Curse

Arghore · Nov 01, 2009, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Couple of things that struck me:

1. When things die, they goto the UW.. (fact)
2. Apparently when things die in the UW, they pass into the void, feeding Dhuum (assumption)

3. Dhuum got replaced by Grenth (with help of reapers, sort of UW revolt) mainly because of Dhuum's 'unjust' treatment of the dead.. (fact)
4. Grenth isnt realy treating the ghost in the UW any better, by letting mortals in to farm the ghosts like sheep; and with doing so, sending them into the void (see 2) ... (assumption)
5. So Dhuum might even have 'ghosts' from the UW side helping him, for atleast under the reign of Dhuum you knew what you were facing, under grenth's reign one is left to the will of the mortal (further speculation), ak just like Grenth got help from the Reapers to defeat Dhuum...

6. Strenght of Dhuum?, when the gods defeated Abaddon, Grenth got the power of Ice, Abaddon remained the god of secrets locked away in the realm of torment ; When 'we' defeated Abaddon, kormir became the god of Truth.. (fact ..the remaining power of Abaddon remains unknown (if any)
7. When Dhuum got defeated by Grenth, Grenth became the ruler of the UW & god of death; Dhuum remained the god of the End (the more resolute conclusion of death) and the ruler of the Void (which by my views represents 'the nothingness') ... he is also locked away, and on the verge of breaking free...
8. We are to expect a legendary battle if we get to fight him, im expecting we will only find ways to strengthen the enchantments on his prison, but like said the comming of the end is inevitable, which sorta brings me to 9.

Personal speculations:
9. Dhuum's comming, or the comming of the End, represents (to me atleast) the end of GW1 and the comming of GW2, meaning as much as, allot of the characters will mostlikely move on to GW2, leaving GW1 an empty and desolate place; true the killing in the UW will stop as ppl move on to GW2, but it might allready be to late, GW1 (the past) is surely to become a forgotten place, most characters will pass into a void of nothingness, with only a few to be remembered by a few (remember for this that Dhuum did not condemn all spirits to nothingness) ...
10. Something i wondered about, is the excistance of an Underworld in GW2, perhaps there isnt one, meaning, the UW has to be locked off somewhere in the past; this would mean that Dhuum will come and WIN, reclaiming his reign over the underworld and sealing it off for entry by humans.. Grenth would remain a god of necromancy, but without a thrown in the underworld, or a sealed off one...

Free Runner · Nov 01, 2009, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arghore

4. Grenth isnt realy treating the ghost in the UW any better, by letting mortals in to farm the ghosts like sheep; and with doing so, sending them into the void (see 2) ... (assumption)

5. So Dhuum might even have 'ghosts' from the UW side helping him, for atleast under the reign of Dhuum you knew what you were facing, under grenth's reign one is left to the will of the mortal (further speculation), ak just like Grenth got help from the Reapers to defeat Dhuum...

These two are incorrect. When you enter the Underworld your not fighting the Spirits of people who died in Tyria. Your actually protecting them in most cases. When Dhuum first attacked the Underworld and trapped the Reapers, creatures such as the Grasping Darkness began preying upon spirits.

The things that are dying and giving energy to Dhuum are native to the Underworld, things such as the demonic guardians, the Aaxte, the ghostly Smites and the Coldfire Nights ect. The only Spirits that are fought are those who, thanks to Dhuums demons, have been placed in the wrong area of the Underworld, and due to them being unstable, attacking the other Spirits.

So Grenth isnt mistreating any spirits - on the contrary Dhuums attack on the Underworld is what caused the spirits to be attacked in the first place.

Konig Des Todes · Nov 01, 2009, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arghore

1. When things die, they goto the UW.. (fact)
2. Apparently when things die in the UW, they pass into the void, feeding Dhuum (assumption)

1. Unless there is a special case - like with Shiro and Ural.
2. I would disagree, I think that, normally, spirits and creatures who die in the Rift (which I believe the Realms of the Gods are in) will return to the Mists, to be created into something else - as something cannot be created from nothing in physics.

I think the Void is an "alternate death" - a location which souls of creatures go to when killed in specific ways that would send them to the Void and prevents reuse of the energy of the soul.

Free Runner's correct on points 3 and 4 (read Reaper of the Forgotten Vale's and Reaper of the Bone Pits' quests), so I'll pass it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arghore

Dhuum remained the god of the End (the more resolute conclusion of death) and the ruler of the Void (which by my views represents 'the nothingness') ... he is also locked away, and on the verge of breaking free...

We actually do not know if Dhuum is still a god.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arghore

We are to expect a legendary battle if we get to fight him, im expecting we will only find ways to strengthen the enchantments on his prison, but like said the comming of the end is inevitable, which sorta brings me to 9.

Personal speculations:
9. Dhuum's comming, or the comming of the End, represents (to me atleast) the end of GW1 and the comming of GW2, meaning as much as, allot of the characters will mostlikely move on to GW2, leaving GW1 an empty and desolate place; true the killing in the UW will stop as ppl move on to GW2, but it might allready be to late, GW1 (the past) is surely to become a forgotten place, most characters will pass into a void of nothingness, with only a few to be remembered by a few (remember for this that Dhuum did not condemn all spirits to nothingness) ...
10. Something i wondered about, is the excistance of an Underworld in GW2, perhaps there isnt one, meaning, the UW has to be locked off somewhere in the past; this would mean that Dhuum will come and WIN, reclaiming his reign over the underworld and sealing it off for entry by humans.. Grenth would remain a god of necromancy, but without a thrown in the underworld, or a sealed off one...

I disagree with the "end of GW1" - as Anet has repeatedly said they'll continue content updates and will keep GW1 servers running after GW2's release. We also can safely assume lore will continue in GW1 as long as Linsey is working on the Live Team because, as she said, she "f***ing LOVE lore".

While facing Dhuum seems to be a sure thing now, I doubt he'll win. We have confirmation of Grenth in GW2 (Grenth is in the GW2 Artbook). Also, with the Underworld being the main location where spirits appear at, I would doubt that the gods would let Dhuum rule the place, as that would mean there would be no death since their spirits would, most likely, be destroyed upon arriving into a realm controlled by Dhuum.

Arghore · Nov 01, 2009, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

These two are incorrect. When you enter the Underworld your not fighting the Spirits of people who died in Tyria. Your actually protecting them in most cases. When Dhuum first attacked the Underworld and trapped the Reapers, creatures such as the Grasping Darkness began preying upon spirits.

The things that are dying and giving energy to Dhuum are native to the Underworld, things such as the demonic guardians, the Aaxte, the ghostly Smites and the Coldfire Nights ect. The only Spirits that are fought are those who, thanks to Dhuums demons, have been placed in the wrong area of the Underworld, and due to them being unstable, attacking the other Spirits.

So Grenth isnt mistreating any spirits - on the contrary Dhuums attack on the Underworld is what caused the spirits to be attacked in the first place.

Thats human spirits that are friendly, i saw allot of unfriendly spirits too ? and also what looked like animal spirits (esp. smites) atleast im a firm believer that animal spirits goto the UW too if we slay them in Tyria, unless ofcourse they goto melandru's realm, which unfortunatly we have no access too...

Quote:

I disagree with the "end of GW1" - as Anet has repeatedly said they'll continue content updates and will keep GW1 servers running after GW2's release. We also can safely assume lore will continue in GW1 as long as Linsey is working on the Live Team because, as she said, she "f***ing LOVE lore".

True they said this, but i would assume it to be rather empty at times due to ppl being in GW2 and perhaps not care that much for GW1, in that view those 'hero' wont return to Tyria GW1 and are 'gone' forever, in a more figuratly way of speaking (hope i spelled that right) ... and i forgot about those pics in the artbook, you are right, so 10 is a bit off :P

So in a more scematic way, 'life & death'-cycle on Tyria woud look a bit like:

Live
|
Death (to underworld)
|
Life in UnderWorld
|
Death in Underworld (either)
/''''''''''''''''' '''''' '''''' ''''' '\
Mists, , , , , , , , , , Void (The end?)
/
Life

Konig Des Todes · Nov 01, 2009, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arghore

Thats human spirits that are friendly, i saw allot of unfriendly spirits too ? and also what looked like animal spirits (esp. smites) atleast im a firm believer that animal spirits goto the UW too if we slay them in Tyria, unless ofcourse they goto melandru's realm, which unfortunatly we have no access too...

A lot of natural creatures there are hostile to us, it isn't Grenth's will that we kill Aatxes (excluding the Vengeful Aatxes) and other natural creatures there - which may include Smites, and even some Dryders (as they may be created in the Spawning Pools).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arghore

True they said this, but i would assume it to be rather empty at times due to ppl being in GW2 and perhaps not care that much for GW1, in that view those 'hero' wont return to Tyria GW1 and are 'gone' forever, in a more figuratly way of speaking (hope i spelled that right) ... and i forgot about those pics in the artbook, you are right, so 10 is a bit off :P

I would disagree, I've seen a lot of people say that they will not move on because either they cannot afford new games, they cannot afford a new computer to play GW2 on (that would be assuming GW2 requires specs they don't have), they do not have time to play a whole new game, and/or because they have friends and guildies who will not be playing GW2 but will continue to play GW1.

So I do believe there will be plenty of people remaining - though, probably only 1/10th of what there currently is (which is still a fair number, mind you!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arghore

So in a more scematic way, 'life & death'-cycle on Tyria woud look a bit like:

Live
|
Death (to underworld)
|
Life in UnderWorld
|
Death in Underworld (either)
/''''''''''''''''' '''''' '''''' ''''' '\
Mists, , , , , , , , , , Void (The end?)
/
Life

More or less, agreed. Though I'd have to add a "death in the Mortal Realms" stage - as we see spirits in Tyria.

Free Runner · Nov 02, 2009, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arghore

Thats human spirits that are friendly, i saw allot of unfriendly spirits too ? and also what looked like animal spirits (esp. smites) atleast im a firm believer that animal spirits goto the UW too if we slay them in Tyria, unless ofcourse they goto melandru's realm, which unfortunatly we have no access too...

Unfriendly human spirits, like i mentioned , are fought. But the reason for this is because Grenths Reapers became imprisoned. This caused spirits who were angry about their death to go to the place where gentle spirits went.

Other Spirits are the smites - they share the same model as Scarabs. While its not clear what they are, its never hinted that they are animal spirits. It looks more like they are guardians of the ice wastes. Grenth cant have random people strolling in and out of the underworld, which is probably why the Aaxte, Smites and Coldfires seem to guard different areas, never attacking the dead unless they are forced to by Dhuums minions.

The reason for opening the Underworld to Tyria in the first place, was due to Dhuums forces trapping the Reapers and taking it over, causing Grenth to open it up. The guardians seem to act as a barrier to make sure only the worthy can get through them.

draxynnic · Nov 03, 2009, 10:51 AM // 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

The things that are dying and giving energy to Dhuum are native to the Underworld, things such as the demonic guardians, the Aaxte, the ghostly Smites and the Coldfire Nights ect. The only Spirits that are fought are those who, thanks to Dhuums demons, have been placed in the wrong area of the Underworld, and due to them being unstable, attacking the other Spirits.

Actually, the impression I got was that pretty much anything that died in the Underworld had its soul go to Dhuum. That's what the Mobstopper quests were about - killing even the skeletons of Dhuum would actually strengthen Dhuum, so instead we beat them into the undead equivalent of unconsciousness and stuck them inside a solid piece of candy for all eternity.

Another thing that strikes me is... How do we know that the "final death" that Dhuum presents is actually the removal of the spirit's energy from the cosmos? Even with the reference to the Void and such, the power actually seems more like it's just going straight to Dhuum, just like some of the lesser entities that use spirits for power.

In fact, one crazy thought that struck me... what if Dhuum isn't entirely in the wrong? From the perspective of a spirit, being destroyed by Dhuum would be a bad thing - but if theories that the Mists are powered by recycling spirits into the Mists are correct, Dhuum may have been the entity responsible for making sure that this energy is recycled properly. While Grenth means well, his allowing spirits to continue to live may, in the long run, be threatening the multiverse, as more and more of its energy gets locked into the form of dead spirits.

Free Runner · Nov 03, 2009, 11:53 AM // 11:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Actually, the impression I got was that pretty much anything that died in the Underworld had its soul go to Dhuum. That's what the Mobstopper quests were about - killing even the skeletons of Dhuum would actually strengthen Dhuum, so instead we beat them into the undead equivalent of unconsciousness and stuck them inside a solid piece of candy for all eternity.

I never said they wouldnt. I'm saying that the things that are dying are the creatures of the Underworld, not the spirits of the vale ect. I have no doubts that anything killed in the Underworld would give energy, but in most cases the things that are dying (To things like the infamous UWSC which seems to have been recognised in the lore) are the guardians.

Konig Des Todes · Nov 03, 2009, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Actually, the impression I got was that pretty much anything that died in the Underworld had its soul go to Dhuum.

I wouldn't say their souls go to Dhuum, actually, just that their death (somehow) empowers Dhuum. It may be the passing of souls into another plane of existence (i.e., the Mists and/or Void) which empowers such.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Another thing that strikes me is... How do we know that the "final death" that Dhuum presents is actually the removal of the spirit's energy from the cosmos? Even with the reference to the Void and such, the power actually seems more like it's just going straight to Dhuum, just like some of the lesser entities that use spirits for power.

It is an assumption, as what else could be a true final death than the removal of one's existence?

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

In fact, one crazy thought that struck me... what if Dhuum isn't entirely in the wrong? From the perspective of a spirit, being destroyed by Dhuum would be a bad thing - but if theories that the Mists are powered by recycling spirits into the Mists are correct, Dhuum may have been the entity responsible for making sure that this energy is recycled properly. While Grenth means well, his allowing spirits to continue to live may, in the long run, be threatening the multiverse, as more and more of its energy gets locked into the form of dead spirits.

I wouldn't say that Grenth is all for every soul living. I think he wishes to separate those who deserve to have an afterlife, and those who don't - hence the reason for things like the Realm of Torment (i.e., separation of spirits), and having us kill spirits instead of either just letting spirits kill each other or the like.

draxynnic · Nov 04, 2009, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

It is an assumption, as what else could be a true final death than the removal of one's existence?

Complete destruction of the personality.

If there's no afterlife for us in the real world, then dying here would be true final death - even if the raw materials that our body was composed of remains and can be recycled through the ecosystem. The same may be true for the final death Dhuum offers - the personality of the spirit is destroyed, but their spiritual energy remains.

Konig Des Todes · Nov 04, 2009, 06:01 AM // 06:01

Well, in that aspect, the simple idea of recycling energy from destroyed spirits would simply be a true death.

draxynnic · Nov 04, 2009, 11:44 AM // 11:44

Indeed. The point I was leaning towards was that Grenth is allowing spirits to hang around. Now, the "spirit recycling" theory assumes that there's some sort of system ensuring that enough spirits get returned to keep the multiverse running...

...but what if that system was Dhuum, and that by allowing spirits to survive (possibly indefinitely, if not destroyed by something), Grenth is himself risking the balance of the multiverse?

Konig Des Todes · Nov 05, 2009, 09:31 PM // 21:31

A new quest, which isn't completeable yet, but! We know the name of Mad King Thorn's home: "Mad Realm"

And it seems we'll indeed see Dhuum in a few days (according to Regina, the second part of the quest cannot be done for a few days).

KageNoShi · Nov 20, 2009, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Well now that the quest is completeable and someone was kind enough to take screenshots of Dhuum...I forgot what I was going to say. /doh >.< ...Oh well I'm just happy to finally have a nice conclusion to this quest chain.

Konig Des Todes · Nov 20, 2009, 08:30 AM // 08:30

I am saddened... Dhuum is a dervish through and through - scythe, typical Dervish clothing, Dervish model even.

I was really hoping for him having an insectoid look. I have yet to complete the quest, so I don't know of any special dialogue or anything - what I've noted through screenshots:

Reapers fight (and die) in the battle. They are in allies in the party menu.
Ice King Frozenwind is present but isn't with the reapers (he is shown after Dhuum's defeat).
Dhuum starts as a green NPC (implying dialogue).
We go into the Hall of Judgement (and it looks interesting inside!)
Dhuum is not killed, but put back into a dormant state (represented by /sit and various green barrier-like images around him).
Like Abaddon, he is huge - but based on the pictures, about half the size of Abaddon.

Grim Lich · Nov 26, 2009, 05:43 AM // 05:43

You gotta admit, Dhuum makes a pretty awesome looking Dervish.

Although this does bring up a question or two in my mind. The obvious Dervish/Reaper viewpoint is shown here, but I do recall (if I'm not wrong) that Abaddon was a Dervish himself before being overthrown. This is odd in my mind because none of the current gods have the main proffesion, (though some do span several gods, I'm mostly thinking of the Dervish's Avatars. Their Emotes are of certain gendered proffesions.)

The second question this brings to mind is, if Abaddon was not a Dervish, why do Dervishes Model themselves after Dhuum? If we assume that Grenth had defeated Dhuum a long time ago, and it's unknown what Dhuum looks like, we could just assume that it was coincidence, though I find that hard to believe. So why do Dervishes choose to resemble Dhuum? Only thing I can think of at the moment is that Dhuum doesn't have a set form, and chose to make himself look more like a reaper in a way that makes him look a lot like a Dervish.

But seriously, anyone got any ideas on this?

Gmr Leon · Nov 26, 2009, 07:41 AM // 07:41

I'm not exactly certain myself on that matter, but it does raise the question of if the hooded pillars seen in the Crystal Desert and Vabbi are in the image of Dhuum. After all, nothing says that his existence was wiped from history.

draxynnic · Nov 27, 2009, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Interesting observation...

Could it be that Abaddon took up the Dervish mantle after Dhuum's defeat, in a similar manner that it is theorised that Grenth claimed Water Magic after Abaddon's fall?

'Course, this raises the question of why Abaddon is depicted as a Dervish rather than whatever he was before Dhuum's fall - unless, of course, Grenth predates (or was a contemporary of) Abaddon.

Lishy · Nov 27, 2009, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grim Lich

But seriously, anyone got any ideas on this?

Anet needed a 3d model. So methinks they reskinned the Dervish. -Turned out really great.

In seriousness, it was only coincidence a Dervish models after Dhuum.

Konig Des Todes · Nov 27, 2009, 05:19 PM // 17:19

I think Dhuum only uses a Dervish model due to the Grim Reaper look (which I highly dislike seeing how Grenth also has the Grim Reaper look - come on, be a bit more original with the gods of death's looks).

So I don't think there is a lore connection between the Dervish and Dhuum - as Grenth at least overthrew Dhuum in the year 48 BE (if the scripture dates are truthful), and Dervishes were founded during the Shattered Dynasty Era (583 AE - 640 AE). A 600+ year gap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

After all, nothing says that his existence was wiped from history.

Except for the lack of any mention by any Tyrian ever... Surely Dhuum would have been brought up during the Tombs invasion, Dragon Festival invasion, or Nightfall aside from by the Forgotten...