Curse

The Acolyte · Nov 28, 2005, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Just curious for forum feedback. I've had a LOT of success with the standard 5 man setup of E, N, heal Mo, prot Mo, and Stance tank. I'm usually the ele, but I also have a Mo (both roles) and stance tank. Anyway, I was playing my ele this weekend, which uses echo with orb and a glyph. When I form a party, I always call for a Minion Master (cause they kick ---) but always as that they bring BiP to serve as battery.

Why? Because if they keep the nuker full with energy for as long as possible, between the minions and the nuker nuking mobs drop QUICK. Mostly because orb hits for about 120 a pop, and you can cast them quickly with the collector artificat from Droks and The Brimstone wand. Combine chain lightening in the right places, and bring Mael (when monk bosses are boxed in) and you can do an FA run from beginning to end in 20 minutes max. Im sure there are some out there that might be able to beat this, but based on my experience joining other groups I think this is at least quicker than the average (....no, not including guildies who should easily be able to do this run in 20 minutes lol)

Anyway I digress; so business as usual this weekend with a necro in the group, myself calling for BiP when energy dropped, and we are crusining through. About 1/3 of the way the necro begins to bitch that he should only be a minion master, and that it is demeaning for him to use BiP so much. I was thinking, WTF! But then it dawned on me that other people may feel the same way. So I backed off of asking for BiP and it took us about 45 minutes to cruise through the mission...which SUCKS from an efficiency standpoint (more bosses killed in an hour equals more greens collected in an hour).

SOOOOO....just curious about any Necro thoughts on this guy, and whether I need to change my tactics. Yes, I'm relying on the necro heavily in this case, but thought that's what teamwork was for. Kinda like the tank relying on the monks to stay alive...

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts. Oh, and if you're a necro and you're not offended by being a MM and supporting with BiP, PLEASE look me up in-game. I would love to group with ya!

Acolyte Devathi (E20)
Lord Umvell (W20)
Saint Vyway (Mo20)

Carinae · Nov 28, 2005, 09:27 PM // 21:27

I currently run as a N/Mo MM and I wouldn't be offended if the party asked me to BiP. But I wouldn't do it either for two reasons:

1) Minioning is A LOT OF WORK and it would be very distracting to BiP while minioning IMHO.

2) Minioning takes A LOT OF ENERGY and I'd rather carry OoB (for me) than BiP (for everyone else)

A good dedicated MM should be the central character of the party with everyone else supporting him/her. I can easily reach 150+ dps and defend everyone else at the same time.

Seriously, it's the Ele that is now replaceable. This weekend, I did 3 perfect Oro runs with no ele at all! Any interrupting character will do (Ranger, Messmer, Shivers Necro) or... skip interrupts and do mega-damage with TWO NECROS. One doing Spiteful and one doing Minions.

The Acolyte · Nov 28, 2005, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Wow...so the necro can do more damage over time than the Ele (over 500 damage in 10 secs)???? I haven't seen that from the Necro's I've grouped with who were fully dedicated to MM, but that might just be the Necro's I've grouped with. I guess if you have an interupter that can interupt consistently, ANYONE is effective when farming SF. Thanks Carinae!

Acolyte Devathi

Yellow_lid · Nov 28, 2005, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Acolyte

Wow...so the necro can do more damage over time than the Ele (over 500 damage in 10 secs)???? Acolyte Devathi

It kinda depends, 2 necros can do over 500 DPS EASILY!!! (curse+MM). Even myself I've given off (at one point) 1,000+Dmg in 10sec (Yes I know I said thousand). It's from death nova though and I'm not sure you'd like to count that, the #1 best way to take down monk boss, 10+bone minions with Nova, then EAT them all at the same time

. MM is ALOT of work and it takes alot more focus than most other builds I've played.

Back to topic, when my MM plays I have a high enough Soul Reaping to not need OoB, I don't equip BIP either (unless asked), I'd probrably take something that does instant damage, or just something that wastes time while I'm waiting for corpses, like Swarm that way I'm not COMPLETELY useless when my minions are gone. But I knida agree with you, BIP should be standard equipment for a MM farming SF.

Hailfall · Nov 29, 2005, 12:29 AM // 00:29

I am an Necro Minion Master and I always carry BiP with me just to help out the Ele if it is needed.

I got my Soul Reaping up really high so I hardly need the energy and can spare it after the battle or during the battle and I can spare the energy as well.

Carinae · Nov 29, 2005, 01:19 AM // 01:19

I would have to say that THE SF farming build right now is to run double necros (MM+SS)

The damage is INSANE. Easily the best build right now! (PvE FotM)

1 Prot Monk
1 Heal Monk
1 Stance Tank
1 Minion Master Necro (dedicated)
1 Spiteful/Echo/Curses Necro

The Acolyte · Nov 29, 2005, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Thanks all for the comments. It's nice to know that it pretty much was just one guy that was kind of off point, but it obviously depends on the character. I agree that necro's seem to be the class of choice right now (please note all fads come to an end though

) My guess is this though, and I'm sorry if this iritates you; Anet will eventually balance this.

Kalt · Nov 29, 2005, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Yeah, they asked me several times too, to bring stuff like blood ritual, BiP and well of power.

The players seem to forget (or even know) that I need a lot of energy and I need all my attribution skills on Death magic, Healing prayers and soul reaper, so there is nothing left for blood magic unless you decrease some points from heal prayer or soul reaper, which makes your character less effective. Also I have to bust my ass off if I have to cast BiP on the monks and eles while making minions and to heal them.

Make up your mind ffs. Either take a Minion master or a battery necro.

CHunterX · Nov 29, 2005, 02:53 PM // 14:53

I haven't had an Elementalist in a successful run for a while (zomg watch me cast 3 firestormz!).A Ranger with concussion shot takes down Monks pretty fast, if they actually use it. You talk about the Warrior relying on the Monks for the protection, but you wouldnt expect them to cast a damage dealing spell, would you? You wouldn't expect an Elementalist to nuke and tank. Its pretty unfair to expect a Necro to raise and support minions and keep YOUR energy full.

The Acolyte · Nov 29, 2005, 03:23 PM // 15:23

interesting...i appreciate your comments. I linked up with some friends yesterday who have necros, and were able to strike a fantastic balance between MM as primary with a back up BiP when energy started running low. I don't ask for energy refil all the way, just enough to keep up sustained firepower. Anyway, they reassured me that most good necro's understand balancing personal needs with team needs, and that BiP isn't that big of a deal.

However, as I stated in my previous post, and based on the last two responses, it obviously differs from person to person. Some see the benefits in doing both, some don't.

As for the reply on ele tanking and monk doing damage, bad analogy. If there is one monk left you expect to be healed or protected, right?? And an ele is expected to both have firepower and still be able to support via disruption, right (takes 3 skills to do this effectively) My monk always has skills in three areas, and so does my ele. My necro friends have no problems balancing themselves across 3 skills either. And we do great with 4 man teams (though not as fast as 5 man teams).

And as for not being succesful with an ele in a while, ping me in game and we can go farm sf together. I gaurantee that between you and my friends we can clear it easily.

Send a whisper in-game =)

CHunterX · Nov 29, 2005, 03:30 PM // 15:30

It's not a bad analogy. A Monk CAN cast damage dealing spells (smite, anyone?), and an Elementalist CAN tank (earth, anyone?). Telling a Minion Master Necro to bring BiP is like telling a Fire Elementalist to bring Kenetic Armor, or a Monk to bring Balth Aura. Its not as unreasonable to ask for BiP, but BiP's attribute has nothing to do with Minions. Last time I used my MM I only had any points into blood to use OoB, no direct Minion support spells involve the Blood attribute (not that I know of). It could easily force an MM to play a build he's not familiar with, and force him/her to drop attributes which could have helped them support their minions more.

Damon Windwalker · Nov 29, 2005, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

I currently run as a N/Mo MM and I wouldn't be offended if the party asked me to BiP. But I wouldn't do it either for two reasons:

1) Minioning is A LOT OF WORK and it would be very distracting to BiP while minioning IMHO.

2) Minioning takes A LOT OF ENERGY and I'd rather carry OoB (for me) than BiP (for everyone else)

These things are very true. It's quite busy (and takes a lot of energy) when trying to keep 20+ minions alive (even when everyone is standing around BSing). Agreed - OoB is a much better use of my slot and my energy. And yes - the ele is now replacable - if you can't manage your own energy, you need to figure out how. No offense - but that's the way it is. If you need a battery - bring along an extra necro to be your battery.

In all honesty - I haven't been with a *good* group in a while that needed me to bring BiP. It's gotten to the boint that if they insist that I need to bring it, I can pretty much guarantee before we even leave that we will fail.

The Acolyte · Nov 29, 2005, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker

In all honesty - I haven't been with a *good* group in a while that needed me to bring BiP. It's gotten to the boint that if they insist that I need to bring it, I can pretty much guarantee before we even leave that we will fail.

I can manage effectively, that's not the point of the strategy we use. It's how effecient can you make a run (how many runs can you do an hour). We typically do 3-4 in a 5 man team. So, "good" is a relative term here. I'd be happy to group with you as well, with or without BiP.

It's just as easy for me to stay alive with it, but that's not the strategy. Again, it's how effecient can we be...not just how effective.

The Acolyte · Nov 29, 2005, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHunterX

It's not a bad analogy. A Monk CAN cast damage dealing spells (smite, anyone?), and an Elementalist CAN tank (earth, anyone?). Telling a Minion Master Necro to bring BiP is like telling a Fire Elementalist to bring Kenetic Armor, or a Monk to bring Balth Aura. Its not as unreasonable to ask for BiP, but BiP's attribute has nothing to do with Minions. Last time I used my MM I only had any points into blood to use OoB, no direct Minion support spells involve the Blood attribute (not that I know of). It could easily force an MM to play a build he's not familiar with, and force him/her to drop attributes which could have helped them support their minions more.

It's not a question of whether char's CAN do those things, it's what are those characters primarily relied on as unique traits. Ele's are known for being primarily nukers and supporters; warriors are typically tankers and runners; monks are typically prot and heal; rangers can trap and poison/interupt; Mes can interupt and cause frighteningly devasting counter-casting; necro's are typically damage dealers and batteries. Necros can tank too...I've seen some great necros solo via a n/w build! But I'm not asking a necro to tank, I'm asking for team support via one skill. As I keep saying, I understand that YOU dont' see the benefits behind this. I understand that YOU see that extra slot as beneficial to YOUR minions. However, most char's bring skills that are to support other team members to be more effective. For some reason, you're saying the only way you can contribute to make the group more effective is by keeping YOUR minions alive so YOU can do max damage.

The question is, is that REALLY the most effective AND effecient way to do things. I'm all ears, and I tried the 2 necro setup (very effective one run, not so much the second). I don't think it's necessarily the "best" setup.

Damon Windwalker · Nov 29, 2005, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Acolyte

For some reason, you're saying the only way you can contribute to make the group more effective is by keeping YOUR minions alive so YOU can do max damage.

I think what he's saying is that *most of the time* (certainly there are exceptions) eles are used to playing with fire - and therefore used to their storms - and since the AoE nerf, that's become nearly useless. So where the Ele in that 5 man set-up used to be the primary damage-dealer, that role has now typically fallen to the MM. So asking a MM to change their skills is like asking a tank to be a healer instead. Sure, he can still tank - but nowhere near as well, and if he's not familiar with that set-up, he'll probably fall and take the party down with him...

Bear in mind - that most of us can only talk from the experiences we've had. You may have the uber ele - we're not debating that - but of late, since the nerf, we've seen that most eles are now of reduced effectiveness....

Also bear in mind most of us are talking about running with random PuGs where we don't know how well the other players will play - not making the same runs over and over with the same people, trying to make the bast and "most efficient" overall group....

Make sense?

The Acolyte · Nov 29, 2005, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker

I think what he's saying is that *most of the time* (certainly there are exceptions) eles are used to playing with fire - and therefore used to their storms - and since the AoE nerf, that's become nearly useless. So where the Ele in that 5 man set-up used to be the primary damage-dealer, that role has now typically fallen to the MM. So asking a MM to change their skills is like asking a tank to be a healer instead. Sure, he can still tank - but nowhere near as well, and if he's not familiar with that set-up, he'll probably fall and take the party down with him...

Bear in mind - that most of us can only talk from the experiences we've had. You may have the uber ele - we're not debating that - but of late, since the nerf, we've seen that most eles are now of reduced effectiveness....

Also bear in mind most of us are talking about running with random PuGs where we don't know how well the other players will play - not making the same runs over and over with the same people, trying to make the bast and "most efficient" overall group....

Make sense?

Yeah, it definitely does. I also agree with the fire ele comment. It's a shame that more ele's haven't learned to adapt their strategy based on the AoE update. I posted in another thread that the days of the AoE are gone...they have their uses, but I always thought it was lame that AoE's would make up the majority of skill slots. This (up to the AoE update) was the first MMORPG I had played where AoE's were used like this. In fact, this is the first MMORPG I've played where area damage spells wouldn't effect both friendly and non-friendly players now that I think about it...

Anyway, I'm sure I don't have the most "uber" out there...I'm amazed at what people come up with. However, if I am the rare case of having an effective/efficient Ele then I am really dissapointed in those people playing Ele's right now...

Thanks for the feedback Damon =)

Nessaja · Nov 29, 2005, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Acolyte

Wow...so the necro can do more damage over time than the Ele (over 500 damage in 10 secs)

Yes necros can do a lot more then that. 20+ minions @ ~20 damage each (sometimes more sometimes less) is 400 damage... in 2 seconds (or does it rechange at 1.33?). Now this depends on the situation and enemy, but when a MM DOES get going, not even a spike from an elementalist has higher dps. Heck, even against heavy armored units @ 10-15 damage you still do 200-300 damage in 2 seconds making that times 5.

Especially in front of and in sorrows furnace you can get these numbers up. I'm talking from personal experience, naturally, you have necros that only use them for bombing, but you have to compare the best to the best. When I get going my team doesnt need to do anything anymore, the only area where the necro loses effectiveness in FoW is with the ice golems.

Either way, you will cast that 500 damage even when you aren't bipped, stop relying on it and work on your energy management. 2x 500 damage in 10 seconds still is more then just one time 500 damage in 10 seconds.

The best elite for a necromancer is OoB, for the ice golems area it's advisable to carry Blood Ritual around, but by no means a requirement.

Nessaja

The Acolyte · Nov 29, 2005, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nessaja

Yes necros can do a lot more then that. 20+ minions @ ~20 damage each (sometimes more sometimes less) is 400 damage... in 2 seconds (or does it rechange at 1.33?). Now this depends on the situation and enemy, but when a MM DOES get going, not even a spike from an elementalist has higher dps. Heck, even against heavy armored units @ 10-15 damage you still do 200-300 damage in 2 seconds making that times 5.

Especially in front of and in sorrows furnace you can get these numbers up. I'm talking from personal experience, naturally, you have necros that only use them for bombing, but you have to compare the best to the best. When I get going my team doesnt need to do anything anymore, the only area where the necro loses effectiveness in FoW is with the ice golems.

Either way, you will cast that 500 damage even when you aren't bipped, stop relying on it and work on your energy management. 2x 500 damage in 10 seconds still is more then just one time 500 damage in 10 seconds.

The best elite for a necromancer is OoB, for the ice golems area it's advisable to carry Blood Ritual around, but by no means a requirement.

Nessaja

Nice...ty for the info! That's essentially back to echo (double) AoE type damage LMFAO. I'd make a necro now except for the fact I want to save the spot for one of the newer char's. Hmmm...maybe I should buy two GWs...

Anyway, thanks for the info.

Aurorae · Nov 29, 2005, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Being a minion master requires a lot of energy, effort and patience, as it has been said previously in this thread. But the hybrids (those who are a mixture between blood and death) tend to be unable to keep their minions alive for as long as a pure Death necro.

Nukers who farm with minion masters in their group shouldn't need the energy boost of a battery necromancer. The minions take care of some of the damage dealing that nukers usually have to do, which in itself makes it a lot easier for the latter to kill things.

I manage to get up 20+ minions and keep them all alive, save for a few energy sacrifices now and then. Thus, nukers usually finish off what my minions started.

Nukers were always replacable. People just didn't realize it until they nerfed AoE.