Curse

draxynnic · Dec 29, 2009, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by EwolxNavi

At any rate, I'm not saying "the gods can no longer intervene". All I'm saying is that it seems that one god cannot kill another. That is the choice that only a mortal can make.

A variant on this is actually what I've been thinking for a while, although said variant is "only a mortal can absorb the power of a god". Without that absorption, as seen with Abaddon, the power of the god in question either explodes all over everything nearby (possibly killing the god or gods that killed them in the process, making it a zero-sum game) or allows the god to reconstitute themselves over time... or even both. A mortal, however, can claim those energies and usurp the god's power to prevent this.

Certainly, that seems to be the way things are from what we've seen so far (although, obviously, the sample is biased towards "events we're involved in" - for all we know there could be god-killed gods by the hundreds that we never interact with) although it is unclear whether this is because they can't, because they consider the risk to be too great, or simply because they figure they lose nothing by letting the mortals try first.

Guildmaster Cain · Jan 17, 2010, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Who said the gods created the world from scratch? I can't find any reference of that fact anywhere. It just is assumed, because 'our Christian' God dit the same. Maybe the gods just shaped it in the image they liked after it was already created from the primordal puddles of chaos. So we can say 'the gods shaped Tyria' but not 'the gods created Tyria'. There is a subtile difference in that.

Also, if there is a reference stating 'the gods created Tyria', I am sure it does NOT state that Melandru made the forests, Dwayna the skies, Abaddon the oceans, etc. The names of these certain gods are not given. So for all we know, 'the gods did create Tyria', but simply said, they are not the gods we know (Balthazar & Co).
This is also supported by the fact that Abaddon was partially succeeded by Grenth and Kormir. It is also stated in a quest, that he probably was not the first god of Water and Knowledge. So if Abaddon wasn't the first or the last god of Water and Knowledge and Dhuum wasnt the first either, could it be possible that NONE of the gods we now know weren't the first true gods? Exactly.

Have you ever read any scripture on the 'named' gods (Balthazar & Co) that is older then 150 years Before Exodus? No.

So far facts and statements, some further speculation: I think the dragons created the world of Tyria, though they didnt have a purpose for it and ruled the world in Chaos. Just like 'our Christian' God, they shaped their first followers in the image of themselves; Glint and the Forgotten (snake-like). They got bored from wreaking chaos on the primitive tribes and went to sleep. The True Six Gods learn of the existence of the world of Tyria and decide to investigate. They decided to change the world a bit, adding humans and other variaty of different creatures. Some humans are kept as 'pets' by the True Gods, but when they were not looking, these humans stole their powers and killed the first True Gods. These were Balthazar & CO, and this was probably around 150 years Before Exodus. Well, the rest is history I guess.

Only thing that is wreaking my mind still, is why Balthazar doesnt have any human-like appearance (and size) plus the fact that he is strong enough that the other 5 gods had to combine their forces to defeat him. Maybe there was another batch of gods between the first True Gods and Balthazar & Co...

Gmr Leon · Jan 18, 2010, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guildmaster Cain

Just like 'our Christian' God, they shaped their first followers in the image of themselves; Glint and the Forgotten (snake-like).

The Forgotten are said to have been brought to the world of Tyria in 1769 BE by the Old Gods, thus they are not native to Tyria.

some-_1 · Jan 31, 2010, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

If the 6 gods (the 5 true god + abaddon) created the world of Tyria, then how was there a god of death (Dhuum) b4 there were things that could die?

Didn't read the whole thread so i dont know if this has been posted before, but, the gods never *created* Tyria, they merly re-shapped it to their design.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiki

Not much is known about Tyria before the arrival of the gods. Giant skeletons lie all over and within Tyria, they are the remains of an extinct race of great giants – known as the Giganticus Lupicus to scholars – whose kind have never been gazed upon by the eyes of man.

In 1769BE, the first civilized race arrived on Tyrian soil. They were the Forgotten, a race of upright serpents, who were summoned from another world from across the mists by the gods to protect the races of the world while the gods shaped the planet to their liking. Tyria is said to be the first world created by the gods, and after the event known as the Exodus, they would go on to create more.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Tyria_(world)

Grim Lich · Jan 31, 2010, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guildmaster Cain

It just is assumed, because 'our Christian' God did the same

Which is the problem, as the gods in Guild Wars are not based off of Christianity's god, or any other religion's deity.

'your Christian' god is written to be all emcompassing, all powerful, etc, etc. The gods in Guild Wars are not. They are very powerful beings, but not the same. They also at a point, lived with "mortals" in Orr. You have to keep that in mind when forming theories on the gods.

Roupe · Feb 07, 2010, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Speculation and interpretation
My interpretation is that the gods arent only its Indivdual persons, but rather the named individual persons are the current seatholder.

The Gods are more like a chair. Whoever sits in the chair is seen as the God. But the chair is the God.

And some of the chairs and its occupant are stored in the closet. (Dhuum)

Kormir, pushed Abbadon aside and asumed his seat.

So In one sense none of the Gods are the original (For example Kormir wasnt always a God)- But in another sense they are (The chair was there) and thus together have all the knowledge, experiences and powers as the original + former seatholder & their own (For example Abbadon & Kormir)

Konig Des Todes · Feb 07, 2010, 02:42 PM // 14:42

It isn't so much speculation, as it is known that the "chair" - i.e., the gods' power/knowledge - cannot be destroyed and is, more or less, what makes the god a god.

Though I'm not sure what you meant by "individual persons" - as they rather are, but the knowledge and powered is passed on along with the title.

It's kind of like the typical storyline of a person training their successor then starts calling the successor the trainer's name. A "it's the name that sells the business" idea, though in this case it's a "it's the power and knowledge that sells the business" idea.

There are, as I see it, three main questions regarding the gods:

Who are the original gods?
Why is Dhuum around while having been replaced?
Where does their power (which is linked to a draconic force) come from?

Roupe · Feb 07, 2010, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Though I'm not sure what you meant by "individual persons" - as they rather are, but the knowledge and powered is passed on along with the title.

The concept Im trying for is that the "God" individual & the "God" chair is two parts, but are seen as one. However that clouds definition; Since the god have had earlier individuals and different propaganda.

Quote:

Who are the original gods?

The question "who" where the original gods could be answered with the not the current ones & the current ones.

It bottles down to what do we consider the Gods, But to me the chairs are the true Gods -but since they are complex & alien ;each has a delegated interpretor to guide their will.

So the alien chairs are the originals but not their interpreting seat holders.

Quote:

Why is Dhuum around while having been replaced?

Dhuum was apparently not replaced, Grenth is another God of a different "function" and is assisted by Dhuums old servants -the reapers.
Grenth can thus act as the God of death -but are in some aspects in name only. To outsiders Grenth is the God of death.
To insiders Grenth is the unknown God of Imprisonment ^^

Another thought
The magic was once one and is now divided & separate.
Similarly The gods could once have been one. That is the seats, Not the seat holders.

Konig Des Todes · Feb 07, 2010, 06:30 PM // 18:30

With the "original gods" thing, I meant the question more as who were the original holders of the power and knowledge - the first of the beings, the ones who crafted the first worlds/races, if anyone did. For instance, the Great Dwarf and Melandru are both attributed with making races and the land (one for one respectively), but were they the ones who actually did such? If not, who did? And if so, what of the other 4 or 5 gods (4 if the Great Dwarf is the predecessor of one of the six gods).

For the magic, I don't think it is so much that magic was once one and split, but that there were always the four (or more?) schools of magic, and the bloodstones just favored one school alone.

Gmr Leon · Feb 07, 2010, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

(which is linked to a draconic force)

Still not completely confirmed. That aside, I can't recall at the moment where it's said that the Great Dwarf also created Tyria, is that in dialogue or an outpost description?

Konig Des Todes · Feb 07, 2010, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Er... the Great Dwarf is given the contribution of the dwarven race. And I said that the GD/Melandru created races/land respectively - so I didn't say the Great Dwarf created Tyria.

The funny thing is, this isn't the first time you and I had this misconception. One would think that you were conditioned to respond like that when someone put "Great Dwarf" "created" and some reference to Tyria/the land in the same sentence.

Roupe · Feb 08, 2010, 03:39 AM // 03:39

The persons Great Dwarf and Melandru are not the ones that created the world or the creatures, But they sit on the chairs that did.

Since the chairs contain the previous seat-holders,
Attributing The gods Melandru and The great Dwarf as the creators would be true since the earlier seat holders are within the fused current seat holder and Chair.

Kormir + Seat = God Abbadon + Kormir = Goddess Kormir

Goddess Kormir did Abbadons deads & missdeads; when she was Abbadon.

The Great dwarf and Melandrus chairs could have been one and the same at some point. But like the magic of the world was divided. They are now divided and separated. Or its only propaganda exaggerations for the Gods.

Konig Des Todes · Feb 08, 2010, 03:30 PM // 15:30

If that was the case, all of the gods would be attributed to creating the world - including Kormir, as this isn't the case (thus far at least), I find it unlikely to be how you say. How I see it, either the tales of Melandru and the Great Dwarf are lies, or those two literally attributed to creation.

Konig Des Todes · Feb 08, 2010, 03:30 PM // 15:30

If that was the case, all of the gods would be attributed to creating the world - including Kormir, as this isn't the case (thus far at least), I find it unlikely to be how you say. How I see it, either the tales of Melandru and the Great Dwarf are lies, or those two literally attributed to creation.

Gmr Leon · Feb 09, 2010, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Er... the Great Dwarf is given the contribution of the dwarven race. And I said that the GD/Melandru created races/land respectively - so I didn't say the Great Dwarf created Tyria.

The funny thing is, this isn't the first time you and I had this misconception. One would think that you were conditioned to respond like that when someone put "Great Dwarf" "created" and some reference to Tyria/the land in the same sentence.

I somehow managed to overlook that. I think the reason I have that response is because of our discussion of Dwarven monotheism in-game and in another thread elsewhere. (Which I've recently become aware that there's a term for the Dwarves religious tendencies that is more appropriate than monotheism, henotheism. The worship of one god while acknowledging the existence or possible existence of other deities.)

draxynnic · Feb 26, 2010, 12:25 PM // 12:25

As one thought:

Are we certain Grenth hasn't taken Dhuum's seat? While we've seen one seat-stealing that required the death of the sitter (Kormir and Abaddon) that doesn't mean it's the only way it can happen - Grenth may have found a way to steal Dhuum's "seat" without actually having to destroy Dhuum, with the latter's indestructibility being from some other property than his divinity.

Astral_Nomad · Feb 26, 2010, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Darkblight

That part of lore is blank and probably will stay that way.

That's part of the deal with being gods... gods are mysterious and do things for their own reasons without the consent or accountability to mortals. Besides, if we knew everything about the gods, there would be no reason for "faith" (believing in something you cannot see, touch or hear) and my bet it is they would be a lot less interesting.

Kopa The Demon King · Mar 09, 2010, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

If the 6 gods (the 5 true god + abaddon) created the world of Tyria, then how was there a god of death (Dhuum) b4 there were things that could die?
Did Grenth use to be god of something else and Dhuum helped create the world also? Or is Dhuum the original and Grenth just crawled out a hole somewhere and take over as god of death?

Same with Menzie. Did he help create he world and then Balthazar appeared out of nowhere to become the god of war?

The gods are higher ascended beings (probably human) who took the role of a god. They did NOT create the world, rather they shaped it. Dhuum was the ORIGIONAL god in place of Grenth, and grenth became another ascended being, and he cast Dhuum down, and tried his best to kill him (didnt happen but meh) so The gods had a new god of death in place of Dhuum.

MENZIES is Balthasars brother, an d its simple enough to say he could have inherited the same, or similar power, he didnt crawl out of nowhere, he was there alongside Balthasar, and when goold old Balthy got the throne for God of war Menzies got jealous, and recruited followers (now the shadow army) to try and overthropw Balthasar, and the battle still rages today.

They didnt crawl from nowhere, they have descent (though loose) backstories, and honestly i think this is all they need even though id like to read more, it is only a game. they dont need to make a full blown religion.

Neo Atomisk · Mar 11, 2010, 03:32 PM // 15:32

the fictional scholars don't know everything - we can only interpret what they say. they aren't always right.

Konig Des Todes · Mar 11, 2010, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Kopa, RedDog saying "crawl out of a hole somewhere" means that they were unimportant prior, or just simply that they were not gods or a threat to the gods.

Also, nothing says Dhuum is original - he's just the predecessor of Grenth. Much like how Abaddon is not original either.