dragon is so powerfully that he creates lighting or storms around him, thus the name "stormlord' Of course this all depends if the concept art is even related to guild wars2

Eliz Genevieve · Aug 01, 2009, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Artists design, then they give a title to whatever they created in the sketch.
I read it somewhere that Regina confirmed that the Stormlord was gw2 concept art by Kekai.. gotta link it.

Why Asura? Why not Mursaat? Or the Seers?