Curse

Ira Blinks · Jul 02, 2006, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Avarre
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Nuker - yes it doesn't say meteor shower nor echo/GoR. But then I would like to ask you what is it that delivers "heavy damage to large numbers of enemies"?
And don't you tell me you don't know that recharge time is the bane of ele, so if you don't have some kind of recharge booster you are waste of party slot by definition.

Now when it comes to playing build you want, I say get guildies for that. What PuGs want is a specific time-proven effective build. Can you do better? Maybe... 99% of the time you don't.
I'm sorry but you point is incredibly selfish and dumb. You say hey I want to join your goup but I want to paly my own build so dont tell me what to do...
So how about no? How about you play builds you want with henchies?
There is a time for trying things aout and there is a time for getting things done. If whole group is trying to get something done (farming for green or getting thru the mission) and you just messing around with build, then you deserve all the flame you can possibly get.

I am friggin sick and tired of all those open-minded idiots out there who tell you they got awesome build and they they [email protected] you up half way thru. So you wanna do what you want, get some guildies or henchies and do that. Otherwise screw you and don't you dare to tell me I have to tolerate this bull.

FalconDance · Jul 02, 2006, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paperfly

PS: I agree that Elementalist is the worst possible primary for Factions-only players. I expanded my account about two days after Factions came out, and the lack of new Elementalists in Shing Jea island was something of a running joke at the time.

Really? Guess that explains all the rits and 'sins then since the eles are soooo icky. Wow, I'm glad y'all saved me from myself! <said with major sacrcasm>

Oh wait, I have a Canthan ele primary. For a while she ran Air (fire eles are a dime a dozen and I prefer Air/Earth, anyhow) but now she's Earth and Death (a dirty little minion mistress

).....and is very successful!

Once again---it's the player behind the keyboard who determines if a character sucks, not the skills or the profession. I've seen warriors in full Sentinels (AL100 universal) who fell like crazy because they expected their uber armor and uber green weapon to be the magic cure to their own inadequacies as a non-skilled player. UUURRRR, wrong. On the other hand, I've watched characters (take your pick of profession, have noticed it on all) with collector's armor (i.e. no special perks vs. anything) and relative crap weapons kick serious ass.

As for skills being available for one and not the other unless you immigrate: well folks, they are two separate continents. Factions is a stand-alone game. You can get really good skills in either chapter but unless you get your visa stamped (have both chapters) you should not be allowed to magically access all skills from everywhere at will. Think about it. If you were Spanish, you would have access to all the Spanish-whatever because you're a native. But you couldn't get exclusive Spanish-whatever if you were from India unless you went to Spain and vice-versa.

If you can't create an effective 'build' (hate that word) with the skills presented without whining and bitching about what you don't have, then maybe you need to find a different game to play.

FalconDance · Jul 02, 2006, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

Avarre
.........
There is a time for trying things aout and there is a time for getting things done. If whole group is trying to get something done (farming for green or getting thru the mission) and you just messing around with build, then you deserve all the flame you can possibly get.

I am friggin sick and tired of all those open-minded idiots out there who tell you they got awesome build and they they [email protected] you up half way thru. So you wanna do what you want, get some guildies or henchies and do that. Otherwise screw you and don't you dare to tell me I have to tolerate this bull.

Hopefully, by the time you're in a higher level mission, you have your profession figured out. But I agree, if you want to experiment, a rough mission is not the time to test it.

Yesterday, I was helping a guildie do Last Stand on Shing Jea. He's a 'sin going for the Survivor title (may have gotten it last night--was less than 17,000xp away from it!). I was a monk and we had another monk in the party. When we transitioned out of Tsumei, I noticed the other monk wielding an axe and shield. Ok, I thought, he is a monk/war, but I asked him if he was developing a 55. He didn't answer but it soon became apparent that he was not healing. After the initital fight, I nailed him politely and he admitted to being a smiter who couldn't get into parties because everyone expected monks to be healers. I said I didn't have a problem with that--except that as party healer, I needed to know before the first fight that I was the only healer! He sheepishly apologized, we were victorious and before the end of the evening, he joined our itty-bitty guild.

Since I am one of those "open-minded idiots" you disdain who doesn't like to play cookie-cutter builds, I will say that I never advertise my 'awesome build' but I do state up front what I run so there are no nasty surprises when someone expects something else. Nine times out of ten, when I do this, it is no big deal and we merrily go off to slay the foe. I do not map out unless there is severe abuse in/from the party or it is agreed that it's just not going to work (for whatever reason) and the party needs to regroup. Now, if I were in a party where someone started flaming me for not being a 'nuker' when I'd already stated I wasn't, I'd be tempted. Especially if that person(s) were not holding their end of the deal up and was scape-goating onto me. Especially if the perceived failure was not due to my actions or inactions but rather a horrid spawn/party make-up in general.

So rant all you like. Not everyone wants to play a stereotypical, cookie-cutter build. That doesn't mean they're all failures and should be banned from ever darkening your gaming threshold again.

Avarre · Jul 02, 2006, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

I am friggin sick and tired of all those open-minded idiots out there who tell you they got awesome build and they they [email protected] you up half way thru. So you wanna do what you want, get some guildies or henchies and do that. Otherwise screw you and don't you dare to tell me I have to tolerate this bull.

Ira, quite simply, you are... well, I don't have a word right now. There is no area where everyone has to run a specific build, and no-one should ever have to run something they would prefer not to. This is a game, and PvE is for enjoyment, not competition.

It's one thing to advise a person what to bring that would be better. It's another to dictate what they should be bringing. The only case you can tell someone what they should be bringing is a specific situation (inspired enchant for kanaxai, traversal in urgoz, not playing a MM in sanctum, etc) that requires it.

At first when I read your reply to the OP, I thought that maybe you were just a standard cookiecutter player. Then I read your reply to Kyosuki, someone who only has factions and therefore probably wasn't around for updates, specifically about AoEDoT. Since they know less about something you take for granted as knowledge, they don't dignify a response?

Congratulations, you're elitist!

Not only do you place yourself as the arbiter-exarch of builds, but of experience too. If you can only play with your 'cookie cutter tested' builds, hell, you aren't even a good player. It is a thousand times more gratifying to let people play the way they want while still remaining in synergy and winning in PvE. FalconDance's smiter story is an example - while the smiter really should have made it known (though I can't blame him, 90% of people would just kick the smiter if he mentioned), who is anyone to tell him how he should spend his time playing a game? I agree with most of Falcon's points.. I give my setup if requested but otherwise I play what I feel like playing.

And then you go on to call every who doesn't agree with you an idiot.

You gave some examples of when it's 'time to get things done', farming greens and getting through the mission. Was your character hit in the head recently, distorting your intelligence? Name me one mission that requires a specific setup of everyone in the team. Name me one green farm that has a specific setup that is required.

The creation of cookie cutters comes from where people see what works, and is easy, and then all copy it. From there, it becomes commonly known as it's easier to, these days for example, ask for a certain type of player to join their team, or for newer players to mimic known setups so that they have a solid base to play from. However, this does not mean this is the only effective skill setup. I have seen eles of all type, and the vast majority of the time, the ones that play well do superbly whether they are water, or fire, or air, or earth. Some of the most impressive nukers I've seen have had none of the three skills you claimed were 'required'. I've also seen alot of players with 2 of the ones you said, that are completely incompetent.

Can you see where this is going? Build, unless in particular cases (as I mentioned above already, where it is your responsibility to inform), is secondary to player skill and capability. So long as someone knows their own build and what they're doing, you can take your cookie-cutter setups and impress the hench with your wikiknowledge.

FalconDance · Jul 02, 2006, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Just a quick note about that Smiter from last night: he was guilded but said that none of his guild ever offered any advice or help. That's a separate issue, of course, but it brought to mind that if the more experienced players don't try to help the new-to-the-game (he has had Factions for a week and no Prophecies), then how are they supposed to learn except for painful trial and error? That may be how we all started out in the beginning, but why not share experiences with what works and doesn't work in a non-confrontational manner? I'd never have kept my Tyrian monk (or ranger or mesmer or ele, for that matter) if not for the patient advice and never-ending encouragement from good friends !

He asked what I would suggest to help him when I commented that he took damage faster than I could heal him (he was lvl 12 and I was lvl 14). It took me aback until I remembered that I had played for nearly a year and he was *new*.

I told him to experiment with skills to determine what worked best for him. It's not a revolutionary concept, really.

CHUIU · Jul 02, 2006, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

Avarre
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Nuker - yes it doesn't say meteor shower nor echo/GoR. But then I would like to ask you what is it that delivers "heavy damage to large numbers of enemies"?
And don't you tell me you don't know that recharge time is the bane of ele, so if you don't have some kind of recharge booster you are waste of party slot by definition.

Quote:

When asking for a Nuker, players almost always mean Elementalists more specifically pyromancers (like the E/Me_Heavy_Nuker), who inflict AoE and massive damage spells .

$50 wont cost you an arm and a leg.

Telcontar of Gondor · Jul 02, 2006, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Ira, quite simply, you are... well, I don't have a word right now.

Moron, perhaps? In my opinion, a description of anyone who perceives nukers as being effective only when they run meteor shower with echo/glyph of renewal, can be summed up quite well by that word. Perhaps if I was a native English speaker I'd be able to come up with a more apt term, but alas, that's not the case.

Ira, if someone is effectively doing the job they're supposed to be doing as part of a team without hindering the rest of the party, their build is irrelevant. People like you who insist that they must run cookie-cutter setups (e.g. echo meteor shower, which, as mentioned earlier, is getting outdated in Factions) should take their own advice and play only with henchmen. Not everyone in a team is obliged to run a specific build because someone else thinks so, least of all if they're doing an efficient job already.

I can do nothing but laugh at the idea of meteor shower being the only skill that delivers "heavy damage to large numbers of enemies." I understand, though. You don't seem to like the whole open-minded thing, so you wouldn't be able to come up with something else. That's alright. I'll go ahead and answer your question, by giving you a few fire skills that, when properly used, do better damage than meteor shower (and incidentally don't take 5 years to cast, either): star burst, flame burst, inferno, rodgort's invocation. Oh noes, those are melee range! An ele on the front lines! What are we going to do? Throw in some defense skills to make sure that if aggro splits from your tank, you can take some hits.

Voila, you have a working elementalist nuker build that delivers mass amounts of damage to mass amounts of enemies, and doesn't have any of the three skills you mentioned. I've seen people effectively killing off whole groups of enemies with a skill lineup similar to what I've just described much faster than anything meteor shower could've done.

Now, I don't really know what build the OP was running, or if it was anything similar to what I wrote above, but if she's killed Kanaxai 7 times it obviously says something about whether or not it prevents the group from being successful. So I guess what I'm trying to say is, you can take your glorified meteor shower and your elitist attitude, and shove it.

Naxohs Seralna · Jul 02, 2006, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Commander Ryker

Factions only players should not be penalized for having just factions. It was advertised as a stand alone, yet all the skill are not available. This just isn't right. Anet, please make all tyria skills available to Canthans.

Don't expect this to happen. Ever. It's basic business.

Oh, and I have to agree with the OP. You should NOT tolerate any crap from a person who joined YOUR party. Sometimes I wish there was a 'kick player' button available while doing missions.

To everyone who has flamed this woman: Listen to yourselves! You're reducing GW to a game where there's no creativity or personality at all. One of the cornerstones in this game is that each player can create his or her unique build, yet have it work like a charm. Don't judge things that are different from what you already know.

Besides, did people even read her post before starting to accuse the OP of being a "noob", "lier" [sic] and "cheater"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vandia

...she has helped killed Kanaxai 7 times

Sounds to me like she's got a slight idea of how to handle herself...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vandia

We who only have Factions, have the same right to be playing a Factions mission as the Proph people do.

Sounds logical to me.

Ira Blinks · Jul 02, 2006, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Avarre
you still dont get it do you... The game allows you to run any build you want. It is your right and dont pretend like I'm taking that away from you. But if you join a group as a nuker and start casting firestrom and breath of fire... expect people to be pissed BIG TIME!

You think your build is better than mine "cookie-cutter"? Jeeeez fine... I never even said it is not. The point is that groups are formed with specific roles in mind... Roles, not primary classes. First there is a role that need to be filled, then there is a person who can do it, not the other way around. If you can not do it, then you are the trouble maker, not the group.

If you don't understand such a simple thing I don't even see the point to continue talking to you. So excuse me my elitism, because I expect people to have basic understanding of the game before I can deal with them.

Ira Blinks · Jul 02, 2006, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by FalconDance

So rant all you like. Not everyone wants to play a stereotypical, cookie-cutter build. That doesn't mean they're all failures and should be banned from ever darkening your gaming threshold again.

Oh excuse me, but so far you, Avarre and OP are the ones who ranting here... "whaaaa... i'm not being accepted by stupid people... whaaa..... i wanna play this build but people don't like me... whaaa...."
Make yourself worthy being accepted and the problem will go away by itself.

Thom Bangalter · Jul 02, 2006, 07:18 PM // 19:18

funny thing about ira is, they're getting all uppity in a pve forum. PvE is all about enjoyment, and fun.

If you want to get all snobby about things, I'll just laugh at some of the comical builds posted here that would never, ever be good in pvp.

Rent · Jul 02, 2006, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telcontar of Gondor

I can do nothing but laugh at the idea of meteor shower being the only skill that delivers "heavy damage to large numbers of enemies."

As far as a PvE elementalist goes? Feel free to list more and better. I'm taking notes.

Avarre · Jul 02, 2006, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

Oh excuse me, but so far you, Avarre and OP are the ones who ranting here... "whaaaa... i'm not being accepted by stupid people... whaaa..... i wanna play this build but people don't like me... whaaa...."
Make yourself worthy being accepted and the problem will go away by itself.

You think I'm ranting about that? Reread my post, my problem is with players like you. Fortunately you added your own self-description so I don't need to go into detail.

Quote:

But if you join a group as a nuker and start casting firestrom and breath of fire... expect people to be pissed BIG TIME!

Once again you fail to read. I stated that if there is an inherent problem with the build, such as it triggers AoE code, that is different then complaining about the lack of single skills that a person thinks someone else should bring, in this case meteor shower.

Quote:

You think your build is better than mine "cookie-cutter"?

What build? I said that cookie-cutters are developed because they work, but also slow experimental progress as more use that setup.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rent

As far as a PvE elementalist goes? Feel free to list more and better. I'm taking notes.

I've often been far more impressed with dual-attuned nuke-spammers than with giant spell echo casters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

a pve forum

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

I'll just laugh at some of the comical builds posted here that would never, ever be good in pvp.

Right.

Mouse at Large · Jul 02, 2006, 08:27 PM // 20:27

I'm with Avarre on this. I playe E/Me, mostly fire as E though sometimes Geo, sometimes Hydro. Sometimes even all mesmer skills I wouldn't go near FoW without 10 in insp and SoF and Power Drain for e-management.

IMHO the most ineffective "nuker" is one where a couple of MS/Rodgorts get fired off and the rest of the time is spent wanding.......

mtm · Jul 02, 2006, 08:32 PM // 20:32

It's sad to see how much anger people can have and how much energy they can spend to offend others and keep offending.

It seems that some people here think they are the high council of GW that should interrogate people and award the "nuker diploma" before they are able to party with any other player in the game.

When you start feeling that everyone else should do what you think is right and if they don't they are "idiots" and similar words thrown at every other post, then you need to get out more.

Please don't take this as a personal attack to everyone because it is not at all my point, I've had someone throwing insults and craptalk at me the last time I expressed similar opinion, where the "offended" party ended up with sewer content posts and promised to "pm me his build" missing totally my point, apart from looking too much at his bellybutton. I really don't feel like going in flame wars with overblown egos this time.

Peace and try to be more friendly and open minded, even if this means failing to kill kanaxai once in a while.

FalconDance · Jul 02, 2006, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

Oh excuse me, but so far you, Avarre and OP are the ones who ranting here... "whaaaa... i'm not being accepted by stupid people... whaaa..... i wanna play this build but people don't like me... whaaa...."
Make yourself worthy being accepted and the problem will go away by itself.

Ummm, I don't remember ever saying I couldn't or didn't get accepted into a group because i refuse to be the dime-a-dozen fire nuker.

In fact, I have *never* had trouble getting into a PuG with either of my eles, one who is Air/Earth and the other who is Earth/Death. Only time I ever ran fire was in the beginning in Tyria since that are the skills they give.

For that matter, if a team absolutely needed a fire ele, I could easily change atts and skills to meet the need......even though I have yet to see an instance where that was the absolute need.

No flaming intended, Ira, but you are one who is ranting, if nothing else by using flamebait language. If your build works for you, *great*! But please do not dismiss any variation as less or ineffective just because it isn't one of those 'approved' builds posted somewhere.

If a group is so blinkered by stereotypes as you say (with their expectaions and roles that must be filled by only a specified build, then is that the fault of a player or the group at large? What if they find that x-build isn't as effective as thought (in mission or specified location) and then y-build turns out to kick ass? Would they or you be willing or even able to admit that there might be validity in something besides cookie-cutters?

Sure, fire hurts in Cantha. But so does Air and Earth and Water. Maybe it goes back to the age-old idea that an ele ought to be an uber-damage dealing machine in squishy armor.

There's room for everyone--if an open mind and spirit of innovation is maintained.

Ira Blinks · Jul 02, 2006, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Avarre and FalconDance
ummm no... it is you who said people are stupid because they don't need the builds you like to play. It is your choice not to be accepted. It is your overgrown ego pushes you to be different all the time. I am not making you to use any build. It is your choice to meet requirement or not.
You took your pill Neo and now you trying to make it look like my fault... sorry not going to happen.
I don't even care what you think is good. I know what is good because it was tested many times and it works.

I like to play earth ele myslef, but when Im looking for a group for mission i take out my Rago's and nuke hell out of stuff, because thats what I'm expected to do.
It doesn't matter how well you perform on your own because if you are not doing what group expects you to do, bacause you are screwing everyone over your stupidity... because you are selfish arrogant noob.

Honestly I don't even know whay I am wasting my breath on you... All you said so far is that people should respect you because you like to look different. No, they don't. And once again if you don't like it go play with henchies and quit blaming "stupid people".

Ira Blinks · Jul 02, 2006, 09:42 PM // 21:42

mtm
I dont' see what confuses you. It is prety standard practice to ask people what is on their skillbar when doing elite mission, especially elementalists. There is nothing wrong with making sure that person in your group knows what his role is and won't make you go back to town and regroup.
In fact when I join the group for the high-end area and leader doesn't ask me what my build is, it is first alarm that tells me that maybe i should look for something else.

lishi · Jul 02, 2006, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leddy

This highlights a much greater problem.

The problem isn't whether a factions elementalist can deal damage; it's whether an elementalist can deal damage at all.

Guild Wars is the only RPG in which the class which can take the most damage, the Warrior, can also deal the most damage. Every single other RPG there has an elemental spellcaster as the supreme damage dealer; yet in GW the elementalist clearly sucks ass at inflicting damage.

(hint hint unbalanced.)

And yes. Factions-only eles are seriously handicapped. With their focus on PbAoE skills (all the factions fire elites are PbAoE), they are in a worse off position than any Tyrian ele. All nuking builds can be made with Tyrian skills and do not require any factions skills at all.

if i could i will delete that ensign post into the digital oblivion >_>

if you really think a warrior on pve can make more damage then a elementalist , well fix your elementalist skillbar.

FalconDance · Jul 02, 2006, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

Avarre and FalconDance
ummm no... it is you who said people are stupid because they don't need the builds you like to play. It is your choice not to be accepted. It is your overgrown ego pushes you to be different all the time. I am not making you to use any build. It is your choice to meet requirement or not.
You took your pill Neo and now you trying to make it look like my fault... sorry not going to happen.
I don't even care what you think is good. I know what is good because it was tested many times and it works.

I like to play earth ele myslef, but when Im looking for a group for mission i take out my Rago's and nuke hell out of stuff, because thats what I'm expected to do.
It doesn't matter how well you perform on your own because if you are not doing what group expects you to do, bacause you are screwing everyone over your stupidity... because you are selfish arrogant noob.

Honestly I don't even know whay I am wasting my breath on you... All you said so far is that people should respect you because you like to look different. No, they don't. And once again if you don't like it go play with henchies and quit blaming "stupid people".

Ira, sweetie, you must have blinked when reading any of my posts (can't speak for Avarre) because no where did I say a party had to accept my ele (or other profession since it applies to all) regardless of what they called for (since I don't randomly join if a party is specifically calling for a certain type which I'm not currently set for).

Furthermore, I have yet to be in a group, either in Tyria or in Cantha, that demanded that I play a fire nuker. Now, maybe that was just my luck of the draw or maybe that's because the expectation isn't as strong as you might suggest. Granted, in places such as the Shiverpeaks fire is best, period. But that doesn't preclude any other sort of elemental damage or its damage giver from being equally effective.

No where have I said that I demand respect for my 'overgrown ego' (i.e. non-fire nuker) build. What I have said ad nauseum is that it (nuker) is not the only effective or acceptable one!

No where did I call people stupid nor do I believe that parties only need certain builds to the absolute exclusion of all others. To me that seems both a sad way to play and a total waste of anyone offering/buying/using any of the other elements.

Actually, Ira, YOU called everyone who thinks differently than you "stupid" if you read your own post. The majority of the others of us were discussing points pro and con and you began flaming rather spectacularly. Since none of the rest of us have been so rude to you, please desist.