Curse

Saerden · Oct 06, 2005, 09:57 AM // 09:57

I am interested in in-depht discussion on memser skills in sorrows furnance.
[Sparked from the "mesmer not wanted" thread] What skills have absolutely no place in there? How can you recognize a bad mesmer in SF? What can a good mesmer do that cant be just done better by an echo nuker?

Disclaimer: there are a couple things you need to be aware of:
1. PvE is easy. you dont need to have an optimized build, even a n/w [swords] wont just fall over and die while the mobs are rolling on the floor laughing. This is not pvp. So claims like: my r/w [swords] totally owned Thunderhead keep are valid. And irrelevant. Playerskills always play a role, as well as a small amount of luck. If your a good player, you would contribute no matter the profession
2. im not interested in discussion about "fun", thats a given, but instead about efficiency. Fun is fun, you cant prove nor convince someone what the most fun option is. but there is a best option, or at least there are worst options. A good mesmer is of course much better than a bad ele. A polite mesmer is better than an insulting monk for some people.
3. "death" is the best hex you can cast on an enemy.

So here to my first not-even-close-to finished list of skills that i dont want to see on a mesmer no matter what quest. If you manage to provide good reasons for them, feel free to do so - just keep your "mesmers rule, you just are a stupid tank" to yourself, i dont care about subtlety but about success.

dont even bother - category:

Arcane conundrum
10 energy ... nothing. Why not just kill them instead of this pointless (not-)shutdown? this is not pvp. mobs have to die fast as there are lots of them, your massproducing death.

Conjure phantasm
10 energy for ... up to 120 dmg @ 12 illusion. over 12 seconds. on a single target. next.

Illusion of weakness - you have a monk.

Soothing images - what mad adrenaline spike is it that you fear in there? why not just take aegis / wards? 15 energy for nothing.

Chaos storm
drains energy - that means longterm shutdown. But Maelstorm does something better (pathetic damage + 10s of total caster shutdown).
By the time you have drained an caster to an energy level where his spellcasting is actually hindered, he should be dead for at least 10 seconds. The damage is not spectacular enough in my opinion.

ether lord
Junk in pvp. In pve, its beyond junk. If you want to shutdown someone in pve, it has to be fast, else the mob is dead before you finished casting. By the time you run out of energy, every enemy caster should be dead. Theres a reason why people dont use it in pvp, and there you face 8 powerfull, intelligent mobs who cant just be wiped with nuking.

Ignorance
does nothing earthshaking. there are some annoying signet-uses (heal signet bosses), but you could just kill or interrupt them. just a wasted skillslot imho.

Mind Wrack
People said its useless in pvp. During the age of edenial.That should say something. Maybe its a cover hex, but what do you need to cover in pve?

Shatter delusions
Single target damage you trade for the last couple seconds of your hex. why bother, there are better options i think.

Signet of weariness
edenial in pve does not kill anyone. In pvp you face equals so waiting 10 minutes for victory is a good idea. Once mobs become equals, edenial might be a good idea in pve.

wastrel's worry
Direct single target damage. not good enough. not even close.
Arguments for its usefullness have been provided.

***
skills that look good:

Shatter hex
Good damage, also gets rid of a hex. echo that and cast on a hexed tank, and you get an armor-ignoring spike.

However, it is pretty expensive, and useless in areas without heavy hexes. Mobs need to be clustered for full effect.
Slowing hexes are annoying, because you want to get rid of them, but cant since the "charging" tank is too far away.

Backfire
Damage seems good, but many mesmers tell that the skill is lacking. At least you will do considerable damage with this on annoying offtarget casters.

echo
good and versatile - never a bad choice. Unless your other 7 skills are useless, that is. Even more usefull for secondary mesmers.

Arcane echo / mimicry
GREAT skills since exploiting one usefull skill over and over (meteor shower triple nuke) can be very usefull - can add versatility, but at a high cost. Arcane echo can replace echo if you have a good elite. Mimicry is not that great in most PUG situations, but is very nice if you want to "exploit" (use to fullest effect) good elite skills / dual elite combos. To be honest, these skills are one of the reasons why /me is great on eles and necros.

Inspired hex
good way to remove hexes from offtargets (most stuff should attack the gear-holfing tank, so no point in shattering the hex on the monk) and regain energy. Not a main feature of a build, but wont hurt if you have room

if this topic sparks any interest, i will include more skills that i think are totally pointless in SF, as well listen to valid arguments why im wrong. Note that the point of reference is always an echo nuker who could bring maelstorm. If you can do something better then the ele without falling back to superior player skills or using only moronic ele builds as an comparison, im happy to hear about it.

*edit: post is edited

Charcoal Ann · Oct 06, 2005, 10:07 AM // 10:07

not so sure about the apparent crappiness of Chaos Storm. if you come up against a Dolyak Master then it will definately take you more than 10 seconds to kill him (mark of protection). he will still be casting Orison. Choas storm would be good. if i ever saw any indication that mobs *ever* lose energy...

classic backfire, empathy skills are good. they are always good.

Ollj · Oct 06, 2005, 10:38 AM // 10:38

suggestion:

: 6+1 fast casting
: 12+2 illusion magic
Conjure Phantasm
Clumsiness
fragility
Illusion of Weakness
: 10+1 domination magic
Shatter Hex
Backfire
Chaos Storm
Blackout
Shatter Delusions
Empathy
Cry of Frustration
: 6+3 inspiration
Ether feast
Energy drain

just cut some skills to bri ng the sum down to 8 and get a good energy management, i didn't test it.

john little · Oct 06, 2005, 10:57 AM // 10:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charcoal Ann

not so sure about the apparent crappiness of Chaos Storm. if you come up against a Dolyak Master then it will definately take you more than 10 seconds to kill him (mark of protection). he will still be casting Orison. Choas storm would be good. if i ever saw any indication that mobs *ever* lose energy...

classic backfire, empathy skills are good. they are always good.

but for the cost of chaos storm you could either have a more damaging interrupt, or another skill if an elementalist brings maelstrom (which there is really no reason not to).

Numa Pompilius · Oct 06, 2005, 11:00 AM // 11:00

I've been farming (and done all quests except orozoar) with 5 henches (Thom, Devona, Cynn, Mhenlo, Lina) in Sorrows Furnace/Grenths with my Me/Mo.

Maxed out domination, inspiration 12, fast casting 8, leftover in healing prayers; superior rune of domination, major health, rest minors. Collectors wand & focus.
My "meat & potatoes" spells are shatter hex, backfire, empathy, power drain; the rest change with my mood. The only monk spell I ever use is healing breeze, for a quick self-heal when I'm being DOT'ted.

A typical fight has me targetting enemy healers and mesers first, while shattering hexes thrown on the fighters and power draining if given opportunity, then dropping empathy on the melee troops so they kill themselves, THEN I take out necros, as their hexes are valuable ammo for me (each shatter hex does 120 damage to all adjacent: necros spamming 'life transfer' are my best weapons). I always take any bosses last.

I find it pretty easy going.

Zelnox · Oct 06, 2005, 11:04 AM // 11:04

The last time I went, I was using:
Energy Surge*
Cry of Frustration
Empathy
Diversion
Spirit of Failure or Chaos Storm
Drain Enchantment
Shatter Hex
Rebirth

I used Chaos Storm before, but wanted to try out Spirit of Failure, because I needed energy. Hehe, I don't use Chaos Storm to drain energy. I could bring Arcane Echo to copy Energy Surge* instead.

My goal was to do AOE damage as a mesmer, since I was capturing skills with henchies in the Ring of Fire and Abaddon's Mouth.

Phades · Oct 06, 2005, 11:48 AM // 11:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charcoal Ann

not so sure about the apparent crappiness of Chaos Storm. if you come up against a Dolyak Master then it will definately take you more than 10 seconds to kill him (mark of protection).

Shatter and drain enchantment deal with that easily enough. Only in pve does single layer enchantment removal really make much headway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charcoal Ann

he will still be casting Orison. Choas storm would be good. if i ever saw any indication that mobs *ever* lose energy...

classic backfire, empathy skills are good. they are always good.

Ive played around with the more direct energy drain skills on pve mobs and most of them simply dont cast often enough to really make a noticable impact on spells used. However, you can drain energy out of them to zero. This is most noticable on the giant herders, where they fail to use giant stomp if you are able to drain them out before they come into range. Not exactly useful when it comes to the casters, but draining out most casters typically takes awhile anyway. This being the case you can also rule out things like ether lord, malaise, wither, and panic. Unless of course, you plan on taking their pip regen to 0 or lower and drain out their energy pool, as i doubt they focus swap items. Still, doing this is rather impractical on the skill bar, due to the inefficient means to rapidly wipe out large sums of energy due to the changes to energy tap and drain. Guilt and shame seem viable, but mark of subversion seems much better than shame for pve purposes resembling malestorm in function, but without the exhaustion.

coolsti · Oct 06, 2005, 01:09 PM // 13:09

I also have played SF a bit with my Mesmer/Mo with only henchies, and I take a different variety of skills. I usually always have rebirth so I can resurrect my henchies when we get into trouble. I always have ether feast to heal myself when needed. But otherwise I play around with different combinations.

Often I take out archane echo + chaos storm, because doubling up on chaos storm helps take out mobs attacking my Warrior henchies.

I have been using clumsiness and ineptitude (elite) often, as these are very effective against enemy warriors. I usually take one or two spell interruptors, but lately almost never take backfire. It takes too long to cast and doesn't stop the spell. Instead I use mostly Cry of frustration, power spike or power leak. Also diversion is one of my favorites. I use shatter hex on occasion. And I have had fun with the mind wrack + spirit shackles combination. Spirit shackles is very effect to drain the energy of enemy monks, etc., because they tend to attack between casting spells. And when I want a laugh, I equip arcane thievery.

So generally I have a few skills that are good against spell casters, a few that work well against fighters, and a few others. Except for chaos storm, I generally don't go out with any direct damaging skills, not even empathy (no room on the skill slot). Yet as long as I am careful not to barge into an overly large enemy mob, I find it easy with my Mesmer and a full team of henchies.

Xue Yi Liang · Oct 06, 2005, 03:14 PM // 15:14

My Me/N solos with henchies in SF - sometimes I use the following build

Signet of Midnight
Plague Touch
Epidemic
Backfire
Chaos Storm
Consume Corpse (or Soul Feast)
Shatter Hex
Energy Tap

I keep high Death and Domination, also Fast Cast at 10+, and a little to Inspiration. Wearing Rogue's armor, Korvaldi's Cane and a gold chakram (+12 energy, +5armor>50%, improved recharge 9%). The weapons sometimes change. Sometimes I'll use the Noble Armor with Mogriff's Staff.

If I solo with henchies I tank - at best I might bring Devona. I'll bring both monks and Cynn always. But this varies.

Basic idea is - I first hit backfire on their healer or mesmer then run to engage their Cleavers and Herders using Signet of Midnight and Epidemic and Chaos storm (I'm usually in the middle of the storm). If one of them removes their "blind" condition I just hit Plague Touch (+/- Epidemic) to blind them again. If Cynn is doing her job I'll also have some helpful nuking. No doubt I'll get a hex or two on me as well so I can use Shatter Hex (that's why I don't take out their mesmer first). Any conditions I get (bleed, cripple etc.) gets Plague Touched to my closest enemy.

Depending on the situation I might go after the healers first - but usually I can hit their footsoldiers hard enough to take them out quickly.

For me this seems to work better with a Me/N than with a N/Me because Fastcasting really helps you handle the Hexes and conditions effectively. I've also used this build successfully with a fastcast of 13-14 - but 10 seems to be a nice balance.

Downside:
It takes a little more time to take out healer bosses. It just takes a little longer if one or more henchies is down. (yeah - I didn't have room for a rez sig - being in the front line means I'm not usually the last one standing. And if I am, I'll just rezone).

Self-Healing is limited using Soul Feast or Consume Corpse. It's not usually a problem since your melee opponents are blind most of the time which buys you time to kill one and use their corpse. Also Lina seems to be pretty quick to toss Shield of Regen on you, which helps.
----
Another one I use with my Me/N:

Enfeeble
Virulence
Epidemic
Soul Feast (or Consume Corpse)
Inspired Hex
Energy Tap
Well of Suffering
either Chaos Storm or Backfire

I'm still tweaking this one. I'm not tanking with this one. I'll bring Devona, 2 monks and Cynn (maybe).

I hit healers/casters with Backfire and others with Enfeeble and Virulence. Epidemic may be overkill (especially considering it's 15 energy price). Enfeeble and Virulence, on the other hand, are cheap (5 energy) and fast (1 sec + fastcast bonus).

SF is full of tight corridors and thick melee packs - that's why Virulence and Epidemic are so useful. When someone in the pack goes down you can pull Well of Suffering (on top of your Virulence) for big DOT damage. Remember, it's also important to do some amount of corpse-denial as their Dark Binders like to use Well of Suffering, too.

Enfeeble+Epidemic are useful if you get blitzed by a mob. Consume Corpse pulls you out of danger.

The Downside:

Enfeeble+Virulence+Epidemic is your primary damage dealer - which is effective against packs. But you're still depending on the henchies to deliver spike damage. I'm experimenting with inserting a nice spike damage skill (maybe to replace epidemic) - something better than Energy Burn...

Energy management can get a little tricky if you're not paying attention. Self-healing is limited to Soul Feast (which requires some foresight). I wear a Sup Domination Mask - and, if I need to, I'll swap it with my Minor Domination Mask during battle for +75 health).

Epinephrine · Oct 06, 2005, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Saerden, do you play mesmers? You have some very good skills on that list of "don't bring". Granted, none are starring role skills, but I think that many are workable in builds.

Soothing Images is a fine spell for example, cutting down massively on the damage that any of the little warrior buggers is doing. IIRC Dwarves have Cleave for example, and repeatedly getting Cleaved hurts.

Chaos Storm does mild E-Denial, which can help against a healer boss especially, but also does damage that ignores the high armour values of the dwarf warrior types. If you are already invested heavily in domination for good, usable skills you may well add this to your list. I often operate at 16 Domination, and my chaos storm does decent damage. Would I be better off with a really big elementalist spell? Maybe, but I am already invested in Domination to get the backfire that kills in a few casts, right? When my mesmer is geared for anti-caster duty with domination I'll often use this as one of my multi-purpose spells, as it hurts anyone - and when a pack of warrior-types aggro our tank and there are no casters to deal with I'll use my echo on this, dealing 30 damage a second through armour, so it does help.

Shatter Delusion: Mostly used to end a Phantom Pain on a fragility spiker build. the deep wound is nice, the damage bonus is nice too.
Not so much a PvE build really, but it does work. I've used this skill before, it's not bad. That backfire that just did a bunch of damage, but is about to end can get one last kick of damage in and so on... not a great spell, but not lump-able with Ether Lord in PvE

Conjure Phantasm: Fine, you don't like it - I think it tends to get overplayed as well - but if the mesmer is invested in Illusions anyway it's not a bad spell - remember that Mantra of Persistence will extend its duration up over 20 seconds and you get pretty decent degeneration over a long time, and the fast recharge means that you can drop it on a few guys. It adds up over time, and with a big illusion score and a decent mantra of persistence you are dealing damage very efficiently for the energy expended. Would I use it as my main skill? No way, but if I had it in my build I wouldn't hesitate to drop in on folks - it can last 15 seconds at 16 Illusion, and with decent inspiration you can get that to 25, even higher. Many fights last >25 seconds, in which time you can have dropped 2-3 of these (dealing 250 damage each, for some pretty efficient damage/energy) and swung away with an IW for a while.

Theos · Oct 06, 2005, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saerden

dont even bother - category:

acane conundrum
10 energy ... nothing. Why not just kill them instead of this pointless (not-)shutdown? this is not pvp. mobs have to die fast as there are lots of them, your massproducing death.

Conjure phantasm
10 energy for ... up to 120 dmg @ 12 illusion. over 12 seconds. on a single target. next.

illusion of weakness - you have a monk.

soothing images - what mad adrenaline spike is it that you fear in there? why not just take aegis / wards? 15 energy for nothing.

chaos storm
drains energy - that means longterm shutdown. But Maelstorm does something better (pathetic damage + 10s of total caster shutdown).
By the time you have drained an caster to an energy level where his spellcasting is actually hindered, he should be dead for at least 10 seconds. The damage is not spectacular enough in my opinion.

ether lord
Junk in pvp. In pve, its beyond junk. If you want to shutdown someone in pve, it has to be fast, else the mob is dead before you finished casting. By the time you run out of energy, every enemy caster should be dead. Theres a reason why people dont use it in pvp, and there you face 8 powerfull, intelligent mobs who cant just be wiped with nuking.

ignorance
does nothing earthshaking. there are some annoying signet-uses (heal signet bosses), but you could just kill or interrupt them. just a wasted skillslot imho.

Mind Wrack
People said its useless in pvp. During the age of edenial.That should say something. Maybe its a cover hex, but what do you need to cover in pve?

shatter delusions
Single target damage you trade for the last couple seconds of your hex. why bother, there are better options i think.

signet of weariness
edenial in pve does not kill anyone. In pvp you face equals so waiting 10 minutes for victory is a good idea. Once mobs become equals, edenial might be a good idea in pve.

wastrel's worry
Direct single target damage. not good enough. not even close.

Lets start from the top and show why some of the skills that you listed do not belong here:
Arcane Conundrum: Usually useless in PvE, unless you go soloing some mega caster boss, but heck Migrane will be there :P

Illusion of Weakness: Great skill to have incase your monks go retarded on you, happens to everyone, henchies seem to stop healing at points as well. Also there are spikes that do occur... ever been hit by multiple cleavers using cleave?

Conjure Phantasm: ood skill, not great, but an excellent source of spammable degen, what more could you really ask for? 10 energy? Thats no big deal.

Soothing Images: See cleavers/knights. Sympathetic Visage is also good.

Chaos Storm: An ok skill, sometimes can be great, especially in caster rich mobs. Energy shutdown is great even in PvE. I personally do not run this though.

Ether Lord: Why is that here? One of the most underrated good skills in the game. If you are doing anything worthwhile you will be down on energy so the loss of all energy should not affect you. Not to mention that you gain about 20 energy in the time its up... and they lose 20 energy. Also... try facing large mobs not everything dies in 10 seconds. Remember fast cast = more spam = more energy comsumption.

Ignorance: <_< >_>

Mind Wrack: A good build can definatly use this to their advantage vs warriors. Not the greatest of skills, but hey its a cover hex to shatter atleast...

Shatter Delusions: If you do not see the BLARING combo of this skill... you are a mesmer in need of serious training. I personally like spiking 200 damage to a target every 5 seconds. I'd love to see an ele do that for 10 energy >_>

Signet of Weariness: Not a pve skill. Simple as that really.

Wastrel's Worry: Hum... in my opinion the best dot in PvE, especially since you can now utterly shut everything down with the new skill monitor. This is also a good combo skill... but wait combos are bad we want super uber single spells right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saerden

skills that look good:

shatter hex
good damage, also gets rid of a hex. echo that and cast on a hexed tank, and you get many enemies down fast.

backfire

damage is just too good, good enough to ignore the missing AoE

mobs will cast through backfire, so this is damage, and not shutdown. Casting that on the monk in the middle of the meteor shower while the other ele calls another one is a bad idea though. Better reserved for offtargets.

echo / arcane echo / mimicry
GREAT skills no matter what. You dont need them all the time, since sometimes your build does not work too well with 4 copies of one single spell

But all of them are great in their own ways.

inspired hex
good way to remove hexes from offtargets (most stuff should attack the gear-holfing tank, so no point in shattering the hex on the monk) and regain energy. Not a main feature of a build, but wont hurt if you have room

if this topic sparks any interest, i will include more skills that i think are totally pointless in SF, as well listen to valid arguments why im wrong. Note that the point of reference is always an echo nuker who could bring maelstorm. If you can do something better then the ele without falling back to superior player skills or using only moronic ele builds as an comparison, im happy to hear about it.

*edit: for some reason, this thread ended up in the wrong forum. i humbly request it to be moved. maybe i am indeed just a stupid tank

*edit2: ok some more skills. i managed to forget ether lord. thats a sure sign i have no clues about mesmers ...

Shatter Hex: Good skill, nothing to fantastic for a 15 energy spell that is extremly conditional. Not my favorite of skills, so many better things can be used :/ Your energy will disappear with Echo btw. Woohoo 150 damage... oh wait my ele can do that too... but its not conditional

Backfire: Blasphemy... I hate this cookie cutter skill. You know... the AI did improve somewhat and they no longer spam spells with this on. Also the skill pretty much blows major... 15 energy, 20 second recharge, 10 second duration? I think I will pass. This should be in the "I do not know anything beyond domination and want to deal ele damage to casters bin"

Echo Family Tree: Great skill? No... not really. These are mediocer copy skills, nothing all to grand about them. What do you plan on echoing thats of any actual value that does not have its own nice quick recharge? Hey echo is an elite too... if we use elites why not simply go with Mantra of Recovery? Its so much more effective than Echo.

Inspired Hex/Enchant: Why was enchant not here? Hey mark of prot... hum its mine now fool! Good skills, utilities for energy managment.

What I have gathered: You do not play mesmer, you read through cookie cutter builds and made a list. Really you left out so many good skills, you only focused on the most overused skills for the good, and used the most neglected skills for your crap list (given some on the crap list are actual crap). You should do some research first... thats not based on cookies.

Epinephrine · Oct 06, 2005, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theos

Ether Lord: Why is that here? One of the most underrated good skills in the game. If you are doing anything worthwhile you will be down on energy so the loss of all energy should not affect you. Not to mention that you gain about 20 energy in the time its up... and they lose 20 energy. Also... try facing large mobs not everything dies in 10 seconds. Remember fast cast = more spam = more energy comsumption.

...

Echo Family Tree: Great skill? No... not really. These are mediocer copy skills, nothing all to grand about them. What do you plan on echoing thats of any actual value that does not have its own nice quick recharge? Hey echo is an elite too... if we use elites why not simply go with Mantra of Recovery? Its so much more effective than Echo.

I agree with some of your points, so-so on others, but these I disagree with.

Ether Lord is horrible in PvE - it has some use in PvP, granted, but horrible in PvE. It lasts 9 seconds at 12 Inspiration, 10 seconds at 16. It grants 3 pips of regen to you and 3 pips of Degen to them. It costs 5, takes 2 seconds to activate and has a 20 second recharge. Maxed out with 16 Inspiration it thus provides 10 energy to you, at a cost of 5+all your remaining energy, netting you <=5 energy. It denies them 10 energy. Over time, since it is 22 seconds per cycle of casting, it thus provides <=5/22 energy per second, or .68 pips, and denies the opponent (singular) 1.36 pips of energy. That's ludicrously bad. Granted, now that they've nerfed everything useful for energy gain on the mesmer side it does look better, but is still isn't great.

Compare that to a utility spell like Guilt or Shame; cost is 10 to cast, steal 15 energy maxed out, for a net of 5 gain, 15 denial and counters a spell at the same time. The casting time is the same, but over a minute you'd spend less time casting. It has a slower recharge, but provides 1.4 pips of degeneration, and gets you .47 pips regen - about the same, but: It countered a spell, wasting all the energy spent on it and wasting all the caster time spent on it. It also didn't suck the rest of your energy with it.

Even the now gimped Life Tap is a better energy engine - it gets a net of 9/33 for .81 pips regen, and does a lousy .64 pips of denial, but doesn't cost you all remaining energy - so you can actually use it when you aren't scraping the bottom of the figurative barrel.

As for Echo tree: Arcane mimcry is pretty weak, with a few exceptions - spells with already long recharge times are barely affected by the long recharge on mimicry, so it can be useful that way. Arcane Echo is expensive for nearly any use, but slightly useable I guess. Echo on the other hand is great. Echo allows you to carry a bit less of anything and adapt to the situation - when sorely pressed I've echoed my Ether Feast; when generating energy as a prot monk I've echoed my blessed signet - that's a lot of energy - if there are tons of hexing opponents in this pack echo the shatter hex, if not you might echo empathy, or your cry of frustration. There is nothing like echo for flexibility.

Theos · Oct 06, 2005, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

I agree with some of your points, so-so on others, but these I disagree with.

Ether Lord is horrible in PvE - it has some use in PvP, granted, but horrible in PvE. It lasts 9 seconds at 12 Inspiration, 10 seconds at 16. It grants 3 pips of regen to you and 3 pips of Degen to them. It costs 5, takes 2 seconds to activate and has a 20 second recharge. Maxed out with 16 Inspiration it thus provides 10 energy to you, at a cost of 5+all your remaining energy, netting you <=5 energy. It denies them 10 energy. Over time, since it is 22 seconds per cycle of casting, it thus provides <=5/22 energy per second, or .68 pips, and denies the opponent (singular) 1.36 pips of energy. That's ludicrously bad. Granted, now that they've nerfed everything useful for energy gain on the mesmer side it does look better, but is still isn't great.

Compare that to a utility spell like Guilt or Shame; cost is 10 to cast, steal 15 energy maxed out, for a net of 5 gain, 15 denial and counters a spell at the same time. The casting time is the same, but over a minute you'd spend less time casting. It has a slower recharge, but provides 1.4 pips of degeneration, and gets you .47 pips regen - about the same, but: It countered a spell, wasting all the energy spent on it and wasting all the caster time spent on it. It also didn't suck the rest of your energy with it.

Even the now gimped Life Tap is a better energy engine - it gets a net of 9/33 for .81 pips regen, and does a lousy .64 pips of denial, but doesn't cost you all remaining energy - so you can actually use it when you aren't scraping the bottom of the figurative barrel.

As for Echo tree: Arcane mimcry is pretty weak, with a few exceptions - spells with already long recharge times are barely affected by the long recharge on mimicry, so it can be useful that way. Arcane Echo is expensive for nearly any use, but slightly useable I guess. Echo on the other hand is great. Echo allows you to carry a bit less of anything and adapt to the situation - when sorely pressed I've echoed my Ether Feast; when generating energy as a prot monk I've echoed my blessed signet - that's a lot of energy - if there are tons of hexing opponents in this pack echo the shatter hex, if not you might echo empathy, or your cry of frustration. There is nothing like echo for flexibility.

All valid points, very valid

For ether lord, the reason I personally like it is because the way I structure my builds, very often I find my self at 5 or so energy in near to no time during a battle, so why not use ether lord to deny energy, perhaps I may be extremly stupid in my choice but it has never failed me for a good energy boost in a fix. Granted it is by statistic inferior to even the gimped Etap, I just don't like etaps long cast even with fast cast. Ether Lord is near instant cast making it harder to interupt and again a good fix in a tight spot. I am glad to hear more about this argument though. Ether lord is not my favorite engine, but one of my prefered non elite engines (I prefer mantra of recall above all else).

As for guilt/shame, good spells and good argument, I can see how those can be better. Can't really say anything about them

Other than conditional but thats not much of an argument

As for echo, I agree it is versatile but I also see Mantra of Recovery, which is a stance and therefore instant cast, to be just as versatile if not more so. Echo is limited to one skill for 20 seconds, then 30 seconds of recharge, mantra is (granted 10 more energy than echo) 15 seconds of all skills coming back faster and allowing for alot of good things to occur. Versatile yes, but I do not see them as great skills... especially, as you stated, the non elite versions.

Good to have a nice discussion everyonce in a while.

Sister Rosette · Oct 06, 2005, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Maxed out Blood magic
10 Illusion
7 Fast casting

Conjure Phantasam
Life Siphon
Offering of Blood
Vampiric Gaze
Shadow Strike
Illusion of Weakness
Demonic Flesh
Blood Renewal

Saerden · Oct 07, 2005, 08:17 AM // 08:17

Ok i think i need to clarify a few points:

1. I am not looking for builds. Especially ones that are less efficient then the standard e/me. What i am looking for is to find out wether a mesmer has a place in a theorycrafted SF team, especially a PUG. You are free to post builds, but they should be better at killing stuff or helping to kill stuff.

2. I am not looking for creativity. Why i may want to try out a triple surge spike with 3 mesmers (for a total of 9 surges hitting for 96 dmg each

), or a dual/quickshot/savage on someone who is MOP/barbed with 5 rangers (alternative: barrage with OOP/OOV spamming necros who echod MOP on everyone in the mob) - i still am interested in the most straightforward way to play the game.

3. This was intended as an SF-only thread. It either should be moved, or we should focus on high level PvE content (UW,FoW,SF,Thunderhead keep).
I think its fair to not use the best warrior skill in the game: "I Will ruxXxor j00 with this Master Gear of D00m" as a fair comparision, else mesmers are useless most of the time anyway.

4. Note that there are 3 categories
- easy (can be done with mind switched of. like griffon farming of old)
- effective (mechanically the best option)
- fun (looks cool)

A complicated combo that does 0.5 more dps then what an ele could do while doing his taxes is nothing i would take into FoW

5. when discussing a skill, remember that there is that e/me just waiting to take your spot on the team. do you really want to take something he can do better...?

6. Since there are lots of mobs, and (almost) no raid-type content, you need to focus on mass-producing death. Shutting down one mob only helps if it increases kills/h (due to lower deaths/h for example).

7. The list is ment for discussion, if this reaches a stage where it will be usefull to others, it will include every mesmer skill in the game with recommendations on SF gameplay as well as conflicting opinions.

I will comment on the points brought up later when i have some more time.

Numa Pompilius · Oct 07, 2005, 09:40 AM // 09:40

It's interesting to see the difference in opinion between the inspiration mesmers (Theo, notably) and the domination mesmers (e.g. me).
I'd never bring most of the skills Theo recommends, like Wastrels Worry, because although it does decent damage and is spammable, if the target uses ANY skill in three seconds it simply ends without doing any damage. IME that happens more often than not.

On the other hand shatter hex & backfire & empathy are my main damage dealers. I can safely assume that a healer i've put backfire on is out of the game, and I often echo shatter hex for 2 x 124 points AoE, and any melee enemy who gets empathy on them will lose at least half health before it wears off.
With the new interface interrupts are quite useful too. I think I get most of my in-battle energy from interrupts now. Again, those dwarven necros with their life transfer spamming & looong and easily interrupted animate bone minion casts are my best weapons.

Chaos storm isn't useless, it does quite a lot of damage to bunched-up enemies but it's not a major damage dealer unless you echo it. It's a nice "softening up" spell though, and I sometimes bring it.

Mesmers can't compete with echo nukers for damage (2 x meteor shower @ 15 fire does INSANE amounts of damage & adds knockdown), but my experience is that my mesmer takes down enemies quicker in PvE than my axe warrior. She just can't tank worth a damn.

thisissayantan · Oct 07, 2005, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Shatter Hex
Power Block (shutting down monk bosses)/Energy Surge
Cry of Frustration
Backfire
Energy Burn
Power Leak
Rebirth

thisissayantan · Oct 07, 2005, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Mesmers can't compete with echo nukers for damage (2 x meteor shower @ 15 fire does INSANE amounts of damage & adds knockdown), but my experience is that my mesmer takes down enemies quicker in PvE than my axe warrior. She just can't tank worth a damn.

Try Echo shatter hex at 16 Dom magic (125*2 = 250 dmg) followed by energy burn. Also, this is armor penetrating. Has a smaller cooldown time compared to meteor shower.

Fyre Brand · Oct 07, 2005, 06:16 PM // 18:16

This is a really interesting discussion to read. I play a ranger primary and use my mesmer secondary to complement what I've got going on. I hunt mostly Grenths and SF.

In Grenths I use mantra of cold (compared to other ranger stances it lasts forever). My bows +% damage rely on stances so this works well even at an attribute level of 0-3.

Depending on the othere ranger skills I'm taking and my approach. I usually take empathy, backfire, cry of frustration, shatter hex, chaos storm, power leak/spike/or energy burn.

I have tried fragility builds that are really popular with other rangers, but they require an insane effort for the return and I didn't have much fun with them, or find them as efficient.

I have found laying on bleeding (with melandru's arrows), or poison, combo'd with interupts and energy denial I can take down the priest/mesmer/gnasher groups quicker. The rangers and axe warriors aren't much trouble after that.

I just wanted to say there are some really good ideas and skill philosphies here I am trying out. Thanks to all.

Epinephrine · Oct 07, 2005, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theos

... I agree it is versatile but I also see Mantra of Recovery, which is a stance and therefore instant cast, to be just as versatile if not more so. Echo is limited to one skill for 20 seconds, then 30 seconds of recharge, mantra is (granted 10 more energy than echo) 15 seconds of all skills coming back faster and allowing for alot of good things to occur. Versatile yes, but I do not see them as great skills... especially, as you stated, the non elite versions.

Good to have a nice discussion everyonce in a while.

I see few people using Mantra of Recovery, which is unfortunate - it is one of the best elites out there for what it does. The 15 energy cost is large, but if you are using energy recovery spells they recharge twice as fast during its duration, so you tend to make the energy up for the most part (harder now that they don't work as well however). I tend to favour the more energy-neutral spells* Shame and Guilt, as you will be using one or the other, or both in most battles, and the effect on those is nice - after all, they're a little infrequent without it, and in fact they help pay for the Mantra while you are at it. I think you are spot on in saying it's a great skill - the big difference between it and Echo is that Echo will work on a skill, while this only affects spells. I sometimes use signets in my builds, or stances, or skills, and Echo can function as any of those, which is a degree of flexibility that none of the others mentioned has.

Yup, good talking with you

* I refer to them as energy-neutral, but they can be modestenergy recovery as well, it depends of course on the Domination investment. These are some of the only spells I'd consider using at low levels of domination to good effect. You can pick up a 7+1 domination and these spells are basically free, covering their own costs if activated. A much overlooked pair of skills.