Curse

Piippo · Jul 20, 2010, 11:41 PM // 23:41

I've read a old thread concerning spirits and undead etc. and that made me wonder how resurrection works from a lore perspective.
Obviously, it's an important game mechanic, but does resurrection "exist" lore-wise? According to this story resurrection is an actual thing, even in lore, but the story doesn't exactly explain how it really works.

According to the beforementioned thread, when people die, their souls leave their mortal bodies and take a ghostly form. Then the ghosts are taken away by Envoys to the Underworld (I don't know if that information is "official" but I treat it as it would be). Now the question is, how does resurrection interfere with this process of bringing the soul to the Underworld? The "easy answer" would be that souls which still are in a ghostly form, are taken back to mortal life and put in a new body, or then the old, dead, body is restored (as the old body presumably is in bad shape, after the person has died).

However, the case with Shiro Tagachi is interesting. How come he had such a hard time getting himself back to life, while "normal" resurrection is so... well, easy? It might have to do with the fact that he was in spirit form. Altough he could do other, rather powerful interferences (did I spell that right?) with the mortal world. For example, killing us in the Vizunah Square final cinematic. Shiro clearly had to use some very poweful, secret magic to revive himself (he did look for tomes and texts about reviving himself, e.g. in Zen Daijun and the bookstore in Vizunah Square which Mhenlo kindly pointed out to us), which is in contrast with our easy-to-use resurrection skills and spells (Res signet for example).

I would appreciate comments and thoughts about this. The question of whether or not "common" resurrection (i.e. the spells and means we use to resurrect each other) is a part of the lore (clearly some kind of resurrection/reviving does exist, as Shiro shows us) has bothered me some time already.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 21, 2010, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Resurrection has many points in lore, but since it is so heavily involved in mechanics it is near impossible to tell where one ends and another begins (lore and mechanics that is).

Other cases of resurrection in lore:
The Dragon's Lair cinematics: Glint: "Their souls will be reaped upon one of the five Bloodstones, just as the Chosen you witnessed being slaughtered in the Maguuma Jungle. If this happens, no magic on this world or any other will bring them back."

The Nightman Cometh: King Frozenwind: "The moment we have long dreaded has arrived! Dhuum is breaking free from the Hall of Judgment! Should he seize control of the Underworld, Dhuum's reign will be brutal and uncompromising, for he is the Final Death, and he does not tolerate resurrections or the undead."

There is also Vizunah Square, where the Envoys resurrect the players (and Togo/Mehnlo).

As for the information you derived from my thread, it is known the Envoys take the souls of the dead to the afterlife in at least Cantha, and we know that there are souls which wonder the world after the body's death. The only known way to pass on is via an Envoy or Avatar of the Gods moving the soul - there may be more ways, but that's what's known.

As for Shiro: He didn't have a body, hence why it was so hard for him to resurrect (my personal theory as to why we couldn't resurrect Togo was because Shiro took Togo's body, which then shifted to Shiro's form).

For further reading, there is Flesh and Bone: The Rules of Resurrection on the GW2Guru lore forum, which has a very in depth discussion on resurrection. (Warning: That thread devolved into quote wars and discussion on undead rather than resurrection for a bit).

Some key posts of mine are the following:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivenheart

Legion got me thinking on this a bit. Do we really know how mortality works in the world of Tyria? How does a res exactly work, does the body have to be in any number of pieces before the skill fails? Has there ever been a monk who looked down at the pulp of a comrade and that thought to themselves, "I just can't fix that."

Also brings up the point of Necromancer minions. Would it require more work to res someone after they've had a minion or two pulled from their corpse? Should it?

Resurrection and Minions make a fine cross into game mechanics. For instance, minions take body parts, so it shouldn't be possible to resurrect someone after making a minion out of them.

Honestly, we know next to nothing on resurrection except for one thing that is shared with undead:

Grenth is the reason it exists. He allows resurrection to occur.

But I would have to have a list of suspected requirements (in a pure lore context):

The soul could not have moved on yet.
]*]The body must be in a decent state (i.e., without healing, the body can sustain life).
Rigor Mortis cannot have set in (I say this, because there should be a time limit to when someone can be resurrected - only reasoning is used though).

If these are not fulfilled, then the body turns into an undead - or something along those lines.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legion

My main problems is that there are very few instances of this and none of them seems to effect the actual lore. Nobody seems to ever talk outside the game mechanics about the real consequences of resurrection. Even important figures like kings, nobles or emperors never use resurrection to prevent assassination attempts.

Well maybe the use of resurrection is more choosy than we think - but where do you see any assassinations? Only ones we know of is the case of Shiro and the Khan-Ur - and Kaineng Tah. The later two are long before magic, and the former was done in such a way the body couldn't be reached (and he was killed in a rather unique way).

As for "very few instances of this and none of them seems to effect the actual lore" - highly disagree:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glint;The Dragon's Lair

Their souls will be reaped upon one of the five Bloodstones, just as the Chosen you witnessed being slaughtered in the Maguuma Jungle.If this happens, no magic on this world or any other will bring them back.

This is far from the tutorial and clearly lore, as if it were breaking the fourth wall, it would say lengthen resurrection, not prevent it, as game mechanics have lengthening not prevention.

We also have more:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lina the Healer

Many people believe that maintaining a resurrection shrine and seeing to it that people get a second chance at life is supposed to be an inspirational and ennobling experience. I'm not one of those people.

True, this is in pre-searing Ascalon, thus part of a tutorial, but note two things: Firstly, all resurrection shrines in pre-searing that are active are manned by a monk. Those which are not active, have no monk. This is then resupported in Factions in the Kurzick and Luxon areas - if the priests are not allied, you do not get resurrected. And this is once more followed up in Nightfall and Eye of the North with the bounty givers (a majority of which are priests in Nightfall).

And of course, we cannot forget our dear old Ice King Frozenwind:

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Frozenwind

Dhuum's reign will be brutal and uncompromising, for he is the Final Death, and he does not tolerate resurrections or the undead.

Surely we shouldn't think of removing this new lore from the canon lore. I mean, if resurrection wasn't canon, would Linsey bother to include new lore on resurrection?

It is true that we have little real lore on resurrection, but we do have lore on it, and it is a part of lore. We just don't know to what extent. If we were to remove it from lore, we should remove Rotscale from lore, since there is little on him. Or the Giganticus Lupicus, there is nothing except how old they are and their general size based on bones. It is a failed argument people constantly bring up which I show examples of the same situation, but they say is different. In reality, they just don't see the similarity because they don't want to. But I cannot say I am flawless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legion

Personally, I think this is more a gameplay feature on the level of map travel than anything else. It feels like they are explaining a game mechanic not lore like “the resurrection shrines is an ancient magic devices from the era of blahblahblah” . One could argue that ressurrection shrines are relics from the exodus war but again they never mention that.

Given how important these object will be in a military campaign nobody seems to bothering in conquering it (except in factions). If only works with the heroes then why the bad guys never seems to thinking in destroy every single shrine? Also I don’t remember the shrines being mentioned in any sidequest even when they would be extremely important from the tactical sense. In fact it seems like they don’t even exists.

It seems to me that, excluding the creation of Pre-Searing, these shrines were forgotten with the lore aspect. Perhaps they are forgotten - there are shrines (I recall one in the Arid Sea) which do not work - and that one has a "broken" pad. These shrines are also used in Arenas, and there are NPCs stating "don't worry, if you die, we can bring you back into the fight".

So while uncommon, there are points which give a more lore value to them. After all, I doubt you'd have the same guys going into fights over and over again, dying multiple times, if resurrection was not possible from a lore view.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legion

Also, who built so many resurrection shrines all over the place even in the middle of nowhere (Desolation, Rings of Fire etc)?

Could be various people - like Palawa Joko who didn't want his mortal servants to die (he seems to love the idea of mixing his army of living and undead, so he needs a way to keep some alive), or they could be from before the exodus. There either are or were sentient races in every single area we go to, so it could be they created them.

Chthon · Jul 21, 2010, 02:45 AM // 02:45

I recall reading a theory somewhere that linked resurrection with being "chosen." I think the idea was mainly to explain why most people -- Rurick, Brechnar, Togo, name any dead NPC -- cannot be rezzed, while others -- the players -- can.

awry · Jul 21, 2010, 03:41 AM // 03:41

I always thought that it would depend on how long you stay face down in the dirt. After a while your soul may not be able to re-enter your body. After all enemies fade away after a while, they are no longer able to be rezzed. Bosses on the other hand do not disappear so yeah, like chthon suggested, some creatures and players are special, in the case of the humans, they are the chosen. Their bodies do not disintegrate so they have a vessel for the soul to return to. I also think their resurrection might have some source in the player's life energy. In exchange for revival their overall life span is shortened, this is represented by death penalty. Of course you can erase d.p. easily, but I think that perhaps a hidden cost is an earlier death.

Bristlebane · Jul 21, 2010, 10:56 AM // 10:56

I would say a soul is not collected by Enjoys immediately after death. And before they come, you can still be resurrected as body will still be fresh and mortal wounds can be healed. This could also be the reason why you can overlook a battle through the eyes of your allies, you have an emotional bond to them and your spirit is temporary free from the body.

As for the second part of resurrection when entire party is resurrected at nearest shrine, that's the interferance of the Gods. They do support you, like giving you blessings at shrines, they power many or most of the spells and skills you use, and they can bring you back from the dead. Their resurrection magic would be channeled through a shrine, that's why you resurrect at last visited or possible nearest shrine, and that's why they can't resurrect you in an area without shrines or in proximity of other powerful evil gods. (ie. Underworld, Fissure of Woe, Deep, Urgoz, Domain of Anguish)

Piippo · Jul 21, 2010, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Quote:

Also, who built so many resurrection shrines all over the place even in the middle of nowhere (Desolation, Rings of Fire etc)?

Quote:

Their resurrection magic would be channeled through a shrine, that's why you resurrect at last visited or possible nearest shrine, and that's why they can't resurrect you in an area without shrines or in proximity of other powerful evil gods. (ie. Underworld, Fissure of Woe, Deep, Urgoz, Domain of Anguish)

How about the Realm Of Torment then? I can't go check right now, but isn't there Resurrection Shrines all over there, too? And the realm is pretty much under Abaddon's control so if shrines would work with the power of the True Gods, it would be strange that they would work in a place where the Gods' powers can't reach.

On the other hand...

Quote:

Firstly, all resurrection shrines in pre-searing that are active are manned by a monk. Those which are not active, have no monk. This is then resupported in Factions in the Kurzick and Luxon areas - if the priests are not allied, you do not get resurrected. And this is once more followed up in Nightfall and Eye of the North with the bounty givers (a majority of which are priests in Nightfall).

The shrines in the Realm Of Torment have a Forgotten watching over them. So it might be that the shrine attendants "operate" the resurrection shrines.

Mintha Syl · Jul 21, 2010, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Very interesting debate.

First of all

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Firstly, all resurrection shrines in pre-searing that are active are manned by a monk. Those which are not active, have no monk. This is then resupported in Factions in the Kurzick and Luxon areas - if the priests are not allied, you do not get resurrected..

I'd like to add only sanctuaries that are adjacent to an outpost have priests, while all the other ones are empty but still functional. I believe the reason is most for the outpost protection: they can't permit enemies to get near, so they found a way to manipulate somehow the shrine so that enemies don't get resurrected there. And the guards staying with the monk, they do the same work but with brutal force. So we could assume shrines don't need someone to maintain them. But if so I ask myself what is the person at the shrine doing. I know it's difficult to discern such concepts, since they were created to serve game mechanics and lore had to be created after around them. One could think that anyway the shrine "keeper" has some connection with gods, or similar forces (see Norn spirits). But then, what about Asura? So I think all these keepers are there to prevent anyone from destrying the shrine itself, as everybody knows their value, even with no faith in gods. Ans sure monks, if the local population can dispose of similar figures, are the better ones to do a similar task, as "restoring" life should be in their inclinations. And this is also supported by your quote from Lina in pre-searing.

And now comes to my mind another question. When you get allies in Eye of the North, and also in the War in Kryta (now I can't rmember if it happens anywhere else) they automatically resurrect when the fight ends, or something like that. How can this happen, without shrines, priests or anything else we normally know as a life restorer? Are them such important to gain a direct intervention of the gods or spirits (such as they did for us in Vizunah)?

Piippo · Jul 21, 2010, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mintha Syl

When you get allies in Eye of the North, and also in the War in Kryta (now I can't rmember if it happens anywhere else) they automatically resurrect when the fight ends, or something like that. How can this happen, without shrines, priests or anything else we normally know as a life restorer? Are them such important to gain a direct intervention of the gods or spirits (such as they did for us in Vizunah)?

I think that the auto-resurrect of the allies is just pure game mechanics. It just doesn't seem to fit into the theories discussed above.

Or then they always carry personal Resurrection Orbs...

reaper with no name · Jul 21, 2010, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Why hasn't anyone considered the obvious explanation that every other RPG ever made uses? Resurrection doesn't cure death; it cures unconsciousness.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 21, 2010, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by awry

I always thought that it would depend on how long you stay face down in the dirt. After a while your soul may not be able to re-enter your body. After all enemies fade away after a while, they are no longer able to be rezzed. Bosses on the other hand do not disappear so yeah, like chthon suggested, some creatures and players are special, in the case of the humans, they are the chosen. Their bodies do not disintegrate so they have a vessel for the soul to return to. I also think their resurrection might have some source in the player's life energy. In exchange for revival their overall life span is shortened, this is represented by death penalty. Of course you can erase d.p. easily, but I think that perhaps a hidden cost is an earlier death.

The monsters disappearing is most likely a mechanic so that one cannot exploit corpses minutes later and/or so that there's less lagg (as more models=more lagg, which would be killer especially during quests and missions like the Battle for LA and THK). Same goes with death penalty - a game mechanic (as it is even changed in GW2, which furthers why it is purely a game mechanic).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bristlebane

I would say a soul is not collected by Enjoys immediately after death. And before they come, you can still be resurrected as body will still be fresh and mortal wounds can be healed. This could also be the reason why you can overlook a battle through the eyes of your allies, you have an emotional bond to them and your spirit is temporary free from the body.

As for the second part of resurrection when entire party is resurrected at nearest shrine, that's the interferance of the Gods. They do support you, like giving you blessings at shrines, they power many or most of the spells and skills you use, and they can bring you back from the dead. Their resurrection magic would be channeled through a shrine, that's why you resurrect at last visited or possible nearest shrine, and that's why they can't resurrect you in an area without shrines or in proximity of other powerful evil gods. (ie. Underworld, Fissure of Woe, Deep, Urgoz, Domain of Anguish)

On the overlooking allies after death, that may very well be a game mechanic.

As to the interference of the Gods and the blessings at shrines. It isn't shrines that they give blessings at, but statues - which are only at shrines in Factions and Nightfall.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mintha Syl

Very interesting debate.

First of all

I'd like to add only sanctuaries that are adjacent to an outpost have priests, while all the other ones are empty but still functional. I believe the reason is most for the outpost protection: they can't permit enemies to get near, so they found a way to manipulate somehow the shrine so that enemies don't get resurrected there. And the guards staying with the monk, they do the same work but with brutal force. So we could assume shrines don't need someone to maintain them. But if so I ask myself what is the person at the shrine doing. I know it's difficult to discern such concepts, since they were created to serve game mechanics and lore had to be created after around them. One could think that anyway the shrine "keeper" has some connection with gods, or similar forces (see Norn spirits). But then, what about Asura? So I think all these keepers are there to prevent anyone from destrying the shrine itself, as everybody knows their value, even with no faith in gods. Ans sure monks, if the local population can dispose of similar figures, are the better ones to do a similar task, as "restoring" life should be in their inclinations. And this is also supported by your quote from Lina in pre-searing.

And now comes to my mind another question. When you get allies in Eye of the North, and also in the War in Kryta (now I can't rmember if it happens anywhere else) they automatically resurrect when the fight ends, or something like that. How can this happen, without shrines, priests or anything else we normally know as a life restorer? Are them such important to gain a direct intervention of the gods or spirits (such as they did for us in Vizunah)?

Yes, I've realized that not all shrines in Factions are manned after I posted that, though the point stands: Priests control the shrines. Some are just "forgotten" (the lore of the shrines was most likely not fully established or a main issue for the dev team).

As to the Asura: Eternal Alchemy includes one's death (or prevention of). So that would be their "source of power" (if one's magical abilities did indeed come from one's faith, which I doubt).

As to the allies resurrecting, I have to agree with Piippo - that's most likely purely a game mechanic.

Many people here are ignoring the differences between lore and mechanics, and one must keep the differences and possible differences in mind, especially with a tricky lore subject like resurrection.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Why hasn't anyone considered the obvious explanation that every other RPG ever made uses? Resurrection doesn't cure death; it cures unconsciousness.

Because that's not resurrection is about in the use of the word, and more importantly, if it was unconsciousness then it wouldn't have been brought up with Dhuum/Grenth disallowing/allowing it.

Though Anet seems to be taking a logical step to the measures that other RPGs made: The downed state, which occurs when HP reaches 0 but it isn't unconsciousness, but rather the "about to die" stage where one cannot do that much, but it not completely useless in fights.

Steps_Descending · Jul 23, 2010, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Though Anet seems to be taking a logical step to the measures that other RPGs made: The downed state, which occurs when HP reaches 0 but it isn't unconsciousness, but rather the "about to die" stage where one cannot do that much, but it not completely useless in fights.

This would also explains player's resurection spell as being very powerful healing spell.

If a Word of Healing might heal burns, scratches, cut and bruises on an arm and part of the torso (this in one of the most power full healing spell, it heals for what? 150? That'S +- 1/3 of a payer's full hp). Renew life could take a 3rd-degree-burned, beaten to death by 3 hammer, magically drained, bleeding internally, electrified, tranpled body and bring it back to a fragile but fighting-fit player. Powerfull...

KageNoShi · Jul 24, 2010, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

As for Shiro: He didn't have a body, hence why it was so hard for him to resurrect (my personal theory as to why we couldn't resurrect Togo was because Shiro took Togo's body, which then shifted to Shiro's form).

Hate to be the baron of bad news here Konig but pretty sure the cinematic for Imperial Sanctum had Togo laying face down in a pool of his own blood(you can still see his corpse in the mission unless I'm mistaken).

Konig Des Todes · Jul 24, 2010, 03:51 AM // 03:51

*cough* Game mechanics (and I doubt there's gonna be a pool of blood in a bloodless game)

And yes, I recall Togo's body, though I usually tend to forget about it.

Piippo · Jul 24, 2010, 11:40 AM // 11:40

I think Togo couldn't be resurrected for the very same reason why Emperor Angsiyan, who Shiro killed couldn't be resurrected: Their bodies (and souls as in the case of the emperor) were used in powerful magic which could have prevented the body to be resurrected. I.e. the body was somehow "consumed" in a way, not physically but magically.

CagedinSanity · Jul 28, 2010, 10:20 PM // 22:20

In roleplaying terms, I don't address its existence.

In WoW, there's a Cathedral of the Light people can drag bodies to and tell them to "bring it back". GW has no such luxury. When you die, you stay dead or become UNdead.

When my character facerolls onto the ground, I equate it to them getting their asses kicked, temporarily.

But seeing as roleplayers are VERY few and VERY far between, the subject doesn't come up often.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 29, 2010, 08:27 AM // 08:27

If resurrection didn't exist in lore, tell me why it is mentioned by dialogue - dialogue that doesn't break the fourth wall - on multiple accounts? Including a rather recent account of the Halloween 09 quests.

CagedinSanity · Jul 29, 2010, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Halloween event, I equate to being knocked on our ass, not a simple pumpkin king killing thousands of people and performing a massive resurrection over a hundred times. That'd take a lot of energy even for the most powerful.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 30, 2010, 03:06 AM // 03:06

The quests given from that... Particularly the one that is now always available - the Nightman Cometh. King Frozenwind says that Dhuum does not tolerate resurrection and the undead.

I even said "Halloween 09 quests"