Curse

Slowpokeking · Jun 17, 2011, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Got a conversation before, I don't know why did some people were keep saying they are evil.

They killed many people, but they also saved the whole population of their kingdom before that. The Mursaat killed people not for fun, but to seal off the door, keep it from opening so the whole world won't have to face the Titans' wrath.. We can see in the time of the missions, once the souls were released, the TItans came out. Before you could find a way to keep the door shut, don't say there is other ways.

RedDog91 · Jun 17, 2011, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Your forum username explains a lot about this post...
It has all been discussed in great depth one multiple occasions.

The Mursaat saved Saul D'Alessio and his village and then immediately killed everyone but 3 White Mantle members. They told those three that they were the most devoted and sent them to gather followers. Followers that would do their bidding and kill innocent people atop the bloodstones to keep the Door of Komalie closed because the Titans behind the door are the only thing that can defeat them. They aren't intending on protecting anyone, they just don't want to be wiped out.
Vizier Khilbron tricks the players into opening the door in order to wipe out the Mursaat. However, Vizier Khilbron's intent is to instead use the Scepter of Orr to control the Titans and destroy the human kingdoms, as ordered by Abbadon, the dark god who wanted to plunge the world into darkness.

The Mursaat are/were an endangered race that despised humans and only put up with a few in order to unsure their race's survival.

Da Mystic Reaper · Jun 17, 2011, 11:02 PM // 23:02

That is something that has me bothered as well, their goal is not your typical goal an antagonist would do. Seeing how the player is being manipulated by the Lich from Sanctum Cay onwards to fulfil the Flameseeker Prophecies, wich has releasing the titans as goal. The Mursaat have been executing chosen people who could fulfill the Flameseeker Prophecies and used their souls to strenghten the seals guarding the Door of Komalie and effectively prevent the titans from entering Tyria. The way they do it is also a very effective method; using the ones that pose a threat to power the seals instead trough sacrifice. Altough their actions are explained as evil and trough eyes of the human race are seen as evil it ends up being for a greater good. And with that piece of knowledge you can indeed question if they really are evil or are their actions simply misunderstood.

Slowpokeking · Jun 17, 2011, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

Your forum username explains a lot about this post...
It has all been discussed in great depth one multiple occasions.

The Mursaat saved Saul D'Alessio and his village and then immediately killed everyone but 3 White Mantle members. They told those three that they were the most devoted and sent them to gather followers. Followers that would do their bidding and kill innocent people atop the bloodstones to keep the Door of Komalie closed because the Titans behind the door are the only thing that can defeat them. They aren't intending on protecting anyone, they just don't want to be wiped out.
Vizier Khilbron tricks the players into opening the door in order to wipe out the Mursaat. However, Vizier Khilbron's intent is to instead use the Scepter of Orr to control the Titans and destroy the human kingdoms, as ordered by Abbadon, the dark god who wanted to plunge the world into darkness.

The Mursaat are/were an endangered race that despised humans and only put up with a few in order to unsure their race's survival.

Yeah, before they killed these people they saved the whole Kryta's people from the charr. Too sad you didn't see it.

No, the Lich's goal was the whole Tyria, he said it many times. I don't know why would you say he simply wanted to destroy the human kingdoms.

Also where did it say they didn't think about the world? Their methods saved far many more people than they killed.

Ailina · Jun 17, 2011, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slowpokeking

Yeah, before they killed these people they saved the whole Kryta's people from the charr. Too sad you didn't see it.

No, the Lich's goal was the whole Tyria, he said it many times. I don't know why would you say he simply wanted to destroy the human kingdoms.

Also where did it say they didn't think about the world? Their methods saved far many more people than they killed.

First of all, saying condescending and arrogant things like "too sad you didn't see it [my point]" is NOT conducive to a productive lore discussion.

Second of all, read the wiki article on the Mursaat. That is where as much of the known lore on the Mursaat is compiled. It directly refutes many of your arguments.

"The White Mantle and their Unseen gods rose to power during the war with the charr. Their grasp of Kryta was practically absolute when Saul and the elite of the White Mantle went on a suicide mission to assassinate the charr leaders in their main encampment. Though the plan succeeded, the rest of the charr army rained down upon them. In this moment, three mursaat - Optimus Caliph, Mercia the Smug and Lazarus the Dire - appeared and fought beside the Mantle, decimating the charr with their devastating magic. The charr were defeated and Kryta was saved - but at a high price.

When the charr were defeated, the mursaat turned on the White Mantle and murdered most of them. Saul was taken away by the mursaat as he realized his error in following them. Only three Mantle members were spared: Dorian, Hablion, and Thommis. The three survivors, whom the mursaat had deemed most devoted, told the Krytans that Saul had been killed by charr during their retreat back over the Shiverpeak Mountains."

Have you done the War in Kryta stuff? Remember those White Mantle who were/are killing and subjecting the populace? Well, those guys were the followers of the Mursaat; the Mursaat put them in power. That's pretty damn evil.

Also, as RedDog91 said above, they didn't care about saving Tyria, they cared about saving themselves. Their motives were selfish, not altruistic. Remember, the Flameseeker Prophecies did NOT say that opening the Door of Komalie would wipe out the world, only that it would wipe out the Mursaat, so the Mursaat did not think they were saving the world by keeping it closed. They didn't know what was behind the door, only that it being open would mean their deaths. Hence the sacrificing of the humans to keep that door closed.

Slowpokeking · Jun 17, 2011, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ailina

First of all, saying condescending and arrogant things like "too sad you didn't see it [my point]" is NOT conducive to a productive lore discussion.

Second of all, read the wiki article on the Mursaat. That is where as much of the known lore on the Mursaat is compiled. It directly refutes many of your arguments.

"The White Mantle and their Unseen gods rose to power during the war with the charr. Their grasp of Kryta was practically absolute when Saul and the elite of the White Mantle went on a suicide mission to assassinate the charr leaders in their main encampment. Though the plan succeeded, the rest of the charr army rained down upon them. In this moment, three mursaat - Optimus Caliph, Mercia the Smug and Lazarus the Dire - appeared and fought beside the Mantle, decimating the charr with their devastating magic. The charr were defeated and Kryta was saved - but at a high price.

When the charr were defeated, the mursaat turned on the White Mantle and murdered most of them. Saul was taken away by the mursaat as he realized his error in following them. Only three Mantle members were spared: Dorian, Hablion, and Thommis. The three survivors, whom the mursaat had deemed most devoted, told the Krytans that Saul had been killed by charr during their retreat back over the Shiverpeak Mountains."

Have you done the War in Kryta stuff? Remember those White Mantle who were/are killing and subjecting the populace? Well, those guys were the followers of the Mursaat; the Mursaat put them in power. That's pretty damn evil.

Also, as RedDog91 said above, they didn't care about saving Tyria, they cared about saving themselves. Their motives were selfish, not altruistic. Remember, the Flameseeker Prophecies did NOT say that opening the Door of Komalie would wipe out the world, only that it would wipe out the Mursaat, so the Mursaat did not think they were saving the world by keeping it closed. They didn't know what was behind the door, only that it being open would mean their deaths. Hence the sacrificing of the humans to keep that door closed.

Yeah what you quoted proved my point, they killed some but saved more.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_F...ker_Prophecies

Quote:

How could I have been so blind? All this time I trusted Vizier Khilbron's counsel and thought he had all our best interests at heart, while in truth everything he did was to further his own agenda. I did what everyone asked of me. I opened the Door of Komalie but to my dismay I learned that the door held back the evil titans and the Mursaat were actually attempting to protect the world from their wrath. After the door cracked, the Vizier revealed himself to be a Lich Lord and took control of the titans with the Scepter of Orr. With the Mursaat in shambles, there is no one left to stop the Lich but me. I have little time before he sends his titans across Tyria to rule the world.

Where did it say that they don't know what's behind the door?

snowman relic · Jun 18, 2011, 12:14 AM // 00:14

The way i see the Mursaat is they want to be gods and they filled the role well. saved followers from a fearsome enemy (charr) then later killed all but the deepest believers and then they heard of the litch's plan and like it was said in iron man "If You Can Make God Bleed, Then People Will Cease to Believe in Him" they didn't want the titans which would defeat them to come out of komali and usurp them. sorry for any lore mishaps this is what i remember from proph last i played several years ago

Slowpokeking · Jun 18, 2011, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Also I replied like that because he said the post got something to do with my ID

I really didn't get the point why would so many people think the Mursaat didn't know what's behind the door. They didn't say it.

I will add more info after get home. Later.

tacotown · Jun 18, 2011, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flameseeker Prophecies

I opened the Door of Komalie but to my dismay I learned that the door held back the evil titans and the Mursaat were actually attempting to protect the world from their wrath.

@SPK
Your quote from the Flameseeker Prophecies item is just subjective interpretation and written record that the main character has of past events. The information within is not complete nor absolutely correct. Your quote even starts off with "How could I have been so blind?", implying wrongness. To quote from something potentially wrong is poor form.

Ailina and Reddog pose good arguments which you seem to have misunderstood. Perhaps reading up on those other threads may help clear up your misunderstanding.

shinta_himura · Jun 18, 2011, 01:09 AM // 01:09

The Mursaat seemed to be very reclusive and passive in the world previous to the Prophecies.

It wasn't until the Prophecies started that they went on a bitch-fit evil tyrade.

Slowpokeking · Jun 18, 2011, 01:58 AM // 01:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by tacotown

@SPK
Your quote from the Flameseeker Prophecies item is just subjective interpretation and written record that the main character has of past events. The information within is not complete nor absolutely correct. Your quote even starts off with "How could I have been so blind?", implying wrongness. To quote from something potentially wrong is poor form.

Ailina and Reddog pose good arguments which you seem to have misunderstood. Perhaps reading up on those other threads may help clear up your misunderstanding.

Then how did they judge the Mursaat by saying their are selfish and didn't know what's behind, that's not subjective? Without giving any proof? I also pointed some mistakes in their thread.

I really don't know why would they say the Mursaat didn't know what's behind it.

Firstly, they were a powerful race that could easily take on most of the mortals, even the seers found way to defend they still lost. Why would such a powerful race simply believe the prophecy and afraid of what's behind the door without knowing the facts? Also it's a whole race, it's just like someone tell US there's something beneath Mexico that will wipe them out, sure some people might believe it, like Meeker in the game, but it's not logical that such a powerful race would believe it without knowing what's behind it.

Secondly, a very important point. The White Mantle was taking the Scepter of Orr as a very important task, even Confessor Dorian came to see it. In the game we saw how heavily was it guarded. The Mursaat is powerful enough to rule what they got. It's also a very good evidence that shows they know what's behind the door. Sure prophecy also said about it, but what made them to believe it?

Third, it's what the heroes judge upon all he saw and know, including that the Mursaat killed so many chosen.

Konig gave some points about that, the Lich could open the door after the seals are removed, the lava might cover the seal, the lich's soul didn't recharge the battery. So I went to watch the Cutscene on youtube.

The door was already opened before the Lich comes here.

We can see clearly that the soul battery was recharged by the energy. Yes maybe the Lich escaped later, but he surely provided enough energy to seal the gate off. Also it happened before the lava spill out.

draxynnic · Jun 18, 2011, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Rather than watching the cutscene, go and do the mission. Khilbron gives us the Chimera of Intensity right before we assault the soul batteries - its far from unfeasible that he could have been waiting to use the Sceptre of Orr to blow open the door as soon as the lock was broken.

Now, it's certainly possible, even likely, that there are good or at least non-evil mursaat caught in all that - but even if their actions had some good results, the way they went about it was evil. Just because someone fights evil doesn't mean they're good, especially if they use evil means to do so. In fact, it's a fairly common villain template to have someone who uses evil means for the "good" of their victims - that's the whole theme behind Babylon 5.

And as Konig has said, we've seen no evidence of dissent among the mursaat, while in the case of the human nation that went evil (Kourna) pretty much everyone who wasn't in the military was upset at where things were going, and if not for dissenters in the military it would at least have been harder to stop Nightfall. Kourna was a land where an evil regime sat over a heterogenous population. The mursaat - we have no evidence of dissent, even if it's possible that that's just because we weren't in the right places to see it.

Regarding the question of the Flameseeker Prophecies - we simply don't know what Glint's reason for releasing those are. My suspicion is that it formed an elaborate trap - Glint realised that one way or another the Door of Komalie would be opened, so the Prophecies were used as a lure to ensure that it did the least harm (and possibly caused some benefit) in the process. Of course, the fact that Glint appears to be allied to the Seers implicates that putting the mursaat in the line of fire might not have been strictly necessary...

...but maybe it was. We simply don't know.

Either way, in Glint's opinion the failure of the Flameseeker Prophecies would have resulted in humanity's eradication. That's a pretty bad outcome if you happen to be human. On the question of why the mursaat believe the prophecy - unlike in the real world, they live in a world where magic is real, and it's possible they know of Glint's abilities. It doesn't seem so farfetched that the mursaat may give credence to the words of a former dragon champion turned champion of the gods when she predicts something

As was mentioned in the other forum, though - this question has come up regularly, and usually ends up going around in circles - and, frankly, those of us who've seen the cycle repeat multiple times are a little tired of it. To be fair, the possibility is open that the mursaat were simply caught in a bad situation doing what they felt they had to do to survive... but that doesn't mean their motives are good - at best, it's an act of desparation for their own survival. If they'd explained the situation and asked for volunteers that would be something different, but even then there could likely have been other options if they were willing to work with other races rather than kill them.

Either way, do try to keep the discussion polite, or I'll be forced to step on it like Leon did in the Priory.

Slowpokeking · Jun 18, 2011, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Well still, we didn't see it happens, he could use his spell on us because we were so close at that time, if he could do it, why not keep that spell on us when he's far away? It's surely a lower rank spell than break the door.

What was the evil mean? Save their kind with the world, I don't think it's something wrong. Well. Even if save their kind is not evil for sure. Like real world, good people also kills good people sometimes, like the War of Troy, many of the Greek soldiers are good, but is Troy people evil? Is the perfect hero Hector evil? Don't get it wrong I'm not saying the Mursaat are good. If you say kill the chosen, well, they killed that to prevent a bigger doom, they also saved the whole kingdom before. Overall, they still saved more humans than the numbers killed, without them, Kryta would suffer the same fate as Orr, with more resources and lands, the Charr would grow even stronger, I doubt Ascalon could even hold for that long.

Glint's prophecy cause big disaster, the death of chosen, the invasion of the titans, countless souls went into the Foundry of Failed Creations to create more titans. We all know she's not evil, then her prophecy's possible good income is Kryta's survival and the Door's seal off. I have to say Glint used the Mursaat like the Lich used us.

Well the Elder Dragons went to sleep long long long ago. We don't know did the Mursaat know about those dudes, remember the Elder Dragons fall alseep after they wiped almost everything. The Mursaat are also very powerful themselves, don't need to be afraid of Glint, why would they believe Glint's words without knowing any fact? I don't remember she make prophecy before, only read others' minds.

I'm not saying they are good, either, I think they are a harsh but overall neutral race. Many people blame them for their "selfishness", but again we are not sure about how much did they know about the Titans(Looks more like they should know about the Titans). Yes they put themselves before others, chose to kill humans when the door need soul energy to be shut off. But let's ask: Will we, humans do the opposite when make that choice? Will we, the individuals put stranger's life before our own when someone has to die otherwise we are all doomed? There's a huge difference between "think about themselves first" and "think only about themselves" right?

tacotown · Jun 18, 2011, 08:15 AM // 08:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slowpokeking

Then how did they judge the Mursaat by saying their are selfish and didn't know what's behind, that's not subjective?Without giving any proof? I also pointed some mistakes in their thread.

i'm glad we're on the same page that morality is subjective. i'm also glad someone took care of those pesky mistakes.

the rest of your post is misdirected at me, i'm afraid. you don't have to convince me that the mursaat were honorable world-guardians(or manipulative murderers).

Slowpokeking · Jun 18, 2011, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by tacotown

i'm glad we're on the same page that morality is subjective. i'm also glad someone took care of those pesky mistakes.

the rest of your post is misdirected at me, i'm afraid. you don't have to convince me that the mursaat were honorable world-guardians(or manipulative murderers).

Of course they are not, I already said, they are a harsh but overall neutral race.

Piippo · Jun 18, 2011, 05:40 PM // 17:40

The Mursaat were doing a good job keeping the Door sealed, even if it might have been just for their own survival. However, the way they kept it sealed (human sacrifices) was questionable.

Slowpokeking · Jun 18, 2011, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piippo

The Mursaat were doing a good job keeping the Door sealed, even if it might have been just for their own survival. However, the way they kept it sealed (human sacrifices) was questionable.

Like I said, will the humans do the opposite, sacrifices themselves rather than use Mursaat? It's just most of the races' nature.

Also, they save them all from the charr before.

synbios_kun · Jun 19, 2011, 06:07 AM // 06:07

There's a difference between willing(Master Togo giving up his life to protect his half-brother) and unwilling sacrifices(the Chosen being slaughtered on the Bloodstone), by the way.

sajuuk_khar · Jun 19, 2011, 07:32 AM // 07:32

I personally think the Mursaat have influenced far more then we know. If the Mursaat runes in the Hall of Judgement are canon to the Lore it would open up a HUGE series of questions becuase the Hall of Judgement has links to buildings and other structures across Tyira and Elona.

RedDog91 · Jun 19, 2011, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Just realized you made pretty much the same thread on GW2 guru and get angry at anyone that doesn't agree with your lore-breaking opinion(s) there also.

My suggestion would be to not be set on one idea and instead read every lore page about the subject on the wiki. And do so with a fresh mind. Leave every idea you have behind before reading, otherwise you'll continue to try and mold every sentence to fit your personal idea what what it should be.