Curse

Arcanis the Omnipotent · Sep 30, 2005, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Saerden: You have not played through very much of PVE as a Mesmer, and anyone can tell it. You obviously know nothing about what your talking about, even with your big equations.

So tell me something, exactly at what point in this this equation did you forget about the 3-7 other members of the party you're working with?

Because your DoT formula acts in the sense that the Mesmer is the only person there. Wow... a Mesmer Solo? No wonder you dont know anything.

Even though your profession isnt listed, I'd swear you were a tank.

Saerden · Oct 02, 2005, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanis the Omnipotent

Saerden: You have not played through very much of PVE as a Mesmer, and anyone can tell it. You obviously know nothing about what your talking about, even with your big equations.

So tell me something, exactly at what point in this this equation did you forget about the 3-7 other members of the party you're working with?

Because your DoT formula acts in the sense that the Mesmer is the only person there. Wow... a Mesmer Solo? No wonder you dont know anything.

Even though your profession isnt listed, I'd swear you were a tank.

1. i dont play a profession, i play 8 skills.

2. A DoT is a DoT, no matter how many people you include. A skill, or a combination of skills ("combo") does not work differently under different circumstances. Math is math. What changes are synergies.
Conjure phantasm has slightly negative synergies: It uses 5 degen pips that cant be taken by other, more efficient DoTs. Not an issue normaly - but still. Phantom pain inflicts a deep wound. Again, there are better ways to do this.

Slowing, DoTing and then focus firing is actually a horrible idea.
The only thing your teammates would care about is when you do your nice little trick on an
offtarget warrior running amok amidst the casters. But then, why not just slow him with something that is not elite and do the dmg later with stuff that is more efficient?

3. You fail to provide reasons why the listed skills, especially conjur phantasm, are even worth bothering with. Things like "someone who suffers from 10 degen is easier to kill when focus fired by your teammates" is ... not really convincing to say it politely. Either there is a hidden mechanic that would allow DoTs to do something beyond the listed (poor) dmg, or the mob
would go down even faster when instead of the mesmer who just burned 35 of his energy, a warrior would be pen/evisc/exec the poor sob.

4. coolsti: mesmers have some fun skills, but fun is something entirely different. There is no point arguing about that. Just remember that we are talking about "facts" here - you can still do a 6 mesmer / 2 monks team and surge-spike everything

Actually, i would love to try this one day ...

5. octaviancmb: i think you are right - being a good mesmer is hard as hell though. Especially since meteor shower and maelstorm do everything a mesmer should do: shutdown.

Ende · Oct 02, 2005, 10:34 PM // 22:34

as someone who has played every profession in the game (pve) to a certain degree, i have to say mesmer is my favorite. but, at the same time i agree that some skills are nearly useless in later stages of the game and the entire class is somewhat lacking efficiency compared to an ele or even a necro.

interrupt? so what? there are five other casters out there casting the same spell. chaos storm? damage is pathetic in comparison and energy denial is near impossible against high-end monsters. degen? when a monster has tons of health as they do, degen becomes insignificant, 200 damage over 15 seconds or so is nothing to brag about. ask an ele what he can do to an entire mob in 15 seconds. in pve you need to kill as many creatures FAST, else they will kill you. so basically the entire illusion attribute line is inferior in pve, since it will only target a single creature and usually will not take it out.

or maybe that final monk boss and his other monk friend healing eachother forever? one meteor shower/maelstorm and the warriors distracting blow the other = problem solved.

even empathy, which had a nice comfortable place on my skillbar for 3/4 of the game is now out.

a few skills do have a nice aoe spiking damage. like energy surge and shatter hex (one of my favorites). seeing 120 damage on half a screen full of monsters is heartwarming. backfire is good spike damage on casters, and good to negate healing spells. and there are a few others that can deal some nice damage. again, nothing better than an elementalist or warrior with the right set of skills.

BUT usually, most pugs cannot rely on the warrior taking distracting blow or the ranger packing interrupt (everyone wants to deal damage, right?). eles will take meteor shower but that's about it. and so we get people spending 30 minutes to kill two healers and eventually lose the mission. any decent mesmer will make sure that doesn't happen. if we're fighting a monk and it's taking too long it's because i'm messing up.

the proud mesmers that i've seen and talked to, will play with all their heart and all their intellect. we live for that one battle, for that one power spike on that last spell when half the team is dead. we live to help others do their jobs better, and if that's the kind of thinking any player of any profession feels, i want him on my team.

pvp? that's a totally different story. but that's in another time.

coolsti · Oct 03, 2005, 07:34 AM // 07:34

A comment on the post by Ende:

when evaluating the worth of a Mesmer, the strategy of "all targetting the same enemy" and fighting a group quickly one-by-one in this manner should be remembered.

Good groups play this way. Someone targets, and everyone goes after the targetted enemy. That way a mob group is knocked down far easier than when everyone goes after their own target.

And this is where a Mesmer so nicely fits in. If the target is a spellcaster, the Mesmer interrupts, steals energy, etc. If the target is a warrior or ranger, the mesmer uses clumsiness, ineptitude, or whatever stops melee and ranged shooting. Or a hex breaker does wonders for the team's warriors. It must be far easier for the rest of the team to kill the targetted foe when it is blinded (e.g. ineptitude), spell-interrupted, attack-blocked (e.g. clumsiness), etc., or when a hex is removed from a warrior, doing damage to all surrounding foes.

The point is, a Mesmer alone against a crowd is not very effective, that is for sure. But a Mesmer aiding the team with any other foe is fantastic!

Regarding chaos storm: this is a spell that maybe should not be used by a high level Mesmer - such damage is better done by an elementalist. But try using arcane echo + chaos storm + chaos storm (using echo to use chaos storm twice in a row in the same location). Double the chaos storm damage, and that is more effective.

Ende · Oct 03, 2005, 11:55 AM // 11:55

coolsti, the strategy you mention is indeed prevailing (i did not beat the game and gotten all skills by targeting random monsters

). yet for the price of clumsiness+empathy+whatever, the elementalist can bring meteor shower and interrupt+damage+knockdown EVERYTHING. sure a mesmer is a nice added bonus, but is not considerably better in single target shutdown than many other professions like hammer warrior or interrupt ranger, who can do the mesmer's job with some added, significant, damage bonus.

regarding the echoed chaos storm: i use that a lot myself, but we have to admit, there are better, more powerful aoe spells to echo. an ele/mesmer can echo much more damage per second.

hex breaker? for the team warriors? i assume you mean shatter hex, and if so then i totally agree and wrote about it in my post. removing a hex AND spiking tons of damage on a huge area is great. i pack this one almost every time (unless i know not many hexes are thrown in an area).

i do agree that it seems teams do better in pve when a mesmer is around (a good mesmer that is) but my argument is that it is not due to the particular skills a mesmer brings along, but due to the nature of high level mesmer players, who notice which skills are used by mobs and teammates, who notice the status of the battle, who watch people's lifebars and in general develop overtime. i know from my experience that playing a mesmer in pve has made me a better player altogether, regardless of what class i choose to play.

as someone else (don't remember who) wrote once: i'd rather bring a mesmer, at least they read the skill descriptions.

keep them comments coming. i'm dying someone will convince me otherwise. it will make me even more proud of playing my favorite class.

Louis Ste Colombe · Oct 03, 2005, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Echoed Chaos Storm?

It goes without saying that a mesmer got to change its skill bar to match what the team will meet on its way, probably more than any other class.

IMO, a mesmer is better used diverting off target. Everyone focus on a target, but the mesmer diverting other spellcaster, either interrupting or draining dry, or backfire/diversion (during recharge time).
What's the point hexing for 10/20 sec someone that will die in the next 5 sec? Isn't that better to shutdown a caster that is NOT going to die anytime soon, while your team kill all the others. No reason to take down the shutdown caster anytime soon...
The last ennemy I want dead is the one with Sympathetic Visage on it... Or the drained monk with 0 energy. Let it live, kill other stuff first!

Good mesmers don't follow called target.

Louis,

Ende · Oct 03, 2005, 12:49 PM // 12:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis Ste Colombe

Good mesmers don't follow called target.

well i think it depends. most of the time if there is a monk it will get targeted first and then we all follow target. sometimes you can leave the enemy caster to do his thing and just bash thru and leave him for last. sometimes you need the tanks to keep the mobs busy while the ranged attackers/casters pound on the monk behind... every battle is slightly different and that's what's so cool about GW.

A good PLAYER imo is one that is quick to adapt to changing situations, follow targets yet takes initiative to help his teammates, and knows which skills to bring and use in any given situation.

p.s. also, imo backfire cannot be considered shutdown in pve, as they will cast thru it and unless someone is pounding on that same target most of the time it will not kill them. and even if it kills them, there's usually one or two others right next to that fiend who will cast uninterrupted.

FalconDance · Oct 03, 2005, 01:11 PM // 13:11

Well, my Mesmer is a lowly level 17 and has only peeked in the 'door' of Sorrow's Furnace (having gotten herself there solo with only henchies as backup). BUT she can be, and has been, an enemy's worst nightmare come true time and time again!

Perhaps Phantasm and the others are more-than-worthless at higher levels of play, but for the first 2/3 of the game, they can be some of the best skills to use, especially if going solo with henchies. Heck, I've been in what should have been kick-ass groups who were *far* less helpful than henches (and that takes some doing!).

As for everyone targetting the same enemy........once I see that an enemy is taken care of, I can throw the much maligned Phantasm their way and turn to the next one to start the process of death long before a warrior disengages and re-engages the fight. In essence, in a decent group, a mesmer can not only shut the baddie down, they can more effectively and much more quickly bring the battle to fruition...........if they know their skills and are allowed to do their job by the warriors/leaders of the group.

Typically I go solo with henchies (if need fodder...., I mean, backup) in PvE. I'd like to be able to say I've played with great groups and there have been a couple, but for the most part, a group of six (or 8) goes out on a mission and it seems that five (seven) decide to go their own way fighting and then get all pissy when the mission fails. I advertise for a TEAM who can work together---and every now and then I find one.

The only class I've found to be less respected and recognized is Ranger. My level 13 is shunned by everyone (except two individuals) for group play because of her class.....and she's the one who is the most successful at runs, long-range enemy take-downs and all around get-you-there! Seems to me people need to bring out the D&D rulebooks again and re-read class descripts.

coolsti · Oct 03, 2005, 01:22 PM // 13:22

I wonder.

I can see the point that a good task for a Mesmer in certain situations is to cast off target in order to disrupt some irritating spellcasters in the background. I do this a lot.

And I can see the point that there is no point in a Mesmer hexing a foe that is about to die anyway because 3 Warriors and 2 Rangers are beating on him.

But I have played a lot in PVE parties where there was only one Warrior, or even if there were more, it seemed to take an effort to knock down each foe. And in this case, and assuming there is no more irritating spellcaster around, isn't it better to aid the foe that the others are trying to kill quickly with a little bit of -HP degradation or maybe a little bit of attack blocking? Does that not help in this situation? Or doesn't it matter in the least?

I think one thing to remember is that this is a game, at least the PVE portion of it, and Anet has obviously created the Mesmer profession to make the game more interesting. It could be argued that you can do without a Mesmer at any time, taking instead an extra Warrior, or an Elementalist, or whatever. But people play Mesmers, and it adds diversity to the game. And diversity to the team strategy, if the team cares to work together as a team. I might say no to having too many Mesmers on the team (actually, had a lot of fun the other night with 3 Mesmers in a party of 6) but I would never say no to at least one Mesmer.

I play a lot with only henchies with my Mesmer, simply because I can do things like Elite skill hunting in a relaxed pace. Maybe the henchies at level 20 are darn good, but for some reason, I seem to do extremely well with them when I equip the correct skills. Maybe next time I go out and do this, I will target, but not cast any spells, and see how well the henchies do without my Mesmer help

What is confusing about echoed chaos storm, by the way? It may not be the best thing to do, but when I go out with only henchies in an area filled with large mobs, it seems pretty effective when I cast two times chaos storm near my tanking warriors. I think I am giving 12 damage times 2 per second for a lot of seconds = a lot of damage. Makes it easy for the warriors to clean up after. Nice thing here is that the computer enemy doesn't know enough to move out of the chaos storm area. And yes, doing this with an elementalist would maybe be much more effective, but this is me playing my Mesmer, not me playing my Elementalist, and besides arcane echo and chaos storm, I have 6 other more diverse skills equipped.

Regarding Rangers (previous post): I am playing a ranger now together with some friends, and am just about to ascend. And I would say that rangers are great! I am equipping a trap, and distracting shot and savage shot among others, and I can really disrupt a lot of skills and spells with the latter two. If I can get away with it, I set a trap at the start of each battle and even during the longer battles if possible, and it has proven extremely helpful in case the monks and elementalist get mobbed (I tell them to run past me, since I stand where I set the trap).

Lord Tekster · Oct 03, 2005, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by octaviancmb

But neither we nor our necrotic buddies (who, like us, have no difficulties at all dealing massive damage regardless of armor or terrain barriers) never get any cred. Even in the unlikely event we are invited into groups, the other professions get all the props.

Typical l33t Wa/Mo: "i pwn3d th4t m0k b0ss!!! i r0x0rz" Nevermind the 294 damage our "pointless" backfire did in 3 seconds, the diversions that locked the mob down, or the enchanments we removed off it. Nope, it was all you, Warrior.

exactly just been in a group on my me/mo playing hex removal/prot in this 6 man farm group so since there is just me and another monk the group says they should kick me but i know the leader so they stick with it. Anyway half way through clearing out sorrows furnace the warrior starts getting arrogant saying our group didnt need me and should have just been 5 people.
Right, thats really ticked me off so i say:
'ok since you dont need me carry on i'll brb'
remove life bond from w/mo and in 2 minutes im rebirthing the whole team laughing at them.

Zhou Feng · Oct 03, 2005, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobsura

How can you judge if a Mesmer is any good i am not doing spike damage, i am not focus firing, i am hanging back cause of armor level, most of the time i am being chased around and not being healed because i am just a mesmer, and if i die i don't get rezzed until the fight is over. You also can't judge a mesmer until your in the fight which brings me back to the original point of getting on a team. For ever 1 person who wants a mesmer on thier team there is 1000 who don't. To make things worse i got bored waiting in towns trying to find PUGs so i made a new character and guess what it was a Necro.
Same thing so i erased him and made a monk, maybe i can get in groups with him.

I love picking up mesmers for my group because of all their abilities. Too bad you erased yours I would have been glad to bring you along. And since IM THE healer no one can say jack.

XioleD · Oct 03, 2005, 05:39 PM // 17:39

hmmz, you know why our team always own in Tomb, BECAUSE we have good mesmer in guild... Bye Bye Monk, Bye Bye Ele. whith good mesmer, they cant do anything because they dont have energy, or lose loads of health with casting spells. Good that other people don't understand the use of mesmers ...

Sister Rosette · Oct 03, 2005, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Agreed. My Me/N can rock the box in both PvP and PvE.
Conjure F/Life Siphon the crap out of someone, and when someone
is about to heal them, throw Mark of Subversion on them.

The spell fails. They die. You get health. <3

Precur · Oct 03, 2005, 07:10 PM // 19:10

The biggest problem Mesmers face are the loads of Nimrods who dont understand anything but bash, nuke and heal coupled with this (Me, Myself and I) attitude .. ie ... res is for noobs .. i need my slots for uber damage skill .. Mesmers suxs boot him .. ya cant do this mission without 3 monks 2 eles & 3 warriors. Why three monks? its to cover their mistakes .. when you know what is happening and that prevention > healing the need for monks is non-essential.

Alot of people fail doing Thirsty River, Thunderhead Keep or Hell's Percipise because it demands teamwork, comprenhesion of the mission and mobs within it.

So yeah it's a tough life being one of the unpopular (misunderstood) professions of this game (ie.. Necros. Mesmers and Rangers) the only advise I can say is henchies are your best friends but when you do fall upon a good group add them to your friends list.

Pax

Tallanka · Oct 03, 2005, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Guildies FTW!

Brother Redmund · Oct 05, 2005, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Hi,

thought i should contribute since my first (and favourite) char in GW is my Me/N. firstly i know what you mean about HOH and FOW, i am trying to get some fame/rank going and have not been in a winning team for weeks, its killing me!!!
As for sorrows furnace, i would like to point out my experience from farming there last weekend. A guild mate (ascended lvl20 wa/mo) and myself as a mesmer, and the two monk henches in a group of four successfully farmed almost all of sorrows furnace in a single run!!! we killed like 12 or so bosses and were fortunate enough to share about 7-8 greens between us.
I now believe that sorrows farming is about technique, not numbers. quite frankly my mesmer dealt some serious dmg to the stone summit and required the tank simply to hold them away from me while casting. dont depair get a good small group (guild mates or friends preferably) be prepared to farm over 3 hours in a single run and you will be fine.
anyone who says mesmers are useless either: (a) has never had a good mesmer in their group; or (b) simply is too dimwitted enough to understand the subtlety with which a good mesmer can annihilate an enemy. good luck never give up on the mesmer they are essential to a good team build

Maika Boila Radovu · Oct 05, 2005, 06:09 AM // 06:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Redmund

Hi,

thought i should contribute since my first (and favourite) char in GW is my Me/N. firstly i know what you mean about HOH and FOW, i am trying to get some fame/rank going and have not been in a winning team for weeks, its killing me!!!
As for sorrows furnace, i would like to point out my experience from farming there last weekend. A guild mate (ascended lvl20 wa/mo) and myself as a mesmer, and the two monk henches in a group of four successfully farmed almost all of sorrows furnace in a single run!!! we killed like 12 or so bosses and were fortunate enough to share about 7-8 greens between us.
I now believe that sorrows farming is about technique, not numbers. quite frankly my mesmer dealt some serious dmg to the stone summit and required the tank simply to hold them away from me while casting. dont depair get a good small group (guild mates or friends preferably) be prepared to farm over 3 hours in a single run and you will be fine.
anyone who says mesmers are useless either: (a) has never had a good mesmer in their group; or (b) simply is too dimwitted enough to understand the subtlety with which a good mesmer can annihilate an enemy. good luck never give up on the mesmer they are essential to a good team build

Could you possibly post or PM me your rough build as I'm looking for Ideas. I have a lvl 20 Me/R ascended but not infused, just now got all the attribute points I can get.

I want to play around with using the R interupt skills in conjunction with the mesmer shutdown skills. Like I said I would like some ideas on builds and skills how you used what to acomplish what goals. I hope thats not too much to ask.

PS Mesmers rock the free world!

widowdaballa · Oct 05, 2005, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Mesmers suck!! Well, just the henchman mesmer does lol! I like a good mesmer in a PUG i make anyday!

Sai of Winter · Oct 05, 2005, 08:11 AM // 08:11

Mesmers are good for any mission/quest and farming. People just got to know how to use their skills correctly. Sometimes it is always good to bring a Mesmer along because their skills work effectively. I have always wonder if only Pros play as Mesmers, just a thought.

Saerden · Oct 05, 2005, 08:58 AM // 08:58

More discussion, more good points, and the obligatory recomendation of suboptimal skills. Plus some of the typical attitude: a good [misunderstood class here] is just to subtle for you stupid tank.

Anyone interested in discussing mesmer skills that are SUPERIOR to what a third monk or a third ele can do? A mesmer may be able to do this and that, but i had enough mesmers that brought chaos storm and the like for my lifetime...

My ranger had an easier time with henches (thirsty is easy, never tried elona, got a run) then a warrior because of range. Easier controlling henches this way. Same thing can be said for a mesmer. Because henches are suboptimal dmg, healing and almost no real support, a good mesmer or ranger actually helps them shine. Cynn will use some stupid combos, mobs dont just die seeing her. So shutting down someone has an effect, because while mhenlo and lina can heal, they are in no way comparable to the mo/me or mo/n.

In a good player team, you will never notice, because the ele has echo /dual attunement/glyph of energy and not mind burn, the healing monk has a great build instead of the medicore, and the prot monk does not bring prot spirit into pve (or at least dont use it on warriors). The warrior does either tank or use pen/evisc/exec. And not the dreaded wild blow -> exec combo

A bad PUG is not realiable enough to work with a mesmer. A good PUG is good enough to completely ignore support and anihilate any easy pve challenge there is.

experimental / fun builds are one part of GW, but efficiency is the other. I've yet to see [more] reasons why mesmers are needed in a group that knows what they are doing. Sure they wont hurt either. But lets be honest. Ive seen eles with flare. Mesmers with conjure phantasm are nothing compared to that.

On a different note - any necros that want to try out minion master / sacrifice builds in pve?