Curse

Mordakai · Jul 28, 2009, 04:51 AM // 04:51

Inspired by Eliz Genevieve, I am becoming convinced that the "desert dragon" is NOT from Grothmar as suspected, but rather is the Orrian Dragon we call Malchor.

First, the notable quotes (copied from Eliz's thread):

Originally Posted by Originally Posted by The Movement Of The World about Malchor:
(..) the dragon's undead army wages war even now along the northern Elonian border(..)

Originally Posted by Originally Posted by The Movement Of The World
(..) and even maintain a presene in Elona, although crossing the Crystal Desert due to Palawa's stranglehold over the southern reaches and the desert dragon's presence in the northern desert.

At first, it sounds like there are two dragons in the Crystal Desert / Northern Elona.

But take away all your preconceptions, and just read the similarities of these sentences: they could be both describing the same army!

"Desert dragon's presence" could mean not Malchor himself, but rather his presence in the form of his undead army.

Here's Eliz's thread link, but I wanted to post this here to try and keep this the "main" dragon thread.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10390490

(it should be noted that my opinion seems to differ from most

)

draxynnic · Jul 28, 2009, 05:02 AM // 05:02

I'd just posted in the thread in question, but to summarise the relevant part...

Another consideration that might be relevant here is... what is the state of Orr after being ravaged by cataclysm, sunk, and re-arisen? Could Orr be a desert in GW2, making the terms "desert dragon" and "orrian dragon" synonymous?

Mordakai · Jul 28, 2009, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

I'd just posted in the thread in question, but to summarise the relevant part...

Another consideration that might be relevant here is... what is the state of Orr after being ravaged by cataclysm, sunk, and re-arisen? Could Orr be a desert in GW2, making the terms "desert dragon" and "orrian dragon" synonymous?

from http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_...t_of_the_World

"The city of Arah, where once the True Gods walked, rose to the surface to become the creature's home. Its arrival heralded a time of cataclysm and change for the world. Though Arah lies in ruins, conquered by the dragon and its minions, those who venture onto Orrian soil say they have seen her spired towers, bedecked with rotted banners and guarded by twisted, draconian troops. "

Free Runner · Jul 28, 2009, 11:45 AM // 11:45

I'm in two minds about the desert dragon. For one thing i'm sticking with my earlier thought, that if the desert dragon is a seperate dragon why isnt it mentioned like the others? every one, including the Deep Sea Dragon who only gets one mention throughout the entire thing, is described as emerging from somewere or appearing somewere. However it never mentions a dragon rising in the desert.

But if it was an existing dragon wouldnt it say "a dragons presence in the northen desert"? why does it say "the desert dragons presence in the northen desert"? why does it sound like a dragon that is or should i say was once, native to the desert?.

It seems rather weird to give the Undead Dragon the name desert dragon. It already has "orrian dragon", "elder dragon" and "undead Dragon" so why would they suddenly name it desert dragon aswell?

Mordakai · Jul 28, 2009, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

I'm in two minds about the desert dragon. For one thing i'm sticking with my earlier thought, that if the desert dragon is a seperate dragon why isnt it mentioned like the others? every one, including the Deep Sea Dragon who only gets one mention throughout the entire thing, is described as emerging from somewere or appearing somewere. However it never mentions a dragon rising in the desert.

But if it was an existing dragon wouldnt it say "a dragons presence in the northen desert"? why does it say "the desert dragons presence in the northen desert"? why does it sound like a dragon that is or should i say was once, native to the desert?.

It seems rather weird to give the Undead Dragon the name desert dragon. It already has "orrian dragon", "elder dragon" and "undead Dragon" so why would they suddenly name it desert dragon aswell?

Yeah, I agree, the whole thing is strange. The name "desert dragon" could be a mistake: we don't know how quickly this was written.

As you say, I doubt the "desert dragon" is new, or else it should have been listed with the others.

So, if we assume it's one of the four:

It can't be Primordus, Primordus is underground, and is mentioned by name.

It probably isn't the deep sea dragon, as that would seem contradictory.

That leaves Malchor and Grothmar.

1. We know Malchor has a presence in Northern Elona (Northern Desert?) already.

2. If both Grothmar and Malchor have a presence in Elona, why is it not mentioned? From MotW (under Order of Whispers subsection): "...crossing the Crystal desert is currently impossible due to Palawa's stranglehood over the southern reaches and the desert dragons presence in the northen desert." If there were two dragons with influence, wouldn't that be mentioned?

On the other hand:

We know Grothmar flies south over the Charr territory of Ascalon. Does he stop in the mountains? As Eliz Genevieve mentions in her other thread, why doesn't Grothmar just stay in the northern mountains or Charr territory where there would be less conflict?

It's also interesting to note that the other dragons appear to stay near to where they arose: Malchor's seat of power is Orr; the dragon of ice and snow is staying north, driving the Norn south (assuming this is the Drakkar); and the deep sea dragon is (by lack of other info) still underwater.

So, is Grothmar the desert dragon or is Malchor?

EDIT: Just realized I left out the dragon of ice and snow. Did we close one mystery, just to open another?

Free Runner · Jul 28, 2009, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Primordus, the Dragon of Ice and Snow and the Deep Sea Dragon are all without a doubt in their own areas, like you said. So it does come down to it ether being the Grothmar Dragon or the Undead Dragon. I find it strange how it never seems to mention what became of the Grothmar dragon, instead only saying it flew over Ascalon and caused a corruption.

The Grothmar dragon is....in a way the only free dragon. If we look at it, Primordus seems at home in the Depths, the Dragon of Ice and Snow is obviously a Shiverpeak dweller, the Deep Sea Dragon is well i can only assume restricted (assuming it is a dragon meant for the sea and not one that just went to sleep there). The Undead Dragon appears to be up to something in Arah (same thing can be said for Primordus in the depths and the Dragon of Ice and Snow in the Far Shiverpeaks).

So perhaps the reason the dragon flew away was due to it not being bound to that area. Or perhaps it just has plans aswell, plans that did not involve the Charr Homelands.

EDIT: I've just been looking at the Movement of the World again and i noticed something. The Undead Dragon cannot be the desert dragon. The Charr are fighting against the forces of Primordus and the Desert Dragon in Ascalon.

Why would the undead dragons forces be that far from Orr? and since Grothmar flew over Ascalon where would he of disappeared to? the Charr are fighting only Primordus and this desert dragon forces....hard to believe he just vanished. So with that i believe more than ever that the desert dragon is Grothmar.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 28, 2009, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

From MotW (under Order of Whispers subsection): "...crossing the Crystal desert is currently impossible due to Palawa's stranglehood over the southern reaches and the desert dragons presence in the northen desert." If there were two dragons with influence, wouldn't that be mentioned?

As Malchor controls the western Crystal Desert, it would be very easy to avoid it's forces to get between Elona and Tyria. So that may be an explanation for that small spot. But not overall.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

I've just been looking at the Movement of the World again and i noticed something. The Undead Dragon cannot be the desert dragon. The Charr are fighting against the forces of Primordus and the Desert Dragon in Ascalon.

I have 100% no memory of this what-so-ever for mention of the Charr fighting any dragons' forces. I'll have to look over it again I guess. I assume in the Charr section?

Edit: Found it:

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Movement of the World;Charr

The four primary legions of the Charr, the Ash Legion, Blood Legion, Gold Legion, and Iron Legion, each control city-strongholds, spread out across the eastern lands. Charr warbands strike out from these safe havens to defend their territories, battling the shades of Ascalonian warriors, the twisted servants of the desert dragon, and the horrifying beasts that come up from beneath the ground throughout Ascalon and the Shiverpeaks.

Wonder why I don't recall this line... But that seems to settle it. As "Grothmar" flew over Ascalon and corrupted the land and creatures under it. This would also disprove Leon's little statement on how Grothmar has no servants.

Free Runner · Jul 28, 2009, 04:13 PM // 16:13

I knew i had read it somewere that the Charr were fighting twisted creatures, so i looked through Ecology and then back at the Movement of the World and saw this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Movement of the World

Charr warbands strike out from these safe havens to defend their territories, battling the shades of Ascalonian warriors, the twisted servants of the desert dragon, and the horrifying beasts that come up from beneath the ground throughout Ascalon and the Shiverpeaks.

While it doesnt say Primordus i'm assuming that the horrifying beasts mentioned are his "new destroyers" due to them not only coming from the ground, but also appearing in the Shiverpeaks. That and also due to his "sleeping area" being very near Ascalon.

EDIT: Ah you found it. I dont know why i cant remember reading that part ether, i thought "desert dragon" was only mentioned once throughout the entire thing. Its probably because i read Ecology rather than the Charr part thinking they held the same info.

Gmr Leon · Jul 28, 2009, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

This would also disprove Leon's little statement on how Grothmar has no servants.

Still not going to buy that their its servants until we see them being controlled by one of its stronger creatures, or controlled by itself.

Mordakai · Jul 28, 2009, 05:28 PM // 17:28

"Originally Posted by Movement of the World
Charr warbands strike out from these safe havens to defend their territories, battling the shades of Ascalonian warriors, the twisted servants of the desert dragon, and the horrifying beasts that come up from beneath the ground throughout Ascalon and the Shiverpeaks."

Man, how did I miss that???

Well, you guys are right, that settles it: Grothmar is the desert dragon, and Konig's maps of influence is more or less on the right track.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Still not going to buy that their its servants until we see them being controlled by one of its stronger creatures, or controlled by itself.

Not sure what you're looking for, "the twisted servants of the desert dragon" is not clear enough?

Now, it's not absolute proof that "any creatures caught within the wind of its breath twisted and changed" are automatically Grothmar's servants, but surely it's circumstantial evidence that the breath "twisted" creatures and they become "twisted servants".

So, will we be fighting "twisted" Grawl in GW2?

Free Runner · Jul 28, 2009, 06:28 PM // 18:28

I wonder if its intentional though. Primordus, the Dragon of Ice and Snow and the Undead Dragon are all intentionally creating minions. But the Grothmar dragon could be creating them unintentionally. We dont know if they are being commanded to attack the Charr or if they are running riot in Ascalon attacking anything that comes near them.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 28, 2009, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Still not going to buy that their its servants until we see them being controlled by one of its stronger creatures, or controlled by itself.

By that, then we can say that none of the Ancient Dragons have servants or minions as we don't see it. Joking aside, the Movement explicitaly states "servants of the desert dragon" - thus they are servants of the desert dragon. As Mordakai said, this doesn't mean all of the things twisted under Grothmar's flight will be its servants, but some of its servants will be in Ascalon (at least - most likely in Northern Crystal Desert as well).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

I wonder if its intentional though. Primordus, the Dragon of Ice and Snow and the Undead Dragon are all intentionally creating minions. But the Grothmar dragon could be creating them unintentionally. We dont know if they are being commanded to attack the Charr or if they are running riot in Ascalon attacking anything that comes near them.

Wouldn't Svannir also be considered unintentional? I would say there are two "servants of the desert dragon:"

Those created unintentional via "Grothmar's" flight.
Those created intentional after landing.

. Those created intentionally would extend to reside in southern Ascalon, the Blazeridge, and northern Crystal Desert. Those created unintentionally would be like Svannir - running a muck killing everything they can in a possibly straight line from it's hibernation spot to it's landing point.

Free Runner · Jul 28, 2009, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Wouldn't Svannir also be considered unintentional?

I was actually talking about those twisted while they are awake. Though i guess we dont know if the Dragon of Ice and Snow is creating intentional minions ether, though i have a strong feeling it is.

What i meant by unintentional is, twisting creatures with no purpose in mind. Like how the Undead Dragon obviously had a purpose for his victims, the Grothmar dragon could of twisted them while passing by and then simply left them.

Though for all we know, when twisted the creatures could immediatly follow the orders of the dragon that did it. Like perhaps losing their sanity and being forced to follow the orders of their master.

Mordakai · Jul 28, 2009, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

Though for all we know, when twisted the creatures could immediatly follow the orders of the dragon that did it. Like perhaps losing their sanity and being forced to follow the orders of their master.

That's what I am thinking. It seems all Dragons have the ability to twist and change their surroundings and/or other creatures.

It's probable they all have the ability to create servants. It would certainly work as a game mechanic: fight through hordes of creatures, then face the dragon itself (if we actually get to fight the dragon).

Hmmm, now we can swim, I wonder if we'll be battling the deep sea dragon underwater?

Gmr Leon · Jul 28, 2009, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

By that, then we can say that none of the Ancient Dragons have servants or minions as we don't see it. Joking aside, the Movement explicitaly states "servants of the desert dragon" - thus they are servants of the desert dragon. As Mordakai said, this doesn't mean all of the things twisted under Grothmar's flight will be its servants, but some of its servants will be in Ascalon (at least - most likely in Northern Crystal Desert as well).

Actually, by my logic, we can say Primordus does, as we've seen them, and know that they are in fact commanded by it. However, by the details provided about Malchor, that show its intervention and commanding of minions, we can likewise say that it does have minions. As it is displayed very clearly:

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Movement of the World, Orr.

Risen from the ocean by the will of a powerful undead dragon, Orr no longer stands under human control. The beings roaming those lands are twisted, perverted remnants of Orr's once-magnificent culture. Drowned by magic and then raised into service by the will of a monster so terrible there are only whispers of its nature, they now serve a dragon more horrible and more powerful than any other being in Tyria.

The elder dragon of Orr rules this re-emerged continent with an indomitable will, claiming the peninsula for its own. The city of Arah, where once the True Gods walked, rose to the surface to become the creature's home. Its arrival heralded a time of cataclysm and change for the world. Though Arah lies in ruins, conquered by the dragon and its minions, those who venture onto Orrian soil say they have seen her spired towers, bedecked with rotted banners and guarded by twisted, draconian troops.

Many of the corsairs who inhabited the island chain before the peninsula rose again were subsumed by the dragon's power, twisted by its breath, and enslaved to its will. Ships with black sails, built from seized corsair vessels, sail along the Strait of Malchor, west of Orr. These vessels surround the Fire Islands, manned by undead minions of the dragon that fear neither fire nor sea.

This undead armada has cut off all human contact with Cantha, and the dragon’s undead army wages war even now along the northern Elonian border, preventing all in Tyria from departing for other lands...for now.

In the case of Grothmar and Drakkar, however, there is no clear indication of their ordering any minions around.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Movement of the World, beginning.

Gunnar's Hold fell to monsters of ice, and the Norn were driven southward into the empty territory that had once been held by the Dwarves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Movement of the World, Norn.

An elder dragon of ice and snow arose in the farthest northern peaks, driving even the most stalwart hunters south into Dwarven lands.

The first quote simply states monsters of ice, it is only due to the similar descriptions that we assume the monsters are created by Drakkar, which would seem to be supported by the nature of Primordus and Malchor. However, it could simply be that its magic merely affected its surroundings, creating the monsters of ice in a similar manner as to how Grothmar corrupted the creatures beneath it during flight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Movement of the World, Dragons.

Only a few years ago, yet another dragon erupted from the northern mountains and flew south over the Charr territory of Ascalon. The land directly below the path of the dragon’s flight was corrupted, becoming a crater of horror. The ground blackened from the dragon's presence and any creatures caught within the wind of its breath twisted and changed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Movement of the World, Order of Whispers.

They work with the Krytans and Ascalonians, and even maintain a presence in Elona, although crossing the Crystal Desert is currently impossible due to Palawa's stranglehold over the southern reaches and the desert dragon's presence in the northern desert.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Movement of the World, Charr.

Charr warbands strike out from these safe havens to defend their territories, battling the shades of Ascalonian warriors, the twisted servants of the desert dragon, and the horrifying beasts that come up from beneath the ground throughout Ascalon and the Shiverpeaks.

It says any creatures caught within the wind of its breath are twisted and changed, this could easily be taken to mean that it was completely unintentional on Grothmar's part. It's like an airborne disease, you can't help that you're passing it along to others when you breathe, cough, or sneeze. At best, you can only cover your mouth to try and save others the miserable feelings of your illness. Even the land beneath it and in its presence is corrupted, becoming blackened. I mean, really, Grothmar just sounds like a miserable dragon that can't help its effects on the world, if you ask me.

Some have asked, and I'm sure we both have asked ourselves and one another this, why did Grothmar leave its location of awakening? While we may never have an absolute, definitive explanation, perhaps it's aware of its effects on the world, and rather than just making the entire region a corrupted wasteland, it went to a place that's already a wasteland. The Crystal Desert. Very little life to be twisted and changed. The ground is already infertile, so its corruption won't exactly have much of an effect.

I mean, really, the entire area is utterly lacking in strategic value for Grothmar, so perhaps this is a viable explanation?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Wouldn't Svannir also be considered unintentional? I would say there are two "servants of the desert dragon:"

Those created unintentional via "Grothmar's" flight.
Those created intentional after landing.

. Those created intentionally would extend to reside in southern Ascalon, the Blazeridge, and northern Crystal Desert. Those created unintentionally would be like Svannir - running a muck killing everything they can in a possibly straight line from it's hibernation spot to it's landing point.

In the context of what you're saying, Svannir would count as unintentionally corrupted. Despite tapping into the power himself, which would make it intentional on his part, but not the dragon's.

Also, I've already argued the Grothmar point above, so I won't repeat myself here.

Mordakai · Jul 28, 2009, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

It says any creatures caught within the wind of its breath are twisted and changed, this could easily be taken to mean that it was completely unintentional on Grothmar's part. It's like an airborne disease, you can't help that you're passing it along to others when you breathe, cough, or sneeze. At best, you can only cover your mouth to try and save others the miserable feelings of your illness. Even the land beneath it and in its presence is corrupted, becoming blackened. I mean, really, Grothmar just sounds like a miserable dragon that can't help its effects on the world, if you ask me.

Some have asked, and I'm sure we both have asked ourselves and one another this, why did Grothmar leave its location of awakening? While we may never have an absolute, definitive explanation, perhaps it's aware of its effects on the world, and rather than just making the entire region a corrupted wasteland, it went to a place that's already a wasteland. The Crystal Desert. Very little life to be twisted and changed. The ground is already infertile, so its corruption won't exactly have much of an effect.

Hmmm, Grothmar a good Dragon? Well, he's killing Charr (perhaps inadvertently) so he's good from a Human point of view, anyway.

(Except that he's blocking passage through the Northern Crystal Desert).

Perhaps there's some power in the Crystal Desert that's attracting the Dragons? Both Malchor and Grothmar go or send servants there.

And of course Glint (lesser dragon) and the Forgotten are based in the Crystal Desert.

But it does seem that all Dragons naturally corrupt and change their surrounding: even the Deep Sea Dragon "breathed, twisting the waters themselves into tentacled horrors that rose from every lake and river in the land." Yikes.

On a side note, "twisted" seems to be the word of choice when describing the effects of Dragon breath.

Free Runner, do you feel comfortable enough about the Grothmar dragon being the desert dragon that you should edit the original post to reflect that?

Free Runner · Jul 28, 2009, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Free Runner, do you feel comfortable enough about the Grothmar dragon being the desert dragon that you should edit the original post to reflect that?

I've edited my main post with a section explaining how the desert dragon is most likely Grothmar. I'll remove the Desert Dragon section when Anet finally confirm it to be the same dragon. Better safe than sorry.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 29, 2009, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Actually, by my logic, we can say Primordus does, as we've seen them, and know that they are in fact commanded by it. However, by the details provided about Malchor, that show its intervention and commanding of minions, we can likewise say that it does have minions. As it is displayed very clearly:

-snip-

I'll repeat: Joking aside. I didn't mean it literally, just that it never explicitly states that they are minions (aside from Malchor). Destroyers were servants of the Great Destroyer - but if you think about it, as they were mindless they were more of extensions of the Great Destroyer itself. Like little fingers and toes of mass destruction (they tickled Tyria! That's how the earthquakes started! Tyria is a living being! /endjoking).

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I mean, really, the entire area is utterly lacking in strategic value for Grothmar, so perhaps this is a viable explanation?

Viable but uncertain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Also, I've already argued the Grothmar point above, so I won't repeat myself here.

Which is stated to have servants.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Perhaps there's some power in the Crystal Desert that's attracting the Dragons? Both Malchor and Grothmar go or send servants there.

And of course Glint (lesser dragon) and the Forgotten are based in the Crystal Desert.

Anet said that the statue of glint in that one area (can't recall the name) will have a use in the future. Clearly, at this point, not going to be GW1, so most likely will be in GW2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

On a side note, "twisted" seems to be the word of choice when describing the effects of Dragon breath.

Twisted, changed, perverted, corrupted. Various words could be used. Corrupted was seemingly used along Abaddon and Dhuum, so twisted would probably be the best use to depict an unnatural and dark change without using a word which has a different meaning which is commonly thought of and thus can lead to issues (perverted).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

I've edited my main post with a section explaining how the desert dragon is most likely Grothmar. I'll remove the Desert Dragon section when Anet finally confirm it to be the same dragon. Better safe than sorry.

If you think about it, how could the desert dragon not be the one from the Northern Mountains? There can't really be any other explanation. Same as Grothmar, possibly wrong (as for all we know, that's another dragon which is why the Northern Mountains dragon flew south), but desert dragon is the northern mountains dragon hands down. If not - then wtf happened to that other dragon to just disappear.

Cursed One · Jul 29, 2009, 01:40 AM // 01:40

I was wondering, how big are these dragongs any way,
Grothmar is obviosly pretty huge, but Primordus does not see that big in comparrison.

Also what caused the Dragons to awaken, was it the Ausrans who built too close to Primordus, semi-waking him and causing some sort of chain-reaction with the other dragons or are thier awakening completely independant from eachother.

Free Runner · Jul 29, 2009, 01:54 AM // 01:54

They seem to have a set time for waking up. Or at least Primordus did. One of the things that interests me is the whole Primordus waking up first thing. Primordus actually had plans from the looks of things to wake up early. But when that goes wrong he wakes up a hundred or so years later, apparantly without the need of the Great Destroyer. And then the dragons start waking up one by one with Grothmar being the last (or at least the movement of the world implies that)

So the thing i'm wondering (and i asked this before) do the dragons have a connection with Primordus waking up? did he wake them up or were they all supposed to wake up around the same time, one by one? and if thats the case, why did Primordus feel the need to set out a way to wake up long before the others?

This comes down to the "Are they hostile to one another" thing. Was Primordus trying to get a headstart at making his army before the others did?