Curse

SeanHeartstone · May 11, 2006, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Wow look what I started.

There are a few things I want to comment on because I think maybe I didn't before.

Firstly, thank you to those who had nice things to say. It's good to know not everyone hates us.

Secondly, so many of you make the mistake of saying things like "You control Cavalon therefore you have to support the system!" This is what is classically know as an ad hominem attack. Google it if you don't know. It means basically that you're attacking me and not the argument I'm giving. Tell me why the alliance/elite mission is bad on the basis of argument not rhetoric.

Thirdly, Kcp raises a very good point about how after you complete the game there aren't any missions like FoW, UW, sorrow's furnace, Tombs to do. Personally I have had great fun doing these and it is a shame that there isn't a similar one available atm. I suspect though that with the next major update ANET will add something just like they have done in the past. And even if this is true, that doesn't mean that the elite missions should be removed, just that they should add a new UW or FoW. I also found it kind of funny to say that ANET will lose players like you if they don't add it when you've already paid your $50.

Lastly, regarding the argument that this favors the PvE player over PvP player all I have to say is: What? Did you happen to forget the world championships? Huge cash prizes?

NoHomework · May 11, 2006, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by striderkaaru

in order to keep control dynamic, it should be based on the weekly or monthly record. that way, an alliance will need to prove that they can hold it consistently and that it wasn't just luck. this will also give others a chance should the holding alliance become inactive.

that's how the elite missions should be held.

this guy has the solution. when i heard about fighting to control towns in factions i thought it would be like favor... you PvP to earn temporary and exclusive access to the area. i'll tell you how it should have been done right now, earning favor in HA for guilds that want access to FoW and UW, and fighting GvG for alliance-specific 'favor' for access to elite missions. i don't have a problem with exclusivity at all, in fact i think it would be nice to have more rare items than green ones come from the elite missions, but scoring points by doing FTD quests and simply killing NPCs has got to be the most retarded idea i have ever heard of in my entire life.

if ANETs intent was to make an outlet for PvE players (a totally acceptable idea) then strider had it right. make access to the elite mission based on a high score in a storyline related challenge mission where players earn points by killing high numbers of enemies in a short amount of time, getting bonus points for things like: extremely large damage packets, for dropping enemies from 100 percent to 0 percent life in less than 1 second, suffering no friendly casualties, or other similar PvE goals. having 8 guild or alliance mates design builds and strategies specific to complex goals like these is what skill is.

but honestly... i don't understand how ANET could not have had the foresight to see how much this was going to suck. do they expect us to just keep forming bigger and bigger alliances until there are like 5 that can realistically compete for control????

really... it can't go on like this lol. access to the elite missions needs to go to the guilds and alliances with the best understanding of their characters. this can't be measured in any way but PERFORMANCE. not experience points accumulated, map area explored, number of npcs killed, elites captured, rank, RA matches won, there is only one measure

while i'm thinking about it maybe they could change the point bonuses on the hypothetical challenge mission every month so that maybe alliances with a bunch of good monks can get a high score by suffering 0 casualties for 15 minutes or something, and then next month the same guild cant get a high score because the bonus points are awarded by damage dealt per second, something another guild is better at.

Kcp · May 11, 2006, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Pissing off your customers on a "franchise" game means lost revenue. Ya they already got our cash, 50$'s is nothing, I've spent multiple times more then that on a round of drinks at the bar or taking a date out to dinner and never even missed it the following morning.

When you're talking multiple parts to a game as is intended with GW's, those multiple 50$'s per lost/unsatisfied customer will put a serious dent into their profits.

However I'll be nice and add my congratulations that you finally found a sense of accomplishment. I'm glad my 50 bucks helped you out in that respect......I wonder if I can write that off on my taxes.

Have fun and enjoy yourselves with your leeter then leet crews.

vandree · May 11, 2006, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Wow Good work Sean... Sticking your neck out like that!! The swimming pool is filled with sharks now a days on the forums

No farming factions DOESNT take skill, But with that being said I would just like to point out that winning and controlling a town like cavalon takes ALOT more then FARMING. We as an alliance have come togeather and focused our playing time (Believe it or not.. not all of us are 16 hour a day GW players) on helping others reach a point in the game where they can contruibe to the alliance THIS takes TEAMWORK. We as a group are commited to "farming" a certain of faction to retain our position THIS takes DEDICATION. I am glad that A-Net has decide to reward Alliances for both teamwork and dedication. Iam proud of what we accomplished as a guild and as an alliance and I hope that the many others that are putting as much teamwork and dedication into capturing a capital have fun along the way becouse when you first capture a capital and first step into an elite mission you really feel a sence of accomplishment as a GROUP.

just my 2 cents

good hunting

NoHomework · May 11, 2006, 03:48 AM // 03:48

use strider and my idea of basing it on a challenge mission. you guys can have your feeling of accomplishment and dedication AND actually have displayed a good understanding of your character compared to anybody else trying to capture the town.

Banebow · May 11, 2006, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeanHeartstone

Tell me why the alliance/elite mission is bad on the basis of argument not rhetoric.

I did. You have at best 8% of the player base who gets any sort of benefit from the setup, and of those 8%, 0.2% are happy, and the other 7.8% would get more benefit if the elite missions were open to all. So my argument is that making 0.2% of the player base happy is not good enough for things to remain the way they are now. And no, that 0.2% is not any more important than the other 98.8% of the player base.

Illusion Air · May 11, 2006, 04:45 AM // 04:45

yeah real team work and accomplishment get as many people to breaker hollow as you can and start supply run and start recruiting as many as you can. This system is base on massive player not skill base player.

SeanHeartstone · May 11, 2006, 06:36 AM // 06:36

Banebow, I should have replied earlier but it got kind of lost. Anyway, I take it that your reasoning is off. I think there are two ways a game developer can go: I will make the game such that everyone will have a good time, or I will reward certain players more than others on the basis of something (i.e. skill or farming). For example, only those PvP players who are good enough to beat a few teams can get to see the HoH. This harms all those players who aren't skilled enough to see the HoH. But having the system as it is can still be a good system because the overall happiness of the group is higher. The fact is that with any system based on competition someone is going to lose. I think a point brought up earlier was kind of telling that those who can't have something want it more because of it. It's the same way with the HoH/elite missions: if you have to struggle to attain it, then it becomes all the more satisfying when you get it.

I also question the numbers you threw out. You first of all say that of the 8% in the alliances, only the 0.2% who control the missions are benefited more by the system. But, as I said before, the enrichment of the community that comes as a result of having an incentive to be the best makes it better. Also, you assume that the 8% who benefit from the system is less than the 65% who don't get to play the mission. But I argue the quantity of benefit that those 8% recieve far outweighs whatever benefit the 65% would get from having one more mission. I mean honestly if there were 14 missions instead of 13 do you feel that your gaming experience would be that significantly improved? And for me and I'm sure many other alliance members my experience has been vastly improved by the system as it is.

SeanHeartstone · May 11, 2006, 06:53 AM // 06:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kcp

Pissing off your customers on a "franchise" game means lost revenue. Ya they already got our cash, 50$'s is nothing, I've spent multiple times more then that on a round of drinks at the bar or taking a date out to dinner and never even missed it the following morning.

When you're talking multiple parts to a game as is intended with GW's, those multiple 50$'s per lost/unsatisfied customer will put a serious dent into their profits.

However I'll be nice and add my congratulations that you finally found a sense of accomplishment. I'm glad my 50 bucks helped you out in that respect......I wonder if I can write that off on my taxes.

Have fun and enjoy yourselves with your leeter then leet crews.

Kcp, I don't appreciate how you refer to one small off-hand remark I made and respond only to that. But, you're most likely right that if everyone felt the same way as you to write several negative comments on a board devoted to the game then they would probably not make as much money. In fact, at least one review of the game marked it down for this. But the whole point of my posts has been to show that I think the game is better because of the elite missions.

Dove_Song · May 11, 2006, 08:08 AM // 08:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banebow

You're right though. We should lock out 99.9% of the player base from these missions at all times, and force farming on the players with access. It is an ideal setup.

You read my mind....

I can agree that they should reward those allaince who have enough diplomacy and organazation to make a great accomplishment like this ..I mean it truly is a GREAT accomplishment....but isn't there a better way?

Joining a faction farm in order to get int these mission does not seem like any fun at all ><....

Luckily most of the members of these aliances I have run into have been more than happy to take you along...very friendly most of them.

Pyrea · May 11, 2006, 08:14 AM // 08:14

When I first read about this before Factions was released I imagined that holding towns meant fighting against the opposing party i.e. Luxons (I'm Kurzick

) which then let you capture towns on the map which gave you access to these missions.

In other words it sounded fair, and would be available to all on the winning side (similar to holding HoH and favour for your continent)

This would then come down to skill and teamwork as you would undoubtedly be faced with a great challenge.

After Factions was released I came to realize that my "vision" of what Anet suggested went completely down the toilet.

I am in a small guild (about 15 members) where all of us know each other and can rely on each other. We don't farm faction all day. We do a bit, but no way enough to even dream of holding any city, think House Zu Heltzer is at 4mill now. Personally, I am taking my chars through the game and because I enjoy earning the title of Cartographer it takes me more time to get through the whole game.

I've seen nearly all there is in Factions, going round 3rd time now. Still want to get into Jade Quarry, it's sad that every time I go there I see maybe 1 or 2 people who disappear quickly enough, and of course these so killed Elite missions.

Also, slightly off the subject, I was very disappointed with the "choices" of weapons end-game. All I want is a nice green sword. And what's available end-game: vamp this, vamp that, vamp someting else. What is this with vamp weapons. Makes me think ANet are some kind of vampires. I mean sure there good for PvP but I don't PvP that much. I would have liked if you get to "craft" your own weapon at the end of game, rather than dumping vamp crap all over the place. Yeah sure I could go buy a weapon from someone selling but it would have been so much nicer if I could make my own end-game item which then would have suited my needs.

It seems to me that a whole different ANet is behind Factions. The team behind Prophecies did a great job. Maybe the Factions team could sit down with the Prophecies team and get the low down because in the state of Factions at the mo it's well .... not going to flame as it's got some wonderful aspects but really you should be ashamed of yourselves...

Anyway enough ranting gotta move my necros ass....

fb2000 · May 11, 2006, 09:21 AM // 09:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dove_Song

Joining a faction farm in order to get int these mission does not seem like any fun at all ><.....

it is actually

.i do hope we manage to buckle up and get HzH back, tho many players of xoo are stick to missioning right now (why do they want to kill shiro oO Oo

).

the real reason all of you are angry, is becauseFactions PvE storyline sucks... 13mission, only 9 needed to beat shiro..there even ARE NOT ANYsecondary objectives,making the 25 or so mission of Tyria compare to about 45 of the missions in cantha. the plot of Factions felt watered down to me, but factions, well, youbarely feel any plot at all.

it would all be fine if there WERE areas like Fow/uw/sf/tombs, as this isthe main reason a lot of PvE players kept on playing. i myself have been playing gw for just 2 months, factions for like 15 days, and im already bored with it.. if there wasnt even this elite mission thingie and the alliance stuff with luxon vs kurzick alliance battles, id be gone back to Unreal Tournament (a game i dare call requiring skill, gw is not so imho..)

as for those of you saying anet got our money already, if this continues, there will be very fewer sales of Chapter 3 when it comes around.. now thats a serious loss in my humble opinion

just my thoughts

PS and please stop picking up on the term Elite, itsgetting really common

Raulence · May 11, 2006, 10:36 AM // 10:36

I have been reading about elite missions for days. If only 0.1% players can play the elite mission, guild wars should not be called as MMORPG.

I personally think Anet should change the entrance requirement. SInce you and your guild have to choose one side between Kur and Lux. Why not changing the entrance to these two elite missions like UW and FoW. Instead of holding favor by America or Euro, Kur or Lux alliance could hold the favor for each elite mission entrance by GvG or PvP.

In this case, most players can do the elite mission and enjoy more about the game

Aërendil · May 11, 2006, 10:47 AM // 10:47

fb2000, no that is not the real reason. The reason is that 99% are being excluded from a part of game and this is not why i paid for my collectors edition. My guild has not made a alliance with other and alone i can't farm 4million factions or more. And why should we stop using the term elite? They are called Elite mission, right? for the uber elite in aNet eyes, who can only do one quest a zillion times over and over, and when they come in the mission they all die..

I agree 100% with you Raulence, i'm in for such a proposel.

johanL · May 11, 2006, 11:53 AM // 11:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raulence

I have been reading about elite missions for days. If only 0.1% players can play the elite mission, guild wars should not be called as MMORPG.

I personally think Anet should change the entrance requirement. SInce you and your guild have to choose one side between Kur and Lux. Why not changing the entrance to these two elite missions like UW and FoW. Instead of holding favor by America or Euro, Kur or Lux alliance could hold the favor for each elite mission entrance by GvG or PvP.

In this case, most players can do the elite mission and enjoy more about the game

this is the only and fair solution to this matter to me.
im in a small guild myself...and i don't waste my time farming factions the whole day...a couple of faction here and then. Its unfair to block everyone out this way..and keep all the good stuff for the so called "elites" wich in my eyes are only people who play this game 24/7 non-stop.
You should have access to those things, not meaning you could complete it easily...same as HoH, you have access but it doesn't mean you are able to win it.
Make it something Favor style like Uw and Fow so that all people can enjoy the game the PAYED for.
Imo people who want to keep these elite missions only available to the 24/7 non stop faction farmers are retarded and selfish!

trevok · May 11, 2006, 02:02 PM // 14:02

I find it interesting that the same people who complain about not being able to access the Elite missions and that if they pay $50 they should be able to access everything, are the same ones who purposely don't play a huge part of the game, PvP. If you were really concerned about getting your money's worth, why do you intentionally avoid such a huge and crucial aspect of the game? Shouldn't you be playing every aspect of PvP as well? Bit of a contradiction there.

Zilm · May 11, 2006, 02:03 PM // 14:03

I belong to Knights and Heros [Beer] guild Alliance and we currently hold a town.

The idea of farming faction to hold these towns is just silly. Faction farming must be removed. Once a faction reward quest is completed it should not be repeatable. Farming as stated before proves nothing of a guild alliance other than the sheer number of people they have farming faction.

Lots of ideas previously posted may be utilized to correct the current problem. But ANET, something should be done and soon!

johanL · May 11, 2006, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by trevok

I find it interesting that the same people who complain about not being able to access the Elite missions and that if they pay $50 they should be able to access everything, are the same ones who purposely don't play a huge part of the game, PvP. If you were really concerned about getting your money's worth, why do you intentionally avoid such a huge and crucial aspect of the game? Shouldn't you be playing every aspect of PvP as well? Bit of a contradiction there.

maybe because pvp doesn't interrest me? ever think of that?

SirShadowrunner · May 11, 2006, 03:53 PM // 15:53

I finally got a toon to the House zu Heltzer, and I see this guy (faction reward)
I can get an amber chunk for 1k faction, I look down to trade window and see
WTB amber 3k everywhere.......

Then it hits me why nobody is putting any faction into the alliance, except
our leader and me, they are trading for amber to get new armor.
I mentioned this to the leader last night and I have yet to see what is going
to come of it, the guild had been doing alot of 12v12 lately and the alliance
fation was not going up much, well I have found out why.

Now I believe nobody is going to give faction to the alliance because you
are throwing it away, why donate to your small alliance for nothing ?????
Well at least we are all going to look really good, and I will probably own
every green weapon in the game in the next month or so.

I do think this was intended, we now have alot more armor choices, and
8 different professions to try, so you need some kind of way to get them
there pimp-daddy armor........

Still can't believe this...........

Banebow · May 11, 2006, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeanHeartstone

For example, only those PvP players who are good enough to beat a few teams can get to see the HoH. This harms all those players who aren't skilled enough to see the HoH. But having the system as it is can still be a good system because the overall happiness of the group is higher. The fact is that with any system based on competition someone is going to lose. I think a point brought up earlier was kind of telling that those who can't have something want it more because of it. It's the same way with the HoH/elite missions: if you have to struggle to attain it, then it becomes all the more satisfying when you get it.

It is not much like the HoH. Whereas I could get 7 other players, go in, and improve my chances of winning with each run as well as improving my skills at PvP (though it is only HoH), no such thing exists here. Since I don't happen to know 999 other players interisted in farming, I am locked out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeanHeartstone

I also question the numbers you threw out. You first of all say that of the 8% in the alliances, only the 0.2% who control the missions are benefited more by the system. But, as I said before, the enrichment of the community that comes as a result of having an incentive to be the best makes it better.

You're right, the numbers are wrong. Since most of the alliances have less then 1,000 people they should be smaller. And yes, the 0.2% benefit more than the other 7.8%. Why? Because the 0.2% and the 8% get the same benefits from having elite missions this way (drive to work together etc) but the 0.2% also get access.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeanHeartstone

Also, you assume that the 8% who benefit from the system is less than the 65% who don't get to play the mission. But I argue the quantity of benefit that those 8% recieve far outweighs whatever benefit the 65% would get from having one more mission.

It's like tariffs on imported goods. A huge portion of the population pays a small bit for a large benefit to a few. It is a bad idea in economics, and it is a bad idea here. The difference is, here you have people standing up for themselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeanHeartstone

I mean honestly if there were 14 missions instead of 13 do you feel that your gaming experience would be that significantly improved? And for me and I'm sure many other alliance members my experience has been vastly improved by the system as it is.

I'd say that there is a big difference between locking me out of "any old mission" and locking me out of "the hardest PvE mission in the game." Now obviously, making the elite missions accessible to anyone without replacing them with something for people to strive for in the control of a town would never work. Huge numbers of ideas abound for a different reward, one possibility would be a weapon crafter who makes perfect weapons/offhands with rare skin X. Being able to craft your own perfect celestial sword is going to be a heck of a lot cheaper than buying one, and don't doubt that you couldn't make a pretty penny crafting and selling them. That's something to strive for, and unlike the current setup, does not cost players without the capital a good portion of the PvE content. A huge number of other ideas (and usually better than this example) exist, just read a few of the threads about it.