Curse

Mintha Syl · May 06, 2010, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Yesterday I was redoing the dragon's lair. Recalling this thread (especially Phoenix's words on Glint's envolvment) I read again and with more attention Glint's dialogue, and some things caught my eye (or my ear

)

Glint: "For years the Mursaat and their human disciples have hunted down the Chosen, murdering them to prevent the prophecies from coming to pass."

This makes me think she didn't know about the door at all (and the need of souls for the bloodstone), relating the kills only to the prophecy. Other way, if she was aware of the truth she was betraying us for some reason. Does it make any sense for you or am I speculating too much?

Also
Glint: "Seek the flame, for within it lies the power to destroy both good and evil."

Destroy both good and evil? Destroy the evil (the Mursaat) and the good (unleashing the Titans)? Or, it's got some other meaning, or it's just something "cool" put in the speech with no real meaning?

Konig Des Todes · May 06, 2010, 08:14 PM // 20:14

The Foundry of Failed Creations most likely is the flame, not the titans. That said, a foundry is used to forge, and the things it forges can be used for good or evil. So if someone other than Abaddon and the Fury had control over it, the titans wouldn't be made, but perhaps something... better.

But that is speculation. You're probably right on that the titans can destroy both good (common people+the heroes, etc.) and evil (mursaat).

Ariovist Lynxkind · May 07, 2010, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mintha Syl

Yesterday I was redoing the dragon's lair. Recalling this thread (especially Phoenix's words on Glint's envolvment) I read again and with more attention Glint's dialogue, and some things caught my eye (or my ear

)

Glint: "For years the Mursaat and their human disciples have hunted down the Chosen, murdering them to prevent the prophecies from coming to pass."

This makes me think she didn't know about the door at all (and the need of souls for the bloodstone), relating the kills only to the prophecy. Other way, if she was aware of the truth she was betraying us for some reason. Does it make any sense for you or am I speculating too much?

Also
Glint: "Seek the flame, for within it lies the power to destroy both good and evil."

Destroy both good and evil? Destroy the evil (the Mursaat) and the good (unleashing the Titans)? Or, it's got some other meaning, or it's just something "cool" put in the speech with no real meaning?

That in bold has always puzzled me. Who, before Saul, was helping the Mursaat. We know from Saul's Story that he didn't come across the Mursaat until during the invasion, and we know that invasion didn't happen until after the Searing, so it seems kinda odd. I know the present day Tyria is 2 years after the Searing (thus the plural) but the way it comes across is that the Mursaat have been doing it for a lot longer, and they must have had some human help before otherwise why would they need the Mantle?

Konig Des Todes · May 07, 2010, 08:28 PM // 20:28

2 years is still "for years" so it isn't incorrect in any ways. But assuming if there were humans helping the mursaat before Saul (which I highly doubt, to be honest, given the mursaat's nature), given that there is no major group known, that would be why the mursaat wanted the White Mantle. They may have intended Saul to just be a leader of a small-time group aiding the mursaat if there were humans before him aiding them (thus, they would have 2 small-time groups, which is more helpful), but when the White Mantle became huge, even more reason to have them.

Mintha Syl · May 07, 2010, 09:14 PM // 21:14

The more I read the more I understand how much lore I don't know. So I always feel shy in posting here. So forgive me in advance if I often write non-sense.
It's true only 2 years passed from the Searing when we reach post-searing Ascalon but...how much time does the campaign's storyarc take? I was trying to find a nice time table I had seen on the wiki but I can't seem to find it anymore. Anyway I don't think it's taken years (but maybe some decent time to sum). So the Mantle has been helping the Mursaat for quite a long time and "for years" is not so wrong.
The only other group I could think about, who could be the past Mursaat followers, are kryta noble family and their guards, but this would make no sense both because word would have spread between population and even more cause they fleed the charr invasion, meaning they sure didn't have a strong "ally" .
Yeah, just a meaningless speech, I know.

Ariovist Lynxkind · May 07, 2010, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

2 years is still "for years" so it isn't incorrect in any ways.

I actually said that, just in different words, but as I said after, at least to me through the game and other official texts it comes across as though the Mursaat have been doing it a lot longer than 2 years* and with the amount of chosen sacrificed it seems like picking one or two people here and there causing mysterious disappearances wouldn't cut it.

*We know Glint made the prophecies 800 years before present-day Tyria, but it is unknown a) When the Mursaat found out, and b) when the volcano spat the Bloodstones out. On the flip-side though, we do know that the Charr discovered the Titans 202 years before present-day, so if the Mursaat didnt know anything before then I would hazard a guess they would have not long after since the Titans didn't exactly over-run the world straight away.

Best guess from me: the Searing was caused by a small lull between the Mursaat's last group and them finding Saul, since we know the Titans gave the Charr the power to cause the Searing, but you would have thought that they would have used it before then if they could. The Great Northern Wall was erected 28 years after the Titans were found, so I doubt the Titans would have wasted another 74 years to take out the humans if they didn't want to.

I do have a theory with the other groups, though, and that is the Abaddon theory: IE: this has happened before, the Mursaat and their human group have been found out and once dealt with have been erased from history

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mintha Syl

It's true only 2 years passed from the Searing when we reach post-searing Ascalon but...how much time does the campaign's storyarc take? I was trying to find a nice time table I had seen on the wiki but I can't seem to find it anymore. Anyway I don't think it's taken years (but maybe some decent time to sum).

My theory on this: 6 months, maybe a couple more and Factions took a bit less. Or on the other hand, it took us 4-6 months to get from Lion's Arch to the Crystal Desert, allowing for the time for Factions and Mhenlo's absence from Tyria. That is just my rough guess given that Prophecies and Factions happen within the same year and takes into account either just Mhenlo going or your Tyrian hero going as well to Cantha

draxynnic · May 22, 2010, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Denfer

Glint I don't believe ever meant for us to unlock the door. I think the prophesy was to keep the door locked and defeat the "flame-seeker" before he did unleash the titans. She sends us off to clean up the mess afterward as it was not her intent to see humanity destroyed after finally getting us there to save it!

Myself, I think she was the only one who knew exactly what she was doing - arranging so that the Titans would be released long enough to devastate the Mursaat, but not long enough to cause any serious further damage.

Regarding the Mursaat: Angelicising the Mursaat really requires going into their motives for keeping the Door closed. If the Mursaat really saw themselves as the guardians of the world, that would be one thing, but if it was just self-preservation, that's something different. To me, the evidence suggests that the Mursaat were at least on the shady side of neutral, although we don't know the full story. Either way, however, just because someone is fighting evil does not mean they are good themselves - evil can fight evil too (look at Joko and Abaddon)

Mind you, the real issue with the Mursaat was that it became a self-fulfilling prophecy - if it wasn't for the sacrifices of the Chosen, there probably wouldn't have been such a concerted attack on them to begin with.

Mintha Syl · Jun 04, 2010, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Sorry if I revive this topic but I'm having a few more doubts regarding the mursaats, now that with WiK we're starting to have some additional lore on them.
So, it looks like there's still some left around, still allied with the mantles and even bringing to life new constructs. Now I wonder, being the door of komalie no longer to be guarded, why do they still need the white mantle? What benefits could they have? Some protection now that they're so vulnerable? Or there is maybe something greater behind this all? What do you think?

Konig Des Todes · Jun 04, 2010, 11:07 PM // 23:07

I'm starting to think it could be one of two things:

1) The "master plan" that was mentioned to Saul was not in relation to the Door of Komalie and they need the WM for something else.

2) The mursaat don't give a rat's arse for the WM and are using them as puppets for their revenge against those who harmed them, and Lazarus (thus humanity and asura; though less so asura) - via this, I would say that the "mysterious stranger" is a mursaat as well and attempted to cause mishap between the races and perhaps within the asura (though they didn't know that the asura were as egotistical as they are). This I discussed over on GW2G here and the following few posts.

Mintha Syl · Jun 06, 2010, 02:45 PM // 14:45

As the first time the link took me to page 1 of the thread I did so much reading...it's really a pity so many interesting discussions that still concern what's going on in gw1 are mostly talking place in the gw2 forums while here people is more interested with the rewards than the lore.
That said, I believe both your theories could prove true, and not even mutually exclusive.
As for Lazarus, he was maybe high in rank enough to be the safety plan, but probably not alone. We know of him cause we had the chance to trip into Naveed, but I wouldn't be so surprised if many Mursaats were saved in the same way.

Xenomortis · Jun 06, 2010, 03:17 PM // 15:17

The Mursaat appear to completely disregard other races - holding them in contempt and viewing them as strictly inferior.
Not much is known about them, but they seem completely amoral (at least regarding others) and thus are not actually evil.
They did what they thought necessary for the survival of their society.
Of course their methods seemed to conflict with the well-being of Krytans but it was the Mursaat that saved Kryta from the Charr in the first place.

Good and Evil are not good terms to look at these things - they're completely subjective and yet people try to think they're absolute.
However since the Mursaat disregard and are very willing to move against humans you can safely view them as antagonists.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 06, 2010, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Good and Evil on a large scale is subjective, but to the individual they are absolute. It will be rare for a person to change his views on what good and evil are, though their opinion on who is good and evil can always change.

Xenomortis · Jun 06, 2010, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Good and Evil on a large scale is subjective, but to the individual they are absolute. It will be rare for a person to change his views on what good and evil are, though their opinion on who is good and evil can always change.

A person's personal views are by definition subjective.
On a larger scales, the concept of good and evil becomes less and less meaningful and can only be set relative to the opinions and best interests of a collective (i.e. society).

Lakdav · Jun 11, 2010, 08:38 AM // 08:38

I just love how abstract the theory on good/evil can be, and i also like to take a group (real or imagined) and fit them in all the classic D&D alignments. I know much of the following may be stupid, but without stupidity there would be no idea of good and evil.

Lets just see the Mursaat

Lawful good: They want to rule the lesser races in a strict hierarchy, and also protect them (and themselves) from the destructive titans. It may be a stretch, but i was thinking if the Mursaat were not the creations of the gods of Tyria, they might have moved here from somewhere. If i would be able to travel through planes and i would fear a prophecy, i would move to another plane not affected by this prophecy. So they are either local to tyra just not mentioned, or they want to protect tyria as well as themselves.

Lawful neutral: My favorite for the mursaat. They are beyond good and evil, but they have to keep order around for they are not so numerous. They did a lot good, protecting kryta, giving new laws (before the flameseeker prophecies not so outrageus laws like the travel permit now), werent afraid to do evil when necessary. It has not much to do with justice (the killing of the innocent chosen), but it comes down to the question:if you would have the chance to eliminate a future mortal threat, would you hesitate? True, the chosen were pawns, but the only reachable killable part of the prophecies.

Lawful evil: OBEY! If we want to take away all the good they did and say they did it for their own well-being, we get the tyrant evil-doers the WM is now. But thats the WM, not the Mursaat. Still we dont know the relationship between Confessor Isaiah and the surviving mursaat (still gods and worshippers, or just much-needed allies).

Neutral good: If we want to say that the injustice of killing innocent chosen neutralises the lawful nature of the world-saving mursaat we get neutral good.

True neutral: Balance in everything, "do what must be done, let no morality stop us. The needed opposite to the true destruction from beyond the door. A force strong enough to battle the coming of the prophecy. Nothing else matters."

Neutral evil: "Laws are needed, but the bending of the rules is necessary as well, as long as we are not cought during the act (killing chosen), to ultimatley save our own hides. We dont care if we accidently save others as well, we just want to save ourselves."

Chaotic good: Thats a hard one. In D&D, this is the rebel (SB), the freedom fighter, the Robin Hood. As for the mursaat: "when we give laws and act nothing like it, its (the worst kind of) chaos. But we still like this world, and would not like to see it burned and dragged to torment. Oh well..."

Chaotic neutral: A little madness. Maybe born out of desperation. "We have 2 years to stop the thousand years old prophecy, what the hell should we do? Raise an army, get every one of our sorcerers to the door, kill every last chosen, just do it!" The easiest way to make a self-fulfilling prophecy to come true.

Chaotic evil: "Make them suffer, Spectral agony for everyone...We saved their hides from the charr (as distasteful as we did) and they have the nerve to rebel? Live nobody alive, just to make an example for the new world that we will create."