Curse

Konig Des Todes · Nov 24, 2009, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Mursaat Tokens drop from not just the Mursaat themselves, but Jade Armor/Bows and Ether Seals as too. Before, we didn't know anything on these, but now we got some lore on it:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicholas the Traveler

Sometimes I question whether my curiosity will be my undoing. Take Mursaat Tokens, for example. I think they're utterly fascinating, like they have an untapped inner power, a power you can sense, waiting to detonate and ruin all life.

The tokens have immense power - very powerful energy.

What is a kind of energy the Mursaat are, at least on a minor scale, able to control? Lazarus shows us the answer: Their own being. He is able to split his being - whether it is body and soul, or just his soul, is unknown. Souls are also known to be a very powerful source.

After looking in on this and the Mursaat, I have created a new hypothesis.

As we all know, Mursaat are humanoid in shape - but an interesting thing to think about is the mechanical-like sounds that they make - are these sounds made just because of the masks? I am not sure, but it doesn't sound like a normal kind of voice even including the masks.

These things presented thus far, have given me a thought: What if the Mursaat we see are not their actual bodies? That is, maybe the reason why all things related to the Mursaat drop the same thing - Mursaat Tokens - is because the Mursaat Tokens are what causes the animation of normally inanimate objects.

That is, the Mursaat Tokens house souls - just as the soul batteries - and these souls power the Jade Armos, the Ether Seals, and the bodies we have conceived to be Mursaat.

But then, what are the Mursaat? What are the bodies we see?

On the bodies, I think they are the bodies of the chosen - re-inhabited by the true Mursaat, and fashioned into a more unanimous bodies. But then the issue comes up with the feet - the biggest difference between humans and Mursaat (aside from the wing-like appendixes and changed color of the skin). This could be part of their "fashioning" - slightly changing the body - perhaps to make them more similar to their old bodies.

If this is correct, the mechanical sounds can then be also due to the "fashioning" - perhaps they include mechanical portions into the bodies as well.

Just some discombobulated thoughts.

paddymew · Nov 24, 2009, 02:08 PM // 14:08

It would seem reasonable, especially since the Mursaat have their unseen city hidden somewhere - which could actually consist of large factories of some sort.

I'm from now on looking forward to see if there are any Mursaat in GW2

damkel · Nov 24, 2009, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Probably the most interesting thing in that quote is the word 'ruin'.

Usually when talking about some evil creature/being, the wise old man will say 'destroy all life'. In this case, it's ruin. This could mean corruption? Taint? Ruin does not necessarily imply the end of life.

Anyone else thinking along those lines?

Konig Des Todes · Nov 24, 2009, 02:51 PM // 14:51

I was indeed thinking along the lines, Damkel. It is possible that, if I am correct, the Tokens can possess things they come in contact with. Inanimate objects would, of course, be easier to possess than living beings - but as Lazarus shows, at least becoming parasitic to living beings is possible. Though with Lazarus there are three things to note: He did not possess the people - They took him willingly - And he split himself. It may be that if the host is unwilling the Mursaat cannot possess the host (at least immediately) - and likewise, if the Mursaat is in one piece when the possession takes place, the chances of controlling a living host is more likely.

This may be how Lazarus began putting himself back together - one piece that his split up was larger than others, and thus was able to have more influence over the host. Through this ability, he was able to meet up with the other hosts and slowly put more of himself into a single host.

Hells Fury · Nov 24, 2009, 03:44 PM // 15:44

The Mursaat or the "Unseen Ones" are a group of powerful spell casters that live in Tyria.

Keep it simple.(at least i wish so). They are race like any other. With cool spells, voice,looks and abilities.
I would be greatly disapointed if they were energy/ghosts/other in mechanical bodies.

...but Yakkington adores them. Whenever he sees Mursaat Tokens, his eyes light up like little dancing candles, and I swear he whimpers, just loud enough for me to think I heard it but not be sure...

I don't get this... He likes it? Shouldn't he be afraid of those...

Konig Des Todes · Nov 24, 2009, 06:04 PM // 18:04

I wouldn't say their bodies are mechanical - just that there is something that makes their voice mechanical (or partially, since something I overlooked but was mentioned on GWO is that Saul heard them with melodic voices).

And danger is an addictive drug.

Breakfast Mc Rit · Nov 24, 2009, 08:07 PM // 20:07

He says, "...like they have an untapped power..."

I would liken that to showing a glowstick to a primitive man in our time and having him believe it held magical properties. The fact that Jade constructs and Ether Seals drop them could very likely be a game mechanic.

If the Mursaat were to be using mechanical technology in their host bodies, why don't we see more of this technology anywhere else? Instead we see more of magical constructs. And why would they change the appearance of the feet when they don't use them?

It's an interesting hypothesis, though, and quite fun if one was to allow himself to be whisked away by it.

majikmajikmajik · Nov 24, 2009, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Where is the devs so they can add content now!!! i mean gw2.

Konig Des Todes · Nov 24, 2009, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Breakfast Mc Rit

The fact that Jade constructs and Ether Seals drop them could very likely be a game mechanic.

Though Siege Ice Golems do not drop Stone Summit Badges.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Breakfast Mc Rit

If the Mursaat were to be using mechanical technology in their host bodies, why don't we see more of this technology anywhere else? Instead we see more of magical constructs. And why would they change the appearance of the feet when they don't use them?

Hmmm, would you say Asuran Golems are mechanical, or magical? In reality, they are both. So why couldn't the Mursaat's technology? As for changing appearances - perhaps to make the bodies more similar to their original bodies. If they are souls, they were once living beings (at least, there is no spirit we know of which was not once living), so they would have had a body in the past. These past bodies might have had 3 toes, and being rather egotistical that they seem to be, it is possible that they alter the body to make them like their old bodies. Even if they do not use the part of the body being modified.

Breakfast Mc Rit · Nov 24, 2009, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Though Siege Ice Golems do not drop Stone Summit Badges.

Frogmen drop Heket legs, though thought to be unrelated. Charr Hunter Beasts don't drop Charr Carvings. What an enemy drops is far too inconsistent to truly be relevant in lore standards. ;D

Quote:

Hmmm, would you say Asuran Golems are mechanical, or magical? In reality, they are both. So why couldn't the Mursaat's technology? As for changing appearances - perhaps to make the bodies more similar to their original bodies. If they are souls, they were once living beings (at least, there is no spirit we know of which was not once living), so they would have had a body in the past. These past bodies might have had 3 toes, and being rather egotistical that they seem to be, it is possible that they alter the body to make them like their old bodies. Even if they do not use the part of the body being modified.

I know you know that the difference between the Asuran Golems and the Mursaat Jade are quite obvious, but your question only highlights what I was trying to get at. The Asuran Golems are both, and both heavily manifest themselves visually in Asuran culture.

As it stands right now, we are supposed to consider that because the Mursaat--by your opinion--sound mechanical, that the Jade constructs can be both magical and mechanical when there is really nothing that currently supports such an idea in their culture, visually or otherwise?

draxynnic · Nov 25, 2009, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Though Siege Ice Golems do not drop Stone Summit Badges.

They used to. I believe it got changed so that it was easier to collect Icy Lodestones for Chef Tian and the Canthan New Year.

On the main topic: I note that Nicholas doesn't actually give a tangible reason why he thinks they have this power, apart from the vague comment about the power being one that can be sensed (and even that's a little suspect, since it comes after the word "like" being used in the sentence). So it doesn't seem to be any form of "hard" evidence, just his supposition. Still, this does lead at least some credence to the theory that they may be a power supply of some form.

Konig Des Todes · Nov 25, 2009, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Breakfast Mc Rit

the difference between the Asuran Golems and the Mursaat Jade are quite obvious

Though this difference seems to be highly less apparent in GW2 (though we only see one golem, like the jade armors, that golem was walking and moving via magical connections, not through joints and sockets we see in GW1 golems).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Breakfast Mc Rit

As it stands right now, we are supposed to consider that because the Mursaat--by your opinion--sound mechanical, that the Jade constructs can be both magical and mechanical when there is really nothing that currently supports such an idea in their culture, visually or otherwise?

Actually, you misunderstood me. I said the Mursaat's technology - i.e., other things the Mursaat made, not specifically the Jade Armors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

I note that Nicholas doesn't actually give a tangible reason why he thinks they have this power, apart from the vague comment about the power being one that can be sensed (and even that's a little suspect, since it comes after the word "like" being used in the sentence). So it doesn't seem to be any form of "hard" evidence, just his supposition. Still, this does lead at least some credence to the theory that they may be a power supply of some form.

I was only posting a hypothesis based on if Nicholas is correct.

Breakfast Mc Rit · Nov 25, 2009, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Though this difference seems to be highly less apparent in GW2 (though we only see one golem, like the jade armors, that golem was walking and moving via magical connections, not through joints and sockets we see in GW1 golems).

Highly less apparent? I think not. The theme is still very much there in Asuran culture and the overall appearance of the golems, joints and sockets notwithstanding.

On the other hand, we have the Jade constructs that appear as giant, almost formless chunks of rock possessed by magic that may have been created by a race highly potent with magic.

Two very distinct themes.

Quote:

Actually, you misunderstood me. I said the Mursaat's technology - i.e., other things the Mursaat made, not specifically the Jade Armors.

It's always we that misunderstand you. I like how you do that. I didn't get into this other technology because I either can't remember it or it doesn't yet exist. Can I have an example of this other technology and how it may carry both magical and mechanical qualities?

Would I like to consider this hypothesis? Yes, it would excite and reignite my curiosity in the Mursaat. I can't, however, because so far I've only read some clever ideas with no real backing. Except, of course, the quote you gave from an NPC who "senses" power in the tokens.

Is that the kind of sense I get of heat from a flame? Or the sense of awe I get from a good book or piece of music? I don't know, but it's out there now.

Konig Des Todes · Nov 25, 2009, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Breakfast Mc Rit

Highly less apparent? I think not. The theme is still very much there in Asuran culture and the overall appearance of the golems, joints and sockets notwithstanding.

On the other hand, we have the Jade constructs that appear as giant, almost formless chunks of rock possessed by magic that may have been created by a race highly potent with magic.

Two very distinct themes.

Uhm... of the golem we saw from the in-game footage of GW2 from the trailer (not on my computer so cannot get a picture), there are no joints. The fingers, the arms, the legs are all floating apart from the main body.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Breakfast Mc Rit

It's always we that misunderstand you. I like how you do that.

I type things out in such a way I am apparently easily misunderstood. :/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Breakfast Mc Rit

I didn't get into this other technology because I either can't remember it or it doesn't yet exist. Can I have an example of this other technology and how it may carry both magical and mechanical qualities?

I'm talking about a potential technology we do not see. We hardly see their entire culture - just their military at best. Their real homes - where ever they may be - may look much different from what we see. They may have more asura like technology (though different structure shapes obviously), or they may be as crude as the Charr in GW1. We don't know, and I never stated they are, but they could.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Breakfast Mc Rit

Would I like to consider this hypothesis? Yes, it would excite and reignite my curiosity in the Mursaat. I can't, however, because so far I've only read some clever ideas with no real backing. Except, of course, the quote you gave from an NPC who "senses" power in the tokens.

Well, technically, that is what a hypothesis is - an idea with poor support that one desires to seek further into. However, in this case, it is currently impossible to do so.

Breakfast Mc Rit · Nov 25, 2009, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Uhm... of the golem we saw from the in-game footage of GW2 from the trailer (not on my computer so cannot get a picture), there are no joints. The fingers, the arms, the legs are all floating apart from the main body.

Either you're not understanding me or you choose not to. I know what the golem you're referring to looks like. No joints, brown, gold trim. Yes? Still very mechanical in appearance. Is the lack of joints incidental or look that way in any way? Highly unlikely, but that's a different topic. The Jade, on the other hand...

Quote:

I'm talking about a potential technology we do not see. We hardly see their entire culture - just their military at best. Their real homes - where ever they may be - may look much different from what we see. They may have more asura like technology (though different structure shapes obviously), or they may be as crude as the Charr in GW1. We don't know, and I never stated they are, but they could.

I am aware of that, but the Mursaat could potentially be alien to Tyria. They could potentially be plotting to overthrow the races once the dragons are killed or put to rest. Potentially, many things can exist.

My point is that there is a theme that Anet's lore and artistic teams have given the Mursaat (and the Asura) that is very distinct that so far does not suggest mechanical technology whatsoever. My question to you now is, why would the Mursaat have such technology in other aspects of their culture and yet leave it out (completely, as far as I know) of a very important branch of their society?

Quote:

Well, technically, that is what a hypothesis is - an idea with poor support that one desires to seek further into. However, in this case, it is currently impossible to do so.

I know what a hypothesis is. However, your hypothesis brings in technology that has yet to be seen, based on these tokens having the probability of carrying a source of power for said technology...because the Mursaat sound mechanical to you.

Can you see why it's so hard for me to consider this? I'm sure if you were on my end, you'd shrug this off as a crackpot idea. Again, very interesting, but with what we've seen of the race and what we know so far, it's not floating, in my opinion.

Konig Des Todes · Nov 27, 2009, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Breakfast Mc Rit

Either you're not understanding me or you choose not to. I know what the golem you're referring to looks like. No joints, brown, gold trim. Yes? Still very mechanical in appearance. Is the lack of joints incidental or look that way in any way? Highly unlikely, but that's a different topic. The Jade, on the other hand...

Technically, of what we see, the new Asura Golem from the trailer isn't mechanical at all - it is made out of wood and metal, and uses magic to move. As per the definition for machine, the golem seen does not seem to have "an apparatus consisting of interrelated parts with separate functions" - i.e., joints, screws, wedges, gears, etc.

So those two (gw2 golem and jade armor) would be the same in essence, just different design and material. That is the similarity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Breakfast Mc Rit

My point is that there is a theme that Anet's lore and artistic teams have given the Mursaat (and the Asura) that is very distinct that so far does not suggest mechanical technology whatsoever. My question to you now is, why would the Mursaat have such technology in other aspects of their culture and yet leave it out (completely, as far as I know) of a very important branch of their society?

...

However, your hypothesis brings in technology that has yet to be seen, based on these tokens having the probability of carrying a source of power for said technology...because the Mursaat sound mechanical to you.

Can you see why it's so hard for me to consider this? I'm sure if you were on my end, you'd shrug this off as a crackpot idea. Again, very interesting, but with what we've seen of the race and what we know so far, it's not floating, in my opinion.

Hmmm, I see the issue indeed. I think it is the understanding of the term technology. I do not mean technology that is machinery like the GW1 golem, nor the typical "sci-fi" look which seem to be the GW2 Asura, but instead what can be seen here. Mainly "the terminology of an art, science, etc." and most like the definition "the sum of the ways in which social groups provide themselves with the material objects of their civilization."

In other words, technology wouldn't be machines and the like, but how one uses their resources to further their society. So in this case, the Mursaat would be a magical technological society (while the asura would be a magical/machine mix) - but with the mask, I said mechanical like, meaning it doesn't have to be machines, per say, but just sounding like it (which would most likely be caused by the mask, as I said, though I gave other explanations).

I think the issue came when I brought up the Asura as a comparison.

That or my thinking process changed in the two days I had no internet access.

Gmr Leon · Nov 27, 2009, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Technically, of what we see, the new Asura Golem from the trailer isn't mechanical at all - it is made out of wood and metal, and uses magic to move. As per the definition for machine, the golem seen does not seem to have "an apparatus consisting of interrelated parts with separate functions" - i.e., joints, screws, wedges, gears, etc.

So those two (gw2 golem and jade armor) would be the same in essence, just different design and material. That is the similarity.

...Wood? I don't see the wood in the newer golem models, but if you say so..

Also, I am going to contest the lack of joints in this case, albeit stretching it a bit in the process.

Check out the knees and elbows. Crystals in-between. This suggests joints by a different nature, connected through invisible means. Almost, you could say, similar to a magnet that both attracts and repels the parts at the same time on both poles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Hmmm, I see the issue indeed. I think it is the understanding of the term technology. I do not mean technology that is machinery like the GW1 golem, nor the typical "sci-fi" look which seem to be the GW2 Asura, but instead what can be seen here. Mainly "the terminology of an art, science, etc." and most like the definition "the sum of the ways in which social groups provide themselves with the material objects of their civilization."

In other words, technology wouldn't be machines and the like, but how one uses their resources to further their society. So in this case, the Mursaat would be a magical technological society (while the asura would be a magical/machine mix) - but with the mask, I said mechanical like, meaning it doesn't have to be machines, per say, but just sounding like it (which would most likely be caused by the mask, as I said, though I gave other explanations).

It's either a difference in understanding or you pulling up your definition defense to cover your ideas.

Konig Des Todes · Nov 27, 2009, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

...Wood? I don't see the wood in the newer golem models, but if you say so..

Been ages and I recalled brown. Never paid attention to the golem with the trailer in a big screen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Check out the knees and elbows. Crystals in-between. This suggests joints by a different nature, connected through invisible means. Almost, you could say, similar to a magnet that both attracts and repels the parts at the same time on both poles.

By this standard, we can easily say Jade Armos are machines due to how they act in a similar way - though without the crystals in between the limbs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

It's either a difference in understanding or you pulling up your definition defense to cover your ideas.

Like I said "I think the issue came when I brought up the Asura as a comparison. That or my thinking process changed in the two days I had no internet access."

Anyways, a friend pointed something out to me just now. The design in the Mursaat Tokens is the same as that of the Ether Seal:

The biggest image of a Mursaat Token I can find

In Abaddon's Mouth mission, we destroy Ether Seals to free spirits - in the bonus from an Ether Seal guardian Soul Batteries (unknown if the soul comes from the batteries or from the seal), and at the end from the eight seals - those spirits seem to come from the soul batteries.

This means that the seals - the design - that we see on the Ether Seals, and on the Mursaat Tokens, do have some ability to trap a soul. Which further supports this "untapped inner power" in the tokens being souls. Though whether they are Mursaat souls like I proposed, or the souls of others, is unknown.

This deduction also further supports the idea that Jade Armors are powered by souls. Not just by the Jade Armors dropping Mursaat Tokens, but the fact that the "body" of the Ether Seals are the same shape and material as the in-animate versions of the Jade Armors.

Gmr Leon · Nov 27, 2009, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

By this standard, we can easily say Jade Armos are machines due to how they act in a similar way - though without the crystals in between the limbs.

I disagree. In the case of the golem, it's clearly intended.

Whereas, in the case of the Jade Armor, it is quite clearly less so, and is just a case of the torso taking shards from the Jade egg's shattering to use as its arms. The only major supporting factors here lie in the head, slight bit of the torso, shoulders, forearms, and hands, aside from that, the majority of the form seems quite shoddy and quickly put together.

Konig Des Todes · Nov 27, 2009, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I disagree. In the case of the golem, it's clearly intended.

-snip image-

Whereas, in the case of the Jade Armor, it is quite clearly less so, and is just a case of the torso taking shards from the Jade egg's shattering to use as its arms. The only major supporting factors here lie in the head, slight bit of the torso, shoulders, forearms, and hands, aside from that, the majority of the form seems quite shoddy and quickly put together.

It was a bit of a sarcastic note on the idea of "invisible joints" - basically one can say that anything that makes only a joint-like motion (which would include the Jade Armor's arms) would be a joint - whether visible or not - and thus a machine. Literally with the Jade Armor, the joints are "invisible" - or more specifically derived from magic (which could very easily be the case with the golems).

Oh, and the major supporting factors you listed, include what would be listed as "invisible joints" - so really, you didn't disagree with me.