Curse

striderkaaru · Apr 10, 2006, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Making a mistake (or several mistakes) in the Fissure of Woe is certainly understandable. We learn from our mistakes and become better players through experience. However, it has become a common practice for PUGs to make several mistakes even BEFORE entering the Fissure. What's worse is that, although this is slightly understandable for the uninformed PUG player, I have seen more and more posters on these very forums make the same mistakes.

The forums are a place for all of us to learn, as Guild Wars is a dynamic game with much to discuss. I hope that this little guide will help those currently making these mistakes, as well as newer members who are just learning about the Fissure.

Mistake #1: The Stance Tank
Before I proceed, I realize that there are two types of stance tanks. A type 1 stance tank is the typical warrior stance tank with Glad's Defense, Bonetti's Defense, and Defensive/Disciplined Stance. A type 2 stance tank is a W/Me with Physical/Elemental Resistance.

My criticism applies only for the type 1 stance tank.

Let's take a good look at the skill descriptions. Bonetti's and Defensive only block/evade melee attacks, while Glad's and Disciplined blocks attacks in general. Considering the damage you will be taking on a typical Forgemaster run, this is only effective against Shadow Warriors, Abyssals, and partially against Shadow Rangers.

This means that you have just wasted half of your skill bar on a partially effective build. Spells from Shadows Elementalists and Shadow Mesmers are unaffected. Spiteful Spirit is unaffected. Spells from Skeletal Icehands are unaffected. Skeletal Berserkers use Wild Blow, which will just cancel your stance. Called Shot and poison from Armored Cave Spiders are also unaffected. In essence, the majority of the important damage you are taking goes right through the stances anyway, making it ineffective to devote half of your skill bar to it. And if you ever decide to venture past the typical Forgemaster run, you will discover how even more ineffective your build is.

A type 2 stance tank who carries both Physical and Elemental Resistance can work, and I have nothing against that.

Mistake #2: The Bonder
I'm not quite sure how this one started, but my guess is that the Sorrow's Furnace farmers decided that they were good enough to start playing in the Fissure.

If you read the skill description, you will realize that Life Bond only prevents and redirects damage from attacks. This goes along with my criticisms for a stance tank, as most of the important damage you will be taking in the fissure doesn't come from the attacks. A bonder spends most of his time and effort maintaining the bonds and keeping his energy up. This is a relatively ineffective use of 1 slot in the party, as the damage prevented by Life Bond is minimal, compared to all of the other damage you will be taking. You are also giving the mesmer mobs a free 100+ damage Shatter Enchant.

What about a monk with Life Barrier instead of Life Bond?
Well, that isn't a bonder monk. That's a barrier monk, and it would help to keep the names straight.

Mistake #3: The Battery
The battery necro, or more specifically a necro with Blood is Power, isn't as big of a mistake as the previous 2. It does help with the team build to keep the monks' and damage dealers' energies up.

However, that 1 slot in the party could be used by a character that actually kills things. Also, constantly having a battery in the team breeds laziness, as people will become comfortable with it and will fail to learn about energy management.

It might be okay in a PUG setting, as bad players will need their energy replenished to keep the team going. However, you should learn not to rely on it and manage your own energy.

Mistake #4: The Book Trick
This one is up for debate, so I will leave my thoughts out. However, please keep in mind that you won't develop your gameplay and become better if you always rely on this.

Conclusion:
Before anyone says otherwise, groups can clear the Fissure without ever needing a stance tank, bonder, battery, or librarian. In a PUG setting, a battery nec and the book trick might be acceptable, as bad players will need more failsafe methods to extend their stay, but experienced players shouldn't have to fall back on those. And under no circumstances is a stance tank or bonder ever a good idea.

I realize that a forum is a place for discussion. So, if you disagree with any of my thoughts, feel free to argue with them. But please keep it civil and present proof.

Blade Rez · Apr 10, 2006, 07:42 PM // 19:42

When I play the stance tank, I hate holding book. I think it's a disgrace in which people consider that the tank cannot hold aggro. Along with that, strider what do you think about the tank taking Obsidian Flesh?

ubermancer · Apr 10, 2006, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blade Rez

When I play the stance tank, I hate holding book. I think it's a disgrace in which people consider that the tank cannot hold aggro. Along with that, strider what do you think about the tank taking Obsidian Flesh?

Our guild has used a E/Me as the tank many times before, and it works just fine.

And it can quickly become impossible to hold aggro if the rest of the party tries to rip it off of you.

Racthoh · Apr 10, 2006, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by striderkaaru

Mistake #3: The Battery
The battery necro, or more specifically a necro with Blood is Power, isn't as big of a mistake as the previous 2. It does help with the team build to keep the monks' and damage dealers' energies up.

However, that 1 slot in the party could be used by a character that actually kills things. Also, constantly having a battery in the team breeds laziness, as people will become comfortable with it and will fail to learn about energy management.

It might be okay in a PUG setting, as bad players will need their energy replenished to keep the team going. However, you should learn not to rely on it and manage your own energy.

The battery actually splits into two categories on its own: one that just batteries, and the one that actually has more than Blood is Power and Blood Ritual on his bar.

Having actually played with several batteries as a monk, wow, what a waste of a slot. Firstly, almost all of them don't have an understanding of what 10 seconds is, not to mention that as the battle starts and I'm sitting with full energy I don't need to waste 10+ energy to heal the health he just sacrificed to give me energy I don't need (fun on sentence ftw). Or the ones that will use 3 BiPs whenever his health is at full and then moan when he dies. Well, what were you expecting?

I have, however, seen some interesting and effective batteries. Ones that used Live Vicariously, Insidious Parasite, Offering of Blood, and only Blood Ritual (when we called for it) to be a battery to name some of the skills.

icallshotgun · Apr 10, 2006, 09:56 PM // 21:56

what was the point of this again?

i dont know why we must criticize of people being lazy on fow runs, and not knowing how to do things the 'right way'

but why is it you go into fow again?

i go in for obsidian shards and chaos axes...and thus, i want the most effective build i can muster, to maximise the effectiveness of my time spent farming in fow, which consists (imo) a bonder, and a "librarian" as you put it, and is, in no way, 'noobish'

Carinae · Apr 10, 2006, 10:14 PM // 22:14

A Blood necro can run BR usually for emergencies in a PUG, but there are so many excellent options in Blood that a 'battery necro' is a waste. BR should really be an 'also ran' spell.

The key being that the Blood life-steals ignore armor, and things in FoW have LOTS of armor. Maybe throw Enfeeble/EB around to help people in Melee...especially squishies.

FoW is a great opportunity for Necros to run something other than SS/MM. Personally, I love running Blood/Smiting and being an Anti-Monk.

{IceFire} · Apr 10, 2006, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by icallshotgun

and thus, i want the most effective build i can muster, to maximise the effectiveness of my time spent farming in fow, which consists (imo) a bonder(snip)

erm... he just pointed out several reasons why a bonder is bad.

anyways. i usually run a w/e stance tank build in SF with glyph of elemental power + armor of earth + obsidian flesh... will that work in fow? i dont usually play tank in fow.

Ira Blinks · Apr 10, 2006, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Quote:

A type 2 stance tank who carries both Physical and Elemental Resistance can work, and I have nothing against that.

err... in case you dint know both of those skills are also stances, and also being stripped by whild blow and by no means prevent damage from hexes and mesmer spells. They do add armor against either elemental or physical damage, but reduce armor against other. But since you have already cleverly notice that those skills are in fact stances and can not be used more than one at a time, your whole argument fails.

Quote:

This goes along with my criticisms for a stance tank, as most of the important damage you will be taking in the fissure doesn't come from the attacks. A bonder spends most of his time and effort maintaining the bonds and keeping his energy up. This is a relatively ineffective use of 1 slot in the party, as the damage prevented by Life Bond is minimal, compared to all of the other damage you will be taking. You are also giving the mesmer mobs a free 100+ damage Shatter Enchant.

What about a monk with Life Barrier instead of Life Bond?
Well, that isn't a bonder monk. That's a barrier monk, and it would help to keep the names straight.

bonders use both... it's always been like that. Dont make up your own terminology. Your point is nil.

Quote:

Mistake #3: The Battery
The battery necro, or more specifically a necro with Blood is Power, isn't as big of a mistake as the previous 2. It does help with the team build to keep the monks' and damage dealers' energies up.

However, that 1 slot in the party could be used by a character that actually kills things. Also, constantly having a battery in the team breeds laziness, as people will become comfortable with it and will fail to learn about energy management.

It might be okay in a PUG setting, as bad players will need their energy replenished to keep the team going. However, you should learn not to rely on it and manage your own energy.

I dont know what kind of pugs you play with, but I havent seen straight up battery in ages. SS necro usually have BR, but I fail to see how this got anything to do with lazyness.

Quote:

Mistake #4: The Book Trick
This one is up for debate, so I will leave my thoughts out. However, please keep in mind that you won't develop your gameplay and become better if you always rely on this.

nobody makes you use it. If you dont like it - dont use it, period.
Im sick and tired of people complaining about it and still using it every time they can. Why? Because it is easier and faster to do it this way, not because it is the only way to do it.
I've done it without a book too - do you see me sreaming how uber I am? No. Because I dont care about setting records and stuff. I care about getting my shards and loot and being done with it.

Quote:

Conclusion:
Before anyone says otherwise, groups can clear the Fissure without ever needing a stance tank, bonder, battery, or librarian. In a PUG setting, a battery nec and the book trick might be acceptable, as bad players will need more failsafe methods to extend their stay, but experienced players shouldn't have to fall back on those. And under no circumstances is a stance tank or bonder ever a good idea.

I realize that a forum is a place for discussion. So, if you disagree with any of my thoughts, feel free to argue with them. But please keep it civil and present proof.

Again this is a thin line between doing stuff and braggin about it. If you want it the hard way, do it the hard way, and I'll stick with standard 5 man build, tyvm.

striderkaaru · Apr 10, 2006, 11:59 PM // 23:59

you know, sometimes i wonder if people actually take the time to read a post before replying to it with hostility. where has reading comprehension gone?

Quote:

Originally Posted by icallshotgun

what was the point of this again?

i dont know why we must criticize of people being lazy on fow runs, and not knowing how to do things the 'right way'

but why is it you go into fow again?

i go in for obsidian shards and chaos axes...and thus, i want the most effective build i can muster, to maximise the effectiveness of my time spent farming in fow, which consists (imo) a bonder, and a "librarian" as you put it, and is, in no way, 'noobish'

did you even bother to read my whole post?

first of all, i have absolutely nothing against people finding the most effective way to farm a place and utilizing that strategy. nor did i ever call such strategies "noobish." i did, however, address why the common misconceptions actually aren't the most effective builds.

if you want to go in with the most effective build and farm for shards and items, be my guest. it doesn't affect my gameplay. but when i am trying to explain why a "stance tank" and a "bonder" aren't the most effective builds, you should address those points. i don't see any arguments from you, aside from opinion, as to why a bonder or a stance tank are good ideas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

err... in case you dint know both of those skills are also stances, and also being stripped by whild blow and by no means prevent damage from hexes and mesmer spells. They do add armor against either elemental or physical damage, but reduce armor against other. But since you have already cleverly notice that those skills are in fact stances and can not be used more than one at a time, your whole argument fails.

wow. i love the part where you automatically assume i meant for the w/me to use both physical and elemental resistance at the same time. when i listed out glad's, bonetti's, and defensive/disciplined stance for the other type of stance tank, did you assume that i meant for all 3 to be used at once? probably not. then why would i say to use both resistance stances at the same time? has it occured to you that maybe a w/me will switch stances depending on what he is facing? it may not be the best build, but it's already a lot better than the other type of stancer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

bonders use both... it's always been like that. Dont make up your own terminology. Your point is nil.

please take a look at this thread:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3006771

there are a few builds there where people only list one or the other. so no, not all bonders use both. and whether you bring life barrier or not, that is up to you. but my point still stands. life bond is next to useless in fow.

and no, i am not making up my own terminology (although i do tend to do that from time to time). why would you call a monk without life bond a "bond monk?" it's like calling a ranger without barrage a "barrage ranger."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

I dont know what kind of pugs you play with, but I havent seen straight up battery in ages. SS necro usually have BR, but I fail to see how this got anything to do with lazyness.

nobody makes you use it. If you dont like it - dont use it, period.
Im sick and tired of people complaining about it and still using it every time they can. Why? Because it is easier and faster to do it this way, not because it is the only way to do it.
I've done it without a book too - do you see me sreaming how uber I am? No. Because I dont care about setting records and stuff. I care about getting my shards and loot and being done with it.

the battery and book points are definitely up for argument, as those are controversial issues. you have your own opinions, and i have mine. my main issues here were to bring up the point of the stance tank and the bonder. the other two are extras.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

Again this is a thin line between doing stuff and braggin about it. If you want it the hard way, do it the hard way, and I'll stick with standard 5 man build, tyvm.

if you want to stick to your "standard" 5 man build, be my guest. but please realize the inherent flaws in your build. i'm not telling you to stop farming. i'm telling you that the "standard" build you are using has flaws in it. you can't just take a sorrow's furnace build and go to fissure with it. they are different areas with different opponents.

zerulus · Apr 11, 2006, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by striderkaaru

Let's take a good look at the skill descriptions. Bonetti's and Defensive only block/evade melee attacks,

They both work against arrows as well.

striderkaaru · Apr 11, 2006, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by zerulus

They both work against arrows as well.

is that so? hmm, i may stand corrected on that, but the point still remains. stances still only block attacks.

anyway, i just realized that i skipped over the good replies, so i'll address them now.

@blade rez
i'm glad that you don't like to use the book, but i also hope that you looked over my points regarding the stance tank.

with regards to obsidian flesh, it's a decent skill to use in fow. it provides additional armor and spell immunity. however, keep in mind that it doesn't work like spellbreaker. with sb, you'll hear the *click click* noise of spells failing, but with obs flesh, they won't even bother trying to cast. they don't waste any of their time or energy trying to cast spells. this means that they're saving it all for your allies, which is something you usually don't want to do.

i have seen it used, however, and i don't think there is anything wrong with you trying it.

@icefire
see above comment regarding obsidian flesh. armor of earth is also a pretty good armor buff, but you do need to keep in mind that the mesmers will shatter it. know when to put it on and when not to.

pugs are sort of tricky, because you never know if they will allow you to aggro properly or not. with a good group, the dolyak sig + watch yourself combo is one of the best buffs to use on a tank.

carinae and racthoh also bring up good points regarding the battery, and i guess i should clarify. i wouldn't really consider a necro with br for emergency purposes a battery. he/she has his own build and has one skill for emergencies. my post was more referring to the necros with bip and who devote their whole builds to juice others.

before any more criticism roll in, please realize that i'm not calling people out for being lazy or for book-farming fow. if you want to use the most effective build to farm fow, be my guest. but i hope you realize that i am actually TRYING TO HELP YOU make those builds actually effective.

Kybos · Apr 11, 2006, 01:29 AM // 01:29

FYI - Phys Resist + Dolyak or Ele Resist + Dolyak = GG

{IceFire} · Apr 11, 2006, 02:21 AM // 02:21

phys + ele resist dont stack...

Kybos · Apr 11, 2006, 02:24 AM // 02:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by {IceFire}

phys + ele resist dont stack...

Hence the OR in my statement

icemonkey · Apr 11, 2006, 02:59 AM // 02:59

I would like to direct all to a positive action on this problem(which i will be first to admit is rampant)my thread encyclopedia of FoW builds. There I will posts builds for 'team role characters' that are very effective and do not suffer from teh shortcommins mentioned.

any ways, I think the stance tank can be good when using stuff like watch yourself, dolyak and healing hands, that is a tank that needs little monk support.
also as far as bonder goes, Barrier is great. I often times barrier for FoW and in general one WoH monk can keep everybody happy and fine as long as they don't do anything retarded. Life bond however is complete garbage, and anyone who puts bond and barrier on people is a moron(for FoW that is)
and shatter enchantement, yeha it happens reapply bond and move on its fine WoH will mop that crap up.

oh BTW tthe htread is in the campfire part of the forums. plz visit

tuna-fish_sushi · Apr 11, 2006, 03:39 AM // 03:39

I saw a perfectly fine stance tank using Mark of Protection and as soon as his health started to fall (which was very slowly) he used MoP and he was instantly healed to full which worked great.

I agree with the bonder/barrier argument... I played bonder/barrier in a fow barrage group we got to forgemaster and i felt as if i was wasting a slot.
a) There health was still going down, thank god we had a very good healer.
b) As soon as you get book your pretty much useless all you have to bond is the stance tank who gets stripped instantly...
c) Everyone yells at me that im doing a bad job when they get stripped and expect me to check my enchants everytime, instead of just telling me that their bond wore off.

As for the book trick I really dont see a problem. They put the book their for a reason and give it the power to hold all the aggro. If you want to do FOW for the spoils and to get to forgemaster Its a great idea to give this book to the tank. If your up for a challenge then you dont have to use it. This shouldnt even be an argument.

Racthoh · Apr 11, 2006, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

nobody makes you use it. If you dont like it - dont use it, period.
Im sick and tired of people complaining about it and still using it every time they can. Why? Because it is easier and faster to do it this way, not because it is the only way to do it.
I've done it without a book too - do you see me sreaming how uber I am? No. Because I dont care about setting records and stuff. I care about getting my shards and loot and being done with it.

Everytime my monk has pugged in the last few months or so, I've dropped the group before the forge because they're using the book. Even when I specficially 'advertise' myself as a monk looking for a group not using the book, and I ask when I get into the group if we're using it.

If I wanted loot, I would solo. Why go into FoW and split it 8 ways, when I could farm the gold for a shard in a fraction of the time, without the hassle of favor and depending on players not leaving. Am I going to wait around for 7 other like minded players? Hardly, I want to play the game. Do I play with my guildmates often? Of course, but I hardly improve my playing as a monk when I'm with people I know and trust to follow basic orders. Give me the complete bedlam of a random PUG, and the experience becomes more satisfying.

Using the book is one way of playing FoW, but it is slowly becoming everyone's way of playing. It is becoming difficult for me to play the way I think the game is intended. When I go in, I go in to have fun not heal one guy while he holds a book or the guy holding the book instead of using the weapon/shield I spent a lot of platinum on. Very boring, and I have paint I would rather watch dry.

I am merely putting my two cents into that argument, let's not turn the thread into a discussion just about the book. And yes, those stances include ranged attacks (I use them all the time against the grawls outside of port sledge).

Regarding the stance tank, +AL is far better and I've listed reasons time and time again. Dolyak Signet has no counters in FoW, and Watch Yourself can only be stopped by Sympathetic Visage. The only damage I fear is degeneration, enchantment removal, and if I'm dumb enough to attack when hexed with that build.

Avarre · Apr 11, 2006, 11:47 AM // 11:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

Again this is a thin line between doing stuff and braggin about it. If you want it the hard way, do it the hard way, and I'll stick with standard 5 man build, tyvm.

If you know FoW, following strider's advice IS the easy way. The standard 5 man build is riddled with inefficiencies and redundancies so that people that have little skill in PvE can run it effectively, much like the rush of IWAY PuGging in PvP.

No more comments here, except that I agree with strider and racthoh...

Pi_Numurian · Apr 11, 2006, 12:03 PM // 12:03

I agree

Ira Blinks · Apr 11, 2006, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by striderkaaru

wow. i love the part where you automatically assume i meant for the w/me to use both physical and elemental resistance at the same time. when i listed out glad's, bonetti's, and defensive/disciplined stance for the other type of stance tank, did you assume that i meant for all 3 to be used at once? probably not. then why would i say to use both resistance stances at the same time? has it occured to you that maybe a w/me will switch stances depending on what he is facing? it may not be the best build, but it's already a lot better than the other type of stancer.

I did not assume anything. I simply pointed out that mesmer stances only protect you from one source of damage leaving you vulnerable to some other source of damage same way as warrior stanses do. You have failed to prove that tactics is any worse than inspiration in this regard, yet continue to address using tactics as mistake. Please stop addressing your own preference as common sense.

Quote:

please take a look at this thread:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3006771

there are a few builds there where people only list one or the other. so no, not all bonders use both. and whether you bring life barrier or not, that is up to you. but my point still stands. life bond is next to useless in fow.

and no, i am not making up my own terminology (although i do tend to do that from time to time). why would you call a monk without life bond a "bond monk?" it's like calling a ranger without barrage a "barrage ranger."

oh please... you whole point was based on "noobs from SF", and those "noobs" _do_ use both.

Quote:

the battery and book points are definitely up for argument, as those are controversial issues. you have your own opinions, and i have mine. my main issues here were to bring up the point of the stance tank and the bonder. the other two are extras.

By saying "extra" you already saying that you have a valid point about battery and book. I have yet to see it.

Quote:

if you want to stick to your "standard" 5 man build, be my guest. but please realize the inherent flaws in your build. i'm not telling you to stop farming. i'm telling you that the "standard" build you are using has flaws in it. you can't just take a sorrow's furnace build and go to fissure with it. they are different areas with different opponents.

now it is you assuming that "my" 5man fow build is the same as 5man SF build. And then you assuming it has flaws in it while having a no way of knowing it. Im sorry, you talking bull right now. If "my" build has so many horribly flaws in it, how come it flyes thru the whole place like nothing?
Dont insult something you dont even know. "My" build _works_. It works fast and easy (unless someone drops ofcourse).
And "my" build isnt really mine. I can only guess that you play on american server, because anything but ballanced 8 man pve group is very rare thing there.

Conclusion:
As many people you know _something_, but you think you know _everything_ and have a right to teach people "the only true way of fow". You just assume that people around are not openminded because they do things different way, while totaly failing to justify why things they do are in fact wrong.