Curse

Dark Paladin X · May 29, 2010, 05:33 AM // 05:33

WARNING: A LOT of spoilers here, do NOT read if you haven't finished Prophecies or Eye of the North

Okay, this is highly improbable since the War in Kryta thing is strictly limited in Kryta only, but it is related to the Tyria continent. I want you guys to think through this concept: "The enemy of my enemy is my friend," the idea that former enemies must work together to fight a larger enemy who poses a greater threat.

Now, you guys know that Charr are enemies to the White Mantle and the Ebon Vanguard/Ascalonian. The Charr were enemies to the White Mantle because the Charr invaded Kryta and eventually got their asses whooped by the White Mantle (where Saul D'Alessio led the White Mantle to defend Kryta and came into power). Same reason why the Ebon Vanguard/Ascalon are enemies with the Charr.

However, the Ebon Vanguard have recently allied with the Shining Blade, a rebel group who seeks to overthrow the White Mantle. This, along with the fact that your character killed Justiciar Hablion and Confessor Dorian (the character is assumed to be Ascalonian in the Prophecies campaign even if your character is Canthan or Elonian), makes the White Mantle think that the Ascalonians betray them (since Ebon Vanguard happens to be affiliated with Ascalon). There is kinda evident in the Inquisitor Lashona bounty quest where Lashona was sent to the Ascalonian Settlement in North Kryta Province to kill every resident in the settlement. This kind of action would kinda provoke Ascalon into declaring war on the White Mantle (or the White Mantle has already declared war on Ascalon). So Ascalon is kinda not only fighting the Charr, but also the White Mantle as well. In this case, it is inevitable for the Charr to get involved in the War in Kryta stuff.

So, if the Charr gets involved in the War in Kryta, would they ally with the White Mantle or the Ebon Vanguard/Ascalon.

I think the Charr would most likely would ally with the White Mantle for a few reasons. First of all, the Charr fought the White Mantle only birefly, but they have been fighting the Ascalonians for years. Second, the Charr and the White Mantle would have forgotten that they were enemies in the first place (although the Krytan citizens themselves may be quite aware why the White Mantle came into power in the first place). Third, both the Charr and the White Mantle don't follow the six gods of Tyria. The White Mantle follow the Unseen Ones (the Murasaat) while the Charr followed the titans (later Destroyers, and they may eventually follow the Unseen Ones before having their asses handed to the heroes which would cause the ruling legion, the Flame Legion, to fall completely). So I think these are good reasons why the Charr would ally with the White Mantle.

Keep in mind that not all the Charr are in one page. Steve Blum Spike Spiegel Pyre Fireceshot and his warband are rebelling against the ruling folks of the Charr race (the Flame Legion).

Owik Gall · May 29, 2010, 07:38 AM // 07:38

It's slim because the Charr wouldn't care either way, from my view point. The charr DID worship a different god from the five gods, but that is ending since Pyre and his war band convinced others to rebel against the god worshipers and not follow a god anymore.

Secondly, the Charr, as I've seen so far, rarely take the time to make allies. In EotN, the rebelling Charr aid the fight against the destroyers because they WERE a threat to them. The White Mantle concern themselves only with Kryta, for the most part at least. Plus, the Charr has their own problems with their own civil war. It is unlikely they'll get help from any of the 'good' human armies, especially Ascalon, and it's not like the White Mantle will aid the Charrs rebellion since the White Mantle is all about obedience and order. Helping out a rebellion would go against mantle character, not to mention it has no benefit to the White Mantle if they are fighting with a band that refuses to worship ANY god, nevermind the Unseen ones.

The chances of involvement are worse than slim. It's a done deal 'not-gonna-happen' case since there aren't any valid motives for them to side with either. They are actually more for saving themselves. Alliances be damned as far as Charr philosophy goes.

Mintha Syl · May 29, 2010, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Paladin X

So, if the Charr gets involved in the War in Kryta, would they ally with the White Mantle or the Ebon Vanguard/Ascalon.

I think the Charr would most likely would ally with the White Mantle for a few reasons. First of all, the Charr fought the White Mantle only birefly, but they have been fighting the Ascalonians for years. Second, the Charr and the White Mantle would have forgotten that they were enemies in the first place (although the Krytan citizens themselves may be quite aware why the White Mantle came into power in the first place). Third, both the Charr and the White Mantle don't follow the six gods of Tyria. The White Mantle follow the Unseen Ones (the Murasaat) while the Charr followed the titans (later Destroyers, and they may eventually follow the Unseen Ones before having their asses handed to the heroes which would cause the ruling legion, the Flame Legion, to fall completely). So I think these are good reasons why the Charr would ally with the White Mantle.

Keep in mind that not all the Charr are in one page. Steve Blum Spike Spiegel Pyre Fireceshot and his warband are rebelling against the ruling folks of the Charr race (the Flame Legion).

Knowing the charr's mind asset, I would never think they would ally with humans (meat) and viceversa (beasts). Plus, as you stated, they whorship different deities. Having one enemy in common who follows an even different one IMHO would never be a reason enough for them to ally. And why would mantles help the charr to regain their lands if it's gonne turn in having them as neighborood and so a menace again? (and no more mursaats= no more defence from the charrs).

Bonehead · May 29, 2010, 09:39 AM // 09:39

Doubtful. The charr are more likely just to kick everybody's ass all at once rather than deal with politics.

tl;dr: what del said.

Shayne Hawke · May 29, 2010, 03:20 PM // 15:20

If the Charr had to get involved, it would more than likely be after both human groups have feuded to the point of exhaustion, at which point the Charr can just parade in with fresh troops and resources and demolish the place. Why ally with either side when you can just crush them both?

Lord Dagon · May 29, 2010, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

If the Charr had to get involved, it would more than likely be after both human groups have feuded to the point of exhaustion, at which point the Charr can just parade in with fresh troops and resources and demolish the place. Why ally with either side when you can just crush them both?

i agree w/ this. The charr mentality is kill first ask questions later. They have more of a mindset that allies come w/ their own rules and they have to cordinate and all that stuff the char jsut dont like. It would seem to me they would try to attack both, get hammered, and be forced into retreat/going to the point of exstinction(id like to bring the example of lukers from the "Jak" games trantioning from the first to the second one.)

The charr are preety headstrong when it comes to asking for help, so i doubt they'd ally just try to conqure and halfway succeded.(i think they would prefer to have a halfass conquer on their own then conquer a nation w/ the help of others.)

MithranArkanere · May 29, 2010, 05:27 PM // 17:27

If the charr were to get involved, we'll have a problem here.

We have the 'free charr' wich have no gods and will refuse them all, and the shaman, who want gods to control people.

Even when the mursaat where enemies with their old god, and even when the mursaat drove the charr away from kryta, those shaman would probably clutch at straws and go with the mursaat as their new gods.

So, if the mursaat where to participate, we'll probably have mursaat in both sides if King Adelbern doesn't participate.
He would NEVER ever join any side that also takes charr.

InfestedHydralisk · May 30, 2010, 02:45 AM // 02:45

The Charr would take advantage of it and kill everyone.
They don't like humans in general.

Konig Des Todes · May 30, 2010, 05:46 AM // 05:46

If any charr go to Kryta, it would most likely be under the orders of the Shaman caste (again). They are the only ones who have shown interest in fighting Kryta. But should they do, they won't ally with the White Mantle for two reasons:

1) They hate all other races (xenophobia

!), especially humans.
2) They fought the White Mantle and the mursaat before, and were decimated by them. If anything, they find the White Mantle a bigger threat than the Shining Blade. As such, they wouldn't ally with either side - the WM because they are a "bigger" threat and the SB because they allied with the Ebon Vanguard.

@Mithran: I don't think the Shaman caste would bother with the mursaat because thus far they have always gone with fire-based creatures. They'd be more likely to take Blisterbark (or whatever his name is) in the burning forest as a god before the mursaat.

Dark Paladin X · Jun 11, 2010, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

If any charr go to Kryta, it would most likely be under the orders of the Shaman caste (again). They are the only ones who have shown interest in fighting Kryta. But should they do, they won't ally with the White Mantle for two reasons:

1) They hate all other races (xenophobia

!), especially humans.
2) They fought the White Mantle and the mursaat before, and were decimated by them. If anything, they find the White Mantle a bigger threat than the Shining Blade. As such, they wouldn't ally with either side - the WM because they are a "bigger" threat and the SB because they allied with the Ebon Vanguard.

@Mithran: I don't think the Shaman caste would bother with the mursaat because thus far they have always gone with fire-based creatures. They'd be more likely to take Blisterbark (or whatever his name is) in the burning forest as a god before the mursaat.

However, the White Mantle stormed into the Ascalon Settlement at North Kryta Province and killed everyone there, which is clearly a declaration of war in the Ascalon perspective (although the White Mantle may argue that it is the Ascalonians who declared war on them first since the Ebon Vanguard is involved and allied with the Shining Blade). The Charr shaman caste might take the opportunity to ally with the White Mantle so that they can conquer all of Ascalon much easier. Besides, I'm pretty sure that White Mantle can convince the Charr shaman caste to ally with them and worship the Murasaat as their new gods just like how they convince a group of bandits to ally them them.

But eventually, the main Ascalon army and the Charr would get involved in the War in Kryta conflict.

Besides, I'm pretty sure both the Charr and the White Mantle have forgotten that they've fought each other in the first place (particularly the Charr since they spent most of their energy fighting Ascalon).

And by the way, if the Charr is so racist and xenophobic, then how do you explain the Asura, who are just as racist and xenophobic as the Charr (bookah)?

Del · Jun 11, 2010, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Paladin X

However, the White Mantle stormed into the Ascalon Settlement at North Kryta Province and killed everyone there, which is clearly a declaration of war in the Ascalon perspective (although the White Mantle may argue that it is the Ascalonians who declared war on them first since the Ebon Vanguard is involved and allied with the Shining Blade). The Charr shaman caste might take the opportunity to ally with the White Mantle so that they can conquer all of Ascalon much easier. Besides, I'm pretty sure that White Mantle can convince the Charr shaman caste to ally with them and worship the Murasaat as their new gods just like how they convince a group of bandits to ally them them.

But eventually, the main Ascalon army and the Charr would get involved in the War in Kryta conflict.

And by the way, if the Charr is so racist and xenophobic, then how do you explain the Asura, who are just as racist and xenophobic as the Charr (bookah)?

1: Charr would still just lay waste to ascalon while their forces are fighting with white mantle, no need to ally with the white mantle.
2: Asurans aren't xenophobic, just racist little pricks.
3: bumping a bad thread to post a fallacious argument is lulz.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 11, 2010, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Paladin X

However, the White Mantle stormed into the Ascalon Settlement at North Kryta Province and killed everyone there, which is clearly a declaration of war in the Ascalon perspective (although the White Mantle may argue that it is the Ascalonians who declared war on them first since the Ebon Vanguard is involved and allied with the Shining Blade). The Charr shaman caste might take the opportunity to ally with the White Mantle so that they can conquer all of Ascalon much easier. Besides, I'm pretty sure that White Mantle can convince the Charr shaman caste to ally with them and worship the Murasaat as their new gods just like how they convince a group of bandits to ally them them.

But eventually, the main Ascalon army and the Charr would get involved in the War in Kryta conflict.

Besides, I'm pretty sure both the Charr and the White Mantle have forgotten that they've fought each other in the first place (particularly the Charr since they spent most of their energy fighting Ascalon).

And by the way, if the Charr is so racist and xenophobic, then how do you explain the Asura, who are just as racist and xenophobic as the Charr (bookah)?

Beyond what Del said; the Shaman caste is the group that hates humanity - not the other charr. The non-Shaman caste have even allied with Ascalonians to take out the Shaman caste so it seems likely that the Shaman caste (which, if any charr are xenophobic, it is them) would not ally with humans while the other charr would ally with humans - but not to take out more humans but rather to purge the Shaman caste.

Secondly, the charr are not racist or xenophobic. They are a militaristic and combat drivin race. They refuse to "bow down" to the "supreme race" (which prior to the events of the Searing and Cataclysm, was easily the humans) and they view the need to dominate everything they can - fight those claiming to be stronger and rise higher. That isn't racism or xenophobia.

Again, the Shaman caste's gods have been fire based. The mursaat are not in any way. The Shaman caste's gods have been fire based because the main legion within the Shaman caste is the Flame Legion. And the charr seem to have some form of special interest in fire.

If any group of charr end up taking on new gods that already are out there, I'd assume they'd either take some powerful flame elemental as the god or Balthazar.

Del · Jun 11, 2010, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Again, the Shaman caste's gods have been fire based. The mursaat are not in any way. The Shaman caste's gods have been fire based because the main legion within the Shaman caste is the Flame Legion. And the charr seem to have some form of special interest in fire.

If any group of charr end up taking on new gods that already are out there, I'd assume they'd either take some powerful flame elemental as the god or Balthazar.

Fire= destruction, charr= destructive. Seems fairly simple to me.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 11, 2010, 05:23 AM // 05:23

Fire is also light and warmth, which are very much NOT charr. :P

Mintha Syl · Jun 11, 2010, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Paladin X

just like how they convince a group of bandits to ally them them.

Wrong. They did not "convince them to ally". They're mercenaries, they only work for money, not really an alliance. And Charrs are not mercenaries for sure.

Markus Clouser · Jul 21, 2010, 12:41 PM // 12:41

With some real history background everything is predictable to a an extent.
If the the charrs were smart, they would have tried to make damage to both sides so that they will get a slice of what's left, probably by being "ally" with both, make the mantles and shining blades fight as much as possible (and with as many casualties as possible) and then backstabbing them.

Sorry if resurrecting a 10-day old thread wasn't a good idea.

Mintha Syl · Jul 21, 2010, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Clouser

Sorry if resurrecting a 10-day old thread wasn't a good idea.

1 month and 10 days actually

Anyway, I don't think charrs could do something like double-game (or whatever it's called), it doesn't sound at all fitting in their mind assets/ethics

Konig Des Todes · Jul 21, 2010, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Agreed with Mintha - that just doesn't fit charr mentality. They'd pick the better "tool" and aid them, then fight their tool.

Aid the strongest and learn about them from the inside, then fight them.

As to the thread resurrecting - so long as it is on topic, it doesn't matter what threads you resurrect in the lore forum.