Curse

Avarre · Feb 15, 2006, 05:20 AM // 05:20

Unless you are a warrior, in which case with enough capital letters, people will learn to stay back and let you hold the aggro properly

Book is logical that some monsters attack the holder... it's like in PvP, you try and bring down the guy stealing the relic. But mosnters in all of FoW shouldn't... just the shadows around the priest area.

Sagius Truthbarron · Feb 15, 2006, 08:48 AM // 08:48

Alot of people probably just get their warrior to do it becuase they don't know him, and assume hes too dumb to do anything but stand there and activate his skills anyway, which is probably true with most warriors.

When go to play at Thunder Head Keep, I see that most people are still using their pre-searing builds. (Healing breeze, Orison, mighty blow) People don't know how to play Guild Wars becuase it takes thinking ability. They like to hit stuff, not think. That's why they call Tank Healer Nuke "HULK SMASH!"

striderkaaru · Feb 15, 2006, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by {IceFire}

ive almost never been in a pug that could control aggroe. when you have a competent tank, no. but its pretty necessary for a non-guild group, IMO

why is it necessary?

tanking for fow pugs was how i learned to tank back in the days. that was where i learned to protect casters and that 3 berserkers let loose on your monk is a bad thing.

the problem, as avarre mentioned, is that it's a vicious cycle. most pug tanks are afraid to learn through mistakes, so they rely on the book. they're afraid because people will yell and insult them for making mistakes, not realizing that proper aggro is as much the casters' job as it is the tank's. they keep relying on it, thus never developing their skills. then, the cycle just keeps going on.

if there is no easy way to fix the ai with regards to book/keg/gear/something holders, i say anet should just remove the "army of darkness" quest from fow. get rid of the book and anything you can hold completely from fow. that way, people will have to learn or stick to the furnace.

Avarre · Feb 15, 2006, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Don't remove army, just swap dragon liches with shadow monks, swap priest of menzies with Dragon Lich level 30, fix it to actually deal damage, and make the quest to destroy the dragon

And I said FIX DRAGON LICH. We're talking dual-elite, 17 blood and 17 curses, 8 skill monster here with 200dmg melee.

striderkaaru · Feb 15, 2006, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

And I said FIX DRAGON LICH. We're talking dual-elite, 17 blood and 17 curses, 8 skill monster here with 200dmg melee.

and make it have chilblains, so it strips prots like prot spirit and guardian. also, it should be like a boss and have shortened duration of hexes. omg, mayhem.

Avarre · Feb 15, 2006, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Dragon lich already has chiliblains AND 1/2 hex and conditions, newb

striderkaaru · Feb 15, 2006, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Dragon lich already has chiliblains AND 1/2 hex and conditions, newb

sorry, what?

i'm too busy swinging my axe at it. pshh, i just hold it in place. i don't have to know things like that.

Avarre · Feb 15, 2006, 04:24 PM // 16:24

You aren't at all concerned why enchants on you are going away, and why you are inexplicably poisoned?

Dear gods, man.

Give dragon lich: desecrate enchantments, barbs, life transfer, mark of pain, chiliblains, plague touch, deafening roar, and Spiteful spirit. That thing is huge, it terrifies new groups, and it about as dangerous as a charr axe fiend.

Nater · Feb 15, 2006, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Having a warrior who knows how to control aggro is exactly the same as using the book trick. Just he gets to use his shield and have more defense.

How do you "control" aggro? Come hell or high water those shadow warriors are bent on getting the squishies sometimes.

striderkaaru · Feb 15, 2006, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nater

How do you "control" aggro? Come hell or high water those shadow warriors are bent on getting the squishies sometimes.

"controlling" aggro is the way in which you can "lock" the monster's attention on someone. this is only done properly if both the tank and the casters know what to do. if this lock is never broken, the monsters will never go for the squishies.

some warriors even know how to regain aggro on specific targets if it is broken on them using a combination of skills and positioning.

it's not so much controlling, but knowing how to get their attention.

Simdarth · Feb 15, 2006, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by animeba

"One of my last FoW runs was with a pro group. We ran thru Tower of Courage, Wailing Lord and Griffons without the tome. The single warrior was leading, and controlling aggro 100%. Best group ever in FoW. I hate to go back now. "

Doing the griffon mission without book is fairly suicidal & unwise. The griffon will rush into the battle and your monks will have to keep all of them alive. You should be thanking your monk, not the warrior, if you did the griffon mission successfully without book.

Guild wars does not have a sophisticated aggro manage system.
The warrior has no skills that will IMMEDIATELY attract aggro from nearby monster that is killing his teammate. While experienced players will stay out of a warriors aggro bubble, most PUG players will not do so. The book trick is just a proven way to control aggro to complete missions, and get loot. It is extremely efficient, allowing you to bring enemy fighers together with the enemy casters. AOE with meteor shower & other skills to quickly kill a group <15 secs.

If someone has an efficient way to control aggro with PUG members without the book, please share your wisdom.

Amen. I like PuGs and would never be too negative about them, but you are dealing with 7 unknowns unless you have friends of guildies with you. Sometimes the group you are with is just not experienced enough to go full bore. I've never used this trick but I think I may just once to see how it is.

Linsys · Feb 15, 2006, 07:39 PM // 19:39

I refuse to go to FoW in a PUG group without the book trick.. most PUG groups can't even make it to the book let alone complete quests without the book..

However, the book trick can get boring when running with an experienced group... I just spam some heals, its very boring for me as the monk.. I've also ran the book as warrior with an experienced group and its crazy boring as well.

Again, most pug groups can't even make it to the book let alone complete quests without it.. its too hard in PvE to know what skill level each person is at..

Generally I would say it isn't always the warrior who doesn't know how to control agao (most of the time it is when they run in, then walk backwards toward the group, like that does any good, right?), but a lot of time other players don't know how to control agro either, they run in with the warrior and break agro, this isn't the warriors fault..

Most people have NO clue what the agro buble is.

Linsys · Feb 15, 2006, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by animeba

"One of my last FoW runs was with a pro group. We ran thru Tower of Courage, Wailing Lord and Griffons without the tome. The single warrior was leading, and controlling aggro 100%. Best group ever in FoW. I hate to go back now. "

Doing the griffon mission without book is fairly suicidal & unwise. The griffon will rush into the battle and your monks will have to keep all of them alive. You should be thanking your monk, not the warrior, if you did the griffon mission successfully without book.

If someone has an efficient way to control aggro with PUG members without the book, please share your wisdom.

The griffon mission is SOOOO SOOO SOOO SOO EASY, here is the trick...

Ok you obviously killed everything and made it to the Waling Lord, right? So you get the griffin quest... then you move past the bridge to the right... get out a little ways (make sure everything is dead in the area (should be already)... go far enough so you can't see the wailing lord, but not far enough so that the new skeletons who spawned show up..

At this point EVERYONE STANDS STILL... that means don't cast spells, don't dance don't do anything..

ONE PERSON, again thats ONE person, runs all the way back to the wailing lord, across the brigdge and into the corner with the griffins.. once that player is in position, tell the rest of the members to move.. they go forward and clear the way... the griffins just stand back as long as they are off the attacking teams map...

Once the area is clear, tell the player in the back with the griffins to come, he will come with the griffins, smothe saling all the way, no agro, no attacking, no book needed.

Shadowspawn X · Feb 15, 2006, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Really digging up some old threads I see, but on topic I dont use the book trick for short armor runs, but when I clear all 11 quest I grab the book. Why? Because of the low quality of monks. I can take a terrible monk to FoW with the book trick and just let him heal one person most of the night. There are three people in this thread who have done all 11 quests in FoW with me and I think they will agree its better safe than sorry with strange monks. I have however done every quest in the Fissure without the book.

{IceFire} · Feb 15, 2006, 11:11 PM // 23:11

the reason i think it is necessary for most pugs is because the last 15 pugs ive been in, fow and tombs, have had enemies running rampant all over the casters when the warriors fall back into them, etc.

Racthoh · Feb 16, 2006, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by {IceFire}

the reason i think it is necessary for most pugs is because the last 15 pugs ive been in, fow and tombs, have had enemies running rampant all over the casters when the warriors fall back into them, etc.

Then you need monks who know how to handle the situation.

As of late, I only bring my monk into PUGs because it's impossible to find 7 other people who will let me aggro. Correction, hard to find 7 other people who will let me return the book for the quest reward. I have more faith in my monk keeping a party alive than my warrior since it only takes my knowledge of the aggro circle to keep myself alive to heal the others rather than relying on the other 7 letting my warrior take aggro. Generally, the group will go without deaths or few by the time we get to the quest when someone will mention "we using book?".

Why? We've managed this far without it, why decide to start using it? Is their goal only to be good enough to clear the first 45 minutes of FoW? At which point I will promptly warn the group that I'll quit if they use the book for aggro.

CartmanPT · Feb 16, 2006, 02:21 AM // 02:21

The last time i did fow without book trick was.....hum..... today :P
Actualy, i´ve NEVER used the book trick, how???? Group = Guild
Sometimes it goes well, sometimes not, but at least its fun

striderkaaru · Feb 16, 2006, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by {IceFire}

the reason i think it is necessary for most pugs is because the last 15 pugs ive been in, fow and tombs, have had enemies running rampant all over the casters when the warriors fall back into them, etc.

flawed reasoning.

this is the case with most pugs because they never learn how to play properly. they always have the "trick" to fall back on. if you remove it, then they are forced to learn to get better. people will be forced to learn about aggro management and such. the way i see it, half of the pugs out there have potential to get better, but they never do because people force them into using the book trick. remove the book, and you give them room to grow as a player.

we all make mistakes our first times around. if we learn from them, we get better. if you don't allow room for mistakes, then you also don't allow room for improvements. not all of the blame falls on the newer players who don't know what to do. i'd say most of it lies with the more experienced players who yell at them instead of teaching them.

Sk8tborderx · Feb 16, 2006, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Easy way to get a good group that does not rely on the book trick is require Vent/TS. Make your own group and let everyone know what is going on. People tend to listen better when they can hear you and not reading what you are typing.