Curse

Xpl0iter · Dec 25, 2005, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Hello every one,
i happen to be a new member of this site, and i intend to accept all flames and ideas in this thread of mine. Forgive me, cause my english is not very clear, happens to be my second language, so apologies in advance.

I am going to ask about an issue which was probably flamed by possibly every single elemental i know in existance. The issue was "Nerfing of AOE".

Sorrows is one of the places where i have farmed since i have been asended. had no issues with the farming, but... since ANET came up with the AOE nerfing, eles have been looked down by every other profession, Specially Necros.

For us eles, Nuking was probably the most used type which every player used in PVE, since it was meant to do what was written in the handbook which came with the Game CD. It was meant for Destruction. We eles have been balanced with exhaustion and huge manage consumption spells against powerful damaging results. Being honest, it *Was* balanced.

People call Nuker skills Broken, (which in their opinion, got fixed by the nerf) like Metor storm, firestorm, etc. the skills are scattering every single foe i see arround. metor storm works to some extent.

Nowadays, eles are totaly out of demand. every one looks down upon us, tells us clearly that we are of lower class who are worth a penny in farming. We scatter enemies which a Wonderful necro has been killing by an SS (Spiteful Spirit) and SV (Sympathetic Visage). It is clearly understood by every player in the game that eles have been nerfed (at times, i did prove that eles still work in 4 man farming with no necros evem after being nerfed but that requires way more expereince which most eles don't even have). We eles can't take down a MONK boss on our own unless team cooperates, while a necro does it in an instant. Either too many minnions making it a quick kill, or huge number of gathered foes getting messed by an SS and SV combo.

Their skills are by far more powerful, effective (and considered non broken while being overpowered in my honest opinion due to the fact that number of foes gathered, doing mele or casting attacks trigger SS, which gives every adjacent foe a damage of 29 max. Now, a dmg of 29 sure seems very small, but when the number of mob is over 15, and every one gets a dmg of 29 each time its triggered makes it quite effective, and yes, overpowered cause it is like an AOE skill, which effects every one in certain area ( in this case, adjacent foes ) and yet doesn't scatter any foe.

MetorShower, Eles nuker's most important nuking skill, first takes a 3 sec casting time, 60 seconds of recharge, and hits foes in AREA of effect 3 times only within 9 seconds. Sure it knocks them down, but why would any other profession care? It sure does quite a nice scatter. (IMHO, it works, doesn't scatter, but 98% people i see for farming, consider MS a Scattering Skill)

I will not make this post any bigger than it already is, and yeh, i feel turned down by Guildwars, for the fact that elementals are always my favorite. Being treated like the way we are is just not fair to us eles.

My farming time has sharply declined. i know this issue has been flamed before, by other professions of courses, specially rangers and necros.. BUT.. isin't unfair for eles when their entire fire set is turned down by all parties?

Don't tell me to try other elements, i have tried it, and been turned down.

Regardz to all
An Elementalist.

Asprah · Dec 25, 2005, 11:06 AM // 11:06

Actually air is quite usefull in Pve imho.
I just wanted to say,that mesmers are underused too in pve. I mean 9 of 10 teams will not take you for farming,they will rather take extra W/Mo with fiery dragon noob sword and eternal shield with mending. Ppl dont realise that good mesmer with degen build or interuper can be much more usefull then dmg dealing character. They realise power of mesmers once they start some tombing (if ever)
GG.

Stormlord Alex · Dec 25, 2005, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Dude, don't go knocking on us whammo's... 4 w3 h4v3 73h F13RY DR4G0N 5W0RD 0V UB4 pWN4G3 cuz W3 R, L13K 1337 lolzorz !!!!one one! shift + eleven!!! (btw, I have a whammo... and I hate all the prejudice against W/Mo, especially later on. I don't aggro, I carry Succor instead of Mending, and Spathas >>>>>> Dragon Swords...)

On topic... Fire isn't useless now, just switch out Meteor Shower and Firestorm etc. for Rodgort's Invocation and Incendiary Bonds... still works fine.
All Ele's have to do now is, you know, THINK (oh, the horror!), rather than just Echo- Shower - Shower ZOMG PWND! Besides, you get to BURNINATE THE COUNTRYSIDE.
And Necro's probably are a tad over-powered, but it's ok because they look cool and they dance cool and they are s3xy.

Xpl0iter · Dec 25, 2005, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Hello,
i won't deny what Asprah said above. Mesmers are underused, and after being nerfed, i did a 4 man run in SF with 1 war, 1 monk, 1 Mesmer and Elemental ( my self ) which went quite well. I do carry incendiary and invocation with Metorshower in my build still. My build was when i joined Guildwars, was mine, not a build from site, and even after beign nerfed, it was mine not from a site ( and i never saw a build post nerf any way )

Echo shower is part of a regular strategy, and mind you, i use it wisely, not on a full mob, but where i need it to be at times i want. i can ignore a mob and hit one priest than killing the mob first which is doing nothing compared to the priest himself.

Ele build was made by someone, who did put his mind into that build before he/she came up with the idea of Echoing MS.
My question NOW to every one is this, Who is putting their minds in making a Necro build? Creating minnions and healing them is all i see at most times? Don't you as well? Echosing SS with SV by a Necro is as similar to any ele echoing an MS.
SS is definetly an overpowered skill which is used by most noobs at this very point who see a necro being used by every farming team, regardless of how idiots they are.
It is like this, Any person who loves a MEELE game, when joins GUildwars, 90% of the times takes a Warrior and not ranger, who can still pack quite a damage from range. Any new person who loves casting goes for Elemental by default, hence i saw 90% of the new guys doing several silly mistakes, and not knowing what they are doing at first place.
We eles encounter continious critisism which is far worst than the nerfing of AOE it self. We are degraded by Monks and Necros.
Like i said before, an ELE was suppose to pack a damage, rather than a necro who is doing it with his overpowered SS, ( mind you, most don't even know what SS is like while they are using it, and which other skills interupt it )
the farming areas are flooded with necros. every one wants them, and ele either has to make his own group, and yet encounter hate while a necro is being requested to join a team.
Air build wont work in SF, i have tried it before. it does pack quite a damage to *one* person, and not the group WHICH makes it less in demands.
People who worked with my fire ele to farm, loved my build, never had issues with them, but yet I had to WORK with them to prove that IT works, unlike the Nerfing concept which is set in their mind, saying "Eles are Nerfed and Useless in Any farming" 80% of the necros i meet now, have no sense of idea of what their skills are doing, and the rest of the 20% have such a high ego that they literally let us know that " We look down upon you since we do more damage than any of you eles out there with our elite SS "

I can take down a monk boss definetly, but for that, i need assistance from my team, while a noob necro (knowing not his skills) can create 10 minnions, and hit the crap out of the monk boss, OR an SS person with Spinal Shivers doing continious interupt while killing the monk instantly.

Necros are wanted in Underworld Major farming, and Necros are wanted in Sorrows Furnace Farming. Eles, neither of the 2. We do have SV as well since we are ELE/MES, but rest of the damaging skills do nothing compared to SS of a necro which ignores armour, since it is not a physical hit or projectile encountering any armour in way.

Yes, fire isn't as useless as it seems, but quite useless since it gets you no attention, no team. I can't work with every single of them out there to prove that fire still works even after being nerfed?

If any necro and monk out their would like to prove the facts that i have presented above, i will gladly bring examples from the game itself to prove them wrong. You can shatter any regular ele's ego, but it will take hell lot to do mine.
I know my build far well than most.

Regardz
An Elementalist

striderkaaru · Dec 27, 2005, 03:19 PM // 15:19

@xploiter
before the update, how often did you use an elem build that did not involve fire magic and echo/arcane echo?

basically, before the update, 98% of elems in the pve game were "echo fire nukers." the reason for the "aoe nerf" was more of a balance between elems rather than between other classes. the purpose was to get people to start looking into the other elements. however, since 80% of the gw population doesn't like to think, they gave up on elems instead and started looking for other options. that's why there's a new craze for necros.

you shouldn't complain that elems are in less demand now. there was a time when all people wanted were tanks, monks, and nukers. necros are happy now that they are finally getting attention. maybe one day, mesmers and rangers will get the same kind of attention.

Burakus Lightwing · Dec 27, 2005, 03:55 PM // 15:55

I will say quickly that I'm sure 98% of ele's use(used) fire because...the game is set up that way. Unfortunately all of your skills from the outset of the game are fire. That needs to be changed, A warrior will get axe,sword and hammer skills in pre-sear but my ele won't get usefull elements, aside from fire, until much later in the game. I hate the nerf. I never used my ele to farm I like just PvE'ing, quests and missions with him but the AoE IMHO has truly weakend this class.
Also, why do some ele spells take forever to cast? Rangers can interupt these in a heartbeat and our poor ele's can do nothing against that +30 vs. ele dmg armor....ridiculous!
I have played Neverwinter myself and actually just from reading books I've always liked mages so it was a no brainer to pick an ele and play around with it. I still loving playing an ele and there's a wide variety of spells but to trully take advantage of them you really need to pump your attrib into 1 line and go with it. I think that after the nerf Anet should have given us ele's more direct damage spells...why not Fire Armor..your attacker suffers from x amount of fire damage everytime you are hit while it's up?
Now as far as ele vs. nec ....well I play an ele/N because Nec are pretty powerful and I feel I can get the best of both worlds

Just opened up a 2nd account and plan on trying a Nec/Mo...poor ele's they're not what they used to be

and Rangers just own them.

schutz · Dec 27, 2005, 07:15 PM // 19:15

if you dont like it, use one of the other many classes available to you! most of us had to so you can to

Tarot Ribos · Dec 27, 2005, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Burakus has a point. Fire is the most supported element earlier in the game, with the others playing catchup. It seems the only other element that gets skills pre-searing is Air... and Blinding Flash has no business being in that part of the game.

Fire gets Flare and Firestorm early on. And early in the game is where Flare shines. It can put out a DPS over five times that of an elementalist wanding things. Air gets... Lightning Javelin. Which is not spammable, and expensive for the damage. Oh yeah, and up until the major Charr encounters, you'll rarely find a need for the interruption.

Water and Earth just get screwed completely. There's nothing to say about these two.

All the early game support is why most ele's use Fire. And since the nerfing hurt Fire the most, many people are viewing Eles as weaker classes. In all honesty, though, the nerf was needed. It just doesn't make sense for an enemy to stand in the Firestorm taking a constant stream of damage.

So now it seems the biggest professions are Warriors, Monks, and Necros. Where's the love for the Rangers and especially Mesmers in PvE? Mesmers are capable of damage spikes too, you know! Not to mention enemies are stupid enough to continue attacking under Empathy and cast spells under Backfire. Oh, it's area damage you want? What about the Ranger's traps?

Honestly, the discrimination against Rangers and Mesmers is pointless, stupid, and annoying. So much so, I don't even bother with PUGs anymore. I automatically take henchmen.

knives · Dec 27, 2005, 07:38 PM // 19:38

The aoe nerf was to disrupt solo UW who used balthazars aura, and many other farmers who did so. The debilitation of the fire line was just a sacrifice they had to make.

PS: Earth does more damage.

Burakus Lightwing · Dec 27, 2005, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarot Ribos

So now it seems the biggest professions are Warriors, Monks, and Necros. Where's the love for the Rangers and especially Mesmers in PvE? Mesmers are capable of damage spikes too, you know! Not to mention enemies are stupid enough to continue attacking under Empathy and cast spells under Backfire. Oh, it's area damage you want? What about the Ranger's traps?

Honestly, the discrimination against Rangers and Mesmers is pointless, stupid, and annoying. So much so, I don't even bother with PUGs anymore. I automatically take henchmen.

I hope I didn't sound like I was bashing the Rangers...well maybe a bit.
My apologies.. I think they are a very powerful class. So much so that I have started one on each account. I'm running a Ranger/Mes and a Ranger/Ele. If you can't beat them...join them!! I also just started a mes primary. It's fun(for me) to play around with different builds...yes even in PvE
As I stated before I play an Ele as well and l-o-v-e it. I'm just a little saddend by the reduced production..this could also be me too

As for the necro, well I'm going to try the necro/monk and see how I like it. With the Ele/N I use blood and curse and really don't like death magoc at all. So we'll see how a Necro prime goes. I can see myself switching to a Necro/ele or even an Ele/mes(which could be loads of fun) or a Mes/ele for fast casting those damage spells. If Death magic is what I need to rely on for a necro though, that won't be for me, I'm no minion master.

So Schutz if you were talking to me...well I'm currently running 6 different PvE characters over 2 accounts. So I have made others and I still do enjoy taking my Ele out for a spin.

Effendi Westland · Dec 28, 2005, 02:14 AM // 02:14

My thoughts: I hope they nerf the necro class

Kilabi · Dec 28, 2005, 03:02 AM // 03:02

I hope they nerf the ranger class

and the warrior

and the necro

and the monk

and the mesmer

Damn iam a Ele! I am the only one supposed to deal damage. U cant do that to me!

Thats what this Thread sounds to me. Ever tried to play a Necro without farming? Tried to get a group in early missions? Tried to get a group which doesnt want u to minion/SS/batterypack? Ever tried to get a group into SF with a ranger?
And the necro for sure isnt the one to be nerft. SS was there before the elenerf and nobody was intressted in it because Echo/MS/arcane echo/MS/ MS owned in PvE. Now you´r not the uberKillers so you think the class which took ur place should be nerft?
Ele is and will be the class which allways will find a group. Just look at normal Groups: Monks Ele Warrior multiplied numbers u need.
Eles are not the one to complain about their weakness and not finding a group.

MoeSyzslak · Dec 28, 2005, 06:33 PM // 18:33

SS...overpowered? C'mon...

In PvP all the opposition needs to do is smite it or stand still...or have a mesmer shut me down...or a necro degen me...or a ranger interrupt me...or an ele spank my buttery soft scar covered flesh.

In PvE the issue folks may have is that baddies in SF & UW are quite vulnerable to it. It's not overpowered, just happens that the AI in some lucrative places is vulnerable to it so it's especially useful.

There are many other places I've found where a nec has an easier time blood spiking and using wells or MMing.

evil.E · Dec 28, 2005, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarot Ribos

Water and Earth just get screwed completely. There's nothing to say about these two.

I can still solo farm Minos and Griffons with my earth ele. The thing you have to realize about the Ele lines is that only 2 of them are set up for pure damage (Fire & Air). Water is more defensive while Earth is sort of a middle ground between Damage and Defense.

As far as the AoE nerf it's a sad day when the AI is smart enough to move out of an AoE spell yet real players don't have the common sense to do the same. How many PuGs have you been in where the player still tries to cast while standing in the middle of a Maelstrom?

IMO Eles still have a place and whenever I put together a Guild group I always include one. The problem is that most of them didn't change their strats after the AoE nerf. They still bring useless AoE spells like Firestorm or Searing heat instead of focusing on direct damage. This is the change I made and have never triggered a mob to run even though I still use fire magic during missions.

I also don't rely on being invited to groups to do what I need to do. If my guildies aren't on then henchies work just fine. It's funny how people cry about henchies eating up your drops but fail to realize that it's no different then being in a random PuG. After all what are the odds of Random Player X giving you that rare Chaos Axe just out of the goodness of their heart?

Vilaptca · Dec 28, 2005, 10:22 PM // 22:22

I'd just like to mention that you are complaining about a Elite skill being more powerful than normal skills. Thats a pretty silly basis for an argument.

ERMC · Dec 29, 2005, 09:02 AM // 09:02

it's true that Eles are not as popular as they use to be they still get in groups rather easily. I seen plenty of people asking for echo nukers for farming and FoW and all that stuff. The problem is with eles that can't break the habit and don't realize the old tactics don't work anymore. Those eles give the rest of the GW players a bad impression just as bad mesmers and bad rangers and bad w/mos do for those classes. As for why u got a better chance of finding 10 fire eles by standing still in warcamp before u even see a water ele is just the way the game is set up as has been stated before. The game gives very powerfull spells early in the game, heck you get meteor shower in Kryta. Now it's the necros turn to be the the most popular caster (besides the monk). The irony is AoE nurf made the AI run out of a shower which many people say should happen but the necro SS just exploits more AI stupidity. They attack through a condition while all there friends are getting hurt. The AoE nurf was more for solo monks then echo nukers.

The funny part is you keep implying that echo nuking was a challenge. It was far from that and if u stack ele attun, fire attun then archane echo, meteor shower, firestorm, meteor shower u will never have mana issues and that is just one example. MM is much harder to run as many people can say they seen crappy MM but the goods one shine. I do agree that an echo SS is the same thing as a echo nuker and don't worry as any guild wars player can see Anet will do something to the AI again or to the skill (as they have done to PB for the 55hp monk the nightmares in UW and so on) and a new build will release and the cycle will continue.

To finish up Fire ele is still the most popular ele in guild wars still is regardless of AoE nerf. Few eles after the update switched elements. If you think it's hard to get a group as a fire ele please go to ToA, go to warcamp, go to any mission outpost and you will still see eles getting in groups just as easy as before. If you can't handle the down talk from other players then get thicker skin. I bet if i get on my water ele and you and your nuker we both go to ToA advertise let's see how many groups ask you to join compared to me. Even though taking a water ele with a nuker would be the smartest thing to do cause i can bring down the enemies to a snails pace and nukers can feel all powerfull again dropping hot rocks on people. They made the class not as mindless as before and echo nuking was a no brainer. the echo SS will be nerfed in some way just a matter of time.

saphir · Dec 29, 2005, 10:08 AM // 10:08

i never do understand these class vs class things... ele vs necro, monk vs wars and everyone else, mesmers/rangers vs the world...
or people in the game who generalize that all eles suck, or all w/mo are idiots. do they mean 'all w/mo's are idiots, except my w/mo of course' or do they mean 'all w/mo's are idiots, my necro owns you... but it's the only class i've ever played'

i don't know about anyone else, but i have 4 chars in my account, a monk, necro, a mes, and a ranger. my first character was an ele/r (never went e/me as i don't like exhaustion), but finally deleted to make room for my mes as i got bored of playing 4mil xp worth of the ele. maybe players who generalize have 4 character slots filled w/ w/mo w/mo w/mo w/mo or n/mo n/mo mo/w mo/w?

i agree with the above poster that it's a sad day when your own party members are more dumb than the enemy's AI routines. When casters stand in maelstrom/chaos storm/firestorm and warriors merrily frenzy through SS while casters crowd around them... you know that day has arrived.
I do not stand near anyone with SS on them, I do not sit like a duck when hit by barrage, and I get the hell out of there when there's a firestorm or balth's aura nearby. So should the enemy, and one day if anet holds true to the calim that the AOE nerf was "how the AI was originally meant to be and not aimed at farmers" then maybe that will happen.

Until then, play another class or change your skills around. There are so many to choose from! Mix fire and earth, or earth and water, or go earth.

Let me tell you the most remarkable thing I saw the other day in UW.
It was an earth ele, just killing the aatxes at melee range like there was no tomorrow, self supporting and doing much better than the warriors. Barely took any damage and was giving those bulls a good smacking.

There's a whole sand box of skills out there, and many a corner all of us have yet to explore.

Moon-Gel · Dec 31, 2005, 02:57 AM // 02:57

this is totally off topic, and i will take flame for this, but i remember i d2 LoD when patch 1.10 came out, it completly shut down java zons. It took awhile, but people found ways to make them "do-able" thats just what needs to happen now, find effective use of fire nukes.

but i would like to complain about we were degraded for just "echo and MS" what bout SS necros? echo and ss, and spam sv?

also ive found w/ MS in Sf theyll take 2 hits from a shower and run, witch is stilla bit of dmg. just u know little heads up

P

Xpl0iter · Jan 05, 2006, 11:46 AM // 11:46

Hello every one, sorry was busy in real life, so couldn't reply.
@striderkaaru
Let me clear something very basic here. I Still play as Fire ele After AOE nerf, and i still do hell of a chaos without silly ass necros ( mind u, thats one of my characters too ) I have been an SS necro my self, and quite honest, i can eat a sandwich with one hand, and play with the other and talk on a speaker phone while paying much attention to what i am doing and yet taking hell of a lives in pve. In my fire build, which was *not* taken from a site, i had come up with an original build in 2 days after the nerf AND proved it still kicked ass. ISSUE is not my own ability, but people's mind just doesn't accept the fact that ELES still WORK if used right. Sure i need to use every single of my 8 skills which i have and need certain weapons to be affective PLUS i need to pay ALL the attention i have got. Necro, well, 4 would be fine for my SS build and mind You, it includes an ECHO skill, so..... shall i call it, SS ECHO nuker? I don't know which time that was when people were crazy for eles, i purchased this game not long enough, and i chose my character cause of the fact that i love magic.
And in last, FIRE is the most used element Not cause the player itself wants to have it, BUT the OTHER people who will mostly seek an elemental who can produce some DAMAGE. Hence, i will assume it is also a way of being forced by the community to use fire element?
I am not a bad Air spiker my self, but it is People that want me to be a FIRE element when it comes to PVE. I Hope that answers the "You Shouldn't Complaint" part you had in your post.

@Burakus Lightwing
My point is not very different than that of yours. Most basic eles i have met nowadays still hold firestorm, and wondering why groups just doesn't want them any more. i Do run them free to yak's bend and get them the proper skills which would hold them for a while for Basic ELE using.
Even then, the issue stays, their basic skill which they are being provided with is Firestorm and not Fireball. I guess ANET needs to fix that part?

@schutz
I do not see a point of Ele class existing if most of you had to switch to other professions and accepting the idea of "Ele is Useless".... Question is this, why can't eles be balanced any more like someone mentioned in post above... by giving them new skills like Fireball?
You can't make this game nerf an entire class where so many people like magic skills just cause of the Nerfing of Farming act? I do not see much of a nerf any way where Necro and Monk builds are still ruling UW with dual builds? Get my point? AOE affect in UW mean't not much of a difference even after the Nerf!

@knives
sure does, but not as quickly spamable as fire, i have tried earth build for a change along with water build too.. Just for Teh Kickz!

@Vilaptca
Question, is there any Other elite from any other profession which basically is doing the damage in Area ( all the adjacent enemies technically is an Area of enemies my friend, basic of maths ) and they all get shadow damage, which ignores armour? Why don't you bring in the effect of Armour for SS and then increase the Area of Spiteful Spirit to see if that works? Just a thought if Foes get Intellegent enough to notice their health dropping for some reason when they are close to whom they attack... hm? None of my elites can do a chaos like an SS does any way.

@ERMC
I will totally agree with you that eles are being given a bad impression due to the fact that Most people use eles for their Spells, and forget that there HAS to be a combo to apply proper damage to the target. Hence people just prefer an SS necro along with minnion master ( remember the example i gave above of me eating? ) i really can do what i have said above. My whole point is Quite the same, SS needs to be toned down a bit to bring eles back into scene, Not as powerful as pre nerf, but not as weak either as Post nerf.
I am just waiting for SS to be toned down.

IN last

All i gotta say is this. I am proud of me being an ele, and the groups i farm with, Do accept that eles are still worth being grouped with. The issue is the number of idiots out there who have no idea about the ele usage, be that Any class in elements. I now switch to the character which a group seeks when ever i want to do farming, and it works, i just have 3 characters to play with. My ele, necro, and war. Their secondary class doesn't matter cause i switch them back and forth all the time.
The point i intend to convey is the use of AOE effect with SS while AI just ignores the Dmg that SS is causing them. Don't go telling me that it is cause one is Elite and other skill is "just another". An AOE is an AOE, it is suppose to affect each and every skill with every profession.
Regardz

An Elementalist

LightningHell · Jan 05, 2006, 12:17 PM // 12:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by saphir

Let me tell you the most remarkable thing I saw the other day in UW.
It was an earth ele, just killing the aatxes at melee range like there was no tomorrow, self supporting and doing much better than the warriors. Barely took any damage and was giving those bulls a good smacking.

Oh, so someone noticed. Aftershock + Earthquake + Crystal Wave = Pwnage, with some evasion skills or a /Mo for IMonk. (I'm an E/Mo, so I would know, right?) AND Armor of Earth + the pitiful 60 AL = pwning armor. Of course, there's Obsidian Flesh, but that's an elite, and Kinetic Armor, but I tend to not bring that. An ele can get to quantissimal armor and still, the Warrior is considered the 00b3r 74nk3rz. Because that's what they're born to do, but don't do well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xpl0iter

All i gotta say is this. I am proud of me being an ele, and the groups i farm with, Do accept that eles are still worth being grouped with. The issue is the number of idiots out there who have no idea about the ele usage, be that Any class in elements.

Clap clap clap. /signed. Me too.