Curse

shifteleven · Oct 29, 2005, 01:16 PM // 13:16

Well, not that it's anything new, but I can confirm that the Hearty/Dire/Elder evolutions DO make a difference in the health total of your pet.

A group of guildies and I took 3 level 20 pets into the desert, all of us spec'ed to 12 BM, one Elder Black Widow, one Hearty Black Widow, and one Dire Black Widow. We sic'ed all three of them on a Sand Drake, who proceeded to use Aftershock. A fixed-damage point blank AE makes a great health test for pets, and we found:

The Dire Pet lost roughly 20% of his hitpoint total.
The Elder Pet lost roughly 18% of his hitpoint total.
The Hearty Pet lost roughly 5-8% of his hitpoint total.

It was easy for us to run this test several times, just zoning in and out (the Sand Drake is the first creature just outside Elona Reach). Every time we got these exact same results....The Hearty Pet REALLY seemed to take the beating, even better than we had expected. We did not use any spells, calls, pet attacks, etc, and didn't bring any henchman...so we're certain that all three pets were subjected to the exact same amount of damage at the exact same time.

I'm speculating that perhaps the Hearty pet has a higher armor rating, because it makes no sense that an Aftershock would deal 20% damage to a Dire, and only 5-8% to a Hearty, even with the difference of 120 hitpoints between them. However, we didn't have any way to determine exactly how much damage, or exactly what % of their current health was lost, so the test is plenty flawed.

More tests to come in the near future, I'd love to find the exact hitpoint totals of each pet evolution. If anyone has any ideas or advice as to how to better test the pet evolution differences, post or PM me and let me know

IGN: Aubree Wild.

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Edit: Tested the Aftershock damage against different Armor Ratings. The Aftershock *should* have dealt 74 damage to each pet, if it were true that they all have the same armor rating. And if their hitpoint totals were as speculated, we should have seen:

The Dire Pet lost 16.8% of his hitpoint total.
The Elder Pet lost roughly 14.8% of his hitpoint total.
The Hearty Pet lost roughly 13.2% of his hitpoint total.

But the hearty pet didn't lose anywhere near that amount of health, and the Dire lost significantly more than 17%. When the aftershock hit, the dire and elder pets were always VERY close in health, only 2-3% difference tops. The Hearty was always extremely far from each of them. The spread in the hitpoint totals of the pets was far more than 4%, which the math would suggest.

I think this further proves that the pets may have different armor ratings, and possibly not different hitpoint totals. I'll try to run a test using healing spells after the aftershock to see exactly how much healing it takes to repair the damage after the aftershock, and therefore see how much each pet is really taking >_>

Jenosavel · Oct 29, 2005, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by shifteleven

If anyone has any ideas or advice as to how to better test the pet evolution differences, post or PM me and let me know

I believe the hit point tests were calucated by timing how long a full-health pet could stand in poison before dying. The very steady and predictable damage from poison, when combined with a reliable timing method and multiple tries, will give very accurate results for pet HP.

While the idea that the different evolutions may have diffferent armor ratings is interesting and should definitely be explored, I don't think throwing out the idea of differing HP levels is appropriate. The poison example completely ignores any armor, and the pets have been seen to last for differing lengths of time.

I will note, however, that I haven't used the poison method myself. I've merely read others' accounts of it.

shifteleven · Oct 29, 2005, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Thanks Jenosavel, I appreciate the idea! Poison tests would be a great idea to calculate hitpoints.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shifteleven

I think this further proves that the pets may have different armor ratings, and possibly not different hitpoint totals.

I don't intend to throw out the idea of pets having different hitpoint totals, though I will do some poison tests and try to estimate their hitpoint totals on my own, since I take everything I read around here with a grain of salt

However, like I said, the damage on the hearty seemed to be far less than it should have been, even with the increased hitpoint total, leading me to believe that armor rating may vary between pets.

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Edit: First poison test done, and I can confirm that the Elder Black Widow has exactly 500 health. I need to wait for my buddies with Hearty and Dire spiders to log on, I'll edit this message when I get a chance to test them >_>

Valerius · Oct 29, 2005, 06:01 PM // 18:01

yeah... poison is how the tests were done in the past

look forward to seeing ur results... thx

Mercury Angel · Oct 29, 2005, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Why not a set percentage sacrafice and Grenth's Balance?

Let's say for the sake of example that-

You have 480 health.
Base pet health is also 480.

Hearty pet has 540 health
Dire pet has 420 health.

You sacrafice 17% to one of the many 17% sacs. You now have 399 health.

You use Grenth's Balance on Hearty pet;
It takes 71 damage, you are healed for 70, both of you have 469 health.

Now, assume we didn't know the initial Hearty pet's health, so we take your current health, add the damage dealt to the Hearty pet, 71, and we get 540.

Then to Dire;

yadda yadda, 399 health for you.
Grenth's Balance-
11 damage ,10 healing for you, both of you have 409 health.

Add the damage dealt to Dire pet to your current health, and we get 420.

In case the pets have less health than how much you sacrafice to, it may be best to use a more expensive sacrafice, such as Verata's Aura for 33%.

shifteleven · Oct 29, 2005, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Alright, poison tests were done, and I can confirm exactly what was already posted here:

Dire Black Widow: 440 Health. (Averaged 55 seconds to die in poison)
Elder Black Widow: 500 Health. (Averaged 63 seconds to die in poison)
Hearty Black Widow: 560 Health. (Averaged 70 seconds to die in poison)

I'm going to use this information to test the pets for possible AL differences, since I don't think this has been explored yet.

Edit: Media Reign tested the pet ALs by sic'ing them on Sand Drakes outside Elona Reach. After the Aftershock, we'd use Comfort Animal, Orision of Healing, etc - until we pinpointed the amount of damage each pet took (and thus the healing needed to reach full). We concluded that:

Elder Black Widow takes exactly 74 damage from Aftershock. (80 AL)
Dire Black Widow takes exactly 74 damage from Aftershock. (80 AL)
Hearty Black Widow takes exactly 74 damage from Aftershock. (80 AL)

I determined that 80 AL was required to take 74 damage from the aftershock by running an Elementalist (60 AL) with Armor of Mist at +20 AL. She took 74 damage each time.

Sooooo we still have yet to disprove any of what's in this thread, just providing some further evidence. Damage tests to come.

Storm Chaser · Oct 30, 2005, 12:09 AM // 00:09

wow...with so much information about pets and updates and stuff you would think that Anet would actually try to make them effective in battle other than tanking. or maybe im just being a negative nancy.

mrxbryan · Oct 30, 2005, 12:14 AM // 00:14

do u guys think a ranger with a pet with 2nd profession elements is good? since the bow is pretty much useless? if so how should i distribute my points?

shifteleven · Oct 30, 2005, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrxbryan

do u guys think a ranger with a pet with 2nd profession elements is good? since the bow is pretty much useless? if so how should i distribute my points?

What you've said here is half wrong and half right. The bow is an extremely useful tool for a pet-reliant build, because it is often beneficial to be able to sic your pet on a target from a great distance. Also, the steady damage from having a high marksmanship score can compliment the pet damage very well. However, if you'd like to run an Elementalist secondary, you could certainly make that work. The low-cost pet elite "Ferocious Strike" would make an excellent source of both damage and energy for you, which would be essential as a R/E due to your fairly low energy cap. You'll want to avoid exhaustion, so I'd recommend the Air or Water lines for your Elementalist spells. Some quick ideas for you would be to try running a high Beastmastery/Air build with a combo of pet attacks, call of haste, and some lightning spikes. An even better idea would be to go with a 4-attribute build balanced between Expertise, Water Magic, Beast Mastery, and Marksmanship and use those lovely snare hexes, along with the aforementioned Elite pet attack...making your arrows unavoidable, your pet inescapable, and your energy quite manageable.

Not that those builds are terribly viable as I've posted them, but that should get you started in the right direction.

Align · Nov 01, 2005, 11:04 AM // 11:04

You'd only gain 7 or 8 energy with each ferocius strike though. Ele spell cost isn't reduced by Expertise, so energy gained is gone after one or two spells have been cast... unlike non-spell skills, of which you'd be able to use three or five before you've used up the energy you gained.

AlphaSt0rm · Nov 02, 2005, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Is it just me or is it not possible to cap the Elder Wolves? I approach them and they are green but by the time I get closer their name changes to "Pet - Elder Wolf" I assume the Stone Summit charms them. Is there anyway to get to them before the Stone Summit? And Black Bears are on the way to the Elder Wolves.

shifteleven · Nov 02, 2005, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Align

You'd only gain 7 or 8 energy with each ferocius strike though.

Actually, you should gain ~9 energy per Ferocious Strike (at 12 Beastmastery), and each strike should cost you 3 energy. Assuming that you use it every time it refreshes (every 8 seconds), that's 6 energy every 8 seconds, which comes to about 2.25 energy every 3 seconds....i.e. about 2 arrows of energy regen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Align

Ele spell cost isn't reduced by Expertise, so energy gained is gone after one or two spells have been cast... unlike non-spell skills, of which you'd be able to use three or five before you've used up the energy you gained.

Any secondary other than warrior is going to cause this problem. Keep in mind that Rangers and Warriors are the only two classes that heavily use "skills", "attack skills", "shouts", "preparations", and "traps", which are the only things reduced by expertise. There are some odds and ends among other classes, such as some Necro touches and the like, but honestly you're dealing with spells 99% of the time among non-ranger/warriors.

This is obviously not the *best* route to go, but he did ask for a ranger pet user / ele secondary build. If he just wanted to make a Ranger/Ele, I'd have told him to go with something like Marksman's Wager perhaps.

Align · Nov 03, 2005, 03:35 PM // 15:35

I was assuming 16 BM, net gain would be 7 or 8 depending on expertise level...
I just don't think FS is a very good idea unless you're going to be a 'rangerist'.

shifteleven · Nov 03, 2005, 05:07 PM // 17:07

I only suggested FS because as a Ranger Beastmaster who intends to use a secondary profession (he wanted to mix in Elementalist skills), his attributes would very likely be stretched thin. At best, if he focused on ONE element, he'd have to stretch his attributes between that element, expertise, beastmastery, and marksmanship (if he decided to use a bow). Since he is primarily a pet user, his beastmastery would likely the be his highest attribute, making the Elite pet attack a viable means of dealing damage and gaining energy for his build.

kawaii_bat · Nov 03, 2005, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Just yesterday I played the Riverside mission with a bunch of people.
Two of use where lvl 17 rangers, me R/N and R/Mo another.

Both of us had Boars and both where at level 16.
I though is was funny and everyone was pretty happy because we had 3 tanks with the warrior and them there.

When we got to the poisoned water section of the mission, I noticed her boar was taking damage faster than mine from the poison.

She noticed it too.
_Both me and her reset our /petnames to see if one was playful or hearty.
_Both our boars where Hearty Warthogs......Wierd.......

Not all pets have the same health it seems.
Could their health be affected by Beastmastery as well?
I didn't ask her how much points in BM she put but I had 11 and I really used my boar alot in my build.

Do any of you have any clue as to why my boar has more health than hers?

No: My boar did not have mending or any enchantments on it.
No: There where not spirits summoned that could have augmented their healths.
No: I did not use any regen ability on my pet and neither had she.

Epinephrine · Nov 04, 2005, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Level 1 Pet = 8-14
Level 2 Pet = 11-17
Level 3 Pet = 14-22
Level 5+ Pet = 17-28

The damage values listed are incorrect. I will finish with my testing then post corrected values. As an example, the damage for a lvl 14 pet is 13-21, based on 400 consecutive recorded strikes with a 0 BM pet vs. a cooperative 0 armour opponent. The distribution of values was approximately uniform, a chi-square test failed to detect any significant deviation from a uniform distribtuion. I'll do some testing on various pet levels and report them, but clearly the figures listed are incorrect. Once I have tested at most pet levels with a large pool of hits per level I'll post some more precise results.

Mercury Angel · Nov 04, 2005, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by kawaii_bat

Just yesterday I played the Riverside mission with a bunch of people.
Two of use where lvl 17 rangers, me R/N and R/Mo another.

Both of us had Boars and both where at level 16.
I though is was funny and everyone was pretty happy because we had 3 tanks with the warrior and them there.

When we got to the poisoned water section of the mission, I noticed her boar was taking damage faster than mine from the poison.

She noticed it too.
_Both me and her reset our /petnames to see if one was playful or hearty.
_Both our boars where Hearty Warthogs......Wierd.......

Not all pets have the same health it seems.
Could their health be affected by Beastmastery as well?
I didn't ask her how much points in BM she put but I had 11 and I really used my boar alot in my build.

Do any of you have any clue as to why my boar has more health than hers?

No: My boar did not have mending or any enchantments on it.
No: There where not spirits summoned that could have augmented their healths.
No: I did not use any regen ability on my pet and neither had she.

Did either of your pets die during the excursion?
Do pets even suffer from DP? o_O

It's not mentioned anywhere in this guide.

As to the damage range of pets, who knows. If they can have varying healths with no discernable differences, perhaps the same holds true for damage.

That'd be crazy, if they were like weapons in that respect. "WTS Max damage pet!" (Nevermind that you can't trade them)

Epinephrine · Nov 04, 2005, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercury Angel

As to the damage range of pets, who knows. If they can have varying healths with no discernable differences, perhaps the same holds true for damage.

Possibly, but I doubt it - pets across my accounts seem all to hit for pretty much the same damage, so I assume that there is little to no variation between similarly evolved pets. Those numbers were pasted into a post about pets ages ago, most likely copied from a source like the Prima guide, and have not been tested in the least, thus the runs of hundred of strikes I am recording. Regardless, by not only posting results bu the manner in which they are gathered it will be more obvious if errors are made in testing, and the data can be viewed in the context of the testing process.

shifteleven · Nov 05, 2005, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by kawaii_bat

Just yesterday I played the Riverside mission with a bunch of people.
Two of use where lvl 17 rangers, me R/N and R/Mo another.

Both of us had Boars and both where at level 16.
I though is was funny and everyone was pretty happy because we had 3 tanks with the warrior and them there.

When we got to the poisoned water section of the mission, I noticed her boar was taking damage faster than mine from the poison.

She noticed it too.
_Both me and her reset our /petnames to see if one was playful or hearty.
_Both our boars where Hearty Warthogs......Wierd.......

Not all pets have the same health it seems.
Could their health be affected by Beastmastery as well?
I didn't ask her how much points in BM she put but I had 11 and I really used my boar alot in my build.

Do any of you have any clue as to why my boar has more health than hers?

No: My boar did not have mending or any enchantments on it.
No: There where not spirits summoned that could have augmented their healths.
No: I did not use any regen ability on my pet and neither had she.

Several possible causes for this...

1. One of your pets was Agressive at level 11, then evolved to Hearty at level 16. This would leave them at 500 hitpoints, while the Playful > Hearty one would have the full 560 hitpoints.

2. Your pets accrued Death Penalty, yeah, pets get DP, but are always rezzed.

Hope that explains it for ya.

Penguins Will Fly · Nov 05, 2005, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by shifteleven

Several possible causes for this...

1. One of your pets was Agressive at level 11, then evolved to Hearty at level 16. This would leave them at 500 hitpoints, while the Playful > Hearty one would have the full 560 hitpoints.

2. Your pets accrued Death Penalty, yeah, pets get DP, but are always rezzed.

Hope that explains it for ya.

From the way I understand it, when a pet evolves into aggresive at 11 it cannot evolve into hearty afterwards. It can only go to either dire or elder depending on how you train it. Likewise, if it evolved into playful at first it can only evolve into hearty or elder later on.

I think the best explanation as to what happened would be one of them had more death penalty than the other. Or it could have been that the guy had just named his to hearty when it was really a dire or elder... because he liked the sound of hearty or something