Curse

gremlin · Feb 25, 2011, 06:05 AM // 06:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by shinta_himura

Would you agree that if Gwen managed to rise above her strife and become the legendary founder of Ebonhawk alone (well, with her old friends, us of course), then that would have been a much more satisfying plot line?

Instead of actually doing anything good for Gwen, they killed yet another very important person to her (Langmar) and bumped in the typical male love interest. And suddenly she's yet another typical female lead. Gwen's plotline was such a captivating and interesting thing... meeting her again after all that time and reminiscing on the bittersweet past that you shared. Then... wintersday comes along... and everything just goes downhill from there... down hill and into someone's wallet (what a dramatic build up just to put some non-sense into the cash shop).

The meaning of love is simple: it exists to help bad writers. Oh and it helps NCSoft earn more money.

Quite agree they should have had Gwen move in with another girl and
Oh wait that's another stereotype.

Ok Gwen stays alone gets old and cynical buys a large house and gets 50 cats oops yet another stereotype.

Ok becomes the lone female warrior and wanders the world oops another stereotype.

Help please need an idea for Gwen that hasn't been written a thousand times.

[email protected]!k3 · Feb 25, 2011, 06:15 AM // 06:15

Well, many valid points have been made such as GW is principally a game people simply cannot expect it to have much plot that goes into depth, if they wanted to make a decent story they would have made a movie or something. Though I can sympathize with the OP on how the slap-stick romance was put together. As an avid-romance fanatic I can say that the relationship erected between Gwen and Keiran was somewhat abrupt and seemed a bit mediocre, but then again what do expect Anet to do when they are trying to start a new game when they have not even yet finished the first? In my opinion, it was sort shame to see such lovely story be rushed in order to make ends meet with GW2 (Logan Thakeray). The thought that comes to mind is if romance is going to be introduced, let it be executed the correct way not half-heartily, and as most people should know; Love is not a simple thing. To conclude my thought I will end with a contradiction: Anet isn't a group of renowned directors nor famed writers, so you cannot ask them to do something that is not their main concern nor expertise.

KZaske · Feb 25, 2011, 07:07 AM // 07:07

I have no problems with how the story between Gwen and Keiran worked out. Keiran did a lot of soul searching that we got to watch, Gwen also did a lot of soul searching (most of which we were not allowed to see) from the hints we were given. I have seen and heard stranger love stories in real life. I enjoyed playing through the whole thing.

draxynnic · Feb 26, 2011, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by shinta_himura

They even had Gwen completely ignore Langmar's death just to advance the "Keiran is Gone" nonsense.

Actually, that's not so uncommon, especially in military organisations. When someone's confirmed dead, they're dead... you can mourn and then go on with life. When you don't know - when there's that chance you can still do something to help things turn out for the better, when you still have something to lose - that's when people really get wrung through the emotional wringer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

The entire point of the plotline was for Gwen to realize that her obsession with revenge was preventing her from having anything remotely resembling a happy life. The charr destroyed her world, but it was her own fixation with constant war that kept her from rebuilding it.

Not precisely. The revenge-obsession is there, but what was really holding Gwen back was her paranoia that, after losing everything once, she couldn't allow herself to become attached again or she'd just risking losing it again. Keiran's disappearance essentially proved that despite her best efforts she had grown attached again, so she might as well allow herself to have some pleasure out of the relationship as well as pain.

Mind you, the general point is still the same - while the plotline focussed on Keiran, if you looked closely, Gwen was possibly developing in more significant ways. And I don't think she's going to fade into Keiran's shadow now she's married - if anything, it's the other way around. It's Gwen who's remembered by the charr as the Goremonger, after all.

What did annoy me was Keiran being twisted into a paragon primary despite a) being depicted as highly committed to the path of the ranger previously, b) being mechanically much more effective as a ranger, and c) having no good reason why he (or Gwen, for that matter) should be joining the hero at that time. But that's a discussion that's been thrashed to death already.

Lillium · Mar 01, 2011, 08:58 AM // 08:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I agree that it'd be nice to see a story without a love interest, since they're so common, but unfortunately that just makes it seem unrealistic. How many people do you know that has NO interest in a relationship - be it with or without strings? I can't name a single person.

If I can expand on that point slightly... Everyone alive got here from an intimate relationship (be it one fiery night or a life long marriage). Characters are no different (exotic races such as Sylvari excluded), and yet in games we are continuously presented with single characters - PC and NPC alike. Its not that I particularly care or want to know about every character's relationship(s), but it is ridiculously implausible for almost every character to be presented without.
Being an MMO, it would be silly to provide a romantic sideplot surrounding PCs. And while I don't care for the specifics, I do appreciate seeing NPCs together in a somewhat realistic way.... Being that anything is better then the vast majority of NPCs (much more any of importance) appearing to players as hopelessly single. >.<

I also think its important that characters should be multi-faceted. Just because they have a lasting relationship, are a village bicycle, or are hopelessly single does not mean that they can't do other things too. Well developed characters always do a variety of things and are never a "one horse show". Gwen is a pretty good example of this, and is probably the most well rounded NPC in GW1 (thus far).

Alathaea · Mar 19, 2011, 03:19 PM // 15:19

^^ I couldn't agree more.

Actually, I liked Gwen and Kieran's relationship because it wasn't ladled with melodrama. It was a background pulse to a larger plot, and that made it realistic.

Black Metal · Mar 19, 2011, 07:36 PM // 19:36

who said we've heard the last from Gwen?

distilledwill · Mar 29, 2011, 08:52 AM // 08:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Metal

who said we've heard the last from Gwen?

True - I think ANet would be missing a trick if they didn't include some Jerry Springer "get yo hands offa my man!" action once Winds of Change comes around.

Miku vs Gwen. My money's on The Goremonger.

Konig Des Todes · Mar 29, 2011, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Of course, that's assuming that Gwen and Keiran will even be a part of Winds of Change... Which nothing says they will be.

Red_Dragon56 · Mar 30, 2011, 02:20 AM // 02:20

I always hated that Gwen became feared among the Charr.

Then again. We all know full well that if anything it's our heroes that do all the REAL dirty work, and the woman just follows along and hogs the glory *coughkormircough*.

Excuse me!

K1D · Apr 29, 2011, 06:00 AM // 06:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red_Dragon56

I always hated that Gwen became feared among the Charr.

Then again. We all know full well that if anything it's our heroes that do all the REAL dirty work, and the woman just follows along and hogs the glory *coughkormircough*.

Excuse me!

It has become quite a predictable trend, has it not? Prophecies we have Evennia, Saidra, Salma(If you count War in Kryta), Factions we have Kuunavang (If you are going to call her as "She" and all of the girls follow that bald pimp, Nightfalls we have Kormir asking us to do her the dirty work, Eye of the North we have to do all the favor for Jora, Gwen, Livia, Hayda, Captain Langmar, just to get their help. Well, this does not count all those men that follow us to be the part of the fame we made.

Heh, I will not be surprised if they are going to give us more tagalongs-turn-into-famous-people in the new content.

But really, they could have killed Gwen in the Searing and made us see her as a spirit instead. At least it is far more tolerable than the current Femdom our hero and Keiran have to tolerate with.

draxynnic · May 01, 2011, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Destiny's Edge?

More seriously, though, I think you're not giving the NPCs enough credit. Lorewise, Saidra gave her life to distract a force that the un-infused PCs had no chance against. Otherwise... just because what the NPCs do isn't in the spotlight doesn't mean they aren't doing anything. The PCs are the best fighters among the "good guys", but the jobs of Evennia, Salma, Langmar and, when not tagging along with the heroes, Gwen are to lead the people who are doing what needs to be done when the godkilling PCs are more needed elsewhere, lack the needed (non-combat) skills, or total overkill.

Kuunavang can hardly be said to have done nothing. Those Celestial skills are powerful. My assumption is that having been corrupted by Shiro before, she didn't want to risk getting close enough for it to happen again.

Kormir, I think, was ANet's response to all the complaints about Rurik, Togo and Mhenlo getting themselves killed, so they made Kormir a do-nothing so they could have her be ignored by monsters as well. (And like Evennia and Salma, it could be said that she set the groundwork that allowed the PCs to succeed, both before the assault on Gandara and after being pulled into the Realm of Torment.)

Steps_Descending · May 02, 2011, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Metal

who said we've heard the last from Gwen?

Personally, I just think it's sad that, for now, the last we've seen of GWEN (not counting tales of the Goremonger) is a wedding. But that will hopefully be fixed, if not in GW1, in a book or (hopefully before) in GW2 when we'll probably get the tale of teh Goremonger.

Lufina · May 05, 2011, 06:27 AM // 06:27

Since we're seeing the story between Gwen and Keiran through the medium of a video game, the real reason that explains their marriage goes unnoticed:

Pheromones.

Spiritz · May 05, 2011, 03:30 PM // 15:30

I think if the "younger generation" asked the older generation who was around in ww1 and ww2 about love and relationships the younger side would discover that in times of war and instances where 2 or more ppl go thru anything thats life or death - a type of bond occurs and sometimes ppl will fall in love.And many times its ppl that fall in love who normally wouldnt fall for the other person even if they knew them.So looking at keiran and gwen - how they are doesnt surprise me at all.

Koniq - i can name 1 person straight off my head - my aunt of over 85 yrs of age - never married , as far as i know had never had a boyfriend and is still currently a spinster and shes never once said to me she regrets not mayying mr x or being married.
It does happen mate and its one of the things thats hard to believe as we take for granted every person wants a relationship.

Qing Guang · May 12, 2011, 01:00 AM // 01:00

I get what you're saying, OP, but all in all I wasn't that unhappy with it. I actually dislike it more when people assume you can't have a strong female character who also happens to have a healthy relationship with a man. (It's like my beef with the Bechdel test - it almost implies that women must not even think about men in order to be independent)

However, I did have a few problems with it, namely:
1. The "Defrosting Ice Queen" thing was played a little too bluntly.
2. I personally felt Keiran might have had better chemistry with Miku. Their parting seemed a bit forced, like ANet was all "okay get out of the way now; we need him to marry Gwen."
3. For something that also focused on Gwen's development, it seemed awkward that we only played as Keiran. It made her character development seem like a reaction to what was going on with him. I would have preferred to alternate between them for the solo missions.

It was an okay love story, but it could have been rather better.

ruk1a · May 30, 2011, 08:17 AM // 08:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by shinta_himura

Would you agree that if Gwen managed to rise above her strife and become the legendary founder of Ebonhawk alone (well, with her old friends, us of course), then that would have been a much more satisfying plot line?

Instead of actually doing anything good for Gwen, they killed yet another very important person to her (Langmar) and bumped in the typical male love interest. And suddenly she's yet another typical female lead. Gwen's plotline was such a captivating and interesting thing... meeting her again after all that time and reminiscing on the bittersweet past that you shared. Then... wintersday comes along... and everything just goes downhill from there... down hill and into someone's wallet (what a dramatic build up just to put some non-sense into the cash shop).

The meaning of love is simple: it exists to help bad writers. Oh and it helps NCSoft earn more money.

Maybe females shouldn't be so typical, just sayin'...

xxfah · Jun 20, 2011, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Sorry if it's already been said; I wanted to get my thought out there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iToasterHD

I can understand what Shinta is saying. it gets old that romance and love has to always wiggle their way into stories. Gwen's life (career) is more important than some romance or marriage and it belittles her character when they focus on her love life. Her getting married should be a footnote to her life, not the center of attention.

I would argue that love/marriage = relationships. Which is what being a person is all about. Yeah, Gwen's a tough cookie, but she's still human. We see a little bit of that in her interacting with Sarah in UW and how she talks about the Searing... but Gwen's also a grown woman, and there's no reason that she can't get married. It just does a little more to show that she's a person, just like the rest of us. She isn't one of the six and shouldn't be revered as one.
(not saying that you have to be married to be a person, just have a close, lasting relationship with someone. Like your BFF or twin brother. Those would also work.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by iToasterHD

Her getting married should be a footnote to her life, not the center of attention.

It was just a bit of end-game content. In the grand scheme, the wedding was only in the limelight for a minute. And, either way, a wedding is a huge event, and I don't see Gwen really letting "wife" be her only title.

RedDog91 · Jun 20, 2011, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by iToasterHD

I can understand what Shinta is saying. it gets old that romance and love has to always wiggle their way into stories. Gwen's life (career) is more important than some romance or marriage and it belittles her character when they focus on her love life.

Having a love interest gives more depth to an other-wise flat story. Same is true for both genders, people just like singling out the women with love interests to create drama.

Quote:

Her getting married should be a footnote to her life, not the center of attention.

Gwen is given all credit for her accomplishments in history. Keiran is never even mentioned. Even if Gwen was the one doing everything, you would think Keiran would also get mentioned at least once, specially since he is a soldier under her command and was likely at the same places fighting the same battles. Even Logan in GW2 is described in most writings as a descendent of Gwen, no mention of Keiran. The fact that he isn't mentioned leads me to believe he might die shortly after impregnating Gwen to continue the family-line down to Logan in GW2.