Curse

Linsys · Mar 20, 2006, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire Childe

Most of the stance builds adapted for use in fissure of woe were taken straight out of sorrow's furnace since book tanking essentially = gear tanking and it eliminates the need to worry about holding aggro.

I think you have it backwards, FoW was arround a LONG time before SF... the "book trick" was arround LONG b4 the gear and keg in SF...

Most stance builds where taken from FoW and adapted for SF.

Ira Blinks · Mar 21, 2006, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Fire Childe
dont be a smartass... Eaimirth Etaivella (nor me) never said that it sole warrior's responsibility to hold aggro, we just stated that it _is_ his responsibility to tank, because people who do damage or heal him simply can not do that. But since you've already started:
1) Mobs _always_ pick on target with lowest HP in range, not AC.
2) If you play caster, try no to wand ranged mobs, and nobody will hurt you, that again got nothing to do with your AC.
3) As poster above me pointed out Fissure was there way before SF.

Linsys · Mar 21, 2006, 01:41 AM // 01:41

A few corrections...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire Childe

Most of the stance builds adapted for use in fissure of woe were taken straight out of sorrow's furnace since book tanking essentially = gear tanking and it eliminates the need to worry about holding aggro. That said, you actually have to get to the book first and alot of groups are woefully ill prepared for that, since a number of popular warrior builds are designed to only be effective when holding the book. Also, I have to tell bonders in many pickups not to bond me because early on, shatter enchants end up doing more harm than good.

Already addressed, the book trick has been arround long before SF ever existed in the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire Childe

There is also some kind of misunderstanding about creature aggro (one that is widespread) and once again, I am apalled at how many players expect 1 guy to hold all the aggro of all the mixed mobs in fissure without actually knowing much about how creature aggro works.

Creatures always attack the lowest AC creature within attacking range. If you do Racthoh's spider run using 2 people - a warrior and a ranger, you can send 1 warrior up ahead to take all the aggro. But if the ranger moves up later, even after aggro has been firmly established on the warrior, you will find the spiders in firing range will simply switch targets and attack the ranger.

This all depends on what the ranger wants to attack... see the problem is that the ranger needs to attack the closest target... the problem is that alot of times rangers and other classes break agro because they attack a far side target...unless the ranger is for some reason using a short bow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire Childe

It doesnt quite work like that in melee range, since you can hold the aggro of melee creatures although certain conditions force a melee creature to reaquire the lowest AC creature in range. A knockdown used to do this as well as inflicting cripple upon that creature.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire Childe

Creatures are also sensitive to enchantments run on players and you can test this out for yourself. Go to nebo terrace with 2 warriors. One with mending. One without. Cast mending on yourself. Aggro in any order you want. The ettins will always aquire the player without mending if he is in range. The only exceptions are when the path to the non mending player is physically blocked (by terrain or by the mending player) or if the non mending player is not in range of the creature's aggro bubble when it aquires the mending player.

Again the point is to NOT be in range, if casters and rangers select the closest target and then press the skill they wish to use, their character will run in and stop at spell legenth, this WILL NOT BREAK AGRO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire Childe

The first method is called bodyblocking or corner blocking. Bodyblocking when you literally use your own character to block the path of a creature to its target. This will force that creature to reaquire the nearest, lowest AC creature that it can attack. Often, because that creature is physically stuck on you, it will attack you instead. You can use corners or terrain obstructions to do this also (where it is referred to as corner blocking).

This is NOT needed at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire Childe

The second method is one popularised in Underworld many many months ago, and involves sending a protected target (usually a stance warrior) up ahead of the group and outside healing/attacking range of the rest of the team. That target takes all the aggro and there is never any issue of creatures aquiring any other target because none are in their attacking range. This is slightly more dangerous than corner blocking for the tank because you necessarily have to be outside healing/attacking range of the rest of your party. So for a short while you are on your own. Once aggro has been established, the rest of the party can move up but ranged hostiles will switch targets to the nearest, lowest AC player.

This is the proper way to acquire agro, and you are correct SOMETIMES a ranged hostile will break agro, IF the entire team (except for the tank) simpy take a few steps back then ALL agro will return to the tank.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire Childe

In fissure, where mobs often consist of a mix of ranged and melee creature types, it is very difficult to control aggro in this way given that:

1) there are few terrain obstructions out on the plains in order to make corner blocking/body blocking effective. Until you can get to the book that is.

NOT NEEDED

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire Childe

2) Ranged creatures will reaquire the lowest AC creature in attacking range anyway.

NOT ALWAYS, RARELY I would say

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire Childe

3) It is not necessarily the case that every squishy in your party will actually stay out of aggro range when you attempt to draw aggro. That will screw the whole thing up and you will see the very familiar sight of shadow mobs and skeletons running straight past the tank and start bailing on mr joe. monk. Very common in pick ups.

Well then the problem is that agro was broken incorrectly... this isn't the tanks fault this is because, well some people are just stupid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire Childe

4) Very little testing has gone into how creatures prioritize enchantments and whether they are sensitive to armour derived from enchantments (like armour of earth). Or enchants that reduce damage taken (i.e. protective bond). Therefore given the makeup of your party, it isnt always predictable what player creatures will likely target first if they have to reaquire another target.

Who cares?? If agro is taken properly and managed by the entire team this is a non issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire Childe

I dont use the book trick because it really is the lamest way to play the game. If you know how to kite and know when to run away you simply cannot die in fissure. Most of the people who die in the fissure pugs ive played in are either:

1) 55 monks. yep. they ate shatter enchantment.

I can show you my 55 monk can stay alive in FoW... again you are mistaken.... a 55 Necro can also stay alive in FoW, for that matter a 55 anything (monk secondary) can stay alive in FoW... they do use shatter enchantments, however simply covering your enchantments will address this issue just fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire Childe

2) people staying and fighting when the aggro messes up - even against 2 or 3 mobs when someone isnt watching their radar. Especially given they could just run away.

AGREED!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire Childe

3) people that killed themselves or their teammates by attacking with spiteful and/or mark of pain/empathy on them.

The monk should be able to hande this without issue... I monk in FoW all the time, and when people get SS on them they are all "OMG I better stop attacking" I say who cares.. I can keep them alive no problem, Ijust ask they stand away from other members of the team and outside of agro. This does require a LITTLE bit of intelligence... however this should be expected.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire Childe

4) people not knowing or understanding why 'kiting' is a good idea.

AGREE

---------------------------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire Childe

Problems arise when groupies expect warriors to hold all the aggro when it is the warrior's teammates that are screwing it up. In truth, fissure is still easy without the book and its easy using warriors without any self healing or any defensive stances. You just need to know *your role* in your party and whether or not the weaknesses in your build can be covered adequately by by your teammates. In turn your function within the team necessarily helps them.

Agreed, however A LOT Of warriors don't know how to take paths which keep their team out of agro... they just "run in" and don't watch the radar, when I play tank if someone is too close I go back and say, so and so backup please... then I take a round about path to ensure that I have agro to begin with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire Childe

Alot of the warrior builds I used in fissure were very offensive. Usually heavy on interrupts with a bit of direct damage and a hex strip. The amount of fireballs/firestorms/spitefuls/marks of pain/meteor showers that you can stop dead in their tracks contributes greatly in terms of lessening the damage taken by your party. Which in turn makes everyone else's job easier (especially joe monks). I thought this was what teamwork was all about?

Maxiemonster · Mar 21, 2006, 10:48 AM // 10:48

If you had experience with FoW, you know you can easily clear FoW with a PUG. I had a 6-man PUG last run (we started with 8, but 2 left quickly). As long as you have a Bonder (with preferably Life Barrier and Life Bond) and a Tank that'll hold the book, it's easy. Don't take 3 Monks, it's not needed. AoE is very effective too (SS, Nuking).

RotteN · Mar 21, 2006, 10:58 AM // 10:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

so basically because you like to play questionable damage dealer, the core of the group (casters and healers) have to put up with mob melee all over them, get no heals, because you using them all up, die, be called noob and eventually quit. Dont take it as offense, but rather a reasonable question: why dont you play with 7 other wammos then?

newsflash : you can deal a lot of damage and hold aggro at the same time as a warrior, it's called bodyblocking. Of course, that doesn't work when your casters are standing next to you/in front of you, a common disease in pugs :P

people blame warriors for everything that goes wrong these days, in my last pug, i was standing next to our monks, waiting to regen, and one of our ele's rushes in, half of our team gets killed, and i take the blame for "being a rushing noob" ... right ...

Avarre · Mar 21, 2006, 11:54 AM // 11:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by RotteN

newsflash : you can deal a lot of damage and hold aggro at the same time as a warrior, it's called bodyblocking. Of course, that doesn't work when your casters are standing next to you/in front of you, a common disease in pugs :P

Newsflash 2, you can deal a lot of damage and hold aggro at the same time as warrior, it is called taking aggro and not holding the lame book.

Although again, won't work with idiot casters in pugs

linsys has a nice post... just my opinion here:

Quote:

people staying and fighting when the aggro messes up - even against 2 or 3 mobs when someone isnt watching their radar. Especially given they could just run away.

2 or 3 mobs don't pose a threat to a full pug team. A ranger or even a mesmer can try and hold the split aggro and they can be brought down, while the warrior holds as much aggro as possible. Since 99% of pug teams aggro the skeletal berserkers on the casters, tanking and killing as caster is appreciated (distortion spam to counter wild blow, necro with minor heals and ss, ranger with unguent, ele with wards/blind, monk with prot, etc).

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxiemonster

If you had experience with FoW, you know you can easily clear FoW with a PUG. I had a 6-man PUG last run (we started with 8, but 2 left quickly). As long as you have a Bonder (with preferably Life Barrier and Life Bond) and a Tank that'll hold the book, it's easy. Don't take 3 Monks, it's not needed. AoE is very effective too (SS, Nuking).

Bonder is overrated in my opinion (shatter enchants are common, and no SB makes bonds fodder for that). If you're stooping to carrying book, a SB/Boonprot monk is the strongest and can heal the tank solo anywhere in fow, so long as at least 1 other person has hex removal (for skales in burning forest) and so long as the tank is not crap. Without book, in a PuG a bonder is better because casters are going to be hit, alot, since chances of getting a good aggro'er and casters that work with them are very low.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Mar 22, 2006, 04:51 AM // 04:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherno

The most important is the tank to hold aggro. Why people can't understand the concept of "Stay out of the tanks bubble until he firmly establishes agro" is beyond me.

I mean seriously, I have met warriors that do not understand this...

Zhongchao · Mar 22, 2006, 10:58 PM // 22:58

According to Fire Childe's post regarding aggro in GW, it seems nearly impossible for the warrior to consistently hold aggro; unlike other MMOs where aggro is much more manageable. Also, Fire Childe's description of aggro is what I have experienced doing 2-man farms.

So then the problem becomes: how exactly does the warrior hold aggro if certain short/medium range spells MUST break aggro in order to be cast? Can you blame the monk for moving into range to heal the tanking warrior for breaking aggro?

Anyways, I agree with Fire Childe in that kiting is a very important skill for GW. Many times when I acquired aggro, I simply step back five feet (in game) to have aggro switched to some other character. Problem is, 95% of the time, the character who acquires my aggro is not the tank and half of the time, he/she does not know how to kite. In the end someone ends up dying.

I think what I want to ask is... Why can't they just make the game like other MMOs where aggro is established after a certain amount of damage has been done and aggro breaks if:
a) there is a nuker who is going crazy on the mob and hitting with every spell
b) there is a healer healing too often.

(just for reference, the above is how aggro worked in DAOC)

Ira Blinks · Mar 22, 2006, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Avarre, RotteN
if you borrow me a warrior who can do that i will agree with you, untill then my experience say that warriors with bunch of attack skills DIE like flyes in november, and dont pull agrument into "omg get out of my aggro circle", that got nothing to do with what i said.

Kcp · Mar 23, 2006, 12:03 AM // 00:03

The only thing a tank needs in FoW is dolyak sig and maybe an extra armor buff or 2 depending on how large the groups you are gathering may be . Bonds or any other type of enchantment are asking for a shatter enchantment spike in there every 20 seconds. Stances are next to worthless as well due to the constant wild blow, called shot, irresistable blow, and griffons sweep.

lagrand1 · Mar 23, 2006, 12:15 AM // 00:15

I've been in FoW about 60-80 times. Not the most experienced, but not unexp either. I am stance tank for the group. Dolyak sig, shields up, defensive stance and gladiators defense are my defensive skills. These, and a monk with one or 2 bond skills, make me invincible. I have my 4 attack skills for my axe. Thats what I take. I like to take a damage warrior along. Unfortunately, most teams I've been on include people that will pull aggro off me. Namely the person that targets an enemy and follows it when it runs away. Having a second warrior helps kill the berserkers that target our casters that way.
I don't mind noob players. My 2 pet peeves are those that just won't listen and are rude. Or the idiot punks that draw swastikas on the screen.

Y.T. · Mar 30, 2006, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

so basically because you like to play questionable damage dealer, the core of the group (casters and healers) have to put up with mob melee all over them, get no heals, because you using them all up, die, be called noob and eventually quit. Dont take it as offense, but rather a reasonable question: why dont you play with 7 other wammos then?

what attitude? he's bringing a wammo (!!!!!) and he's not going to help the group he just want to run around and whack evrthing with his cute-looking weapon - so basically he's just asking for a free ride with a decent group that knows all maps and can survive with no tank and kill evrthing and keep him alive.... if u wanna do it - go ahead.

he can use search button tho and find HUGE amount of threads discussing tank builds for fow - but he dosnt want to, why bother he's always right. he did 25 runs and 22 of them failed. but he's not a noob of cos an he's gonna run around and do pathetic damage and call evr1 in group names and such *shrugs*

o well mb some guild will take him along for a fow as a charity but... *there aint no such thing as a free lunch*

Y.T. · Mar 30, 2006, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxiemonster

If you had experience with FoW, you know you can easily clear FoW with a PUG. I had a 6-man PUG last run (we started with 8, but 2 left quickly). As long as you have a Bonder (with preferably Life Barrier and Life Bond) and a Tank that'll hold the book, it's easy. Don't take 3 Monks, it's not needed. AoE is very effective too (SS, Nuking).

3 monks.... bonded tanks.... are we talking about fow?
u dont need bonder and u can survive with 1 monk if u have at least 1 mesmer who knows what she/he's doing (shatter hex does more damage than echoed fireboll - i agree).

as for pure stance tank builds - i dont know. w/r with melandu's resilence is nice, no bonds needed, dream tank to heal in fow

@fire childe - it dosnt matter what ench u have on u and in case of 2 ench-ed players it dosnt matters how many ench they have on (i.e. tank with 1 ench on has same chances to aggro as tank with 3 ench). AR dosnt matter, low HP is what makes mob attack u, not low AR...

never saw ppl who run away from the group when they have ss/mop on them - in 95% of cases they just kills themselves and some of teammates if lets say in pug with 2 monks 1 monk dosnt have hex removes and 2nd uses i-hex with hug rech time... in 5% of cases they eventually stop attacking and call ss on them. 80% of barrage rangers continue not only attack but use barrage while hexed with empathy - do i have to say that the cause of death was stupid monk who cant cast remove hex faster than 2 sec casting time?

Avarre · Mar 30, 2006, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

Avarre, RotteN
if you borrow me a warrior who can do that i will agree with you, untill then my experience say that warriors with bunch of attack skills DIE like flyes in november, and dont pull agrument into "omg get out of my aggro circle", that got nothing to do with what i said.

What kcp said, with Dolyak signet and watch yourself as secondary boost, as well as a good monk (spellbreaker FTW)... you cannot easily die in Fissure, except by horrific overaggro.

Build example:

Hundred Blades / Skull crack, Galrath, Final, Flurry, Dolyak signet, Watch yourself, Healing signet, Remove Hex / Res