Curse

xp4p45murfx · Jun 09, 2010, 02:20 AM // 02:20

After reading the above postings, i agree with Sante Kelm. The race does not get enough credit for their existence. Go Frogs.

EwolxNavi · Jun 09, 2010, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

One could say the exact same for the charr - in fact, that's more or less how Ascalonians view the charr. You must remember that everything in gw1 is a human's point of view, with a few things being what other races tell us.

Agreed. And prior to EotN, I marked the Charr for elimination as well. Fierceshot may not have changed Gwen's mind, but he certainly changed mine, and I now very much look forward to playing a Charr in 250 years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

If a race is sapient - we which know the heket are - there is a chance of peace. I haven't noticed a single human in Vabbi or Kourna which thought that hekets weren't some sort of plague - does that mean that hekets are in fact a plague? No, not at all. It means that humanity in those areas view them to be such.

I don't know that I can agree that sapience means there is a chance for peace. Non-sapience doesn't mean it can't be peaceful. Our animal companions (for those of us with Ranger professions) are certainly not sapient, but they are no less valuable friends and comrades. On the other side of the coin, sapience doesn't mean it can be peaceful either.

There are sapient Torment demons (don't know that all are, but it seems they are at least capable of it), like the Harbingers of Twilight and Nightfall, the Emissaries of Dhuum (specifically those in the Gate of Pain mission) and the Hunger. All speak the common tongue, but there are absolutely none that are non-hostile, and all the lore points to them being especially hostile to humans. According to The Hunger, he was working with Bayel under duress, due to orders from Abaddon himself. He even blatantly stated that he would only refrain from killing the Kournans for as long as his orders were in effect, which sounds to me like his free will was more or less suspended (due to being forced to follow orders) and he wouldn't have worked with humans if he'd been given the choice. I don't believe that sapience can be the basis for whether or not a creature, or a race is capable of being peaceful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

In fact, yes, we do see where hekets work with humans. Though not directly, and not with us. You'll find this quest to be quite interesting. It proves that hekets are sapient, that they have allied with humans, and partially of why they always attack us. In one line, no less.
They have allied with Varesh and the Vabbians are hated (I would also assume they just hate humans in general, Varesh being a special exception since a peace negotiation was able to be made).

This, I grant you, is much more compelling evidence to the contrary. My only misgiving is who they made this agreement with, and when they made it. For Your Ears Only occurs after the Grand Court of Sebelkeh mission, if I'm not mistaken (since it's a secondary quest, it's hard to place it and I cleared this one a long time ago). At this point I believe Varesh was no longer human, and hadn't been since night had fallen after Dzagonur Bastion/Dasha Vestibule. I would say that the Heket made a contract with a demon (a concern noted by the Blue Tongue), and not with a human.

However if indeed the Heket could be civil long enough to sit down with a human leader and discuss terms of payment for services rendered (even if that human was a demon consort), then I suppose I shall have to withdraw my earlier statements. Perhaps the Heket are not deserving of extermination. I can't say I feel the slightest bit of guilt at wiping out a hylek village, but I will concede that they may be more than "highly functioning monsters".

Konig Des Todes · Jun 09, 2010, 08:24 AM // 08:24

I believe it was prior to the Grand Court as it is available prior to it. Also, Varesh is called a human. But Varesh was a human until the Ruins of Morah either way, not until the Grand Court mission. Though she did have the four "lumps" that would become eyes, she was still a human.

The concern was in fact of the Margonite troops Varesh had, and not of her. In fact, the concern of the Margonite implies that the hekets wouldn't dare make a peacetreaty with demons - so long as others share the thought of the two conversing.

I don't see how you can view any race as "deserving of extermination" just because they are hostile. Would you say the naga are "deserving of extermination" despite being one of the most advanced races in Cantha just because they have a bitter hatred for humanity due to a vast majority of their race being killed by the Jade Wind? Would you say that the grawl are "deserving of extermination" despite having allied with charr?

Honestly, saying any race is "deserving of extermination" is just as xenophobic as the Stone Summit and the Nazi. Even if the races are fictional.

EwolxNavi · Jun 09, 2010, 02:47 PM // 14:47

And here I had been hoping we could keep such overused archetypes like the Nazi's out of this.

As I said before, this has nothing to do with xenophobia. Xenophobia is hatred towards a race purely because they are different. Were that the case, I would hate anything that is non-human, or perhaps "sufficiently" non-human. Heket, however, have about as many humanoid characteristics as the Dredge, whom I would be willing to accept as allies. The other races (which I shan't bother to list again) are also very different from humans (especially races like the Forgotten). It's not the difference that is the problem, it's the hostility.

Who here shed a tear over the Torment Creatures, when we invaded their realm and slew their god? Reactionary to their incursions? Of course, and we responded appropriately.

What about the Margonites? The whole point of the Domain of Anguish elite mission Mallyx the Unyielding is to crush this demon race once and for all. I hear no cries of xenophobia for the Margonites. And I can even point to one among them who proved himself capable of reason and peace. The Apostate's confessions are invaluable contributions to the GW lore, some of the most important statements made anywhere in the game come from him. Yet we marked the Margonites for extinction. We invaded their realm to fight them, and even once they retreated from us we chased them into their very homes to slay them and their commander. Xenophobic? Or merely the appropriate response to a race that is hellbent on killing us all?

Who will speak for the Mursaat? As the "heroes" of Tyria, we invaded their islands, stormed their fortresses and unleashed the Titans upon them. Yes we were manipulated into this, but who stayed their hand when challenged by these spellcasters? Our only concern with the Titans was when they threatened human or dwarven cities. Who stood before the gates of a Mursaat stronghold to stop the Titans from slaying them? Come GW2, the Mursaat are a disparate, seemingly almost extinct race, and they rightly blame us. But human allies or not, does that mean they deserved their fate? I would say no, but there are other valid opinions.

I understand that others may disagree with the lines I draw in the sand between races worth preserving and races worth destroying, but it seems that you miss the point when you attribute it to "bigotry" or "xenophobia". It has nothing to do with superior or inferior, nothing to do with sameness or difference. They are deserving of extermination because, in so far as our survival is concerned, they insist on being our competitors. It becomes a matter of survival of the fittest, it's us or it's them. And as far as the Heket are concerned, they are in the same boat as the demons listed above, and the Charr were once as well.

The Charr and the Humans have done terrible things to each other over the ages (though the Humans did start that one, and so I have little pity for Ascalon), but by GW2 they've figured out that competing so fiercely only results in this continued need to exterminate each other. Do tensions still exist? Of course, that doesn't just go away. But can we work together for some sort of greater good? Then there's no need to be killing each other. I agree that we shouldn't go looking for fights. We should seek reconcilation, to use our differences to achieve something greater. And that's what's going on in GW2, which makes the prospect of that game so awesome. Five races, some former enemies, some well met allies, all working together because it serves a common good.

The Heket (so far as we know) have not come to this conclusion. Indeed the only alliance with humans we can point to is not for the greater good, but for the greater evil. But I'm sure they didn't know that of course. The point, however, is that Heket are not simply creatures who stay in their own habitats and peacefully co-exist with nature. They (much like humans) consume all the resources in an area, and when they have nothing left they move on to find new resources. And they have no qualms about "bashing someone in the head for food" or "attacking human travelers". It is this insistance on competition that means sooner or later, we have to figure this out, or one of us has to die.

I reiterate that your point about their human alliance is a good one, and that it does indeed offer evidence that Heket are capable of working with humans. I therefore concede the point, that they are not (entirely) in need of being destroyed. But the fact remains that some races are worthy of extinction, if only because it insists on directly threatening our race. The Charr thought so, and I can't say they were wrong at the time. The Ascalonians still think so, and though their hatred may be fanatical, it's hard to deny that the Charr gave them cause. And they arn't the only ones. Our whole problem with the Dragons is that they threaten our existance. Yet it seems the whole point of GW2 is that we have marked them for destruction.

TL;DR
It's not about difference, it's about survival.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 09, 2010, 10:49 PM // 22:49

You have to remember that, in essence, all PCs are essentially the same person - to the AI that is. As such you alone in GW1 cannot form an alliance with one group while another does not. Though this may be different in GW2 (I would hope it is with all the talk on personal stories), in GW1 the "hero" is not so heroic. S/he is, more or less, an egotistical human who views few other races as better than humans - or, on the other hand, many races and groups detest the "hero" for whatever reason.

Just because we don't make peace with a group, and just because we don't see a group make peace, doesn't mean they can't. Essentially, every race, every group, can be peaceful. So there's no real reason to go onto some hate spree and view any race of "deserving of extinction" - that isn't about survival, it's about dislike. If it was about survival it would be "deserving of being away from me" more so than anything else.

If you think that a group should be eliminated just because there's some reason they don't want peace, then honestly I don't know what to relate you to - xenophobic is the wrong word but it is the closest word. The best phrase, however, to describe you would be "if there is no peace you will die." An egotistical human in every way that refuses to think of why peace cannot be made, basically.

And I would disagree on "the whole point of GW2 is that we have marked them [the elder dragons] for destruction" - the whole point of GW2 is not known. We know the dragons threaten the world (or at least make themselves out to be that way), and we know that the main antagonist of the overall story is Zhaitan, we however do not know what will happen to Zhaitan, we however do not know what the fate of any elder dragon will be, and we certainly do know that the ED is not the only storyline.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 09, 2010, 10:49 PM // 22:49

You have to remember that, in essence, all PCs are essentially the same person - to the AI that is. As such you alone in GW1 cannot form an alliance with one group while another does not. Though this may be different in GW2 (I would hope it is with all the talk on personal stories), in GW1 the "hero" is not so heroic. S/he is, more or less, an egotistical human who views few other races as better than humans - or, on the other hand, many races and groups detest the "hero" for whatever reason.

Just because we don't make peace with a group, and just because we don't see a group make peace, doesn't mean they can't. Essentially, every race, every group, can be peaceful. So there's no real reason to go onto some hate spree and view any race of "deserving of extinction" - that isn't about survival, it's about dislike. If it was about survival it would be "deserving of being away from me" more so than anything else.

If you think that a group should be eliminated just because there's some reason they don't want peace, then honestly I don't know what to relate you to - xenophobic is the wrong word but it is the closest word. The best phrase, however, to describe you would be "if there is no peace you will die." An egotistical human in every way that refuses to think of why peace cannot be made, basically.

And I would disagree on "the whole point of GW2 is that we have marked them [the elder dragons] for destruction" - the whole point of GW2 is not known. We know the dragons threaten the world (or at least make themselves out to be that way), and we know that the main antagonist of the overall story is Zhaitan, we however do not know what will happen to Zhaitan, we however do not know what the fate of any elder dragon will be, and we certainly do know that the ED is not the only storyline.

Gmr Leon · Jun 14, 2010, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by EwolxNavi

Now cross that field without them attacking you. Ignore them, walk around them, just mind your own business and leave them alone. They will attack you. Without any real reason or purpose beyond the fact that you were there to be attacked. Now expand this behavior to their entire species. Every single tribe and clan of them. This isn't arrogance, or bigotry. It's simple logic. It is bound and determined to kill you, so if you want to live you have to kill it.

You don't understand them. If you run into them once and they try to kill you, you don't keep running into them in the hopes that they'll have had a sudden change of heart. That's not how it works, in-game due to mechanics, and in life due to any number of reasons.

If you want evidence of Frogmen civility, I have it. Go to Sparkfly Swamp, head north to Bogroot Growths and take either of these quests:
Giriff's War.
Tekks's War.

The second one is even better, but both are good as they show you fighting alongside the respective tribe, Gokir or Ophil. The second is better due to the fact that according to Tekks's dialogue, she was working with the Ophil tribe before the quest's events to map out Bogroot Growths. There are reasonable tribes of Frogmen, just as there were clearly reasonable tribes of Heket in Elona, even if it was towards our enemy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EwolxNavi

In the case of the Heket, they are all bound and determined to kill you, without any prior provocation. It stands to reason that you will have to kill them all then, yes? Or at least all the ones that cross your path. It is the fact that they are all like this, that allows me to make the generalization.

That isn't reasonable. That's survival. Survival does not produce appropriate, reasoned responses, and thus any response made under the pressures of survival will be irrational. Yes, the survival response would be to eliminate any organism that is attacking you, either through death or temporary termination of consciousness long enough for you to escape. The survival response would not be to eliminate any other members of the species encountered. If it nearly killed you once, or tried to kill you before, your survival instincts would push you to avoid any further run-ins with the species.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EwolxNavi

]It is for this reason that I would say, until they "get it", I have no problem with killing them all...Will I still kill the ones coming after me? Of course, the same as I kill other humans that try to kill me. But it's not about superiority. It's about the fact that the species simply has no redeeming members, and as a whole has pitted itself against us.

That's your justification? It has no redeeming members, so eliminate the entire species? There's a point to which you take a step back from self preservation instincts and look at the bigger picture, you know?

As an additional note here (I was thinking there would be a better place to specify what I meant by bigger picture, but it would appear not, at least in this post) your response to the Frogmen or Heket's interactions with humanity or yourself isn't logical, rational, or even reasonable. This is a game, and so it stands to reason you wouldn't contemplate the matter in these terms, but ecologically speaking they have a place in the natural order. It's true that Tyria isn't exactly a natural world as far as we are concerned (after all, if it was, we wouldn't enjoy it as much) but it does share certain similarities, one of which is the abundance of organic life. Each species is keeping another in check in some manner, remove that species, and you simply get another replacing it, in the process potentially outnumbering its resources or food causing mass extinction.

I suspect, prior to the presence of humanity in Elona, there was a delicate balance between the Centaurs and Heket. The Heket kept the centaurs in check, and the centaurs kept the Heket population in check. In that way, both had enough food to sustain the other species' survival.

Introduce humanity and you throw it all out of whack, which is probably why the Heket appear as an infestation. The Kournans, by subjugating the centaurs, are preventing them from acting as the natural check to their population. Prior to our (and the Asura's) arrival in the Frogmen's territory, it seems likely that the Quetzal, Krait, or the powerful dinosaurs were acting as the natural check.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EwolxNavi

Until then, call me whatever names you want.

Describing your response is by no means calling you names. Taken out of context, I suspect anyone would describe it as I did.

agrios · Oct 20, 2010, 12:03 PM // 12:03

dansamy · Oct 20, 2010, 05:19 PM // 17:19

I was quite disappointed to learn that Sylvari have an affinity for rats or frogs. I shall not be rolling any Sylvari toons.

Konig Des Todes · Oct 20, 2010, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Nothing says they have an affinity for rats or frogs. I assume what you mean is the racial sympathy which every character will have.