Curse

Maria The Princess · Jun 22, 2006, 05:48 AM // 05:48

so i have tried the Deep (elite mission in Cavalon) for the first time. actually that try draged 10 other ones after itself...

the party number is 12. so i fugured, "ok fine, must be realy hard then"

but no! the hard part was finding a group. when i started LFG as Traper, nobody would invite me so i started a group of my own, after reading some feedback on that mision, ok 1 monk and 1 tank per room, trapers, BiP, nukers... sounds easy. the problem was when we were looking for 3 people, and people get impatient and quit the group because somebody spams " GLF (xxx) we are 11/12"

fine by me, i understand. when we FINALLY have a 12 people group with all the required classes, we decide on Doors division and are ready and head in. by the time we decide, someone gets bored and leaves. i think "ok whatever he must be some 10 year old kid" so we are back to GLF status.

finally we have 12 people, got organised, and are going in the mission. as soon as we are inside its like all the "organisation" we decided on has disapeared, and people are randomly spaming "ok im goin here, or maby door 2?"

by the time we finaly re-organise the kids who were probably not even reading the chat and just said "yes ok i will", the monks are frustrated with the exhastion, and when we actually get in the doors, we all have to wait a while for monks to regen. yes a while! but the wariors are impatient and just jump in, forget energy, traps, enchants.... who cares they are bored.

now, i know you will reply "get an experienced party" but i spent the whole day (realy) trying to find 1, and with every party it is the same story, if im the leader or not, same thing with diffrent people... it was very frustrating.

guildgroups... yah soounds good but even if we have alot of people online, we never have 12 ppl who want to go for elites, maby 3-4 max, and this is not enouth for an organised team.

so, my point is: why did anet decide to make 12 ppl parties?..... I think it was a very stupid idea. already 8 ppl ware sometimes hard to organise, but 12 ppl! yes a few listen and follow instructions, but so many of them just want to go in.... i dont mind the missions being hard, especialy if we end up 3 people per room anyways, whats the point if we still end up in small grous?

strategy? ok fine. but 12 ppl are VERY hard to organise and get to listen. it reminded me when i was working at a day camp for kids, how hard was it to get them to listen and follow.

so is it something wrong with me or is it something wrong with the idea of this mission? becasue seriously, i dont believe 99% of players there are idiots, but with having a 12 ppl party you risk to have TOO MANY OF THEM to make smart people either rage quit or stay but fail anyways

Grasping Darkness · Jun 22, 2006, 06:13 AM // 06:13

i did that mission a few times a while back and found its rather easy with a good team. for some reason after the slower players get there. not saying everyone that arrives later is incompetent,some people just dont play as much, but when all the fools get in it goes to crap so ive given up there. a guild group with good communication is the only team i would go with again on that mission

Sagius Truthbarron · Jun 22, 2006, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Never let other people decide what they are going to do. Tell them were to go for the start. Go to the international districts and oragnize people into groups of 3s according to where they are going, and in order of rooms.

Example:
(First door)
Warrior(1)
Nuker (2)
Monk(3)
(Second door; doesn't fight and waits to be rescued)
Ritualist(4)
Traper(5)
SS Necro(6)
(Third door)
Warrior(7)
Barrage Ranger(8)
Monk(9)
(Fourth door)
Warrior(10)
Nuker(11)
Monk(12)

If you organize the group before hand, and don't give people time to moan, you'll do alot better.

Also, check their builds. Make sure they aren't running Mending wamos with Heal Party.

Ask them what type of armor they are wearing, gear, ect. This will help to seperate the wheat from the... noobs.

ID_Roto · Jun 22, 2006, 07:06 AM // 07:06

So... started with the thought of being hard... then goes into the PuG groups being really .... yea... Probably a dumb answer to this problem but it's the only one I can give you : Guild Group. (Of course sometimes THEY don't do real well but still way better than the alternative).

ange1 · Jun 22, 2006, 10:54 AM // 10:54

sorry but barrage ranger is bad for deep

Farmer · Jun 22, 2006, 10:59 AM // 10:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maria The Princess

so is it something wrong with me or is it something wrong with the idea of this mission?

Hmm....................so many people beat the mission and Kanaxai's Axe nowaday is...........yeah, i think there's something wrong with you.

Aera · Jun 22, 2006, 11:05 AM // 11:05

USE VENTRILO<<<
With voicecommunication, things are a LOT more organised and people will feel that too, making them want to ragequit less. If you don't have it, download it ( www.ventrilo.com ) and take a public channel on GWVent ( server.gw-vent.com port 1337 ). By the way, trappers are definately needed in The Deep so you've just been unlucky there.

TRicciardi · Jun 22, 2006, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by ange1

sorry but barrage ranger is bad for deep

yep.. specially because of all the onis.. when hited they teleport and make meat walls useless..
I prefer to take a bip..

to the OP, i allways think that getting a good party is the elite part of that mission :s.. but the mission itself can be pretty hard if the party has no idea what they are doing.. specially in scorpion and fear room..

CyberNigma · Jun 22, 2006, 11:20 AM // 11:20

well to follow up with your point about not having enough people in your guild at one time to do the elites, it should be pointed out that the elites are designed for entry by the 'alliance' that holds the towns. you might want to think about forming an alliance with several other guilds so that you will more than likely have people wanting to do the elites with you. you all can also set aside specific alliance days/times for getting a group together to do the elites.

demon dantes · Jun 22, 2006, 12:21 PM // 12:21

I have been in a couple groups that started out great and turned to ....well you know. The one peice of advice that i can give you is to learn what each room does,ask the people you invite what there builds are,and last but not least if the guy has a childish name don t invite him. It is a fair bit of time to waste on something for nothing as well find people you know or have met in other groups and just party with them.

Vahn Roi · Jun 22, 2006, 02:21 PM // 14:21

This is why elite missions rarely work out as they should. I'm still waiting to do an all Guildie group for one of these elite missions.

Vincaro · Jun 22, 2006, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grasping Darkness

i did that mission a few times a while back and found its rather easy with a good team. for some reason after the slower players get there. not saying everyone that arrives later is incompetent

Like me... my problem is I'm working on 7 characters at once over 2 accounts... and those are just the new characters that haven't beaten either campain and I want to start 1 more when they add the option to buy a character slot... I have Cronic character creation disorder...

CHUIU · Jun 22, 2006, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Try this instead:

(First door)
Warrior(1)
Nuker (2)
Monk(3)
(Second door; doesn't fight and waits to be rescued)
Monk(4)
Bip Necro(5)
Nuker(6)
(Third door)
Warrior(7)
Nuker(8)
Monk(9)
(Fourth door)
Warrior(10)
SS Necro(11)
Monk(12)

I've done about 20 runs with that exact setup and it works faster than all others. You can do a deep run in 1-1.5 hours easily with that. Trappers slow things down because of AOE (nukers shouldn't be using AOE other than meteor shower). Ritualist is nice but not needed for 90% of the run, you can bring one if you want though (in place of a nuker or monk).

Kalki · Jun 22, 2006, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Nothing is wrong with your luck. Nothing is wrong with 12 person groups or the Deep. You need to identify higher quality PuG's though, and group leader's with their heads on straight. If people are leaving it's usually to join another group that's advertising they "just need <insert class> and we go", and if they don't respect the current leader's ability to form the group. You need to be loyal and patient once you find a good group and leader.

Last night I joined 2 PuG's for the Deep. The first group I was in took about 45 minutes to form the group, criticize each others builds, get people on Vent, etc.... We also had a failed attempt that took about 10 minutes. Once we got rolling it only took 2 hours to complete. The second group I joined was adverstised as "experienced players only", and I joined because it was getting late, and I was hoping for less forming time. This group still took 45 minutes of criticizing each others builds, dealing with leavers before we started, some people had to download Ventrilo, etc..., but only took 1 hour and 45 minutes to complete. I've also been in groups in the past that took around 5 hours. I was in one group that fought the final boss for 2 hours, and ultimately failed. When you get in bad groups just remember to yell at your computer WITHOUT holding down the transmit key.

Once you get more experience the time forming a group doesn't feel so long, cause you'll have confidence in your build, your leader, and what you need to do.

CHUIU · Jun 22, 2006, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Yeah the good groups tend to take a while to setup because the leaders want to double check peoples skills to make sure they work down there while the noobs want to bring their own special build. And vent/ts is a must because its much easier to tell people what to do instead of having to type everything out and re-type everything out and cuss at the persont then re-re-re-re-re-type everything out. Besides that it makes the run more fun if you do get a good group.

Heres a tip for warriors: You're a wall, or should be a wall, 95% of the time. You should not attack unless you need to knock something down (Aspects or Kanaxai himself). And it would be a great idea to bring assassin secondary to use the skill Recall. So you can aggro stuff and recall back if you're in trouble or to aggro all the nightmares into a corner when the team has double-kd'ed Kanaxai at the end to keep aggro away.

Oh ... and don't attack the Oni. Just nuke them.

Maria The Princess · Jun 23, 2006, 06:00 AM // 06:00

well, thnks for rplys

the problem is that there were too many players to find and to make sure they have a "normal" build. the problem also was that there is no way i can use TS or vent becuse my PC simply freeses and i need to force a restart (yes yes im getting a new pc soon), so it seems impossible to organise the people because even after saying "yes im goin to room 3" they seem to just start doinm random stuff.

i tried again, using the build mentioned above by Chuiu

First door)
Warrior(1)
Nuker (2)
Monk(3)
(Second door; doesn't fight and waits to be rescued)
Monk(4)
Bip Necro(5)
Nuker(6)
(Third door)
Warrior(7)
Nuker(8)
Monk(9)
(Fourth door)
Warrior(10)
SS Necro(11)
Monk(12)

and the ether the guys from second door started attaking, or somehow one door would end up with a monk and 2 nukers... and the warior is still standing around picking in his nose next to door 4.... i mean, ya we all decide on it, agree, and then as soon as timer runs out we all become a bunch of cocroaches that are just chaoticly run around..... and no i wasnt the leader, and at first we did seem pretty organised... but oh well!

Amity and Truth · Jun 23, 2006, 09:52 AM // 09:52

What really, really annoys me down there is that people have read up some of the guides and now think you can only do this mission with the stereotypical 0815 Groupbuild. The amount of abuse i've gotten for the simple try of getting a different than standard group working is enough to have given up on those missions completely.
I honestly can't stand boredom rangers, uhh sorry, trappers. Sure they're an asset to the team if they're combat trapping but what really annoys me are the trappers that go by the usual underworld trapping style (set up spirits and spam away, then lure). This is just utter boredom. Sure it gets the things done one day but i simply don't understand why 9 people who could deal with the enemies easily in the time have to wait for the trappers to just sit there and spam their traps. The Elitemissions are easy enough, damnit (with the exception of the scorpion aspect which i just hate, reaaaally hate)

But well, try to form a party without trappers. Go and try. And keep your screenshot button ready for there will be lots of swearing and namecalling.

Fates · Jun 23, 2006, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Honestly, I think most good groups have figured out that you really dont need trappers. What you really need is 3 competent warriors to block while nukers and ss do their business.

Sir Mad · Jun 24, 2006, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fates Monk

Honestly, I think most good groups have figured out that you really dont need trappers. What you really need is 3 competent warriors to block while nukers and ss do their business.

Actually it prolly sounds arrogant, sorry about that, but I've never partied with a competent trapper in the Deep so far. That's why I use (well used, I havent been there for a while) to go with my ranger rather than my monk for example. Trapping in the Deep (except in the 3 people rooms) implies to trap in melees. Even when someone advertise as an "experienced" trapper, most of the time he has experience in UW, but is clueless in the Deep. The 2 things atre completly different. No monster will interupt you in UW. You dont even need anything to keep you alive since you trap out of range, and when the mobs reach your place, they're dead.

In the Deep, you have to trap in the middle of packs of onis or seafood. You cant trap behind: the warriors will NEVER step back to lure the mobs towards your traps (and actually they wont pay attention to you at all and won't know where your traps are). So you have to be able to step in a melee and stay there to do your job without getting hit or you'll be interupted and useless. And you cant even take a defensive stance since serpents quickness is the key of trap spamming in a build where you CAN'T fill your whole skillbar with trapping skills, for after all you also have to stay alive. But a trapper who can do that will keep the whole pack blind and inflict a lot of conditions and damages to the mobs. Definitely valuable, and a great help for monks.

On a side-note, Martyr is also a must-have for a trapper there.

Back to the topic, yeah finding a group is a real pain. I used to be in the 2 alliances that have controlled Cavalon most of the time, and therefore it was even easier for me to get to the Deep than for the people waiting for a ferry. I went there a few times during the 2 first weeks, but I never get back after. Getting a team and dealing with impatient people, critics from people clueless about what's going on there, warriors who say "yeah I'm a KD warrior" but dont know what KD stands for, rage quitters, etc. I understand people want to give it a try, but for me this game has other challenges and the Deep is not worth the trouble of organizing that. I may go back there sometimes with guildies, but I guess no one will see me LFGing again, at least untill ANET opens it to everybody and it becomes a standard run.

ubermancer · Jun 24, 2006, 12:49 PM // 12:49

I loath trappers. I see the usefulness of one (1) in Urgoz, and my dislike wouldnt prevent me from taking one, if no alternatives were available, but trapping in The Deep... eh. Not a big fan.