Curse

shinta_himura · Oct 28, 2011, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Let's consider the following:

Dhuum has the ability to regain his power whenever something dies. In fact it's so over powered that he can create his own minions, and gain energy from them when they die. He experiences at least an equal return or an "energy profit" when he creates a minion, because the players are warned not to kill the skeletons or they will contribute to his release. With enough power regained, he is able to break out of the Reaper's seal.

In the next three centuries there are going to be a lot of things contributing to a larger death-count than the world is currently experiencing. All of the dragons will be awakening, Zaitan will be spawning / unearthing tons of undead minions to form his army. Primordus will be creating new life from stone. Creatures around the world will be corrupted by whoever that dragon is that corrupts things, putting a lot of things on Death Row when the heroes come around to take care of that.

The Elder Dragons are on par with the gods themselves, the most anyone on Tyria has ever had to face was one god, and he was restrained and at a considerable deficit.

The heroic potential of the planet's occupants is going to be pushed to its limit (unless Anet cheeses out and attributes the fall of the dragons to some stupid Asuran mega laser... hmm).

We should hope that Dhuum repeatedly releasing himself is a canon event. We know that he will eventually release himself again if left unchecked, but we don't know if it has only happened once in Guild Wars 1 lore, or multiple times. If it only happened once, who's to say that people aren't going to forget this little inconvenience when the sh*t really hits in the fan in GW2?

Even if they don't forget, with all of the strain created by the Dragon's on the planets population of heroes, and all of the power flowing into him, Dhuum is going to have a field day with Grenth's Reapers and their barely working seal.

How can the future inhabitants of Tyria permanently deal with both the Dragon's and Dhuum? Not even Grenth can kill him, the Asura sure as hell aren't going to be able to Mega Laser him to death if Grenth can't. What if Dhuum waits until the Dragons are dead, while killing all of the Reapers (who can't reseal him on their own without help).

You don't need to destroy a god to get their respective position, as Dhuum was still alive when Grenth claimed the title God of Death. So could Dhuum usurp that title again while Grenth is preoccupied elsewhere? If you're the God of Death, are you the God for the entire universe or just the planet / your realm in the Mists?

Konig Des Todes · Oct 28, 2011, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by shinta_himura

In the next three centuries there are going to be a lot of things contributing to a larger death-count than the world is currently experiencing.

Gotta stop you right there.

Deaths in the Underworld make Dhuum stronger. Not deaths in Tyria.

Except for your last paragraph, the rest of your post falls apart from that misunderstanding. And also the fact that the gods have distanced themselves from Tyria thus Tyrians wouldn't hear of Dhuum's freedom if it happened (hell, do Tyrians even know of Dhuum? The only mention we have of him is from fellas from the Underworld... perhaps they erased knowledge on him like they did with Abaddon, but with a lot more precision due to the additional amount of time).

xMinimalism · Oct 28, 2011, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Deaths in the Underworld make Dhuum stronger. Not deaths in Tyria.

Better hope that there aren't a bunch of newbie groups trying out UW between now and GW2's release. *snicker*

Konig Des Todes · Oct 28, 2011, 06:19 AM // 06:19

Personally, I interpret that (repeated) line as meaning that deaths of souls. The bodies of failed groups just feed the Bone Pits to create more of those giant shambling piles of flesh.

Swingline · Oct 28, 2011, 07:54 AM // 07:54

We didn't kill Dhuum so its safe to say he will make an appearance in GW2.

Bristlebane · Oct 28, 2011, 10:12 AM // 10:12

I'm sure he'll make a comeback.. as a ban feature just like GW1.

Coast · Oct 28, 2011, 12:48 PM // 12:48

he will create a new boss in fow so they will be man and wife and then create more evil creatures we need to fight with all our power

shinta_himura · Oct 28, 2011, 07:03 PM // 19:03

How could tyrians not know? It was a huge deal, and Thorn had his candy people stationed in Lion's Arch looking for people to deal with it.

Konig Des Todes · Oct 29, 2011, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Would all Tyrians know of the on-goings of the Mists and the gods? Would people believe new information of a returning god of death (or would they view the sayings of Mad King Thorn's men and "hired" adventurers as insane)?

Not to mention that in an interview a while back, there was mention that some happenings of the PC's actions won't be known to the world but rather could be stories passed down from generation to generation - the encounter with Glint in Prophecies was used as an example.

And we don't know how many people actually looked into Dhuum's re-emergence.

Furthermore, after Nightfall the gods became more and more distanced (it didn't happen around GW2 but GW1, despite how its worded at times), so with the distancing of the gods already in ploy (but not necessarily witnessed), a "new" god returning wouldn't be too well known outside the above situations. Lastly, there's also Grenth's continued "appearance" (quotations used due to it being avatars not the gods themselves) during Wintersday at this same time - if Dhuum was returning, folks would be hesitant to believe that Grenth would spend time with festivities like Wintersday.

draxynnic · Nov 01, 2011, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Well, people who know about Dhuum may know about some of his intentions and be able to draw conclusions...

Dhuum, for instance, is supposed to disallow resurrection magic and the creation of undead. Well, resurrection magic seems to no longer exist in GW2 (the worst PCs can ever get is 'mostly dead' before being pulled away to a waypoint and nursed back to health), but undead certainly do seem to. On the other hand, the creation of undead still seems to be going strong...

...although it's possible that Dhuum can't really do much about already existing undead, undead that aren't created with souls, or undead that were created with their souls before their souls managed to get to the Underworld in the first place. The Mad King's concern, for instance, is because the Mad King himself is based in the Underworld for most nights of the year.

Certainly, it seems as if it's no longer possible to bring souls back from the Underworld so conveniently, but this could just be a change of policy on Grenth's part. However, this does allow for some means of testing whether Dhuum has gained some control over the Underworld - if the Mad King continues returning, for instance, that would imply that Dhuum hasn't seized control.

Konig Des Todes · Nov 01, 2011, 05:57 PM // 17:57

I think the "no resurrection" is more of a mechanical standpoint to allow solo play (people are defeated and it would seem weird when mixing mechanics and lore that dead folks can teleport their own body). It'll be interesting if/when we see people in story having resurrection (a fun way to make a complete 180 on the whole plot-twist-hole of resurrection not being available in the story turn-points).

Shady Guy · Nov 01, 2011, 10:07 PM // 22:07

I would like to see Dhuum free by GW2, but with a spin on his character. He plays the ancient dark and evil god bit fine, but we've had Abaddon in that part already and Menzies if he ever shows up. In short we have other foes that can and do fulfill this type or role. I find the possibility of Dhuum as a neutral or benevolent character much more interesting. With the relatively small amount of content there actually is about Dhuum, there is room for his character to be cast in a different light.

I have yet to see any take on Death as a villain make an interesting character, but good guy reapers can be quite the opposite. A certain Reaper Man who shares Dhuum's affinity for capital letters comes to mind. Grenth doesn't accomplish this for several reasons, but since it isn't strictly on topic I won't go into why I personally find Grenth far from an ideal Ferryman figure. I will point out that the two main jobs he seems to do are managing the Underworld and granting powers of undeath to mortals. One makes him more like Osiris or Hades than Anubis and Charon, the other is practically the exact opposite of death personified.

So I point to the possibility of Dhuum either reforming in the near future, or not being as bad in the first place as previously indicated. This would be a good way to reintroduce him into the story without merely playing out new versions of the content we have already seen of him and an opportunity to play with a Death character. Even if the 6 gods retreat from the world, that would not be a luxury he would have.

The rift between Dhuum and his followers could be viewed as Dhuum's staunch refusal for any act of charity to the deceased. As a god he had the power prolong the 'lives' of their spirits but chose not to. Like a doctor standing over a dying man, this could easily be viewed as cruel and unjust. It could even be taken as a vindictive desire to hunt down any who 'cheat' him. Death is punctual, and the inability to cheat it is perhaps more a statement of fact than a goal. In actuality, he might not mind the continued life of a spirit at all. All things must die in the end, even Grenth and the reapers, but the more there was of life the more significant the death.

draxynnic · Nov 02, 2011, 01:25 PM // 13:25

@Konig: That would be an interesting turnaround, but I think ANet has said that one of the reasons they've done it this way is to preserve the impact of NPC death without that creating a jarring plothole with resurrection magic being cheap and easy. It's possible that there will be resurrection in the plot, but I'd expect it to prove to be an elaborate and difficult ritual and quest, possibly involving paying a personal visit to Grenth or one of his representatives to receive permission to bring the soul back.

@Shady Guy: The problem with that hypothesis is that Dhuum's unjustness to the dead appears to be that he consumes and destroys their spirits. He's not a Charon or Anubis figure but an Ammut, devouring the souls of the dead without the benefit of giving them a test of worthiness to an afterlife. (It's possible that there is such a test, in that the other gods might be able to claim the soul of a follower before Dhuum gets it, but any soul that went to Dhuum was, well, doomed to oblivion.)

Better analogues for the ferrymen would be the Envoys in Factions, which do seem more like the post-Mort Discworld Death - they collect the souls of the dead, but they aren't in any hurry to do so prematurely, and they don't have any influence in the afterlife after they've discharged their responsibility.

Shady Guy · Nov 02, 2011, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

@Konig: That would be an interesting turnaround, but I think ANet has said that one of the reasons they've done it this way is to preserve the impact of NPC death without that creating a jarring plothole with resurrection magic being cheap and easy. It's possible that there will be resurrection in the plot, but I'd expect it to prove to be an elaborate and difficult ritual and quest, possibly involving paying a personal visit to Grenth or one of his representatives to receive permission to bring the soul back.

@Shady Guy: The problem with that hypothesis is that Dhuum's unjustness to the dead appears to be that he consumes and destroys their spirits. He's not a Charon or Anubis figure but an Ammut, devouring the souls of the dead without the benefit of giving them a test of worthiness to an afterlife. (It's possible that there is such a test, in that the other gods might be able to claim the soul of a follower before Dhuum gets it, but any soul that went to Dhuum was, well, doomed to oblivion.)

Better analogues for the ferrymen would be the Envoys in Factions, which do seem more like the post-Mort Discworld Death - they collect the souls of the dead, but they aren't in any hurry to do so prematurely, and they don't have any influence in the afterlife after they've discharged their responsibility.

I would agree with all that you've said here. The envoys are in the Anubis role right now, and even if Dhuum returned in a way similar to the possibility I mentioned they would remain the most like Charon. Many of the ideas you can toy with for Dhuum could also easily be done with them, but there is a very key difference between them and a Death figure in actual religions. No matter what one's faith and belief in particular afterlives, there is a mystery and uncertainty to the whole business. This is not as present in Tyria, we may not have seen all of the mists but we seem to have a good general idea.

Dhuum's nature is something I've attempted to look into, paging through the wiki files and posts here for new information. I welcome any corrections because I am sure I've missed references to him. As you mention though, Dhuum appears to be quite cruel and unjust, and very well may be. But there is room for those appearances to be incorrect.
In the matter of him being similar to Ammet, we know that he gains power when things seem to truly die. He claims to be the actual embodiment of death. If this is true, whether he began life as that or somehow became this he may gain power simply because the act of dying makes him more real. The fact that he gains power when anything dies in the Underworld even while he is trapped makes this appear slightly more likely than him consuming the souls. This would also explain why he can't be killed, he would only disappear when the last living soul in that world has died.

Its hard to say if the 'True Gods' operate in the highest form of reality, whether or not they really understand all the intricacies of the universe. Some other religions in GW have left the door open for this not to be the case, as well as some of their personal history. The Underworld we know of is really just another kind of life, but without knowing the gods' relation to the universe its hard to even say if Dhuum's brand of death actually represents oblivion or something stranger.

On a previous point by Draxynnic, even if Dhuum is as evil as he appears and does escape, Mad King and similar figures could still show up. Dhuum breaking free might signal the start of a war with Grenth akin to the battle between Balthazar and Menzies rather than a complete takeover. Mad King could still show up or even gain more power over the mortal world in the chaos, if Grenth has less time to focus on daily management and Mad King can avoid Dhuum's soldiers. On a side note, my apologies for prattling on so. I am thoroughly unable to keep things short no matter how I try.

draxynnic · Nov 03, 2011, 03:03 AM // 03:03

I'm a bit busy to do it myself right now, but one of the things that might be worth doing is looking up the history of the Dhuum-related Halloween quests to get their initial 2009 dialogue. The current versions seem to be assuming that the PC already knows full well what sort of threat Dhuum would pose if he escapes.

Shady Guy · Nov 04, 2011, 08:14 PM // 20:14

I had a look, only the description of the first quest has much of interest. Even that though only tells things that we already know, the Frozenwind and the steward beleive Dhuum will cast an eternal night on the world, and spell complete death for all things. I would assume the night is a metaphor, and they make it sound as if he would immediately wipe out the world, but probably it just means he would force everything to be destroyed when they die.

The Only Warrior · Dec 09, 2011, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Deaths in the Underworld make Dhuum stronger. Not deaths in Tyria.

Therefore, the only way to ensure Dhumm is Never realesed is to stop all deaths in the UW.
List of things i would do if i were Grenth:
1. Block all entrances to Underworld. This ensures noobies will not empower him.
2. Enlist the help of the Madking, The Other Gods, and the most elite of Tyria to completely clear ALL servants of Dhumm and Creatures of Chaos inhabiting the Underworld. This ensures that no soul will die accidentally or purposely.
3. Use the now unified forces of the Underworld(including Grenth himself) to defeat the, now fully-powered, Dhumm in a 1 final fight, destroying ALL sources of his power in 1 shot.
4. Turn the Underworld into an "Elysia" or "Haven" for lost/dead souls.
5. Turn guard duty of the new "Haven" over to the Madking. (his jokes should be torture enough for the bad souls)
6. Commit the Full power of the Reapers to maintaining the Barrier(and the Madking) just incase.
7. Sit back and enjoy the unlimited/unopposed supply of power being poured in from tyria.

Seeing as ANET plans to "distance" the gods from GW2, this seems a logical way to end the story of UW, leaving room to create an entirely new storyline for this area.

Problem Solved. You're Welcome.
~Signed~ Obviously smarter then grenth.

Now...on to Fow... this should be cake....

Konig Des Todes · Dec 09, 2011, 08:25 AM // 08:25

Except that Thorn doesn't really seem contempt with aiding Grenth (considering how his lackies are flooding the Underworld with new souls in order to distract the god). And that the other gods may or may not have their own problems (Balthazar does). And maybe Dhuum is right in that he cannot die, being the god of death and all - former or not.

And even if they kill all of Dhuum's (known) forces, nothing would really stop demons - beings created by the Mists themselves who are all about bringing chaos (this is according to the Nightfall manual entry for demons) - from causing chaos, aiding in Dhuum's eventual escape, and perhaps even serving him. After all, they did the same for Abaddon, and some already seem to follow Dhuum *coughDryderscough*

Not to mention there's implications that the gods are unable to fix their own realms for unknown reasons.

draxynnic · Dec 13, 2011, 06:13 AM // 06:13

In fact, that seems to be part of the complication of the Spawning Pits - what they spawn is demons. The Terrorweb Dryders appear to have (at least mostly) allied with Dhuum, but they do seem to be spawning independantly, and according to the Reaper there there are worse things beneath the tar.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 13, 2011, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Eh? Spawns demons? Says what? Certainly not the only thing that I can find that mentions what comes from the Spawning Pools:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper of the Spawning Pools

There are even more foul things to be found in the bubbling deep. It is said that before a child has a nightmare, the beast must first be created here in the Spawning Pools, for only if it truly exists can it inspire fear in the mortal realm. It is right for you to be afraid. If there ever was a place on this world or the next to be feared, this would be it.

The Spawning Pool is only credited with creating nightmares in dreams. In fact, other than the Mists as a whole, the only place credited for spawning demons is the Stygian Veil - and then only by the Dreadspawn Maw.