Curse

Gmr Leon · Dec 24, 2009, 05:41 AM // 05:41

Eating complete, now where to start...

First off, we don't know that the Gods created their realms, we don't even know if they created anything from scratch, really. The Manuscripts state that humans were "birthed upon the world" and that they "arrived naked and defenseless." They also state that the Forgotten were brought to the world to shepherd the other creatures in this "time of transition" while "the gods continued to create the world around them."

This doesn't exactly work out, when you think about it, and this has been mentioned elsewhere. Only the humans technically claim that the Gods created the world of Tyria, and I am unaware of any other races which support this claim. Considering this, it's pretty clear from the start that it's more or less conjecture, and is subject to alteration through illumination via new information.

Edit: Although I continually forget, the Charr also have legends of Melandru "creating" the world, however this is mentioned briefly and not in any significant detail, much like that found in the Manuscripts, so it's difficult to say how this may have appeared to the Charr.

Given this, the Gods aren't nearly as godly as one may be used to. There have been Gods before the current pantheon, and chances are there will be successors to them in the future, unless they found a loophole. This also leads to the viewpoint that Tyria, while we still haven't a clue how it came into being, may simply have been terraformed by the Gods to make it the way they wanted it to look or to suit their creations or something of that nature.

I would also like to note here that Dwayna is the oldest of the current pantheon from what we can tell by the Scriptures at their statues. This is, however, only if the date provided there is that of their ascension to Godhood.

As to Menzies and Dhuum and Abaddon. To clear something up, Menzies and Dhuum have never been described in a good light. Ever. They weren't some innocent fellows who ruled their respective realms (well, except Dhuum, he did rule the Underworld from what we know but he wasn't innocent) and were knocked out by some insolent power hungry jerks. Dhuum was taken out because he was unjust, as has been said, but nothing implies he created the Underworld.

Menzies is just Balthazar's upstart half-brother who, from what we can surmise, wants to seize control over the Fissure of Woe for yet another unknown purpose. To become a God, perhaps, but we don't know with any certainty.

Abaddon's a special case. He was designated as the one to represent the Gods and distribute magic, but apparently he was too generous and this spurred conflict among the creatures of the world. After this you get the usual Doric story, but with the add-in that Abaddon disagreed with and fought the Gods which led to his being cast down into the Realm of Torment for it.

What's fascinating is that even the Realm of Torment doesn't seem to have been created by the Gods, rather, it seems to be a patchwork of reality, with little bits and pieces "sewn" together to form it, and with only the locks (the Gates we pass through) and the Shadow Nexus having been created. (Edit: Note here, that the Shadow Nexus was not created, I was responding with information from memory, it was simply a shard of reality left behind by the Gods.)

Before someone comes in and says that Abaddon made the Margonites, he didn't make them any more than the Gods appear to have made the humans. He simply "corrupted" them or altered their form to become what we see.

Also, the only evidence we have for Tyria being the "first" world is from a human, therefore it is not only unlikely to be true, but is influenced by the beliefs of that individual.

However, it should be noted on your brainbursting post that there does seem to be some suggestion that the Gods, or at least their powers, are a part of the Universe (Mists, in this case) itself. As Kerrsh states that the Gods are part of "this world", I suspect it could transcend Tyria, as he is merely in the beginning stages of his research, and extend into the Mists themselves. This is especially so considering the Asuran view of the Eternal Alchemy.

..I think I covered every point here, if not, I'll see what I can do.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 24, 2009, 11:04 AM // 11:04

Firstly, I apologize for the long post, the thread grew fast...

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

If the 6 gods (the 5 true god + abaddon) created the world of Tyria, then how was there a god of death (Dhuum) b4 there were things that could die?

The tale about the gods creating Tyria is most likely a lie. This is believed mainly due to the Giganticus Lupicus' existence being around 7,000 years before any mention of any other race (which includes actions of the gods). Also, Jeff Grubb said that the gods are older, but not by much, than the humans (though how old the humans are is unknown still).

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

Did Grenth use to be god of something else and Dhuum helped create the world also? Or is Dhuum the original and Grenth just crawled out a hole somewhere and take over as god of death?

What Grenth was is unknown. I personally think he was a "lord" (or lesser "god") on a similar power to Ice King Frozenwind, Mad King Thorn, and Menzies. Though that is purely speculation based on the Reaper of the Labyrinth calling Grenth the lord of death and that Grenth didn't finish off Dhuum - which could be due to being unable to absorb all his power (unlike the case with Abaddon).

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

Same with Menzie. Did he help create he world and then Balthazar appeared out of nowhere to become the god of war?

Like all of the origin of the gods, Menzies' origin and power is unknown. And Menzies isn't a god (a common misconception), only Balthazar is.

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Originally Posted by Hell Darkblight

Um... it's a game...

Look where your posting, please. Every (good) game has its own story, and this specific forum is for discussing the lore of the game.

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Originally Posted by Hell Darkblight

That part of lore is blank and probably will stay that way.

I doubt that it will stay blank. By the statements made by Jeff and Ree about new GW2 lore from the interviews, it sounds like we're going to learn more on the origin and past of the gods.

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Originally Posted by Hell Darkblight

Before those gods there were dragons (Tyria, here be dragons lol)
Before dragons / gods there was mist only.

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Originally Posted by RedDog91

The dragons were one of the first (or realitively so) creations of the gods.
they weren't there first.

This is not entirely true. The Gods' age is unknown (just as the humans' age is unknown). We don't know how old the elder dragons are either.

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Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

There is 3 gods of the dead. Menzies, Grenth and Dhuum. Abbadon is the god of chaos and Balthazar is the one who imprisoned him.

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Originally Posted by Benderama

Mensies .... were gods but not one of the five greater gods or something

Oh so terribly off!

Menzies is not a god. Abaddon (not Abbadon) is the god of Knowledge and Water. All 5 gods imprisoned Abaddon.

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Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

Also, Menzies controlled the Fissure of Woe until one again Balthazar sealed him and took control.

Not true! The Fissure of Woe is Balthazar's realm which is in war between the Eternals and the Shadow Army. It was temporarily mostly taken over control by the Shadow Army (Menzies' forces). Not once did Menzies control the whole Fissure of Woe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

Everything was fine until the 5 gods left Tyria and in return shared their abilities to the creatures hoping we can take care of ourselves. For 1200 years the seals held strong until literally all hell broke lose.

The gods left because Abaddon gave out magic and the war between the gods was devastating.... Magic wasn't some "parting gift" like you put it.

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Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

So to put it simple, Grenth is a total a-hole that wanted to control the afterlife all to himself. Balthazar decided to seal Abbadon and Menzies simply because he didn't want to leave Tyria to share the boon and the only guidance the gods left for us is the spirit's that guards the shines.

Wrong again. The lore we have on Abaddon (can be found here) states that Abaddon was the one who was charged with giving out magic, but he gave it out without limit and that caused wars. The gods created the bloodstones, but Abaddon disagreed and then started a fight which turned into a war. Abaddon didn't really do anything to deserve all those years in the Realm of Torment, and he wasn't evil until his imprisonment really.

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Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

According to what I read on wiki, my conclusion is that the gods didn't trust one another so the 5 original gods thought, screw it, they got rid of the gods they didn't like and left Tyria because they don't want to care for it.

That explains why everything you said is wrong! I bet you looked on the unofficial wiki (the only good that is for is historical content and that translation of Abaddon lore).

Zodiac, I suggest you look deeper into the lore...

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Originally Posted by RedDog91

But if they are the 5 original, then how was Menzies the ruler of FoW b4 Balthazar and Dhuum the god of death b4 Grenth?

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Originally Posted by Roy_

I think that them being "original" is another lie.

Nothing states they are the original gods. In fact, as EwolxNavi said, we know Abaddon is not original at all.

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Originally Posted by Roy_

I'm a little hazy on lore though... Gmr or Kiong should be in shortly though, and if I've stated anything wrong then they will correct me.

Sorry for my delay, been busy all day.

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Originally Posted by Benderama

there are plenty of gods in GW not all of them are worshipped by humans or called the "true" gods. (the great dwarf and destroyer both exist but aren't worshipped)

I wouldn't call the Great Destroyer - at least the one we fought - a god in the least.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benderama

so maybe dhuum is more of the god of non-existance? the wiki page for dhuum and menzies explains it better than me ^^

Dhuum didn't allow resurrection or undeath. That is how it was harsher - no second chances at life. At least, that's all we know.

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Originally Posted by RedDog91

History/Lore also says that after creating Tyria (the first world) they went off to create many more.

New lore (read: Bahltek) states that the human belief that Tyria was the first planet is false.

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Originally Posted by RedDog91

Could this be the basis behind World vs. World in GW2?

Was stated World vs World is basically servers fighting each other (example in GW terms: Europe servers vs America servers)

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Originally Posted by RedDog91

and if so, does this mean every world they created is exactly the same and has the EXACT same events happen...seems to me they woulda fixed the problem atleast by world 3

I highly doubt this. There cannot be 3 Abaddons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

If the dragons are older than the gods, and the gods created the world, then how did the dragons walk the world b4 it was created?

Look above.

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Originally Posted by RedDog91

Part of this assumption comes from Menzies being Balthazar's half-brother. Meaning that there were atleast 3 gods before them (1 dad and 2 moms or vice versa).

These gods are not like the typical mythos gods! They do not become gods by genes. Balthazar's parents do not need to be gods.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Darkblight

And they did create. They created realms. UW is one of them. Realm of Torment is one of them. UW is actually part of Realm of Torment and both are located in Mists. One was was place for the dead, other was prison for Abbadon. So ye, creating realms is easy, takes about 1 year of programming and tuning it.

The Realm of Torment, by the gw.dat lore, was originally the realm controlled by Abaddon, converted to a prison.

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Originally Posted by Chthon

Eve's dialogue at the end of NF implies at least one other god was "created" in ancient times (human ancient times, since Eve knows about it).

I think Eve was talking about Abaddon, to be honest, which she probably learned from the Apostate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

The "5 gods" (now 6 gods) are pretty weak for gods. They can't contain or deal with Abbadon for themselves, can't contain or deal with Dhuum for themselves, can't keep control of UW or FoW without help, etc. It doesn't make sense that these 5 could create the world, but can't kill a few dryders in UW.

Do you see the gods in the Underworld or Fissure of Woe? I don't. Why can't they be in another realm, too far to directly influence the war, and not to mention that, for Menzies, he and Abaddon corrupted many Eternals which gave the upper hand. With the Underworld, that is unknown how they easily gained an upper hand (aside from learning how to imprison Grenth's greatest allies - the Reapers). Was probably a case of a sneak attack.

My opinions of why Grenth couldn't handle Dhuum is above, and as for Abaddon, see this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

It seems to me that the most likely explanation is that the "5 gods" (now 6 gods) are "gods" in the sense that the mursaat were "gods," only a little better at it. They are powerful magic users, formerly human, possessed of a power older than themselves, and capable of imbuing others with some degree of magical power.

Not to mention unaging. But I don't see how that is an issue with the concept of "god" anyways - as long as you don't compare them to the monotheistic god, which many do.

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Originally Posted by RedDog91

All 5 true gods (and Abaddon) are said to be siblings of each other with Balthazar being the oldest.

Where is this said? Only reference I know of siblings would be the gods being "brothers and sisters" in them all being gods. Not literal brother and sister (clearly not the case). Dwayna would be the leader and if anyone is the oldest, I bet it is her.

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Originally Posted by RedDog91

And Cynn says Abaddon is a filler god like Kormir. So does this make all the gods filler gods?

Where is this said?

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Originally Posted by RedDog91

Maybe ANET didn't think of a way to explain everything they left open for debate and will use ideas they steal from forums to make sense of it all.

Every idea constantly changes. There is bound to be some holes left open for later thoughts.

I only skimmed Patrisha MacFarlane's post, due to the length and my mental state at the time, but from what I noted, I agree with what he/she said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Anywho, I've tried to stay out of the lore forum more or less since my thinking apparently upsets some people enough to actually call me "dangerous."

From what I read, the only thing that is "dangerous" would be your firm stance on the topic. But that's bound to occur.

Going to overlook Leon's post for the same reason I overlooked Patrisha - plus I know Leon knows what he is talking about (unless it deals with things contradicted/stated in the gw.dat).

I'll get to those two posts, and my own thoughts (along with any new posts) after I sleep. Oh, and RedDog91, read up on Bahltek.

draxynnic · Dec 24, 2009, 11:20 AM // 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

[*]The "5 gods" (now 6 gods) are pretty weak for gods. They can't contain or deal with Abbadon for themselves, can't contain or deal with Dhuum for themselves, can't keep control of UW or FoW without help, etc. It doesn't make sense that these 5 could create the world, but can't kill a few dryders in UW.[/list]

Can't or won't?

And "can't" may not actually mean "incapable" if they're busy with other things. Certainly the gods aren't omnipotent, but when we point out the things we don't see them doing, we don't know what they might be doing that we don't see. Plus, it's possible that Grenth and Balthazar are actually demonstrating an attitude of "well, if the adventurers want to try fixing the problems themselves, might as well let them try and maybe save me some distraction from [insert other problem here].

And that's without going into the possibility that for whatever reason the gods can't directly intervene (without risking making things worse) or that the heroes aren't themselves the intervention (maybe the only reason Dhuum seems so weak is that Grenth is helping at a level we don't see. Think of the effectiveness of one or two warriors when the rest of the party is serving to support them - when we're fighting against Abaddon, Dhuum and the others, the party may be taking the role of those warriors - we just don't happen to see the blessings and curses of the gods on our display.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

Tyria was the first world. So no, there was no life. Either the UW really was just an empty void of nothingness or it didn't exist until there was a need for it to.

Nowhere does it say this - in fact, the reverse is strongly implied. (The gods came to Tyria... from somewhere else. Then they brought the serpents to Tyria... also, presumably, from somewhere else.)

Hells Fury · Dec 24, 2009, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:Originally Posted by Hell Darkblight
Um... it's a game...

Look where your posting, please. Every (good) game has its own story, and this specific forum is for discussing the lore of the game.

By that i meant the game lore and game is susceptible to changes and expansion. It's not carved in stone. They could add 5 more gods (or take down) if they want and 5 elder gods, and 5 more lesser gods and moar dragons etc etc.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 25, 2009, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Okay, I've gotten a good amount of sleep finally and can handle reading walls of text again. So, I shall continue my commentation on previously stated statements of this thread, and perhaps throw in my own say at the end... We'll see.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrisha MacFarlane

It's clear to me that the six Gods came to Tyria and found it in elemental chaos under the sway of these Primordial dragons.

I agree completely with your post until this. It is not clear in any way what, if any, relation the gods and the elder dragons had. For all we know, there was no relation - perhaps the dragons ate all there was and went into hibernation to wait for food to regrow (which would explain the 7,000 years of nothing), and during that time of hibernation, the gods came upon the world of Tyria.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrisha MacFarlane

Assuming that the UW must have been empty before Tyria was created or couldn't have existed before then seems rather silly, unless you are claiming that life only exists on Tyria and nowhere else in the Universe.

The bolded cannot be claimed as we know this to be inaccurate. Demons and "Nightmares" (whatever those things are in reality, excluding the "spirit nightmares" - which includes Azures and Vaettirs) at least exist elsewhere as flesh and blood.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrisha MacFarlane

Suggesting that because a God has parents he of she couldn't be a "creator" god is pretty outrageous too. There are MANY mythos in which Gods play a central role that presents them as creators of many things despite having an origin themselves. David Eddings, who is condidered in fantasy circles to be the originator of the modern fantasy "God mythos", writes in The Belgariad about Gods who are the children of the Universe itself, but who are also creators in their own right. This idea has been borrowed in literally hundreds of fictional works in the years following its publication.

Though to have a step-brother wouldn't really be children of the universe idea, as the GW version of that would be "children of the Mists" - I would assume - and unless this barely mentioned "the Void" would be the "other parent" of Menzies, that idea just wouldn't work here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

I would also like to note here that Dwayna is the oldest of the current pantheon from what we can tell by the Scriptures at their statues. This is, however, only if the date provided there is that of their ascension to Godhood.

This cannot be the case due to Abaddon's scripture being dated at 1 BE and that is when he gave magic, not ascended. Also, if Melandru is said to have helped in the creation of the world, how could she be obviously younger than the world? That just doesn't add up and is an illogical belief. The only one which could pass is Grenth but that is still iffy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EwolxNavi

I think there's enough of a prescedent set to conclude that these gods are (for some reason) incapable of dealing with these particular problems themselves.

What prescendent? I know of no such thing. It is simply that the gods let us solve their problems, and we know nothing of what they are doing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EwolxNavi

The gods have not been shy about dealing with crisis in the past. They sealed up magic when it threatened to sunder the world, stopped the wanton annihilation of human souls, went to war to keep their brother from filling Tyria with demons... The gods do intervene in matters that require their attention, and they intervene directly.

They have not intervened since the Exodus, and the last time they did so turned the Crystal Sea into the Crystal Desert and turned the coastal area in to a poisonous wasteland (The Desolation). If you were to create that area due to your "intervention" - specifically using your godly powers to defeat another god - would you ever want to fight Menzies, Dhuum, or Abaddon again and do the same - or worse - damage?

I think that the events of the Exodus opened the gods eyes and they were all going "Oh shit, our powers can do that much damage?" And they began to fear their powers and thus left to never intervene, in fear of exterminating life or the like.

That seems far more likely than "the gods can no longer intervene."

Quote:

Originally Posted by EwolxNavi

The only thing they have proven incapable of so far is actually killing another god.

This may not be entirely correct. And when bringing up Dhuum, his case may be a special case as he was the God of Death, and thus may know how to prevent his own death. Just as a lich cannot be killed without special means, Dhuum might have done something to himself so that he cannot be killed without a special means, and Grenth doesn't know that special means.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Darkblight

By that i meant the game lore and game is susceptible to changes and expansion. It's not carved in stone. They could add 5 more gods (or take down) if they want and 5 elder gods, and 5 more lesser gods and moar dragons etc etc.

That has no connection to how you responded, which gave the context of "it's a game, it doesn't matter" - seeing how you responded to a person asking about the background. Especially with the following part which is "That part of the lore is blank and will probably stay that way."

Chthon · Dec 25, 2009, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

And Menzies isn't a god (a common misconception), only Balthazar is.

Other than the title "god" (which I'm sure his followers bestow upon him), can you name a trait that Menzies lacks while the 5 (or 6) gods have it? He seems to me to possess every trait we've seen that sets them apart from normal humans.

Quote:

Do you see the gods in the Underworld or Fissure of Woe? I don't. Why can't they be in another realm, too far to directly influence the war...

Something like that seems an OK explanation to me. My point wasn't that the lore is faulty here, but rather that Dwayna et al are very weak "gods" -- too weak to be the creator gods. It doesn't make sense that they have such great power they can create a world (or several of them), and yet lack the power (even at a distance and even while concentrating 99.9% on other matters) to kill off a couple dozen dryders.

Quote:

From what I read, the only thing that is "dangerous"...

Quote:

The tale about the gods creating Tyria is most likely a lie.

When I said the same thing (in almost the same phrasing even) 2 years ago, I was called "dangerous" (in absolute dead seriousness) and worse. The reactions were so extreme that I felt completely unwelcome in the lore forums and have very rarely ventured back. I find it ironic that today you can dismiss as obvious and passe the same idea that got me branded as a heretic back then.

Gmr Leon · Dec 26, 2009, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

This cannot be the case due to Abaddon's scripture being dated at 1 BE and that is when he gave magic, not ascended. Also, if Melandru is said to have helped in the creation of the world, how could she be obviously younger than the world? That just doesn't add up and is an illogical belief. The only one which could pass is Grenth but that is still iffy.

As I said, only if the dates are of the Gods' ascension. Obviously this is not entirely the case, but, it is to say the least, the earliest known account of each Gods' involvement in the world observed by humanity. My comment was based simply on the speculation that the Scriptures were in line with the date of the ascension of the Gods, but it does not reflect my own take on it, as I imagine you may be well aware, although my wording does suggest that it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

When I said the same thing (in almost the same phrasing even) 2 years ago, I was called "dangerous" (in absolute dead seriousness) and worse. The reactions were so extreme that I felt completely unwelcome in the lore forums and have very rarely ventured back. I find it ironic that today you can dismiss as obvious and passe the same idea that got me branded as a heretic back then.

I mentioned earlier that things have changed quite a bit, and what you observe is merely one such case of a change in the viewpoint of people. (Besides the fact that your argument was with GWO's lore community and not this one's.)

draxynnic · Dec 26, 2009, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Though to have a step-brother wouldn't really be children of the universe idea, as the GW version of that would be "children of the Mists" - I would assume - and unless this barely mentioned "the Void" would be the "other parent" of Menzies, that idea just wouldn't work here.

The relationship between Balthazar and Menzies is one I've pondered on a bit. One explanation is, of course, the obvious one - that they do in fact share a parent in a previous generation of divine beings (or non-divine beings, if they were born as mortals and ascended). Another, however, is that the "parent" they shared could have been nonsapient - a vortex in the Mists that coalesced into the two gods like binary star system forms from a nebula, for instance, with one or both having been mixed with some other essence to explain why their siblinghood is only partial. Finally, their brotherhood could be purely allegorical - they could be regarded as brother gods because of their similarities, but unlike Lyssa, their siblinghood is only partial due to their differences.

(And that's without going into theories that Menzies is actually Balthazar's dark side and "half-brother" is just the cover for dealing with mortals...)

Thalador Doomspeaker · Dec 26, 2009, 10:18 AM // 10:18

Ah, the legendary Chthon! I was waiting for this moment for a long time now...

You see, I'm one of those who still say that the History of Tyria is the "brutally canonized version of the truth", thus I'm something similar to an "apprentice".

Although, many new informations have arrived, such as these:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Grubb

Dragons are power, and the facets reflect the nature of the power that the human gods have harnessed. Both the Asuran Central Transfer Chamber and the City of Arah were built on places of power, which turned out to be directly over Elder Dragons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Grubb

The full story of the origin of the humans has yet to be revealed. They arrived in the Tyria (the continent) sometime after they first appeared on Tyria (the world). It seems, from their previous appearances, that they have come up from the south, so the “human homeland” may be further south than Elona and Cantha. The idea of human gods “creating” Tyria is viewed by other races with mixed reactions. The charr think of it as theological propaganda (and that the human gods are not true gods, only more powerful, once-mortal, beings). The asura are perfectly willing to accept the idea of gods as (rather large) gears in the Eternal Alchemy. Norn are perfectly willing to allow the idea of gods, but think of them as a different type of their own animal spirits. The sylvari consider them unproven, since the gods have not shown their presence directly to the sylvari.

Which strongly implies - in my opinion - that the so called "gods" were mortals who harnessed/collected too much power from the Elder Dragons.

And Jeff puts the word 'creating' in quotation marks in the second dialogue, so... I think the Charr are right with the thought that it's a "theological propaganda".

ADDENDUM: Really interesting ideas, drax. Though, if Menzies is the dark side of Balthazar, how did the "god of war and fire" remove his corrupted part?

Gmr Leon · Dec 26, 2009, 10:43 AM // 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

The bolded cannot be claimed as we know this to be inaccurate. Demons and "Nightmares" (whatever those things are in reality, excluding the "spirit nightmares" - which includes Azures and Vaettirs) at least exist elsewhere as flesh and blood.

Well, I'm not exactly sure I'd say they're all flesh and blood elsewhere. The Nightmares seem a bit ethereal, for instance, and Demons form from the Mists, so they may not be made up of flesh and blood as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Though to have a step-brother wouldn't really be children of the universe idea, as the GW version of that would be "children of the Mists" - I would assume - and unless this barely mentioned "the Void" would be the "other parent" of Menzies, that idea just wouldn't work here.

Would be interesting if the Void somehow spawned anti-Gods to the existing Gods somehow..However, with it being consistently referred to in the final-end-end-of-all sort of manner, it doesn't seem like it would spawn much of anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

What prescendent? I know of no such thing. It is simply that the gods let us solve their problems, and we know nothing of what they are doing.

They have not intervened since the Exodus, and the last time they did so turned the Crystal Sea into the Crystal Desert and turned the coastal area in to a poisonous wasteland (The Desolation). If you were to create that area due to your "intervention" - specifically using your godly powers to defeat another god - would you ever want to fight Menzies, Dhuum, or Abaddon again and do the same - or worse - damage?

I think that the events of the Exodus opened the gods eyes and they were all going "Oh shit, our powers can do that much damage?" And they began to fear their powers and thus left to never intervene, in fear of exterminating life or the like.

That seems far more likely than "the gods can no longer intervene."

Although the whole merging with the Mists to safeguard their power seems another likely possibility, which would just give them a very lessened ability to intervene, which is what appears to be the case. The major issue is that there are almost too many possibilities with the Gods and their activity, or lack thereof, on Tyria.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

This may not be entirely correct. And when bringing up Dhuum, his case may be a special case as he was the God of Death, and thus may know how to prevent his own death. Just as a lich cannot be killed without special means, Dhuum might have done something to himself so that he cannot be killed without a special means, and Grenth doesn't know that special means.

And again I'll just mention that's only if your research is correct on liches, and that the two out of three cases are not exceptions to the rule, and are in fact the rule itself.

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Ah, the legendary Chthon! I was waiting for this moment for a long time now...

You do realize he's just the eldest, right? That is, among my group of lore-goers, he was here even before I was, or at least, active in a more coherent and intelligent manner than I was. Before him there were others, but we could all be grouped together in the "Elder" Lore-goers, that is, those others, he and I. Speaking of, Chthon, isn't it a shame we never got an in-game photo with all of us together?

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Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

ADDENDUM: Really interesting ideas, drax. Though, if Menzies is the dark side of Balthazar, how did the "god of war and fire" remove his corrupted part?

It depends on the speculation being discussed. On one hand, some speculate that Balthazar never separated his corrupted part, and just has a case of dual-personalities in which some moments he's Balthazar, the next he's Menzies. The other bits of speculation are normal in comparison, from what I recall.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 26, 2009, 11:45 AM // 11:45

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Originally Posted by Chthon

Other than the title "god" (which I'm sure his followers bestow upon him), can you name a trait that Menzies lacks while the 5 (or 6) gods have it? He seems to me to possess every trait we've seen that sets them apart from normal humans.

What trait does he have in common with the gods? Just having followers. That is it. What traits do we know Menzies has? A genetic link to a god, followers, and a hatred of (or wish to overthrow) Balthazar, a link to destruction and darkness.

Traits of the gods? Creation and manipulation of things (though the creation is only in stories and not seen in person), unaging (or no death by age - if not just an extremely long life), a link to two concepts of life, and followers.

What do they have in common? A link to two concepts of life and followers. That is the only connections between the two. We don't know the origin of the Shadow Army, so we cannot say they were created or transformed by Menzies. We don't know the age of Menzies (or even if he is alive and not a spirit), so we cannot say he has the aging quality of the gods.

And you don't even need to be a god to have followers or create simple things - the Ice King Frozenwind does this and is surely not a god. Thorn does this, and last time I checked, he isn't a god.

There is no real similarity.

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Originally Posted by Chthon

My point wasn't that the lore is faulty here, but rather that Dwayna et al are very weak "gods" -- too weak to be the creator gods. It doesn't make sense that they have such great power they can create a world (or several of them), and yet lack the power (even at a distance and even while concentrating 99.9% on other matters) to kill off a couple dozen dryders.

Simple humans transform things into other things through the use of magic. To create worlds doesn't seem to take that much power that you'd be able to easily defeat other gods or god-like threats - even if they are weak - from a vaste difference. Let alone know of the threats.

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Originally Posted by Chthon

When I said the same thing (in almost the same phrasing even) 2 years ago, I was called "dangerous" (in absolute dead seriousness) and worse. The reactions were so extreme that I felt completely unwelcome in the lore forums and have very rarely ventured back. I find it ironic that today you can dismiss as obvious and passe the same idea that got me branded as a heretic back then.

Back then I don't think Bahltek was out and about, he was possibly the main thing which sparked the anti-god theme in the lore forum, along with your works. Besides, being a heretic is fun (and Quintus' rule of Mursaat Love is over >.>).

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Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Really interesting ideas, drax. Though, if Menzies is the dark side of Balthazar, how did the "god of war and fire" remove his corrupted part?

This was my idea originally (as far as I know, that is, it wasn't stated previously on Guru and I haven't seen it on GWO - if someone knows of someone who brought it up in the same light as me first, then it isn't my idea originally

). It can be found in full here, but the one worded explanation is this: Schizophrenia.

In other words, there was no removal and the reason why Menzies doesn't have a depiction on what is believed to be his banner, why we never see Menzies, and why Saidon states that war is eternal in the Fissure of Woe.

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Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

Well, I'm not exactly sure I'd say they're all flesh and blood elsewhere. The Nightmares seem a bit ethereal, for instance, and Demons form from the Mists, so they may not be made up of flesh and blood as well.

Regarding the Nightmares that "seem a bit ethereal" - I stated that what you quoted excludes the spirit nightmares, which are the ethereal nightmares (I doubt you'd say an Aatxes, Coldfire Night, or Stalking Night is ethereal). As for the Demons, everything suggests they are beings with souls - they don't need to be flesh and blood, they just need to be bodies which have souls to go somewhere (which would be an afterlife).

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Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

And again I'll just mention that's only if your research is correct on liches, and that the two out of three cases are not exceptions to the rule, and are in fact the rule itself.

It doesn't matter how the liches retain their life, which is what my research is about, but the fact that liches do is enough for that statement. And it would be three cases - one directly influenced by Khilbron, who is most likely to have gained powers from the "unholy trinity" - thus Dhuum might know of the same, or similar, magic.

It in fact has nothing to do with my research on undead, but the facts that I used for the researching.

Gmr Leon · Dec 26, 2009, 02:43 PM // 14:43

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Regarding the Nightmares that "seem a bit ethereal" - I stated that what you quoted excludes the spirit nightmares, which are the ethereal nightmares (I doubt you'd say an Aatxes, Coldfire Night, or Stalking Night is ethereal). As for the Demons, everything suggests they are beings with souls - they don't need to be flesh and blood, they just need to be bodies which have souls to go somewhere (which would be an afterlife).

Yeah, that part was a misunderstanding, I didn't realize all of those other specimens were classified as "Nightmares." As to Demons, either way, there is a difference between flesh and blood that should be maintained, I think.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

It doesn't matter how the liches retain their life, which is what my research is about, but the fact that liches do is enough for that statement. And it would be three cases - one directly influenced by Khilbron, who is most likely to have gained powers from the "unholy trinity" - thus Dhuum might know of the same, or similar, magic.

It in fact has nothing to do with my research on undead, but the facts that I used for the researching.

...Three? Which one is influenced by Khilbron? Or do you mean influenced in the sense that he knowingly transformed himself? Last I checked, we had three cases, Zoldark, Palawa Joko, and Vizier Khilbron. All, as far as we can tell, disconnected except by their status of being a lich. Two of which have to be killed in a particular manner to completely kill them, whereas one does not.

This one specimen means that there cannot be a definitive or certain assertion that all liches must be killed by special means. That's my argument in this particular scenario, and is essentially the same as my argument in regards to the Cauldron of Cataclysm's origin. Just because all evidence points to a certain conclusion does not mean that it must be that conclusion.

What you consider your research is not of interest to me at this time, what is of interest to me is the assertion of all liches requiring a certain method of being killed to be completely killed.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 26, 2009, 05:18 PM // 17:18

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Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

As to Demons, either way, there is a difference between flesh and blood that should be maintained, I think.

Though the point was less of "flesh and blood" (which was more of a "lack of a better term" situation) and "life that isn't on Tyria" - which demons and "living Nightmares" are.

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Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

...Three? Which one is influenced by Khilbron? Or do you mean influenced in the sense that he knowingly transformed himself? Last I checked, we had three cases, Zoldark, Palawa Joko, and Vizier Khilbron. All, as far as we can tell, disconnected except by their status of being a lich. Two of which have to be killed in a particular manner to completely kill them, whereas one does not.

This one specimen means that there cannot be a definitive or certain assertion that all liches must be killed by special means. That's my argument in this particular scenario, and is essentially the same as my argument in regards to the Cauldron of Cataclysm's origin. Just because all evidence points to a certain conclusion does not mean that it must be that conclusion.

What you consider your research is not of interest to me at this time, what is of interest to me is the assertion of all liches requiring a certain method of being killed to be completely killed.

The Hunter, according to the Apostate is unkillable, and according to Keeper Kauniss was made so by Khilbron. As I've brought up before on GW2G when we were discussing undead, I believe. But note: The Hunter is not a lich, instead, he holds the same power which separates a lich from the other undead - the closest known thing to immortality which the only known way to counteract is killing the being on top of a bloodstone linked to soul batteries.

Neither my research nor my views are not of interest in this topic in any way, when I said "just as a lich must be killed a certain way" I meant the "immortal liches" (or what I called "true liches" - which are Khilbron and Joko). And that the same or similar magic was used by Dhuum on himself (just like the case of The Hunter). Whether all real liches (and not just undead controlling other undead, which Zoldark might be) need to be killed in a special case is 100% irrelevant and I have no clue why you're bringing this up.

Gmr Leon · Dec 26, 2009, 06:05 PM // 18:05

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Though the point was less of "flesh and blood" (which was more of a "lack of a better term" situation) and "life that isn't on Tyria" - which demons and "living Nightmares" are.

Which is understood on my part, but anyone else (is anyone out there?) reading may have taken it to be exactly that. There isn't precisely a better term for it, though, you're right.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Neither my research nor my views are not of interest in this topic in any way, when I said "just as a lich must be killed a certain way" I meant the "immortal liches" (or what I called "true liches" - which are Khilbron and Joko). And that the same or similar magic was used by Dhuum on himself (just like the case of The Hunter).

Whether all real liches (and not just undead controlling other undead, which Zoldark might be) need to be killed in a special case is 100% irrelevant and I have no clue why you're bringing this up.

To maintain the discrepancy between the two specimens, which in the way you phrased it did not exist unless you keep up with these discussions as we do. It's a fault of language as a whole, generally, as the more you discuss a matter on a certain topic or with a certain person, you become distant to the base, that is, the casual or random person visiting or reading these topics. That is why I'm bringing it up. Also, as far as I recall, you hadn't brought up the point of the Hunter in our other discussions.

draxynnic · Dec 27, 2009, 03:11 AM // 03:11

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Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

It depends on the speculation being discussed. On one hand, some speculate that Balthazar never separated his corrupted part, and just has a case of dual-personalities in which some moments he's Balthazar, the next he's Menzies. The other bits of speculation are normal in comparison, from what I recall.

Indeed. Another is that Menzies is simply an avatar into which Balthazar confined his darker impulses, or that Menzies was a powerful servant of Balthazar whom Balthazar commanded to become a rival because the god of war must have conflict.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Simple humans transform things into other things through the use of magic. To create worlds doesn't seem to take that much power that you'd be able to easily defeat other gods or god-like threats - even if they are weak - from a vaste difference. Let alone know of the threats.

This is true - and also that we don't know how long the creation/terraforming took. A long, leisurely, unopposed transformation probably requires much less strength than defeating an antagonistic entity with close to your own level of power, even if the end result may seem more impressive.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

...Three? Which one is influenced by Khilbron? Or do you mean influenced in the sense that he knowingly transformed himself? Last I checked, we had three cases, Zoldark, Palawa Joko, and Vizier Khilbron. All, as far as we can tell, disconnected except by their status of being a lich. Two of which have to be killed in a particular manner to completely kill them, whereas one does not.

Do we know for sure that Zoldark has been permanently destroyed and not, say, put in a two hundred and fifty year slumber?

Gmr Leon · Dec 27, 2009, 05:53 PM // 17:53

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Originally Posted by Draxynnic

Do we know for sure that Zoldark has been permanently destroyed and not, say, put in a two hundred and fifty year slumber?

Do we know that any Undead being we've "killed" is completely dead? This same argument could also humorously apply to any of the Gods and their predecessors, given what we've seen.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 27, 2009, 10:14 PM // 22:14

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Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

Do we know that any Undead being we've "killed" is completely dead?

Based on quite a few comments, such as this:

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Originally Posted by Ghostly Scount;The Desolation

Through the darkness of my soul's torment, I find myself rooted here. Will the terrible dreams of Turai Ossa never leave me? Perhaps if Grenth would finally accept those I once called friends, I too could journey onward. Destroy the awakened undead and return the souls of my companions to Grenth at last. He will surely bless such a dead.

The death of undead implies that the souls are "set free" and "move on" to the afterlife.

However, Zoldark is neither said nor implied dead for good - nor to not be so. In fact, the only undead/dead in EN which is implied to not be dead for good is Murakai in the storybook:

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Originally Posted by Master Dungeon Guide

Once freed, Pyre's warband sacked the cathedral, looking for anything of value. in their search, they unearthed a blocked passage. Clearing the debris revealed a stash of treasure plundered from Ascalonian ruins... but there was more. The spirits of those slain for the war had attached themselves to the treasure, haunting the vaults. Worse yet, a powerful Necromancer named Murakai dwelt among them. She used the creatures' unliving essence to create a storm of souls, which she planned to unleash upon human and Charr alike. It fell to us to lay these disembodied spirits to rest and to suspend Murakai's wrath, if only for a time.

draxynnic · Dec 28, 2009, 05:39 AM // 05:39

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Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

Do we know that any Undead being we've "killed" is completely dead? This same argument could also humorously apply to any of the Gods and their predecessors, given what we've seen.

...and it has been, I believe, and not purely out of silliness.

EwolxNavi · Dec 28, 2009, 04:40 PM // 16:40

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

What prescendent? I know of no such thing. It is simply that the gods let us solve their problems, and we know nothing of what they are doing.

They have not intervened since the Exodus, and the last time they did so turned the Crystal Sea into the Crystal Desert and turned the coastal area in to a poisonous wasteland (The Desolation). If you were to create that area due to your "intervention" - specifically using your godly powers to defeat another god - would you ever want to fight Menzies, Dhuum, or Abaddon again and do the same - or worse - damage?

I think that the events of the Exodus opened the gods eyes and they were all going "Oh shit, our powers can do that much damage?" And they began to fear their powers and thus left to never intervene, in fear of exterminating life or the like.

That seems far more likely than "the gods can no longer intervene."

Far be it for me to argue with the loremasters, but I see one problem with that.

Granted, the precedents for godly intervention are pre-Exodus, and it may very well be that because they retreated they don't intervene quite as directly anymore. However I see no reason why the Crystal Desert fiasco should be the reason that prevents their action. The Fissure of Woe, the Underworld and the Realm of Torment are all in the Mists. None of these areas exist on Tyria proper, and none of these areas contain living (truly living) inhabitants. Therefore, even if a godly war should result in another swath of desolation, it would make absolutely no difference. These realms are already desolate, and risk of collateral damage is minimal (or insignificant, as it would be in RoT). So long as the war didn't spill into the mortal world, the benefit of being rid of these evils (that are the source of many problems in Tyria) should outweigh the potential risks, unless there is something I've missed.

Now the problem in my argument arises from the fact that Menzies, Dhuum and Abaddon all inhabit(ed) these Mists areas. This "evil" trinity ought to have required direct godly attention (especially Abaddon). The other threats (Shiro, Khilbron, the Charr etc.) seem to be mortal problems that mortals ought to be capable of dealing with. Therefore, without other examples (post-Exodus ones) that required divine action, I cannot conclusively say that these three are the only areas in which godly intervention is stymied. What I can conclude is that, according to Lyssa's Muse, the gods could not destroy Abaddon post-Exodus. There's more I could say about that, but this is becoming lengthy as it is.

At any rate, I'm not saying "the gods can no longer intervene". All I'm saying is that it seems that one god cannot kill another. That is the choice that only a mortal can make.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 28, 2009, 04:56 PM // 16:56

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Originally Posted by EwolxNavi

Far be it for me to argue with the loremasters

Please do, well not argue, but debate.

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Originally Posted by EwolxNavi

However I see no reason why the Crystal Desert fiasco should be the reason that prevents their action. The Fissure of Woe, the Underworld and the Realm of Torment are all in the Mists. None of these areas exist on Tyria proper, and none of these areas contain living (truly living) inhabitants.

Hmmm, so Aatxes, Hydras, Skales, Wurms, Dryders, Stalkers, and the like are not living? I find that hard to believe.

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Originally Posted by EwolxNavi

Therefore, even if a godly war should result in another swath of desolation, it would make absolutely no difference. These realms are already desolate, and risk of collateral damage is minimal (or insignificant, as it would be in RoT).

I think the destruction of the souls is a far more morally destructive act. And I wouldn't call those realms desolate - sure, they may not be the prettiest things (except for say, the Hall of Heroes) - but they still have life and the souls of the dead. And doing what would seem to be the destruction of one's existence (the soul) would be far worse than just killing a body and releasing the spirit.

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Originally Posted by EwolxNavi

At any rate, I'm not saying "the gods can no longer intervene". All I'm saying is that it seems that one god cannot kill another. That is the choice that only a mortal can make.

Of course, Menzies isn't a god, but there is still the fact that we have no clue what they are doing. Perhaps Balthazar is battling Menzies in an extremely long battle to the death.