Curse

BenjZee · Nov 23, 2010, 08:22 AM // 08:22

I thought it was told quite well, it was obvious Gwen was getting very jelous of Miku even though Kieran wouldn't dare do anything. Her response to the proposal was quite comical and still having some GW charm to it, what did you want her to do go "ohhhh kieran, yes, i am the happiest girl in the world"...now that wouldn't be what we wanted to see.

And those still angry about her and Pyre, c'mon she's supposed to be quite horrible towards him even if you think thats a little extreme. Pyre doesn't put her down in this and simply states that the mouse is learning.

Raven Wing · Nov 24, 2010, 09:49 AM // 09:49

Well you can cast spells that only do harm if some conditions are met. She could have cast empathy and backfire on him, and since he didnt try to attack or cast spells they had no effect.
Thats also a way to control people you know

Azazello · Nov 24, 2010, 02:35 PM // 14:35

ITT: guys who are sensitive about women's opinions of their hair.

Oh, and yeah, as for hating the Charr... imagine the nazis ATE their victims in concentration camps. Now imagine you were in a concentration camp as a child, escaped, and met an SS officer. Feel ready to forgive and forget? The only thing I didn't like about Gwen's interaction with Pyre is that she doesn't cut his throat in his sleep.

'But Pyre is fighting the shamans too!' BS. The enemy of your enemy is NOT your friend. He still holds the same values that led him and those like him to destroy everything you ever loved. Then eat it if it had legs.

Rushin Roulette · Nov 24, 2010, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

ITT: guys who are sensitive about women's opinions of their hair.

Oh, and yeah, as for hating the Charr... imagine the nazis ATE their victims in concentration camps. Now imagine you were in a concentration camp as a child, escaped, and met an SS officer. Feel ready to forgive and forget? The only thing I didn't like about Gwen's interaction with Pyre is that she doesn't cut his throat in his sleep.

Actually your analogue is kind of Skewed. It would be more like if you met a captured German Resistance fighter after you had escaped. Pyre is himself not a Prison guard and is fightign against the Shaman caste who would be the Nazis in your comparison.

If you take that into account, then Gwens reactions are very close minded and stupid. Shes just after revenge no matter who it hits. In the end shes no better than the Charr herself by choosing random and innocent victims.

Azazello · Nov 24, 2010, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rushin Roulette

Actually your analogue is kind of Skewed. It would be more like if you met a captured German Resistance fighter after you had escaped. Pyre is himself not a Prison guard and is fightign against the Shaman caste who would be the Nazis in your comparison.

If you take that into account, then Gwens reactions are very close minded and stupid. Shes just after revenge no matter who it hits. In the end shes no better than the Charr herself by choosing random and innocent victims.

Sorry you posted before my clarification edit. He's still behaving exactly like the other SS guards, carrying on about 'racial purity' and happy to torture kill and eat people. He still calls you 'meat', which is charr for 'n*&^%r'. He just doesn't like Hitler being in charge. The analogy may be flawed in some way, but not in the way you're saying.

Mordakai · Nov 24, 2010, 04:10 PM // 16:10

I have no problem with the overall plot:

Gwen loves Keiran, Keiran loves Gwen. No prob.

I do think the proposal was... awkward. If would have been a nice change of pace for Gwen to propose to Keiran...

I don't know, it just happened too fast to my taste. I would have liked one more quest with Keiran and Gwen together, that sealed the deal.

But there is still a wedding to plan, so I remain hopeful.

Azazello · Nov 24, 2010, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Eh, I realised that makes it sound like I think the charr are nazis. I don't, I'm saying that all the values that the charr weight differently to humans, strength, conflict, in-group loyalty, cannibalism, and a general lack of empathy, are the things that Gwen associates with everything she cared about ending horribly. Pyre still demonstrates all of those value differences, he just doesn't like his bosses because they've been lying to him.

The fact that Gwen will cooperate with him at all, even to her own benefit, is the only thing that bothers me about their interaction. It's not very believable. If Canadians killed and ate everyone I know because that's what Canadians enjoyed doing, then I met a Canadian who liked to talk about eating people a lot, I wouldn't be thinking 'hey, I wonder if this guy can be of help to me'.

Mordakai · Nov 24, 2010, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

The fact that Gwen will cooperate with him at all, even to her own benefit, is the only thing that bothers me about their interaction. It's not very believable. If Canadians ate my parents, and I met a Canadian who liked to talk about eating people a lot, I wouldn't be thinking 'hey, I wonder if this guy can be of help to me'.

I think you're forgetting the whole point of the quest chain:

To rescue the missing Vanguard troops.

This is like Clarice working with Hannibal Lector to find the missing girl....

Or, to put it another way, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend". (although, even though she needs Pyre's help, I wouldn't call them friends).

Azazello · Nov 24, 2010, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

I think you're forgetting the whole point of the quest chain:

To rescue the missing Vanguard troops.

This is like Clarice working with Hannibal Lector to find the missing girl....

Or, to put it another way, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend". (although, even though she needs Pyre's help, I wouldn't call them friends).

Only Clarice didn't see a serial killer torture and eat her parents. Clarice is not a teenage soldier, she's studying to be a professional in dealing with serial killers. It's her job to talk to serial killers. It's Gwens job to KILL charr, and it's probably safe to say she enjoys her work a lot more than Clarice.

You're right though. I can definitely see how people could cooperate like that. If I was the one in Gwens place though, those Vanguard soldiers would be dead, because every offhand smartass comment from Pyre would earn him a smack in the mouth. I definitely wouldn't be biting my tongue if I was in her shoes, and I honestly think most people would react closer to how I would than how she does. That's why it's a bit odd to see so many people wondering why she isn't all Gandhi about it.

Mordakai · Nov 24, 2010, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

Only Clarice didn't see a serial killer torture and eat her parents. Clarice is not a teenage soldier, she's studying to be a professional in dealing with serial killers. It's her job to talk to serial killers. It's Gwens job to KILL charr, and it's probably safe to say she enjoys her work a lot more than Clarice.

LOL, good point....

BTW, I took Pyre along with me with Gwen to find Keiran. Just for LOLs....

garethporlest18 · Nov 24, 2010, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Well if I had a choice, and Gwen did something to Pyre and then Pyre killed her..I'd be there going what the hell? Then I'd clap him on the back and say good job man, I was trying to get rid of her for a long time. Maybe I'd even help him.

Spookii · Nov 24, 2010, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Meh. Miku clamped onto Thackery as soon as she saw him. Gwen had been bouncing around Thackery for a while. Even though she was offish, it was pretty obvious that she was mildly interested in him. She just didn't want to admit that to anyone (even herself).

RedStar · Nov 24, 2010, 06:49 PM // 18:49

On the Charr, because of the shamans, whole generations have been raised thinking a certain way. However Pyre went against the shamans. (But don't forget that the Charr and the Humans are at war, so it's kind of normal that they don't go hugging each other).

Quote:

Well you can cast spells that only do harm if some conditions are met. She could have cast empathy and backfire on him, and since he didnt try to attack or cast spells they had no effect.
Thats also a way to control people you know

I think it was more something like Wastrel's Worry because it did hurt him a little...but only a little...I mean if she almost brought him on his knee is 2 seconds, I would have liked her a little more.

A11Eur0 · Nov 24, 2010, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spookii

Meh. Miku clamped onto Thackery as soon as she saw him. Gwen had been bouncing around Thackery for a while. Even though she was offish, it was pretty obvious that she was mildly interested in him. She just didn't want to admit that to anyone (even herself).

She felt that she wasn't supposed to have a relationship with him, and her actions followed suit, with or without a conscious decision. It happens all the time with damaged women AND men. They grow up experiencing terror, loss, abandonment...and want to minimize that feeling in the future by distancing themselves from everyone except as necessary to achieve their goals. (Helping you kill Charr.) Keiran had to force himself upon her emotionally in order to open her up. She's conflicted by her desire for solitarity and a more primal desire for companionship.

Anyone who has known anyone with anywhere near the sort of upbringing Gwen had knows that her actions were normal, if not MILD.

Also, Keiran has a Dom fetish, and Gwen is a Dom. It's no surprise that she's a Dom mesmer to start with. He accepts her strong-handed ways because it turns him on.

Spookii · Nov 24, 2010, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

She felt that she wasn't supposed to have a relationship with him, and her actions followed suit, with or without a conscious decision. It happens all the time with damaged women AND men. They grow up experiencing terror, loss, abandonment...and want to minimize that feeling in the future by distancing themselves from everyone except as necessary to achieve their goals. (Helping you kill Charr.) Keiran had to force himself upon her emotionally in order to open her up. She's conflicted by her desire for solitarity and a more primal desire for companionship.

Anyone who has known anyone with anywhere near the sort of upbringing Gwen had knows that her actions were normal, if not MILD.

Also, Keiran has a Dom fetish, and Gwen is a Dom. It's no surprise that she's a Dom mesmer to start with. He accepts her strong-handed ways because it turns him on.

Pretty much my point. Just because Gwen didn't throw herself on Thackery like Miku did, doesn't mean that she didn't want him. Gwen had lost everyone she had ever loved, knew only fear and hatred for a great portion of her life, and even after her escape she carried a LOT of baggage. Anyone would be afraid of entering into a relationship with someone when both you and your loved one are in a world like they are in, doing the jobs that they do.

Besides, I wouldn't be surprised if Gwen felt a sense of guilt about letting Thackery in at first. Perhaps she felt like she owed it to her family to dedicate her life to the destruction of the Charr, and Thackery would be a distraction from that.

Miku, on the other hand, just went goggley-eyed at his rippling muscles as he pulled his bowstring back. She melted as he offered his aid to poor villagers in Beetletun. How much did she know about him, really? Well, he uses a bow.

...

...

...

He's such an Edward to her probably, rofl. Tall, dark, handsome, mysterious, and very sweet. I'm not saying that she didn't have any right hitting on him, if she likes him, all the power to her. But I'm definitely glad that Thackery stayed for Gwen.

All sorts of reasons validate Gwen's actions towards Thackery and vice versa, imo. The world isn't a fairy tale, there doesn't have to be a perfect beginning for it to be a perfect ending.

Reokuma · Jan 05, 2011, 11:00 AM // 11:00

I HATE Thackeray with a passion. I hate even more that his descendant is a big name in Guildwars 2. He is such a weak pathetic existence in Guild wars. Hes annoying makes you run pointless tasks (scavenger hunt) gets lost a lot apparently, a terrible soldier, (when he should be fighting char hes planting a garden) and on top of everything else he stole Gwen from the amazing Ookami Scribe of the Shadow Blade Assassins.

Reokuma · Jan 05, 2011, 11:13 AM // 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

ITT: guys who are sensitive about women's opinions of their hair.

Oh, and yeah, as for hating the Charr... imagine the nazis ATE their victims in concentration camps. Now imagine you were in a concentration camp as a child, escaped, and met an SS officer. Feel ready to forgive and forget? The only thing I didn't like about Gwen's interaction with Pyre is that she doesn't cut his throat in his sleep.

'But Pyre is fighting the shamans too!' BS. The enemy of your enemy is NOT your friend. He still holds the same values that led him and those like him to destroy everything you ever loved. Then eat it if it had legs.

The Charr aren't Nazis at all if anything in the plot of guild wars the humans are the Nazis. While the humans fight the char to exterminate them and conquer all of Tyria. the Charr fight the humans to reclaim the land that was stolen from them. Ive always seen the char as a collection of native American tribes. The charr were originally detached from religion. It wasn't until the Charr started to worship "gods" that pyre and the warband turned on them to protect their beliefs.

joseph Mckennie · Jan 05, 2011, 01:04 PM // 13:04

I don't think either of them would be considered nazis, really. Aside from maybe the charr's military tactics of 'hit really hard with everything we have' but the charr never really struck me as deep thinkers who resort to spies and subterfuge. Surely, they're capable of such higher thinking, but their culture encourages them to just "see a problem, hit it with a stick". And to the point of Gwen, she's not the only one who was held captive by the charr as a child. Almost all of the vanguard has had their families annihilated by them, or some similar traumatic event. But they didn't turn into cold heartless shrews. Gwen just didn't take it so well. I'm sure some people would respect her "I'm going to seek blind vengeance and hate everything for absolutely no reason, even though not everything is a charr" but you cant expect others to also not hate her for being so selfish and cold...and shrew-like (I'm sorry, she just kind of reminds me of a shrew.)

Prince Rogrs Nelson · Jan 05, 2011, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spookii

Pretty much my point. Just because Gwen didn't throw herself on Thackery like Miku did, doesn't mean that she didn't want him. Gwen had lost everyone she had ever loved, knew only fear and hatred for a great portion of her life, and even after her escape she carried a LOT of baggage. Anyone would be afraid of entering into a relationship with someone when both you and your loved one are in a world like they are in, doing the jobs that they do.

Besides, I wouldn't be surprised if Gwen felt a sense of guilt about letting Thackery in at first. Perhaps she felt like she owed it to her family to dedicate her life to the destruction of the Charr, and Thackery would be a distraction from that.

Yeah, the reason it bothers me so much is because it keeps reminding me of my sort-of-ex-gf.

If I could summon the guts to get rid of the "sort of" part I might like Gwen a little more.

Xiaquin · Jan 05, 2011, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reokuma

/snip

This is all moot when it was Abaddon who really is the root of all evil in the world.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Abaddon

In the grander scheme, Gwen and Pyre are both victims of what he wrought on all existence.