Curse

Tarot Ribos · Sep 10, 2005, 03:03 AM // 03:03

Quote:

Tell me about it, as a primary elementalist I'm still shocked at the damage shatter hex can do. Empathy is just an awesome DoT, from a damage/mana standpoint it is so much better than most elementalist spells (even with their attunement), I don't know why people don't use it more often.

And these are things that I can use as a _secondary_ mesmer. I shudder to think at the nasty toys a primary mesmer could play with.

Empathy is an awesome PvE spell... running some very rough and quick approximations, I can deal over 300 damage with that skill. (19 seconds, 29 damage each attack, attack more than once every 2 seconds...)

Warriors: you need to be stronger than your opponent to win.
Elementalists: you need to deal more damage than your opponent to win.
Monks: you need to recover more health than they can deal damage to win.

Mesmers: You need to be smarter than your opponent to win. At least in PvP.

Blindly flinging Mesmer spells gets you sub-par progress at best, nowhere most likely, and gets you killed at worst. You have to be able to anticipate what your opponent will do.

Symbol · Sep 10, 2005, 03:47 AM // 03:47

Quote:

Empathy is an awesome PvE spell... running some very rough and quick approximations, I can deal over 300 damage with that skill. (19 seconds, 29 damage each attack, attack more than once every 2 seconds...)

Yup. My final build aims to have 10 in domination. That's 16 seconds of 23 damage per attack. Assuming an average of 1.75 seconds per attack (wand speed) we get a total damage 207 _armor ignoring_ damage from ONE cast. Compare that to, say, lightning javelin which is 69 damage to an AL 60 target for the same 10 mana. And with three other air nukes I can't even take advantage of javelin's spammability...I'll only have the opportunity to cast it two or three times in a 30 second period.

Quote:

Blindly flinging Mesmer spells gets you sub-par progress at best, nowhere most likely, and gets you killed at worst. You have to be able to anticipate what your opponent will do.

The problem is that people look at mesmer spells, look at the condition required to trigger damage, and immediately discount them without taking into account how easy that condition is to trigger. It's quite shortsighted, but their loss I suppose.

Also I disagree that mesmer spells require anticipation. They require strategy (to select skill combos that force people to do what you want) and timing (to interrupt), but IMO you don't need to _anticipate_ .

kirgr526 · Sep 10, 2005, 09:29 AM // 09:29

I have been playing a Mesmer in PvE since the game was released, and I have to say she's probably the reason my other three characters haven't ascended yet. All in all, I have been very lucky with the PUGs I have joined/started, only have had one bad experience, which was in the Bloodstone Fen. Ended up being 3 of us and Alesia for the end fight, and I believe the other two people probably would say I did nothing

, probably attributed what I did to Alesia Warrior Priestess

.
Anyway, the best thing is I was in my guild early, before they formed any opinions on Mesmers, and was able to shape those opinions somewhat myself. Unfortunately, she gained a reputation as a bitch, from being the leader in the Wilds.
Still there have been many times I have wanted to cast Backfire/Clumsiness/Crty of Frustration on my PUG members

, is it wrong for me to have such thoughts?
Mesmers of the world unite, together we will rule the world, shame no one would know or give recognition

.

De Luci · Sep 10, 2005, 10:35 AM // 10:35

I play mesmer since game release, i saw in the 1st month that it is hard for me to find a group, so i did entire game with hencies : /
Maybe few things with REAL ppl

Numa Pompilius · Sep 10, 2005, 10:41 AM // 10:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Yup. My final build aims to have 10 in domination. That's 16 seconds of 23 damage per attack. Assuming an average of 1.75 seconds per attack (wand speed) we get a total damage 207 _armor ignoring_ damage from ONE cast.

Lighting javelin is an interrupt which also does a little bit of damage. Empathy is a conditional DoT. They're not really comparable.

funbun · Sep 10, 2005, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirgr526

Still there have been many times I have wanted to cast Backfire/Clumsiness/Crty of Frustration on my PUG members

, is it wrong for me to have such thoughts?

Nope. As a monk I get a lot of flank. The game is no fun as a monk. I'd rather smite my own team than to play with arogant humans.

Enigmatics · Sep 10, 2005, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Considering it's PvE, most people don't like the subtle, interrupt/degen/energy-denial/shutdown/non-existant dps approach. There are simple reasons for not having a mesmer. For example, they can do decent single-target damage, but are surpassed by the sheer AOE power of a fire elementalist. You may get 200 damage with an empathy, but nukers will get 300+ with a simple firestorm, and that's just to a single target. What else, really, can they do for PvE? Interrupt a few casts from enemies, or steal their energy? Mesmers are too single-target focused, and skills like Chaos Storm are the worst way of trying to make up for that.

octaviancmb · Sep 10, 2005, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enigmatics

For example, they can do decent single-target damage, but are surpassed by the sheer AOE power of a fire elementalist. You may get 200 damage with an empathy, but nukers will get 300+ with a simple firestorm, and that's just to a single target. What else, really, can they do for PvE?

There's no Elementalist who can outdamage my Mesmer in GF/SF. Echo + Shatter Hex = 254 AoE armor ignoring damage every 15 seconds until I run out of hex-mobs...but by then pretty much everything's dead anyway. Add to the AoE damage the single-target killers Empathy and Backfire, the AoE interrupt Cry of Frustration (excellent for stopping those annoying giant stomps), and a wee bit of energy management, and a Mesmer is a cool, collected nuclear bomb without the mess and fuss of Elementalist special effects or having to look at a secondary profession.

And I've not even gone into the glories of the Illusion line, energy denial, shutdown, or any number of other roles a Mesmer has to offer to a group.

I hope you can now begin to see how frustrating it is when a Mesmer has trouble finding groups (throughout the entire game...), Monks just let us fall over and die, and nobody ever, ever says, "Nice work, Mesmer," after we've killed everything.

But I'm not bitter. Ok, maybe a little.
cmb

Numa Pompilius · Sep 10, 2005, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Enigmatics: mesmers aren't really about damage, they're a support class. Mesmers are about screwing things up for the enemy so they do less damage and are easier to kill for the damage dealers. That said, my backfire does 140 damage every time a mage casts a spell; my shatter hex and shatter delusions does 140 damage to all enemies close to my target; and my empathy does 340 damage to any sword or axe warrior dumb enough to keep fighting.

Chaos storm isn't a massive damage spell - it only does 140 damage total and the AoE is small - but the beauty of it is that it sucks energy from casters standing in it. Oh I pop it on melee mobs when there's no casters around, as it's cheap and does do damage, but that's not why I carry it.

Mesmers work just fine for PvE, even though they cant really solo (without henches). I've now fought my way to Sorrows Furnace with my mesmer and 2-4 henches (Alesia & Stefan and now also Lina & Orion) and it's actually getting easier and easier the further I get in the game.

What can mesmers do in PvE? Well, I can keep my team free of hexes while doing spike damage to the enemy, kill or shut down their casters, slow enemy healing, and keep enemy mesmers from shutting down the casters in my team. And make enemies spamming any skill take one whole minute to recharge that skill. That's gotta be worth something even though mesmers aren't killing machines.

It's in PvP my mesmer have difficulties because she rapidly annoys the entire enemy team, get targetted by multiple enemies, and don't have the tankability of eles and monks or the sprintability of rangers.

Symbol · Sep 10, 2005, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Lighting javelin is an interrupt which also does a little bit of damage. Empathy is a conditional DoT. They're not really comparable.

Lightning javelin is a shitty interrupt. 1 sec casting time? No air elementalist is going to use javelin for its interrupting capabilities. They pick it because of its five second recharge.

But if you already have a raft of other(better) air nukes you start thinking, is there are another way to get the most bang out of a single spell. And empathy is a good fit if you are a mesmer secondary.

Quote:

ou may get 200 damage with an empathy, but nukers will get 300+ with a simple firestorm, and that's just to a single target.

No, they won't. Your numbers do not match reality. Firestorm will do 300 damage MAX over that 10 seconds with 16 in fire and a 60AL target. With 16 in domination Empathy will do 320 damage over its life time assuming an attack speed of 1 attack/1.75 seconds. If you're smart and put it on a fast attacking melee opponent you get even more.

And firestorm has a horrendously long casting time of 4 seconds with a recharge of 30. Empathy is 2 seconds and 10 second recharge. For DoT to a single target there's _no_ comparison.

Look I'm not claiming that mesmers are superior damage dealers. They aren't. They don't have enough skills to do that. But what skills they do have can be very effective at putting out the hurt.

NeXuS8 · Sep 10, 2005, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Mesmers still good but not for PvE they arent to required
-Hard to Heal (since they dont have much healing spells unless there monk)
-Take dmg

But on PvP they can be effective for me that i usually use warrior, one time they brought me down 2 mesmers with like degen of 10, and they could kill invinci monks

Kai Nui · Sep 10, 2005, 03:42 PM // 15:42

That's nice to hear people accept mesmers and that if I'm good enough I'll be accepted and yadda yadda but I'm a me/mo and I know that's sadly untrue. There aren't people that want us, so we're just forced to play with henchmen... It's the truth, I've never been invited to a group unless they were a friend or the quest/mission specifically needs a mesmer to interrupt or something.

Cunning · Sep 10, 2005, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Regarding the original post, I'v noticed more Mesmers in the War Camp than anywhere else in the game. Especially Mesmers with completely black 15k enchanter's sets. I've seen quite a few groups looking for mesmers lately.

I have to say that my Mesmer is the only character I actually enjoy playing, and I make sure that I stand out more than anyone else in any groups. I always take Cry of Frustration plus another two interrupts so everyone can blatantly see that I'm doing something (and because those skills are useful). I also ctrl-click when I use Shatter Hex, so monks and necros stop using their crappy hex removals that do nothing to the enemy.

I've also noticed that whenever I recieve an invite to join a group the leader will most likely be a Monk; they understand how powerful you are.

Maxiemonster · Sep 10, 2005, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Mesmer (and Necros) are great in some builds, but in some builds, they just don't fit. You can't help it either. And if you can't find a group, make one yourself (or make another character, but that takes a while

).

SeTsU · Sep 10, 2005, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Thing is, IMO, Mesmers keep getting dumped because some W/E/Mo freaks don't see them outputting as much damage as they can but since they're so focused spitting around every skill in their skill bars barely watching what they're doing they don't realise the amount of help a good Mesmer gives in a serious fight. Sure, a Mesmer can't do much if everyone else gets killed (against W and R mostly) but it still doesn't mean they're useless! :P

The most hillarious (in the bad way) thing I ever saw using my N/Me was in PvP, the other team got a few monks and while I smashed away their Orisons and Ressurections my team kicked the guts out of them. When the fight was over it was like "Those were some n00b monks didnt rez or heal oh noes!"

.

Left the game as soon as they said that...

*sigh*

Maximus Deo · Sep 10, 2005, 05:57 PM // 17:57

I guess its what you called Snob group leader..if youre not a Monk or Warrior/Monk u basically relegate to a 2d class citizen. unless the Mesmer is the group leader even then he/she will be the only one (or two) in the group.

CKaz · Sep 11, 2005, 09:13 PM // 21:13

guild(s) and expand your friends list for the primary mesmer

it's tough to because the fast cast primary excels in PvP - usually the click isn't unnaturally key (as mentioned earlier the AI will spam same stuff, if still have a problem slow down the caster with illusion options - you don't NEED fast cast in PvE)

now I played the crap out of my E/ME which yes at times was more or all mesmer - but I get energy storage. which usually is a lot more (obviously) useful for PvE.

anyways I hear your pain, I know what mesmers can do and I don't shut them out. smaller pool but you can drain it all back - thing is a lot of players havent taken the mesmer dip. as they do they go '...woah!'

one would hope that over time it'd be easier for ya..
lord knows the only class hollered for over and over and over for is the monk

Alathys Tylderaan · Sep 11, 2005, 09:40 PM // 21:40

In regard to the OP:

You can come play mesmer with me anytime, pop me on your friends, i'm playing around in SF a fair bit at the moment, I could use a mesmer when i'm playing my other chars (the ones that aren't my mesmer

)

Dead Panda · Sep 11, 2005, 10:17 PM // 22:17

In all the times I sat around with my necro in war camp, I've only seen ONE mesmer ever. I haven't been in a single pug that had a mesmer, not including secondaries.

Even my necro gets into more groups. =/ We need to start up a pug or something here.

The problem is, well, most groups can do fine without. Granted they could do better, but the truth is, them being really useful is completely outshined by the reliabilty of other classes (i.e. the trinity). People rather have classes that beat the snot out of people by pure damage than shutting down and having it easier.

Yeah.

Cartoonhero · Sep 11, 2005, 10:40 PM // 22:40

i dont have a mesmer character, but i do love to play with them. a mesmer who knows how to use his skills can be deadly. i played with two mesmers on the last mission of the game and beat it first time through. they raped everything. so dont diss a mesmer. give em a chance, and you'll see what i mean.