Curse

Ira Blinks · Jul 04, 2006, 07:13 PM // 19:13

i can only advise you to read post #37 again...

Aisius · Jul 04, 2006, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winstar

1) Ok 3, You can have 3 defensive skills, for example dolyaks, watch yourself, healing sig while going high damage
2) Umm, killing any number of things faster (and much faster) makes the whole thing go faster which means its not a waste of time and is less of a stress on energy than battles that drag out longer
3) Since one can still control aggro and do all the things a warrior should while being a high damage warrior I fail to see how this doesn't fit in with teamwork
4) Since in pve a high damage tank can perform the function of any low damage defensive tank (i've done it both ways) and the high damage tank was far more efficient in getting through missiosns it seems to me that there is a lot of room for a second opinion. 16 wep foreva!

The reason I think 16 points in weapon mastery is often cercumvented is because with 15 points in strength Dolyak signet can be spammed on yourself indefinetly. That's +40 armour and stops you from being knocked down ALL THE TIME.
Makes sense to then use the sentinels gear which gives you another +20 armour on each piece meaning if you have to use heal signet w/ dolyak sig up the -40 reduction in defense will only bring you back to 100 def.

I think the points listed by the OP are relivant to playing a warrior in GW's PvE, but I disagree with any statement that says a stance tank or warrior who doesn't have max weapon mastery shouldn't be played in PvE.

For all the damage warrior's and max weapon users I ask you to play a warrior in a 4 man PUG on the Captain Rujiyo's mission for the rifts. This imo, is a prime example where tank getting the aggro ahead of the group and tanking the damage for nukers to take out the targets is a neccessity. Btw, these are lvl 28 mobs.

Katari · Jul 04, 2006, 07:52 PM // 19:52

It doesn't take much Str or Tactics to make str and tactics based skills effective. Sure, you can have 15 str, but at 11 str, Dolyak Sig will still be of use. Is it worthwhile to kill your damage to avoid a few seconds of downtime? I actually prefer not having dolyak up fulltime because I like being able to move.

Do you need 13+ Tactics to make good use of Healing Sig and Watch Yourself? No. 11 works just fine.

Both Str and Tactics don't need to be maxed to be effective. If not 16, weapon mastery should be no less than 14. There's just no good reason to sacrifice weapon mastery for Str and Tactics. The damage output of a warrior with 14+ weapon mastery is not even close to insignifigant. If you wanted nothing but tanking you could do just as well with some silly Kinetic Armor, Obsid Flesh ele. You don't, because warriors are naturally just as tough, while being able to kill things, unlike an earth-tank ele.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winstar

1) Ok 3, You can have 3 defensive skills, for example dolyaks, watch yourself, healing sig while going high damage
2) Umm, killing any number of things faster (and much faster) makes the whole thing go faster which means its not a waste of time and is less of a stress on energy than battles that drag out longer
3) Since one can still control aggro and do all the things a warrior should while being a high damage warrior I fail to see how this doesn't fit in with teamwork
4) Since in pve a high damage tank can perform the function of any low damage defensive tank (i've done it both ways) and the high damage tank was far more efficient in getting through missiosns it seems to me that there is a lot of room for a second opinion. 16 wep foreva!

QFT. People underestimate the natural toughness of warriors. Very rarely do warriors die in PvE because they couldn't 'tank' well enough. More frequent are deaths due to bad agro control, over-agroing, or just plain bad teamwork. When monking, the difference between a good damage warrior, and a "good tank" is noticable. It is noticable because when we have a bunch of 'tanks,' forward progress is noticably slower. A good 'tank' dosn't need much less healing than a good damage warrior.

Tiny Killer · Jul 04, 2006, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

facts:
I don't even see the room for second opinion here.

And in all aspects of life, that will be your undoing.

Loch · Jul 04, 2006, 08:44 PM // 20:44

After reading the posts saying that warriors aren't meant for damage, I need to say one thing:

Stop putting the cart before the horse.

The clueless players seem think that warriors get melee weapons because they're already standing up front soaking damage.

The truth is, it actually works the other way - warriors get heavy armor because they have to put themselves in danger to do their job, that job being to kill everything you possibly can with that heavy weapon you're holding.

Don't believe me? Before you shrug me off as an idiot, you need to do three things:

1) Put 16 points into that weapon attribute of yours
2) Play with a monk who isn't a complete tard
3) Run into groups of enemies, use Tiger's Fury or Frenzy when appropriate, and hack away until those suckers die. You will be amazed.

People need to stop this nonsense of, "Warriors are only good damage in PvP." I'm sorry, did I forget about some arbitrary game mechanic that magically makes melee damage suck? No, it's that people have this mindset that AoE is the most efficient damage-source out there. Why not just slam down enemies one at a time with high-DPS warriors, instead of worrying about getting that monster orgy together so that your AoE isn't a complete waste?

By the way, six stances/defensive skills is a complete waste when you can contribute to your defense by killing the enemy offense using attack skills. A nice side-effect is that your objective was to, you know, kill those enemies anyway.

And if you're a warrior worried about not having a decent monk? Then you're still wasting your attributes on defense, because a purely defensive warrior is basically a monk that can only keep himself alive, and not others, so you're actually gimping your team by doing this.

Winstar · Jul 04, 2006, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aisius

The reason I think 16 points in weapon mastery is often cercumvented is because with 15 points in strength Dolyak signet can be spammed on yourself indefinetly. That's +40 armour and stops you from being knocked down ALL THE TIME.
Makes sense to then use the sentinels gear which gives you another +20 armour on each piece meaning if you have to use heal signet w/ dolyak sig up the -40 reduction in defense will only bring you back to 100 def.

I think the points listed by the OP are relivant to playing a warrior in GW's PvE, but I disagree with any statement that says a stance tank or warrior who doesn't have max weapon mastery shouldn't be played in PvE.

For all the damage warrior's and max weapon users I ask you to play a warrior in a 4 man PUG on the Captain Rujiyo's mission for the rifts. This imo, is a prime example where tank getting the aggro ahead of the group and tanking the damage for nukers to take out the targets is a neccessity. Btw, these are lvl 28 mobs.

Allo,

I think Dolyaks can be used perfectly well with less than 15 in str. There is only a small window in which KD will occur. You simply won't be knocked down all the time. So, I don't think there is any need to pump 14 into str and thus make the other armour necessary. Again, I do agree that one can take that route and succeed in Pve, I've simply find the other more efficient. I also agree that one shouldn't say that you ought not play a stance tank. I just don't think the in general as effective as damage tank (which isn't to say that there might be certain points where a stance tank might be more useful).

I've actually been away for the entire festival and unable to play

. I'd love to give that mission a whirl and see how it goes. That said, there isn't a mission in the game pre-festival that I haven't preferred damage on. Now farming is sometimes easier with stances, and the demands of the location will force you to vary the build. Troll farming is so rediculously easy and fast with a glads stance build that I stick with it. I generally find stances in Cantha worse for farming because of mixed mobs and also I find that more and more monsters pack wild blow. Basically, I prefer builds that mimic spider farming more than anything else.

Warskull · Jul 04, 2006, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Some people seem to get it. You don't need a single skill on your bar as a warrior to soak up damage. You can also take a single mid specced tactics skill to help carry you.

You may claim that with 6 stances you can soak up more damage, but remember dead stuff doesn't hurt you. There is no reason an ele can't AoE while you kill (Rodgorts+Fireball.) You only need around 9 points in strength and tactics because you can run a number of skill that are extremely effective at that spec. You may run Dolyak sig, but I'll run "Watch Yourself" and "Rush" with that mobility I can kill whatever is a threat and support our backline at will.

I have openly frenzied against enemies in Cantha and not had any issues. You just have to realize who is a threat vs you and who isn't. If the Healer henchman can keep me alive (who happens to be a horrid monk) I don't most monks will have issues.

Try this:
16 Swordsmanship
8+1 Tactics
10+1 Strength

Sever
Gash
Quivering Blade
"To the Limit!"
"Watch Youself!"
Rush
Frenzy
Rez Sig

First do to the idle of the nameless and watch your DPS on the dummies vs your DPS with your tank. Notice how stuff dies easily? Next go try and hench a mission and see how much faster you kill stuff.

I have done Sorrow's Furnace with groups of 5 Warriors, 1 Orders Necro, and 2 monks. We went in with no quests and mopped up 7 bosses in about 25 minutes a run. We never had to take a breather between mobs, in fact we had a berserker scroll up halfway through (until we ran out of stuff to kill anywhere nearby.)

I am soaking up damage and surviving with 1-2 defensive skills. The difference is I make stuff dead rather quickly.

Ira Blinks · Jul 04, 2006, 09:13 PM // 21:13

ugh i guess some people learn to play teamwork and others... learn to play frenzy wammo... Nothing I can help...

Tiny Killer · Jul 04, 2006, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

ugh i guess some people learn to play teamwork and others... learn to play frenzy wammo... Nothing I can help...

So, if the objective is to kill 20 creatures and the team kills them all, the objective has failed? Sorry, Ira, you lost me there.

Maybe it is that you think it should take 2 hours to clear out Sorrows Furnace. I, on the other hand, do not have that kind of time to invest every day. I prefer to go, kill everything and get out. If I have more time available to me, I would rather go in and do it twice.

Winstar · Jul 04, 2006, 09:31 PM // 21:31

^agree,

Not sure why you happen to think that you aren't a team player if you aren't standing there for the sole purpose of taking hits. If you can hold aggro, kill things faster, and as a result you get things done quickly and efficiently you are a team player.

Jeremy Untouchable · Jul 04, 2006, 10:10 PM // 22:10

unless i'm solo farming i run 15 sword or axe, 9 str 9 tatics, leftover points in 2ndary class.....i switch to a stance only build when i see fit, i will say this tho, warriors are the best class, in the hands of a skilled player, they can allso be the worst class in the hands of a noob

Zinger314 · Jul 04, 2006, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loch

The truth is, it actually works the other way - warriors get heavy armor because they have to put themselves in danger to do their job, that job being to kill everything you possibly can with that heavy weapon you're holding.

Assassins?

fb2000 · Jul 04, 2006, 11:02 PM // 23:02

I have a few problems with the majority of advice giving here, almost all the time i was expecting to read the next post saying that you should put Shock and Eviscerate+Executioners strike on your skillbar..

I see absolutely NO reason why you wouldnt take a REAL rez like Rebirth, but would limit yourself with rez sig... a warrior has been plenty of times the only survivor in my party.. true, if you play well and watch out you wont need it, but come on, like you wouldnt mind relaxing in pve..

unless you run a warrior heavy party, i dont see a reason for 16 in weapon, most 15 or even 14 seem to be optimal. A meteor shower (guess what, the enemies actually just stay in there and soak up the dmg from it

), can pretty much outdmg you most of the time imo. and come a bunched up 30++ warden "Rape Squad", SS would severily outdamage pretty much anything. this is where (someone would need to actually hold aggro after all) something like dolyak signet (mentioned to be an awful skill somewhere inbetween the posts here) actually becomes a really useful skill. unless you plan on dedicating at least 2 slots for some defensive stances, which are likely to get wildblow-n

just my thoughts.. best advice would be to actually try organize ur party before the mission/whatever u doing

Loch · Jul 04, 2006, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Assassins?

Assassins are front-loaded melee spikers. You get into the fray at the right time, get a dagger combo off, then get the hell out of there (usually with some sort of speed/evasion stance). That's why they get shitty armor - they aren't built to stand up front all the time autoattacking like a warrior could do.

Warriors, on the other hand, are perpetual damage machines that can withstand attacks better than anyone else because their job is to stand up front attacking all day.

Winstar · Jul 05, 2006, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Hey fb2000

If I'm using a full warrior bar I go monk 2ndary for a hard res. I agree that shock isn't useful and I would rather sub it for something like watch yourself since you don't have to deal with kiting targets in the same was as you do in pvp. Dolyak is a good skill imo which I've said many times. You just don't need rediculously high points in str to use it effectively. 14-16 is a good range for your wep in pve depending on whether you need to dip into something like healing which for soloing is occasionaly necessary. If I don't need to, which is the general case, its perfectly good to 16 11 9.

Creatures don't always stand in showers, they try and leave when they can, and sometimes they showers don't hit them properly. I actually think that you can easily outdamage the number of storms an ele can cast in the course of a battle. And why not do as much damage as you possibly can while still being able to do your job as a warrior effectively?

Bottom line for me: You should simply aim to do the maximum damage you can while at the same time being able to hold aggro and survive. I find this easily admits of using 16 weapon mastery in almost every case.

Aisius · Jul 05, 2006, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winstar

Allo,

I think Dolyaks can be used perfectly well with less than 15 in str. There is only a small window in which KD will occur. You simply won't be knocked down all the time. So, I don't think there is any need to pump 14 into str and thus make the other armour necessary. Again, I do agree that one can take that route and succeed in Pve, I've simply find the other more efficient. I also agree that one shouldn't say that you ought not play a stance tank. I just don't think the in general as effective as damage tank (which isn't to say that there might be certain points where a stance tank might be more useful).

I've actually been away for the entire festival and unable to play

. I'd love to give that mission a whirl and see how it goes. That said, there isn't a mission in the game pre-festival that I haven't preferred damage on. Now farming is sometimes easier with stances, and the demands of the location will force you to vary the build. Troll farming is so rediculously easy and fast with a glads stance build that I stick with it. I generally find stances in Cantha worse for farming because of mixed mobs and also I find that more and more monsters pack wild blow. Basically, I prefer builds that mimic spider farming more than anything else.

Well that's a bummer you can't have a crack at the mission I refferred to. Previous to this festival event I never even ran with Dolyak or Gladiators defense. I'd always stick with my 1.5K Kurzick Glads gear with knights boot and 16 mastery. I haven't capped Evicserate yet so I use tripple chop and would only have shield stance on my bar.
For this mission though there's no way I could endure the damage without the monk having to heal me early and likely have the whole pull go to hell.
I just think in summary to where the thread is going that while damage is a neccessity to a warrior doing there job pve wise, stance tanking should not be overlooked for some missions/quests/group combinations.

-Umm yeah the main reason I never run swords is because of the spell interupt. Distrupting Chop>>Distracting Blow imo.

*** Also Warskull can you please edit your post to add that every PvE warrior should have a longbow or at least a bow. Drives me mad that a warrior can't pull a mob.

Conan The Castrater · Jul 05, 2006, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Number 1 rule: Bring a bow (preferably longbow oe equivalent range).

bitchbar player · Jul 05, 2006, 08:29 AM // 08:29

If you see a monk down, you rez him, don't expect the second monk (if present) to rez him because then no one is healing.

So monk dead warrior rez

Good guide
Me and all other monks would love seeing everybody following this.

bigwig · Jul 05, 2006, 09:35 AM // 09:35

do people actually bring 6 stances?

the truth of the whole tank vs dmg dealer thing lies somewhere in the middle. i bring 3 defensive skills and 3 offensive skills, my attributes aren't maxed but neither are they low for either side.

You can play it either way, but if you're pugging, go defense.

Nexus Icon · Jul 05, 2006, 12:32 PM // 12:32

The REAL secret to being a good PvE Warrior?

Know your enemy, and be flexible.
There is no "One size fits all" build out there that you can rely on 100% of the time, and neither should you have to obey players dictating builds at you.

Different enemies require different tactics, as do different goals.

Never restrict yourself to the cookie-cutter builds favoured by the majority; find a way of doing things that you enjoy the most.

Here endeth the lesson.