Curse

Aeve Haleheart · Sep 03, 2012, 03:58 AM // 03:58

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Note (29/1/2015): This study is outdated - a more recent version can be found here:

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/...-golden-birds/

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THE UNSEEN ONES: A FACTUAL AND SPECULATIVE STUDY OF THE MURSAAT

The real test of a Believer is his range of sight
Faith does not require clear vision
But rather an acceptance of what is truly there
-- Oath of the Unseen

Foreword

The following will be a summary of both fact and fiction. It will entail most of what we, the player, encounter about the Mursaat in-game, as well as theories and hypotheses based upon these facts, most of which are my own. As such, I would invite you to continue reading with a broad and open mind, and with respect to the beliefs of others. Lore allows us to expand our mind and venture on beyond what is presented as fact, and to move freely in a rich and powerful world. It is through such methods that we come to new and different ways of understanding.

I. Intro

“There are two types of humans in Kryta: those who worship the mysterious Unseen Ones and those who do not.” – The Guild Wars Manuscripts

Since the inception of Guild Wars, no race has ever captured the imagination and fascination of its players like the Mursaat have. Countless of threads on a multitude of forums have been dedicated to trying to understand who or what these creatures are, where they come from and why they do what they do.

To me, their popularity can be attributed to their mysterious nature, awesome power, ambiguous motives and impressive appearance. In this summary, I shall touch a diverse number of topics, ranging from established facts to recent discoveries, as well as plausible and obscure theories. The intent of this writing is simple: to give an insight into my visions on some aspects regarding the Mursaat, but above all, to further increase the reverence that this awesome race so very much deserves. I hope you will enjoy.

II. Description

The Mursaat are a race of humanoid spellcasters. They wear golden robes and golden armor, and hover above the ground.

The Mursaat, as a species, are solely spellcasters. Being part of the original campaign, they consist of necromancers, elementalists, monks and mesmers.
Note: for those of you interested, Quintus Antonius began an effort some time ago to translate the Greek/Anglo-Saxon names of these bosses. For more on this, I refer to his work:

http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...t#.UEEilNaTtcQ

III. The Divine Caretakers

"Won't be long now. The Divine Caretakers have prepared for the coming of the undead." – White Mantle Seeker

The Mursaat are worshipped by the White Mantle as gods. The Mursaat think of themselves as gods. But in what capacity are they truly divine? What exactly makes a god?

In a way, the Mursaat can indeed be thought of as divine creatures, at least to some degree. They are creatures that have lived for a very long time, since the time of the writing of the tome of the Rubicon, and have had a profound influence on the history of Tyria. Much like the Old Gods, the Mursaat can bestow upon their followers the gift of magic, albeit a very specific kind of magic. This fact can be witnessed when Saul is given the powerful gift of ‘spectral agony’.

"To you, we give our greatest blessing. Wield it with care, for its effects are devastating." – Optimus Caliph

The Mursaat are worshipped by their followers as divine creatures. The White Mantle propagate very clearly the idea that their Unseen Masters are indeed beings of the divine, with knowledge and power beyond that of a mere mortal. In addition, the Mursaat can, in a way, create life by animating pieces of jade into self-thinking, autonomous creatures with devastating power. However, not all jade constructs seem to be the result of being directly animated by the Mursaat. The following takes place when the player is about to confront Markis. The jade construct brakes free from the jade tower seemingly by itself:

But, this issue is rendered irrelevant when considering that in both cases, the Mursaat would be responsible for the creation of the jade construct. Therefore, neither alternative diminishes the capability of the Mursaat of creating ‘life’, insofar that sentient jade animations can be considered as such.

Now, back to the question of the divine. I think, above all, the fact that the Mursaat are among the most powerful beings in all of Tyria, strengthens their claim of being divine the most. But does all of this truly make them divine?

We thought them gods. I think they thought themselves divine as well, until the Titans nearly wiped them out.” – Justiciar Naveed

The Mursaat are anything but. The White Mantle believed they were. The Mursaat may have believed it themselves. But they were not. It is interesting to delve into the hearts and minds of the Mursaat, to try and understand their deep-rooted desire to become gods, or at least to be perceived as such. This, sadly, would require more information on their background and origin.

IV. The Golden Birds

“A host of gleaming angels...no not angels but birds...carrion birds...bright and terrible as the sun.” – Dark Oak

"Over the bones of the bird of prey, the fire is put out.” – Vision of Glint

The Mursaat are in many ways related to birds. Birds of prey, to be more precise. Why this is, is as of yet a mystery. But there must be a specific reason for this connection. What this reason is, will hopefully be revealed to us in the near future.

Now, imagine in your mind, a Mursaat. Talons on their hands. Claws on their feet. Long, black feathers protruding from their backs. Narrow, beak-like masks. Hovering above the ground, so as to emulate flight. Bird-like shrills when crying in agony. The Mursaat are living compositions of bird-like features. This, along with references like ‘carrion birds’ and ‘birds of prey’, makes for an intriguing connection.

Again, we have yet to learn why.

V. Rata Sum

There is no evidence that Rata Sum is a Mursaat city. There are however, clues. So let us broaden our minds, and let us once again review the possibility that the story of Rata Sum has not yet been told entirely.

How could Rata Sum be connected to the Mursaat? How does even the faintest of links exist between this golden city and this mysterious race of spellcasters? Here are some facts as well as suggestive clues.

The most obvious and most frequently used reason for this alleged connection is the famous anagram. Rata Sum does indeed spell out Mursaat. Coincidence? Or the developers leaving us a breadcrumb?

The Asura did not build Rata Sum in its entirety. When the Great Destroyer drove the Asura from their homes in the Depths of Tyria 250 years ago, they arrived at the ruins of some previous civilization, setting up geomystical generators for power within these already fortified confines and establishing the area as their new capital. The aesthetic sensibilities of these ruins are reflected in modern asuran architecture. Originally, Rata Sum was a hastily erected outpost protected by ruins. The picture posted below shows what is talked about.

You can separate in that pictures the ‘hastily erected outpost’, wooden huts and such, as well as the ‘ruins protecting the outpost’. It is an undisputable fact that the majority of Rata Sum is not Asura-made, but are remnants of a previous and unknown civilization. Another thing to consider is this. Whether or not Rata Sum was built by the Asura, perhaps the very reason they chose to settle there, was the potential offered by that area. Perhaps this is the same reason why the previous civilization chose to settle at that exact location. Perhaps there’s some sort of power attributed to the area. What exactly are the so-called ‘geomystic’ generators? Are they generators that extract or channel energy from the earth, the source of which is unknown? What exactly is the power of the Asura? What is the source of power of the Mursaat, for that matter. I present a vague clue to ponder:

I shall move on.

The story of Saul gives us an interesting description of the mysterious Mursaat city. I quote the following:

“On the fourth day, Saul emerged from among the trees to see what he thought was a hallucination – a city of massive towers reaching into the heavens. It was a sight to behold, alabaster and golden filigree.” – The Guild Wars Manuscripts

Alabaster and golden filigree. I does not take you long, nor does it require any stretch of the imagination, to find both in Rata Sum:

Interestingly, even though it has never been specified which ‘dense forest’ Saul found himself in, there is a suggestion. Close to Rata Sum is an outpost called ‘the Tarnished Haven’. The following description about this place is given to us:

“Founded by exiles from Kryta, this settlement is a common destination for political refugees. Those who find themselves "on the outs" with the current ruling faction in Lion's Arch come here to hide from the political upheaval rampant within the Krytan state. As a result, the haven's inhabitants are a combination of expatriates, agents, spies, and refugees.” – In-game Description

Founded by exiles from Kryta. Next, I offer the following quote about Saul’s punishment:

Though he successfully paid his debt to the Lucky Horseshoe, he was eventually fingered by one of his victims and tried as a thief. His punishment was exile from the Kingdom of Kryta.” – The Guild Wars Manuscripts

Exile from the Kingdom of Kryta. The Tarnished Haven was founded by the exiles of Kryta. Consider also, why would they ride out with Saul precisely 3 weeks? This would suggest that Kryta had a very specific process of executing their punishment. In other words, they would bring exiles to a very specific place before letting them fend for themselves. It is exactly because of this, that the Tarnished Haven came into existence. If a great number of spies, traitors and thieves were brought to that area over the course of years, it would explain the creation of a small village in that area designed specifically to harbor fugitives and exiles. If Saul was exiled from Kryta, he would most likely have been brought to this area. Then, wandering through these forests, Saul stumbled upon the city north of that area, Rata Sum. Again, merely a hypothesis.

One should also consider the White Mantle presence near Rata Sum. Not merely justiciar Naveed, but the White Mantle guarding the so called ‘Grimoire Arcanum’, a mysterious book containing instructions on how to deal with certain Mursaat magic. Why can we find this book within this region?

Yet another clue comes from Old Joness. This clue is old and much has been speculated about it, but I quote again:

"Its real name is Ullen River, but those of us who know it best never call it that. It's the Dark River to us. Dark as in absence of light, yes but that's only part of it. A shadow lies over that region, and it is cast by something...unseen, I suppose you could say." – Old Joness

A shadow lies over that region, and it is cast by something… unseen. The reference to the “unseen” speaks for itself. One should note, also, that the Ullen river borders the region in which Rata Sum is located. In addition, the Great River near Rata Sum may very well be connected to the Ullen river, as it seems to flow in that direction. This, however, can’t be verified due to in-game restrictions.

And finally, in closing, the presence of Lazarus the Dire. One could make the argument that Lazarus is within that region because Justiciar Naveed, and therefore the aspect of Lazarus, is there. I shall offer no rebuttal on this. However, if I may offer a different approach on this, it is interesting to remember that at the time of EoTN, most of the Mursaat had been wiped out. Now, if most of your brethren were being slaughtered, and your very existence were threatened, where would you most likely retreat to? Just something to think about.

VI. The Mursaat & White Mantle Hierarchy

It has long been believed that Optimus Caliph was the supreme leader of the Mursaat. This is, however, not the case. As far as direct evidence goes, the leaders of the Mursaat are Talios the Resplendent and Ambrillus the Guardian.

"That's them! Talios and his pet physician. The Mursaat leaders.” – Dinas

In the event that even the claims of in-game characters are a matter of dispute, one should remember that Dinas was, at one point, deep within the White Mantle ranks. His claim therefore has much credibility. I shall say one last thing about Optimus. Even his name, which in the past had been the prime reason for people thinking he was the Mursaat leader, does not arrogate to him that position. His name literally translates as, “highest representative”. Not leader, but representative. And that, I think, he absolutely was.

Based on what we know now, I would construct the Mursaat and White Mantle hierarchy as the following:

Note: only time will tell, but I would make the case that Janthir is some form of deistic entity worshipped by and perhaps even leading the Mursaat. This, at this point, cannot be verified however.

One should also note the reformation of the White Mantle that took place after the events of Prophecies when considering their hierarchy.

VII. Motives of the Unseen Ones

The Mursaat are introduced to us as the so called ‘gods’ of the White Mantle. But, venturing further into the story, we become quickly aware of the gruesome fact that the Mursaat are guardians of the Door of Komalie, and require many souls in fulfilling this task. This very fact is, I think, the essence of trying to understand the motives of the Mursaat. All of this begins with the Flameseeker Prophecies.

The Flameseeker Prophecies are a collection of proclamations foreseen by the dragon Glint in 272 AE. They are predictions concerning the future of Tyria and the survival of humans in the face of great and terrible events that would engulf their world. These predictions not only concerned the fate of humans, but also that of the Mursaat. It was prophesied by Glint that the Mursaat would meet their demise at the hands of the Chosen. Consequently, for years the Mursaat and their Mantle counterparts hunted down and killed the Chosen to prevent the prophecy from coming to pass.

Who are the Chosen? To understand this, we must first understand who wé are. We, the players, were the Chosen that completed the prophecy; we were the ones to slay the birds of prey. What does Glint say about us?

“You have Ascended and awakened the gift of True Sight that lay dormant within you.” – Glint

The Mursaat master the art of concealment. They have quite literally become the ‘un-seen’. After we ascend, we become very aware of the fact that the Mursaat are numerous, and present in many places. Our ‘gift of True Sight’ has awakened, and the ‘unseen’ now become very much ‘seen’. The gift of True Sight is therefore something to be feared. When awakened, it allows the bearer to negate the effects of their concealment. Consequently, the Mursaat constructed the brilliant ruse that those in possession of this unique aptitude, would be granted the honor of studying within the Temple of the Unseen with the Grand Masters. Weapons, artifacts and knowledge would be theirs. Only, this lie, in the form of the yearly Test of the Chosen, would lead each and every one of them straight to the Maguuma Bloodstone, where their blood would paint the stone’s surface and their souls be sucked into soul batteries. It is this ironically named ‘gift’ that is the greatest curse of the Krytan people. The presence of this magical aptitude, even in its dormant state, will condemn every Krytan who posseses it to an eventual death atop the Bloodstone.

An interesting question is the following: how did the Mursaat become aware of the Flameseeker Prophecies? To our knowledge, no living creature in Tyria is aware of this prophecy, except for the Mursaat, the Lich, the Ghostly Hero, Glint herself, perhaps the Forgotten and to some extent Meerak. There are four possibilities: either they learned it from Glint, or the Lich, or the Ghostly Hero, or in some other way. No evidence can be found for any of them, but I would like to note the following. In the event that they learned it from Glint, there is one obvious way in how they could have achieved it: ascension. This is a possible, albeit strange, hypothesis.

“Only those who Ascend will find the portal that takes them to her." – Ghostly Hero

If the Mursaat would have learned it from Glint, it would have required ascension. I will not elaborate on the age-old theory of the ascension of the Mursaat. For this, I quote from the work of Quintus Antonius:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ”Quintus Antonius”

In the Crystal Desert, specifically in the Dragon's Lair, there are animated suits of armor known as the Enchanted. Where did the Forgotten get the suits of armor they utilized in the creation of the Enchanted Armor/Bows? Were they left by a fallen civilization, and if so, whom?
Upon closer inspection, we find that the Enchanted look remarkably like the Mursaat, as marked by the numbers indicating the similarities in the armor styles. Furthermore, on both sets of armor, we find the Eye of Janthir. This further cooroborates the Eye of Janthir being a Mursaat symbol, and virtually confirms that the Enchanted Armor/Bows do or did belong to the Mursaat. Yet, there is no clear evidence of the Mursaat having a strong present day prescence in the Desert. Also, the armor is darker and shows signs of age, suggesting that it is not presently a tool of the Mursaat, but was left in the Desert.

Upon analysis of the Mursaat's physiology, we find that, as well as being human-like in shape, theMursaat also have fair, hairless skin, and a nipple. Few families of animal have nipples, as milk feeding is a largely mammalian concept. This means that the Mursaat are mammals. Also, they are bipedal, having two arms and two legs. Their structure, apparent intelliect, abilitity to manipulate tools, and movement furthers the idea that the Mursaat were once human, or a cousin to the human species.

As previously stated, there is little doubt that the armor of the current Mursaat, and the Enchanted are made for the same race, however, the Enchanted armor walk, while the Mursaat float. In comparison to the Enchanted Armor, take note of the grieves (legs). The grieves of of the Enchanted, when put on a corporeal wearer, would not inhibit movement of the knee, allowing the person wearing the armor to walk on the ground. The grieves of the Mursaat armor extend up past their knees, meaning that, if theMursaat were forced to walk on their feet, instead of hovering, they would not be able to bend their knees, if they have knees at all. This indicates that the Enchanted Armors were left behind BEFORE theMursaat gained the ability to hover. In consideration to their location in the Crystal Desert, it can be surmised that the Mursaat, or the people who would become the Mursaat, may have Ascended successfully, and found they no longer needed their cumbersome armor, leaving it behind, as they made a new home in the Maguuma Jungle. However, that is speculation, what is known, though, is that the Enchanted Armor/Bows did most certainly belong to the Mursaat at a time before they gained the ability to hover. It may be, as suggested by other community members, that the Forgotten or Glint discovered the cast of armor of the Mursaat, and used it as their Enchanted pawns. It is also interesting to note that the armor of the Mursaat, before their Ascension, still bears the Eye of Janthir symbol, which suggests that the Mursaat had this symbol before they became the Mursaat. Based on the symbolism, it may be that the Mursaat were the civilization known as "The Seekers", but that is pure speculation.

The conclusion, however, I shall repeat: it is a plausible, and some might say likely, theory. On a sidenote: the Mursaat have the ability to conceal themselves from others. Only those with the gift of True Sight awakened, can see them. It would seem to me that the Mursaat would first have to ascend, to have their own gift of True Sight awakened, before finding some way to gain these powers.

In any event, even if the Mursaat were granted an audience with Glint, why would she then tell them of their own demise? It seems unlikely, but there is a way to circumvent this criticism:

"When I got caught, a Mursaat called The Inquisitor interrogated me. He just took my thoughts from my head." – Shining Blade Scout Ryder

It is possible that they came to know of the Prophecies by simply taking them from Glint. This, however, is purely speculation. They may very well have learned it from the Ghostly Hero during their time in the Crystal Desert just as he informs us, the player, of these prophecies:

“We foolishly thought that we were the ones in the Flameseeker Prophecies. The ones who would rise to be led to the Hall.” – Ghostly Hero

Now, back to the Chosen. The Mursaat are intelligent, that much is certain. I would even go so far as to say they killed two birds with one stone. They identified those with the gift of True Sight, the potential Chosen, and subsequently slayed every last one of them to prevent the true Chosen from ascending. At the same time, they considered another aspect of the prophecy. It is at the hands of the Titans the Mursaat would meet their demise. And so the Mursaat used the souls of the Chosen slain atop the bloodstone to charge the soul batteries, which they constructed, so as to keep the Door of Komalie closed and preventing their possible eradication. This process can be clearly seen here:

Slaying all potential Chosen while at the same time keeping the titans safely locked away. A brilliant move indeed.

Note: in the unlikely event one should question whether the soul batteries are indeed Mursaat-made, I would make the following comment. First, the Maguuma bloodstone was once part of the larger stone used by the Old Gods, in which they bound all four schools of magic, along with a keystone. When the volcano in which the stone was placed, erupted, different shards were spread across Tyria, one of which is the current Maguuma bloodstone. I find it inconceivable that through this process, the bloodstone would somehow be equipped with ready-to-use soul batteries. Second, the soul batteries themselves closely resemble the Mursaat, which strongly indicates that they are indeed Mursaat-made.

While we're on the subject of soul batteries, I believe a closer study is in order. Soul batteries are fascinating Mursaat constructs. They are used to harvest and store the souls of the Chosen, in order to seal the Door of Komalie and keep the titans locked away. Let's take a closer look at one of the soul batteries:

One thing about the soul batteries continues to fascinate me. The jade material which the battery itself is made of, transforms into a spirit-like form upon destruction of the ether seal. It creates an interesting parallel with the souls of the Chosen. It seems to be made of similar material (being phantom-like), while also moving in a very similar way, as if the battery becomes a soul of its own. With this in mind, consider the fact the soul battery closely resembles a Mursaat. Why would this be? Vanity? Or perhaps there's a different reason? Perhaps the souls of the Chosen are stored inside a Mursaat soul? Again, we cannot know for certain.

In closing, I would like to make one last remark: it is the White Mantle doing the actual slaying of the Chosen, not the Mursaat. Such a profound ritual would definitely have an impact on the order. I believe this important and integral part of their order is reflected in some of their symbolism:

Those golden and jagged circles appear above the bodies of the Chosen seconds after being slain. I think they offer the best explanation for the jagged circles on the White Mantle armor, not only by design, but also by symbolic significance.

VIII. Ashford Abbey

Ashford Abbey has always been shrouded in mystery. It is a very unique structure, unlike any other building in Tyria. Additionally, the structure is engraved with strange symbols and carvings. There has already been a discussion about the connection between the Abbey and the Mursaat, at length I might add, but for the sake of being thorough, I shall propagate it once more.

We can clearly see the eye-symbolism, possibly referring to the Divine Eye of Janthir. There are wings and beaks, referring once again to the carrion birds, the golden Mursaat. And lastly, there are symbols of lightning, the defining power of the Mursaat vested in their powerful spectral agony, teleportation, ether towers and so on. This, along with the unusual architectural design, makes for an interesting case.

But again, these are matters of dispute. But it does not end there. As I’ve said before, no being in the whole of Tyria, that we know of, is aware of the Flameseeker Prophecies except for Glint, the Lich, the Mursaat, the Ghostly Hero, perhaps the Forgotten, and strangely enough, Meerak the Shouter.

"Hail the Flameseeker Prophecies! All shall be revealed in time, and with the revelation comes the end! Yes, the end!" – Meerak the Shouter

How does this obscure, Ascalonian monk possess knowledge of the Prophecy? And not only that, he seems to know, to some extent, of the Mursaat aswell:

"Heed the Prophecies! Beware the unseen enemy!" – Meerak the Shouter

If you remember, Meerak is first seen in pre-Searing Ascalon standing in front of the Abbey. Elaborating more on this would bring me to utter and insane speculation. But just something to think about.

On a sidenote: considering what I have written above on Rata Sum, combined with the mystery of the Ashford Abbey, the following makes for a happy coincidence (?):

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IX. Janthir

First, I shall enumerate the various known facts about this thing called Janthir.

Janthir is, first and foremost, an island north of Kryta. Its inhabitants are said to possess the gift of True Sight, and after Saul traveled there many years ago and returned to Kryta, he brought with him the Eye of Janthir. This is a magical artifact that possesses, though in a limited capacity, this gift of True Sight. It is through the use of this artifact that the White Mantle can search and identify those where the gift of True Sight lies dormant within.

Note: the Isle of Janthir comes to mind, especially when thinking of the stone tablets of Janthir, when reading the following quote by Prince Mehtu the Wise:

“I even have stone tablets that were found on an island far off the coast... an island that mysteriously disappeared thereafter.” – Prince Mehtu the Wise

We now know that the Isle of Janthir is indeed an island off the coast of Kryta. And it would be fitting that this island somehow had the ability to disappear, much like the Mursaat have this extraordinary ability.

Then we come to the so called 'tablets of Janthir', stone tablets inscribed and spread across Kryta. Because I have not been able to give a satisfying explanation to all of them, I chose only to include those where, in my opinion, I succeeded.

"At his heart, every man has inside him a place of darkness. The challenge of the righteous man is not only to recognize in himself that which he seeks to strike down in the wicked, but to understand that he too is wicked." -- Verse 3, The Book of Confessors

The confessor is the high priest of the White Mantle, the leader, if you will. He is therefore knowledgeable of everything that transpires within the White Mantle order. He knows of the sacrificing of the Chosen, countless of Krytans that are murdered each year during the Summer Solstice. This verse comes from the book of Confessors, a book aimed specifically at those in that position. I guess it would serve as a moral guide, a rationalization of what they know and condone.

"The crossroads will come, a hiccup in time when the rest of history has not been written. At this juncture, when the fate of the world hangs in the balance, the forces of evil will rise. It is at this point, that the chosen ones may fail." -- Scroll of Seeing

This, to me, seems to reflect the driving force behind the actions of the Mursaat. It is important to remember that the Mursaat are aware of the Flameseeker Prophecies as predicted by Glint. These prophecies tell us that the Chosen will rise up against the Mursaat and that they will find their demise, through the titans, at the hands of these Chosen. Now, if a prophecy would most definitely come true, why then would the Mursaat invest so much time and effort in trying to prevent this prophecy from coming to pass? Prophecies are hardly written in stone. I believe they merely represent a potential outcome. So one that can be averted or altered.

The Scroll of Seeing seems to be a prophecy as well, perhaps written by Janthir. He, after all, is the “all-seeing eye”. One must also remember that the tablets of Janthir are written from the perspective of the Mursaat, White Mantle or the Krytans. The ‘forces of evil’ would in this case be the Undead, the Lich and the players. The ‘chosen ones’ are the players, but this is of course something the Mursaat aren’t aware of. ‘The chosen ones may fail’. It is entirely possible that we, the player, would have failed in our mission. We could have died in the course of trying to fulfill the Flameseeker Prophecies. This is exactly what gave the Mursaat hope. The prophecy made by Glint told that the Chosen could possibly succeed in destroying the Mursaat. Convertly, the prophecy of the Mursaat, in the form of the Scroll of Seeing, told them the chosen could possibly fail in doing so. Which prophecy eventually came to pass, we already know.

In our faith, we are blind
In the Unseen, we seek true sight
In ourselves, we find obedience
-- "Peasant's Prayer", Book of Loam

“In our faith, we are blind” is quite obvious. This goes back to the Mursaat attempting to emulate actual gods. Take, for example, the Old Gods. The people of Tyria never see them. They know of them, yes, but never see them. If the Mursaat want their claim of the divine to be taken seriously, they too must be ‘un-seen’. Being exposed to your believers holds the risk of showing your weaknesses and limitations. We know for a fact that even the Old Gods are mortal. They are not perfect, nor are they omnipotent. In that case, it is best to reveal as little as possible so as not to diminish the perception your followers have of you. Believers should be kept blind.

“In the Unseen, we seek true sight” is quite obvious aswell. It is the Unseen Ones that place so much importance in the gift of True Sight. They themselves have it. The Eye of Janthir has it. We know exactly why they seek out Krytans with this magical aptitude each year. But the Krytans themselves are of course completely unaware of this. All they know is that having this gift, is a blessing. For them, it would mean going to the Temple of the Unseen and studying with the Grand Masters and in doing so, seeking or awakening , in full, their gift of True Sight.

“In ourselves, we find obedience” is again quite obvious. On a number of occasions, the importance of obedience is stressed. This of course, only serves the Mursaat and the Mantle in fulfilling their duties. Faith that makes the believers obedient, is a good faith. It makes Krytans easier to manipulate and control.

It should come as no surprise then, that the above is a ‘peasant’s prayer’, something the Krytan simple folk would teach their children from an early age. Indoctrination of the masses. Also, it is interesting it should come from the book of Loam, referring to the village where all Chosen are taken to before eventually being slain atop the Bloodstone.

"Although it stands to reason that a Believer should be mindful of that in which he believes, it seems that we are all at times negligent. Consequently, if someone were to ask the Believer in what he believes, the person who can answer without stopping to contemplate and reflect is rare." -- Exerpt from The Book of Tests

Not much can be said about the above. It is merely a statement on the fundamentals of faith. A believer will be, most of the time, acutely aware of what he believes in. Otherwise there’d be very little reason to believe at all. However, at times we are all negligent. Because of this, there will be times when we will question our faith. Things might happen, certain events might befall us, and cause us to question what we believe in. In that regard, faith is like a river. It flows, and will flow, in a very specific direction. But along the way it may twist and turn depending on the terrain.

The true Believer does not ask for compensation
The true Believer does not ask his gods to deliver him from sin
The true Believer places his life in the hands of faith, trusting in the Unseen
-- Verse 11, Book of Heresy

I think the Book of Heresy would be dedicated to describing everything the faith of the Unseen would not tolerate. Just as they specify that believers in the Unseen should be blind and obedient, they also specify what believers in the Unseen are forbidden to do. I think the above is an example of working around the fact that the Mursaat are not actually gods. The Old Gods can compensate. They can bestow upon us blessings. This, the Mursaat cannot. And so they forbid their followers to ask any of it, be it compensation in whatever form, so as not to give away the simple fact that they are anything but divine. Ask nothing of us, so that you cannot ever see that there is nothing to give.

Besides these known facts, I would very much make the case that Janthir also refers to an entity. There’s a few things I would like to say about this. First, I offer the following quote:

"The Divine Eye has an intelligence of its own.” – Mantle Knight Franklin

Mantle Knight Franklin specifically states that the Eye of Janthir won’t just follow anybody. It has a mind of its own. In other words, it is a separate and conscious entity. And this is merely the ‘eye’ of Janthir. If this aspect alone is sentient, why would this be any different for the ‘rest’ of Janthir, so to speak. Another thing to consider is this: if ‘Janthir’ has an eye, then perhaps it has two? Or perhaps three? Perhaps it has other aspects? The Divine Eye is merely one aspect attributed to something called Janthir, so perhaps there’s more. Perhaps they refer to a complete and sentient being. Also, consider this:

I will send a few men to inquire into the matter, and in the meantime, give this Token of Janthir to the peasant you mentioned. While she bears it, the Unseen Ones will pay her special attention." – Mantle Knight Karriya

A token of Janthir that allows the wearer to receive ‘special attention from the Mursaat’? It would seem Janthir is something very important to them.

Without strong evidence to support this, I can merely end in closing by saying that I really do believe Janthir to be a separate, autonomous and deistic entity either ruling the Mursaat, being worshipped by the Mursaat, and probably both.

On a sidenote: the ‘eye’ of Janthir is not only present on shrines specifically related to Janthir, but also on Jade pillars:

Lastly, there seems to be a connection between Janthir, island or entity, and the strange red gems which can be found in shrines, devices and weapons used by the White Mantle. I attribute these gems to Janthir because originally, they were to be found solely on shrines related to the Eye of Janthir, and shrines of mending following that same design. It was only later that these gems would also be found on the Oppressor weapons used by the Mantle after the reformation.

Their use, however, remains a mystery.

X. The Mursaat & Glint

Is there, at least in some part, a shared history between Glint and the Mursaat? A past long forgotten and steeped in mystery?

Both Glint and the Mursaat have lived on Tyria for a very long time. Glint is aware of their existence. Whether the Mursaat know of hers, remains unknown. Both Glint and the Mursaat have the extraordinary ability to create aspects of themselves. Both Glint and the Mursaat are aware of the Flameseeker Prophecies. Venturing into the more vague, there’s the Mursaat-ascension mythos that would directly place Glint and the Mursaat together in time and space.

In the event that there would exist such a link, I offer the epitome of speculation:

The mural above can be found all over the Tarnished Coast, and very much so near Rata Sum. It is predicated by the assumption that the creature next to the dragon represents an original, ‘proto-Mursaat’, if you will. The civilization responsible for building Rata Sum could very well be the older, pre-ascension Mursaat civilization. Again, these are merely hypotheses for which no hard evidence can be found.

XI. Disciples of the Sun

There seems to be a vague connection between the Mursaat and the sun. First, I bring your attention back to what Dark Oak says:

“A host of gleaming angels...no not angels but birds...carrion birds...bright and terrible as the sun.” – Dark Oak

Bright and terrible as the sun. Also, the Mursaat themselves are dressed in golden robes and pieces of golden armor. And then there’s the test of the Chosen. The yearly ritual of identifying the potential Chosen and bringing them to Loamhurst is fixed upon a specific moment in time.

“Today is the Summer Solstice. The sun has reached its apex, and Justiciar Hablion has gone to Shaemoor to prepare for the tests.” – Mantle Knight Franklin

This test is administered during the Summer Solstice, when the sun has reached its apex. It seems important that the test is administered at this specific point in time. When considering this, I was reminded of something else. At one point, Ambassador Zain was selling strange sextants to Ascalonian merchants.

"Some new trouble regarding Ambassador Zain has come to my attention. He has been giving strange artifacts to our merchants in lieu of gold. These Eldritch Sextants must be viewed with some suspicion, and we cannot discount the possibility of a Krytan plot.” – Warmaster Tydus

The most common use of a sextant is sighting the sun at solar noon. This may be entirely unrelated, but there has never been an explanation for these strange sextants and they do stress the apparent importance of the sun being at its highest.

Also, during the test of the Chosen, when the Eye of Janthir arrives at Loamhurst, powerful rays of light pierce the clouds above. This can be seen here:

Again, all of these things appear to be small fragments of a larger picture which at this point remains obscured.

Afterword

First, I would like to recognize the work of Quintus Antonius, allowing me to make the occasional reference. Secondly, I’d like to thank ArenaNet for giving us this marvelous world of Tyria, and for allowing us to delve deep into its stories and mysteries. Without them, all of this would be impossible. And lastly, I’d like devote this work to the Mursaat, my eternal Unseen masters.

The real test of a Believer is his range of sight
Faith does not require clear vision
But rather an acceptance of what is truly there
-- Oath of the Unseen

Iceblue · Sep 03, 2012, 07:14 AM // 07:14

WOW!!! have not read yet, but just wanted to say WOW!!! Looks good, gonna have to pencil in a time slot to read....

Konig Des Todes · Sep 03, 2012, 08:23 AM // 08:23

I have only glimpsed at this - too tired to read it in full right now - but a few things:

It's been confirmed there is no relation between the mursaat and the Crystal Desert enchanted.
Optimus Caliph was the leader. Talios replaced him (well, as far as it's known in regards to the White Mantle, Lazarus might have been the true leader).
Glint is an Elder Dragon champion, mursaat fought the Elder Dragons (furthermore, it's revealed in GW2 that the mursaat fled Tyria during the last ED rise, after betraying the other four races fighting them - the seers, jotun, dwarves, and forgotten.
The mursaat never Ascended (at least, nothing implies, hints at, or eludes to them having done such). They returned to Tyria shortly before becoming the Unseen Ones, it is implied.
The divided cubes in Rata Sum are asuran energy generators - as described in the Eye of the North manual. Those are, if nothing else, truely asuran structures - the rest is questionable, but there are equal clues to them being ancient lost asuran or Orrian.

I'll read this in full when I get back. A note about Quintus' work, a vast majority of it was taking theory as being stronger than likely and has been proven false since - the biggest flaw in his works was that he tried tying everything to the mursaat, which seems to be what you're attempting by glancing at this (the book's cover, if you will).

SerenityAlum · Sep 03, 2012, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Very impressive article and reflects how the developers at Anet lost a great opportunity to take ideas like this and WOC into a true Guild Wars sequal rather than a game (GW2) that has little to do with their own lore and moreover disinfranchised those of us that who hoped to see a true movement forward of the "Game Of The Year" franchise. This is worthy of building a true Guild Wars sequel around. Great read and thanks for all your effort.

akelarumi · Sep 04, 2012, 03:27 AM // 03:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerenityAlum

Very impressive article and reflects how the developers at Anet lost a great opportunity to take ideas like this and WOC into a true Guild Wars sequal rather than a game (GW2) that has little to do with their own lore and moreover disinfranchised those of us that who hoped to see a true movement forward of the "Game Of The Year" franchise. This is worthy of building a true Guild Wars sequel around. Great read and thanks for all your effort.

First off all to react to this. You can call GW2 a lot of bad things, but not that it isn't continuing the lore of GW1. I've played a good portion of that game and it got a lot of lore bout GW2. You might not like the way they are progressing the story. But saying things like this is saying that Star Wars 1-3 has nothing to do with 4-6. (they have all to do with eachother, its just that a good bunch of people didn't like the story as much as they liked the original three movies. maybe also driven by enthousiasm and expecting too much out of it).

Second kuddo's for the OP for the effort put into this. Though a small warning, it is dangerous to look too much at a certain object without loosing objectivity. Although you do a lot of if's and maybe's as should a amount of things your saying is too far fetched imo and from a GW2 point of view (information found in GW2 thats bout the pre-gw1 time) that is stating different. none the less a nice and enjoyable piece of work.

Konig Des Todes · Sep 04, 2012, 05:08 AM // 05:08

Okay, gonna read this in full and respond based on section as I go.

Section 3
Nothing says the mursaat view themselves as gods. One can pose as a god and not believe oneself to be such.

Nothing indicates that the individual mursaats have lived for a long time (or the contrary, mind you). They as a race do indeed go back to the time of the Elder Dragons' last rise, but so do Forgotten, Seers, dwarves, and jotun (at least).

They do not have a profound influence on Tyria's history. In fact, they have a very minimal influence on it. They are pretty much non-existent on Tyria from between the last rise of the Elder Dragons (when they betrayed the other four major races, including the Seers) and Guild Wars Prophecies' events. The exploration mode of the Arah dungeon in Guild Wars 2 implies that the mursaat fled Tyria (the world) after betraying the races - to be specific, the term "phased out" is said. The dungeon also goes into their magical origins, though I have only second-hand information of an incomplete dungeon run so I do not know specifics on this. But it's implied that they only returned to Tyria a short time before being found by Saul D'Alessio. This is the best second-hand source on the forums that I know of, which doesn't give much details.

Quote:

I ran the final dungeon earlier in explorable mode earlier today and you're able to choose from 4 different options; researching various ancient races, all of which are believed to have fought the elder dragons in the past. The races you can choose from are Seers, Mursaat, Jotun and the forgotten.

Our group chose Mursaat because they are awesome, and there were a couple of interesting bits of info I managed to get from it. (We weren't actually able to finish the dungeon because of difficulty, so I probably missed a massive revelation at the end of it) Basically the Mursaat are able to shift their place in reality and enter a sub-realm which they travel about in, which is what makes them invisible, and this is how they were able to survive the previous elder dragon rampage.

Giving others magical spells isn't really unique either, mind you. It's common practice in GW2, in fact, through the form of enchanting others (and through that explanation, characters in GW1 can even do such).

"Creating life" via animating constructs is also not unique to mursaat in any way, it does not make one divine to any degree either. Humans do it, Shiro does it, Forgotten do it, dwarves do it, even asura do it. Iron Forgeman, Shiro'ken, Enchanted armors, golems, undead... all the same concept - animating what was previously inanimate.

The reason why the White Mantle viewed them as divine was because Saul did - and he saw them as divine because of how "glorious" they were. It was your typical fanatical mistaken identity scenario. Most of the reasons to argue they're "divine" is something your above-average magic user can do with ease.

Also, they're not among the strongest races in Tyria. They do have powerful magic, true, but I wouldn't put them as among the strongest (maybe strongest spellcasters during GW1, after the fall of Orr based on GW2 lore on Orrians).

Section 4

The bird relations is more than likely purely metaphorical, and not serious. We're not even entirely sure that the angles/birds that Dark Oak references is about the mursaat and white mantle, considering there were three threats (two immediately in Prophecies) which Dark Oak can be referencing with his lion/bird analogy - the White Mantle/Mursaat; Khilbron (who uses a Chimera-referencing spell)/Titans; Abaddon/his minions

All three have pros and cons which make them equally possible (though who the birds represent for the last is questionable thus reducing that one a bit).

Section 5

I believe that the ruins of Tarnished Coast are more likely to be Orrian than mursaat. There is concept art of Orrian structures having a more south american/ziggurat vibe in them (such as this one), whereas known mursaat structures are this.

As I said before, those generator cubes are asuran in origin. One such can be found in the Central Transfer Chamber, and the Eye of the North manual mentions them having built quickly erected generators.

A second origin possibility for those ruins, other than Orrian, in my opinion would be asuran. Not modern asuran, but ancient. Firstly, you got from the O Brave New World quest the sunken temple in Arbor Bay, outright stated to be not asuran by those asura there. However, that same pyramid/temple model is used in the Central Transfer Chamber. Similarly, other structures from the Tarnished Coast is found in the CTC. On top of that, you have this from the manual:

It has been centuries since Asura were seen above ground.

This proves that the asura were above ground in the past. Atop of this, it is a known fact that the asura lost much of their knowledge as generations go by due to their secretive, egotistical, and so forth behavior - inventors like to prevent their work from being found and used by others, which causes them to be lost in their isolated labs after their deaths. This idea is explored threefold (at least) in GW2 and is also one of the reasons the Inquest exists.

About the Tarnished Haven - those exiles are, I believe, exiled by the White Mantle given their appearance of my recollection. THough I'm not sure of that.

The Ullen River flows west, not south, so Rata Sum is no where near where Old Joness passes through.

Lazarus is in the Tarnished Coast because of the justiciar - he's trying to make himself whole again. The threat passed and he's fixing himself, and hunting down the last piece of himself which is in Naveed. Furthermore, the White Mantle are in the Tarnished Coast because of the Shining Blade - it's a battle between the two factions and the Shining Blade went out to find allies, and the White Mantle followed.

However, your argument for Rata Sum being of mursaat origin is, by far, the strongest I've seen.

Section 6

As I said before, Talios is merely the leader during the War in Kryta events (at least, as far as the White Mantle - or rather, Dinas - is led to believe). Nothing indicates Talios as being the leader prior to the War in Kryta, when most of the mursaat were still around. Though it's still conjecture and theory that Caliph is the mursaat leader, claiming Talios is prior to the War in Kryta is equally so.

As to Janthir... that's an island. It's a location. Pure and simple. It lies to the north of Kryta and the Maguuma, in Janthir Bay - it's the desolate looking island to the north.

Okay, I'm gonna have to call it a break for now. I may edit this if there's no posts after mine when I get back to it. Just a lot to read and all.

Aeve Haleheart · Sep 04, 2012, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

It's been confirmed there is no relation between the mursaat and the Crystal Desert enchanted.

Source?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Optimus Caliph was the leader. Talios replaced him.

A possibility, true, but no evidence can be found for it. Like I said, as far as direct evidence goes, we can only say with certainty that Talios and Ambrillus are Mursaat leaders. Whether they have always been such, is unknown. But I would like to point out that Optimus’ name still only refers to him as being a representative, which would suggest he was merely such, with someone else being the Mursaat leader at that time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

The divided cubes in Rata Sum are asuran energy generators .

Yes, they are. However, the source of power of those generators is what interests me. I find it curious that two civilizations, that we know of, both chose to settle exactly there. Because of their superior technology, the Asura would have had the opportunity to settle anywhere in the Tarnished Coast, which they did. And yet Rata Sum was chosen for their capital.

I believe the energy that you see, is the source of power of both the Asura as well as the Mursaat in the past, and that the Asura are now using their own devices, like the massive cube, to extract this energy. The cube may seem Mursaat by design, through the use of golden filigree, but this is easily explained. We know for a fact that in Asuran architecture, the aesthetic sensibilities of the previous civilization occupying Rata Sum are reflected. If that civilization was indeed the Mursaat, then part of their culture would live on in modern Asuran architecture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig des Todes

Nothing says the mursaat view themselves as gods. One can pose as a god and not believe oneself to be such.

Quite right, but I made no claims on this matter. There are clear indications that the Mursaat want to be perceived as being gods. For example, they form a religious-militaristic order based on worship of themselves. They are referred to as the Divine Caretakers, Bringers of Wisdom, Eyes that Watch All, which suggests they think very highly of themselves. There are quotes like the one from justiciar Naveed where he specifically states the White Mantle believed them to be gods and that the Mursaat may have believed it too.

"I think they thought themselves divine as well." - Justiciar Naveed

I stated very clearly that I don’t know whether or not the Mursaat think of themselves as gods. What I did say is that, from an objective viewpoint, they very clearly are not. As far as their perception of themselves goes, it would require more information on their background and origin. But there are clear indications, as I've argumented, that they did in fact think of themselves as gods. Not proven, but very much suggested.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Nothing indicates that the individual mursaats have lived for a long time.

Please read the following quote from Ree Soesbee:

"I can say that they (the mursaat) are one of the oldest races of Tyria, dating back long before the Gods brought the humans to the world; to the time of the writing of the Tome of Rubicon." - Ree Soesbee

Please, do explain, how that is not evidence the Mursaat have lived for a very long time?

What I do find fascinating is the bit of information you provided from Guild Wars 2:

"Basically the Mursaat are able to shift their place in reality and enter a sub-realm which they travel about in, which is what makes them invisible, and this is how they were able to survive the previous elder dragon rampage."

This is an interesting find, because of the following:

“It is removed from the pattern of the world” – Glayvin

The above is what Glayvin says after Lazarus the Dire fled. Now we have a better grasp on the significance of that quote is. The Mursaat are indeed, as presumed, some sort of inter-dimensional beings. It can also serve as an explanation on how the Isle of Janthir manages to disappear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Giving others magical spells isn't really unique either, mind you. It's common practice in GW2, in fact, through the form of enchanting others (and through that explanation, characters in GW1 can even do such). "Creating life" via animating constructs is also not unique to mursaat in any way, it does not make one divine to any degree either. Humans do it, Shiro does it, Forgotten do it, dwarves do it, even asura do it. Iron Forgeman, Shiro'ken, Enchanted armors, golems, undead... all the same concept - animating what was previously inanimate.

I think you’re misunderstanding. It seems you have gotten it in your head I am arguing for the notion that the Mursaat are divine. I am not. I clearly stated the Mursaat are anything but divine. I merely pondered why it is, that this unique race, would think of themselves as divine? What drives them to this? What is their deep-rooted fascination with the divine? So what you're saying is very much true. I merely offered some examples to try and give some sort of explanation as to why the White Mantle would perceive the Mursaat as being divine, and why the Mursaat would think of themselves as such.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

The bird relations is more than likely purely metaphorical, and not serious.

With all due respect, but you can’t dismiss my presumption with a presumption of your own. Prove to me it is not a serious connection. The reasons for this connection, I have given. They exist within the game, and even though they're open for discussion, they're nonetheless there and they quite simply do present a connection, vague as it may be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

We're not even entirely sure that the angles/birds that Dark Oak references is about the mursaat and white mantle.

There is absolutely no doubt that Dark Oak refers to the White Mantle and the Mursaat.

First of all, from a technical viewpoint. It is absolutely out of the question it would refer to Abaddon, because at the time of Prophecies, there was absolutely no backstory on him. ArenaNet couldn’t have referred to something they hadn’t even thought of yet. Everything in Prophecies refers to whatever is happening in Prophecies. It's as simple as that.

Secondly, from a lore-perspective. We are introduced to Dark Oak after we learned the truth about the White Mantle and are now venturing further into the story. Please, read the following quote carefully:

“The lion he saw is obviously Kryta or the White Mantle” – Deep Root

End of discussion. Now, a host of gleaming angels accompanying the White Mantle or Kryta? Anything comes to mind?

I can’t understand why you seem to hammer on this issue. No one has ever questioned who or what Dark Oak is referring to. If you’re so persistent on this, I would suggest you ask a community manager from ArenaNet, but I can tell you now I will end up being right on this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Furthermore, the White Mantle are in the Tarnished Coast because of the Shining Blade - it's a battle between the two factions and the Shining Blade went out to find allies, and the White Mantle followed.

That seems strange, since there are only White Mantle to be found near Rata Sum, and nowhere else, yet the Shining Blade can be found in various places throughout the Tarnished Coast.

Also, we know for a fact why the White Mantle near Rata Sum are there. It isn't to hunt down the Shing Blade, but specifically to prevent Justiciar Naveed from getting his hands on the Grimoire Arcanum:

“So I ran, and am trying to remove that curse, using a book called the Grimoire Arcanum. The search brought me here, but I was too late. One of my former brothers in the White Mantle got here first and snatched the book." – Justiciar Naveed

Also, another thing to consider from that quote is this:

“The search brought me here”. It implies that Naveed, while knowing he was cursed, tried to find a way to lift that curse. His search brought him there. Why, when finding a way to relieve himself from Mursaat magic, would his search bring him precisely there, near Rata Sum? Quite a coincidence, don’t you find?

Konig Des Todes · Sep 04, 2012, 07:07 PM // 19:07

I was going to reply to the remainder of the OP, but I guess it'd be best to tackle the first half before going into the second half? Anyways, I'm not gonna quote you but instead reply based on divisions of your quoting me (as replying as you did tend to create what folks denote as "quote wars" which are very very offputting to readers).

1) Perhaps you should have looked at the official wiki. While sometimes wrong, it often has things not observable in game: " The Mursaat's armor bears a resemblance to the Enchanted, however there is no relation between the two groups." link - original source

2) Actually, all we can say for certain is that Talios is the leader after Prophecies - after the death of Caliph. We can also say for certain the Caliph was a high ranking individual as he always is among the last named mursaat before the Door of Komalie and was the leader of the three who met Saul during the Charr Invasion. Using real meanings to words used as names doesn't mean much in fantasy scenarios, by the way. Maybe the name means nothing title-wise and is just his actual name.

3) I do not think there is a direct tie between asura and mursaat regarding their energy. In GW2, it is revealed that mursaat utilize a special kind of magic that allows them to phase out of the world (dimension transfer, by the sounds of it); asura do not do this. Just because both have a golden glow doesn't mean much. And again: that generator is pre-surface architecture. This means that asura had golden filigree architectures (and as shown by The Ecology of the Charr, gold is a magical conductor). It is not hard to believe.

4) "Quite right, but I made no claims on this matter." you are quite wrong. From the OP: "The Mursaat are worshipped by the White Mantle as gods. The Mursaat think of themselves as gods. But in what capacity are they truly divine? What exactly makes a god?" Granted, I forgot about that line by Naveed. However, those titles by the White Mantle are not necessarily mursaat-made.

5) "Please, do explain, how that is not evidence the Mursaat have lived for a very long time?"

I am talking about individual lifespans. E.g., ogres are known to be able to live over 250 years. Mursaat lifespans are unknown. Your phrase "They are creatures that have lived for a very long time" indicates, to me at least, that you're referring to their lifespan - as the age of their race is irrelevant in terms of divinity. Humans have lived for millennium but this makes us no closer to godhood, for instance. In GW, the seers, dwarves, jotun, titans, and forgotten are all either implied or stated to be as old as we know the mursaat, as a race, to be.

As to the mursaat being inter-dimensional beings... depends on how you define that terminology. In Quintus' terminology, I believe that's not true. By meaning that they can travel through dimensions, then that goes for gods and, yes, even humans and forgotten as well. It depends on how their "phasing" works. I think we'll have to see word-for-word in-game text about their magic to denote this.

Also, whoever said Janthir disappeared? No one. At all. You're mistaking Janthir for the disappearing island that Prince Mehtu speaks of - which has 100% no indication of being Janthir. Furthermore, nothing indicates that the mursaat can make islands travel with them.

6) You first argued for why they could be divine, then argued for why their not. I'm just stating that the arguments for which you presented (unless I'm completely misunderstanding you) are false and there are, in fact, nothing that indicates them to be divine other than being "powerful spellcasters" (and they are only such because people didn't know how their magic worked).

7) I wasn't dismissing a presumption. I was dismissing what you seemed to be presenting to be fact. That's how I read it, at least. "The Mursaat are in many ways related to birds. Birds of prey, to be more precise. Why this is, is as of yet a mystery. But there must be a specific reason for this connection. What this reason is, will hopefully be revealed to us in the near future." There is no "if" or "could" or anything of the sort, indicating you're presenting facts.

8) Because Deep Root perfectly understands everything. Take note that he was giving his own inference to the riddling prophecy. He did not know of Khilbron, the titans, Abaddon, Margonites, or what have you. He only knew of the White Mantle and their unseen gods.

And technically, there were hints of Abaddon in Factions and there were minor aspects in Prophecies about stuff in Nightfall. Jeff Grubb once explicitly said he had to have Nightfall both link Prophecies and Factions and to extend on simple minor inferences. Abaddon was more than likely among them (perhaps not by name, admittedly).

And no, not everything in Prophecies relates to Prophecies. Joko has a reference, Cantha and Elona have references, the Margonites have a reference, even the Realm of Torment does in the Underworld. There are dozens of one-sentence references to Factions and Nightfall - and more towards Nightfall than Factions (or rather, more towards Elona and the Realm of Torment). I could go deeper into this, but this is all terribly off topic.

Oh, and a lot of people have questioned who Dark Oak refers to. Perhaps not on GWO in the old days when everyone followed Quintus or got fed up with him and trying to infer everything to the mursaat (days in which I was not present for, perhaps luckily or perhaps unluckily).

9) You apparently didn't follow Hayda's quests. Nor did you read the Eye of the North manual: "In an attempt to find a way to turn the tides of war in their favor, both the Shining Blade and the White Mantle have sent agents across the reaches of Tyria, searching for powerful allies or magics." So yes, they're there hunting the Shining Blade, and yes, hunting down Naveed. They aren't there for any other reason than hunting down those who are their enemies (the White Mantle weren't guarding the book either, btw, but searching for it too since Naveed was after it - also, just because there's a tome dealing with one kind of magic that may or may not be uniquely mursaat doesn't outright mean it's a book by mursaat).

The ruins that Rata Sum are built upon and surrounding ruins are merely stated to have been made by a magical civilization - which, to our knowledge, can be mursaat, seer, Orrian (given GW2 info, Orrians were all born with immense magical talent - something viewed as incredibly strange by an Ascalonian traveler who wrote about it), asura, forgotten, and jotun. Jotun and forgotten structures look nothing like those, which leave mursaat, seer, Orrian, and asuran. In my personal opinion, the latter two are strongest. Yes, mursaat is a possibility, but the seers could easily have made a book on the mursaat. Similarly, the Orrian or a former-now-forgotten asuran expedition could have encountered, studied, and documented mursaat. Furthermore, we know that there is mursaat relics in Arah, indicating that Orrians knew of mursaat magic (not proving though, mind you), which gives further credence to the possibility of the tome being of Orrian origins.

I would imagine that wording of mursaat or seer origins would be illegible to an asuran, while asuran alphabet be so for Naveed. Orrian makes the most sense in turn. It is possible, albeit a tad bit unlikely, that the mursaat alphabet was taught to the White Mantle's higher ups. Depending on how high Naveed was, if this is so, he may have learned it. But again, I find it unlikely which causes a language barrier.

There is also no indication that the Grimoire shares origins with the ruins. Though to rely on that is, imo, foolhardy - still I felt it be best to denote every possible argument I could think of.

Aeve Haleheart · Sep 07, 2012, 09:17 AM // 09:17

I don't really see how 'quote wars' are off-putting; it's simply the easiest way to have a discussion in structured way. So I'll continue to do so if you don't mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Tode

Perhaps you should have looked at the official wiki. While sometimes wrong, it often has things not observable in game: " The Mursaat's armor bears a resemblance to the Enchanted, however there is no relation between the two groups." link - original source

Very well, that's settled then. We can put that old theory to rest, which does make things less complicated I must say.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Tode

Actually, all we can say for certain is that Talios is the leader after Prophecies - after the death of Caliph. We can also say for certain the Caliph was a high ranking individual as he always is among the last named mursaat before the Door of Komalie and was the leader of the three who met Saul during the Charr Invasion. Using real meanings to words used as names doesn't mean much in fantasy scenarios, by the way. Maybe the name means nothing title-wise and is just his actual name.

Sure, Optimus was indeed a high ranking Mursaat, just like Mercia and Lazarus were. But again, we have no direct evidence for Optimus ever being the leader of the Mursaat. You're quick to dismiss my assumptions by pointing out the lack of hard evidence, but in this case you're guilty of that same flaw. Being the last guard at the Door of Komalie and leading the charge against the Charr does not provide hard evidence for Optimus being the Mursaat leader. The only evidence we have is of Dinas clearly stating that Talios and Ambrillus were, at that time, the Mursaat leaders. If they had always been such, we don't know. So I feel it would be pointless to continue arguing about this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I do not think there is a direct tie between asura and mursaat regarding their energy. In GW2, it is revealed that mursaat utilize a special kind of magic that allows them to phase out of the world (dimension transfer, by the sounds of it); asura do not do this. Just because both have a golden glow doesn't mean much. And again: that generator is pre-surface architecture. This means that asura had golden filigree architectures (and as shown by The Ecology of the Charr, gold is a magical conductor). It is not hard to believe.

Indeed, there doesn't have to be a link between the Mursaat and the Asura in this way. I merely pondered why that specific area was chosen as a place to settle by at least two civilizations. That's it. As for the golden filigree. It could very well be Asuran, as I believe the central energy cube is, but the aesthetic sensibilities of Asuran architecture incorporate elements from the architecture of the previous civilization. So in a sense it would be Asuran, but also it wouldn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Tode

"Quite right, but I made no claims on this matter." you are quite wrong. From the OP: "The Mursaat are worshipped by the White Mantle as gods. The Mursaat think of themselves as gods. But in what capacity are they truly divine? What exactly makes a god?" Granted, I forgot about that line by Naveed. However, those titles by the White Mantle are not necessarily mursaat-made.

I'll clarify: we know for a fact the Mursaat are not gods. This is all I presented as fact. And what I suggested was this: that the Mursaat probably considered themselves to be gods. Because after all, even Naveed only presumes that they did.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

"Please, do explain, how that is not evidence the Mursaat have lived for a very long time?"

I am talking about individual lifespans. E.g., ogres are known to be able to live over 250 years. Mursaat lifespans are unknown. Your phrase "They are creatures that have lived for a very long time" indicates, to me at least, that you're referring to their lifespan - as the age of their race is irrelevant in terms of divinity. Humans have lived for millennium but this makes us no closer to godhood, for instance. In GW, the seers, dwarves, jotun, titans, and forgotten are all either implied or stated to be as old as we know the mursaat, as a race, to be.

I was indeed referring to the Mursaat as a race, not individual lifespans. And yes, it does not bring them any closer to godhood. I merely tried to understand, from the perspective of the Mursaat, why they would consider themselves to be gods. Having been present in Tyria for thousands of years has consequences for a race. It provides knowledge, for example. That's all I wanted to say, really. So your argument stands.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Tode

Also, whoever said Janthir disappeared? No one. At all. You're mistaking Janthir for the disappearing island that Prince Mehtu speaks of - which has 100% no indication of being Janthir. Furthermore, nothing indicates that the mursaat can make islands travel with them.

Well, we know for a fact, after your provided me with the source, that the Mursaat can "phase out", in the sense that they can move between dimensions. Before awakening the gift of True Sight, we cannot see the Mursaat. They are literally un-seen. I believe that, in that case, they do not occupy the same physical realm as we do, but they're still there. Not invisible, but in a dimension parallel to ours.

In any event, we can attribute this power of disappearing to the Mursaat. We know the Isle of Janthir is linked to the Mursaat. Why then could I not attribute this power to Janthir? And no, the quote from Prince Mehtu isn't evidence, but it certainly seems he would be referring to the Isle of Janthir. He talks about an island off the coast, which the isle of Janthir is, that can also disappear. I think it fits the bill. And if I may ask, which island do you believe he is referring to?

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Tode

I wasn't dismissing a presumption. I was dismissing what you seemed to be presenting to be fact. That's how I read it, at least. "The Mursaat are in many ways related to birds. Birds of prey, to be more precise. Why this is, is as of yet a mystery. But there must be a specific reason for this connection. What this reason is, will hopefully be revealed to us in the near future." There is no "if" or "could" or anything of the sort, indicating you're presenting facts.

Perhaps you're right, my particular phrasing may create doubt on this issue. And although most of my work I tend to present merely as hypotheses, in this case, I think the connection is strong enough to almost be presented as fact. The two references to the Mursaat as 'birds of prey' and 'carrion birds' are there, no doubt about it. As for the bird-like features, that I guess would be a more subjective matter. However, I find it difficult to believe one wouldn't take note of the various elements that point in that direction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Tode

And no, not everything in Prophecies relates to Prophecies. Joko has a reference, Cantha and Elona have references, the Margonites have a reference, even the Realm of Torment does in the Underworld. There are dozens of one-sentence references to Factions and Nightfall - and more towards Nightfall than Factions (or rather, more towards Elona and the Realm of Torment). I could go deeper into this, but this is all terribly off topic.

That's true, but those are elements they used to incorporate in Nightfall. For example, in Prophecies, there already was a mention of Abaddon, namely Abaddon's Mouth. There are other references too, but the causality is all the same. They took elements from Prophecies and incorporated them into future campaigns. So just because there's a reference to Abaddon, does not imply they already had the entire backstory on Abaddon at that time. That scenario is even unlikely, and probably even impossible. Another example, in pre-Searing there's the character Mary Malone, the girl with the apples. In GW2, there's a market where you can buy Mallone apples. Following your logic, at the time of Prophecies they would have already known they would incorporate Mary's name in GW2.

I don't have any more time, sadly, as I'm leaving on holiday in like an hour. I would like to hear your thoughts, Konig, on what you said would be the second part of what I wrote. I'll try to read and comment on in while on vacation, but it might take me a while.

Konig Des Todes · Sep 07, 2012, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Some people find it harder to read because it lengthens the pages further by repeating and with the constant boxes.

1) On mursaat leaders, true, though he was a leader of some sort, I find this undeniable considering he led the other "high ranking" mursaat and typically the generals of a battlefield remain in the back of the line (e.g., where Caliph was). Talios always came off to me as the leader of the "last" seven mursaat. Though I personally suspect that Talios was merely the figurehead leader, and Lazarus was the mastermind... that's my hope at least, as it seems weird he'd not be active after EN.

2) On Rata Sum: Why does the tarnished coast have to be special to have settled there? It always seemed to me that is merely where they ended up when fleeing to the surface (perhaps due to the asura gates in the area, which further implies the ruins being asuran). As to the golden filgree - it's not "both and not asuran" because it's seen in the Central Transfer Chamber which is not built upon any ruins.

3) On age of the race: though it seems they weren't on Tyria for thousands of years. GW2 implies (perhaps will go further into it but I haven't seen such yet) that they left Tyria around 11,000 years ago and returned shortly before being found by Saul (if Rata Sum is indeed where Saul found the mursaat, then they were likely inhabiting ruins as well, and they were not mursaat made given this information). Though it's not really hard proof in GW2 either, yet.

4) On dimensional shifting: How would one see into another dimension? Ascension is stated to be the exact same as Weh no Su in An Empire Divided (or rather, the other way around). Weh no Su grants the ability to see spirits who can hide themselves from the living. This would imply that the mursaat's ability to hide themselves is of spectral origins, and not dimensional hopping (so to speak).

5) On Janthir: But Janthir isn't tied to the mursaat. All we know is 1) Saul supposedly traveled south to Janthir and got the Eye of Janthir; 2) its inhabitants have the Gift of True Sight; 3) Janthir is to the north. Points 1 and 2 come from the white mantle, point 3 comes from the GW2 world map. Nothing says the mursaat have the Gift of True Sight, and the White Mantle knight was clearly wrong on Janthir's location being to the south (unless Saul traveled to a teleporter which brought him north) which can mean he was wrong about other things.

And a person having an ability does not mean said person can attribute it to the land around them.

And Mehtu was referring to an island off the coast of Elona (when someone says "off the [] coast" they usually mean off of their coast, which for him would be Elona not the northern coast of Tyria which is probably a hundred or so miles away) - he also says far off the coast and Janthir... is not that far. What island do I believe he's referring to? Perhaps an island that's no longer there, thus we have no name for.

6) On the birds: Except that one such reference to birds is not outright known to be regarding mursaat. And in fact, the same goes for Glint's line - over the bones of the birds of prey... over the mursaat's bones? over the titan's "bones"? Over the undead's bones? Plenty of fallen enemies at that point.

As to the mursaat having avian attributes... I don't see it. Their "talons" are gloves. Their "wings" are... far from wings, imo. Their masks don't look like beaks in any way shape or form. I see nothing avian about their appearance.

7) The bits about Turai and Joko and Elonians on a whole were more than "elements from Prophecies" that they "incorproated [...] into future campaigns" - it was made for a future campaign. Same can go for other things just as well. I never said they had the entire backstory on Abaddon - in fact, I explicitly stated they did not have such - just as they didn't for Joko. They had a single line on Joko and created his backstory from there. Dark Oak's prophecy is a similar thing - it's a single, ambiguous, line that could be taken and expanded upon. Nothing outside in-universe speculation points it at being the White Mantle and mursaat, so it's very much possible, even if unlikely. Unless you were in Anet at the time of Prophecies' making, I don't think you can disprove it.

About your comment on Malone - they said a long time ago (during beta of Prophecies I think - drax would know more about it since he was around at the time and is where I got such info) that they were intending to do installment stories in sets of three - that is to say, Utopia had minimal concept in their mind, but Factions and Nightfall they did have in mind (even if not by those names).

Aeve Haleheart · Sep 27, 2012, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

1) On mursaat leaders, true, though he was a leader of some sort, I find this undeniable considering he led the other "high ranking" mursaat and typically the generals of a battlefield remain in the back of the line (e.g., where Caliph was). Talios always came off to me as the leader of the "last" seven mursaat. Though I personally suspect that Talios was merely the figurehead leader, and Lazarus was the mastermind... that's my hope at least, as it seems weird he'd not be active after EN.

Rest assured, we haven't heard the last of Lazarus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

2) On Rata Sum: Why does the tarnished coast have to be special to have settled there? It always seemed to me that is merely where they ended up when fleeing to the surface (perhaps due to the asura gates in the area, which further implies the ruins being asuran). As to the golden filgree - it's not "both and not asuran" because it's seen in the Central Transfer Chamber which is not built upon any ruins.

Ah yes, we can indeed find golden filigree in the CTC, but as I've said before, the Asura integrated the aesthetic sensibilities of the previous civilization in their own architecture. Therefore we can find these artistic elements in various Asuran locations. Concerning the question of Rata Sum's location, I merely pointed out that at least two civilizations have settled there. It's entirely possible the Asura chose to settle there solely because of the protective ruins already present, but this seems unlikely considering the technological constructions they are capable of creating. That's why I wonder why this exact location is so interesting to both the Asura and the unknown previous civilization.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

3) On age of the race: though it seems they weren't on Tyria for thousands of years. GW2 implies (perhaps will go further into it but I haven't seen such yet) that they left Tyria around 11,000 years ago and returned shortly before being found by Saul (if Rata Sum is indeed where Saul found the mursaat, then they were likely inhabiting ruins as well, and they were not mursaat made given this information). Though it's not really hard proof in GW2 either, yet.

In what way does GW2 imply this? Can you provide me with any information? Argh, it's at times like this I wish I had GW2 -.-

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

4) On dimensional shifting: How would one see into another dimension? Ascension is stated to be the exact same as Weh no Su in An Empire Divided (or rather, the other way around). Weh no Su grants the ability to see spirits who can hide themselves from the living. This would imply that the mursaat's ability to hide themselves is of spectral origins, and not dimensional hopping (so to speak).

Interesting... Amazing you should speak of "spectral origins". We all know spectral agony too well, and consider also the spectral crystals related to the Bloodstone, as mentioned in the quest Crystal Method. We should also remember one of the last Mursaat, Lucent the Spectral. Considering both alternatives, the theory of them hiding themselves in the way spirits do, but in the same dimension, as opposed to "dimensional hopping", your explanation seems more likely.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

5) On Janthir: But Janthir isn't tied to the mursaat. All we know is 1) Saul supposedly traveled south to Janthir and got the Eye of Janthir; 2) its inhabitants have the Gift of True Sight; 3) Janthir is to the north. Points 1 and 2 come from the white mantle, point 3 comes from the GW2 world map. Nothing says the mursaat have the Gift of True Sight, and the White Mantle knight was clearly wrong on Janthir's location being to the south (unless Saul traveled to a teleporter which brought him north) which can mean he was wrong about other things.

Here are the facts: Janthir is an island off the coast of Kryta. There's an autonomous entity referred to as the Eye of Janthir. It posesses the gift of True Sight. It is used by the White Mantle, who are controlled by the Mursaat, to identify the Chosen among the Krytan people, who are subsequently killed to prevent the prophecy of coming to pass. Saul also travelled to the Isle of Janthir and retrieved the Eye after having been initiated by the Mursaat. There are tablets of Janthir describing the lore and dogma of the White Mantle.

Considering the above, am I wrong to assume a connection between Janthir and the Mursaat?

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

6) On the birds: Except that one such reference to birds is not outright known to be regarding mursaat. And in fact, the same goes for Glint's line - over the bones of the birds of prey... over the mursaat's bones? over the titan's "bones"? Over the undead's bones? Plenty of fallen enemies at that point.

I will not debate you once again on the "carrion birds" line. It's clear we have conflicting opinions on it and we are sticking to them. About the Glint line, I'd say the following. Glint says that "over the bones of the birds of prey, the fire is put out and the diabolical gathering is closed off once again". I think it's clear she's referring to the Door of Komalie and the titans when she says "the diabolical gathering is closed off once again". That implies that the "birds of prey" are connected to this. Over whose bones did we close the Door of Komalie? Who was protecting it? Did we not wade through hundreds of Mursaat in the Ring of Fire to eventually open and subsequently close the Door of Komalie?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

As to the mursaat having avian attributes... I don't see it. Their "talons" are gloves. Their "wings" are... far from wings, imo. Their masks don't look like beaks in any way shape or form. I see nothing avian about their appearance.

Their talons are indeed armor. But I never said the Mursaat are birds themselves. They are, after all, still humanoid. I say they emulate birds. They replicate bird-like features through use of armor and other devices, such as their wings which do not seem to protrude from their backs, but are attached to some form of construction. And I shouldn't actually say wings, since they're more like feathers. Their masks do resemble avian heads in my opinion. But this is a subjective matter, I guess.