Curse

Shaq_gw · Dec 04, 2006, 12:58 PM // 12:58

People have been playing with hero's and henchman so much they have to learn how to play in a PUG all over again. Or for the new players .. from scratch

People only played through with their favorite chars so far, leaving other profession behind, making it harder to create a balanced group

People kick into a state of denial when they experience their first "party wipe seconds into the mission". Therefore rage-quitting is rampant.

People have high hopes of what is in there and no confirmation their hopes will be met yet. This too leads to a state of denial.

Most people still take the head-on approach to the mission. (i did see one thread involving sneaking away and coming back on the groups terms). The obvious way is not the only way.

All of these will be solved in time.

And now please close this thread

Cebe · Dec 04, 2006, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaq_gw

People only played through with their favorite chars so far, leaving other profession behind, making it harder to create a balanced group

People kick into a state of denial when they experience their first "party wipe seconds into the mission". Therefore rage-quitting is rampant.

Well yes and yes. Although just because people play their favourite character through doesn't mean everyone likes the same character! I currently have 3 endgame characters. My canthan ele (favourite) went through first, followed by my elonian monk, and my canthan mesmer. I've seen plenty of professions in DoA though...enough to make balanced groups.

The second statement there I agree with and really annoys me. As soon as one person dies...people start leaving the group. Why? Noone benefits from having to form new groups continually. If people learned to get to know each others builds and tweaked every time they got pwnd things may go much better.

isamu kurosawa · Dec 04, 2006, 01:52 PM // 13:52

id say people playing their favorite porfession first increases success rate, imagine playing a build/class you hate for the first time in such an area

Avarre · Dec 04, 2006, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Why is it hard? Three things.

People are terrible at playing their characters.

I have seen casters tank, warriors charge straight through mobs, warriors aggro and drag everything back, people incapable of kiting, and enough to give me nightmares.

People are terrible at making their character setups.

455 hp. Using bad skills for the zone. A huge number of PvE players run less than optimal settings, and this amounts for their destruction if their own capabilities (or lack of) don't.

People are terrible at making their teams.

The huge majority of PuG teams are just 'grab classes and go', and don't really think to how the group will synergize. Even worse, some bring a setup that just lacks defence/offence and puts them at a disadvantage the second they enter the zone.

Lack of zone knowledge hurts too, but that's to be expected - and it's the one thing that will improve without doubt.

Mai · Dec 04, 2006, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa

id say people playing their favorite porfession first increases success rate, imagine playing a build/class you hate for the first time in such an area

I second that.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with people playing their favorite professions.

Thalion Galad · Dec 04, 2006, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Hi all

Make it for 12 players that will be fun and still hard, in that away more classes can play the missions not just the standart ones.

4 hours to complet a mission? why the warnings saying that u played for xx hours and plz take a rest ?

plz anet make the gamers/costumers happy i thinks that a law in bussiness...

Lem · Dec 04, 2006, 02:36 PM // 14:36

To be honest they could make it for 16 players and all the noobs would still get insta wiped. It is not called an elite mission for nothing.

It is by no means required to beat the game, obviously half the people whining have never had a go in fissure, underworld or the factions elite missions. These elite missions are by no means new, they have always been in the game, so basically learn to play it or ignore it and don't go there anymore.

It's pretty simple really.

KamikazeChicken · Dec 04, 2006, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Why is it hard... People are terrible at playing their characters.

That's the #1 reason.

Wildi · Dec 04, 2006, 02:53 PM // 14:53

urgoz & the deep was 12 players, DOA = 8, why ?

Shaq_gw · Dec 04, 2006, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mai

I second that.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with people playing their favorite professions.

That's no guarantee. A bad player with a favourite character is still bad.

I had a PUG yesterday with a few hero's in it. The group leader had dunkoro setup with heals and elementalist damage skills, and tahlkora with a few prots and MINIONS

It was at moddock crevice and i was a full monk so no problem in the end .. but do this in DOA and ..............

Avarre · Dec 04, 2006, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamikazeChicken

That's the #1 reason.

Which is why I listed it first

DoA, imo, is perfectly fine at 8 players for the explorable areas. It's still possible to just template-team it, and more people complete parts by the day.

PvE is a dual battle against the game and against your team. People complain that Anet buffed the mob enemies too high, I grumble that the enemies in my own team are too strong.

Xiypher · Dec 04, 2006, 03:02 PM // 15:02

urgoz and the deep were easy
if doa was 12 it would made it AT LEAST twice as easy
think of the teams that can clear the bosses now, and add 4 SF/MS nukers... you could walk through those zones with ease

clawofcrimson · Dec 04, 2006, 03:53 PM // 15:53

what I cant stand is another place where we get stuck in a "specific" build and then no one will ever let you in if your not the exact fit....

tomb of primeval kings????? a place for BPs alone ?!? cmon now... if that be the case anet should make a domain for each specific prof. Has anyone tried to do TOPK with a warrior.... its possible maybe ....but good luck getting a group... I went there last night with a PARA bp and waisted 30min of my time looking for a group. even though a (go for the eyes/find their weakness) para BP will do considerably more damage in a group than any r/m BP....

Now in domain of anguish... I tried for an hour to get into a group with my warrior and when i finally did it didnt last more than a few minutes before I was booted simply because they said tanks didnt work??

dont get me wrong. I like a challenge. But I dont want another TOPK where some proffessions are absolutely useless.

ramma77 · Dec 04, 2006, 04:00 PM // 16:00

it should be about teamwork. not FORCING teams to have sf/ms ele's or mantra of frost and winter. you should still be able to play what you want. killers kill, healers heal, protters prot etc. Skill >cookie cutter builds.

i'm not wasting my time in there until something is done about it. I want to play the game and do what i want. not what Anet have practically forced you to do.

And some people that are doing are saying it's taking 3-5 hours to do one bit. Casual gamers don't have 3-5 hours. I play 6 hours a night and i can't be bothered to spend that long on something. shove razah up your abyss

it should have been a HARD balanced area. poor dervs and assassins.

Xiypher · Dec 04, 2006, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

Now in domain of anguish... I tried for an hour to get into a group with my warrior and when i finally did it didnt last more than a few minutes before I was booted simply because they said tanks didnt work??

Tanks are extremely helpful, if the tank knows how to stay alive, with minimal healing, and keep 95%+ of all aggro. which isnt that hard, i did my first run through the city a few hours ago as a warrior, i'd hold all melee+ranged and about 1/2 the enemy casters while my team killed

Quote:

Originally Posted by ramma77

it should have been a HARD balanced area. poor dervs and assassins.

an experianced derv can take the place of said tank, assassins are indeed SOL

we did have full MoF with gc+winter (its just a good idea, used to use it for THK when it was "hard"), but aside from that, we were just a balanced group, 1W, 1R, 1N, 3Mo, 2E...

Mai · Dec 04, 2006, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaq_gw

That's no guarantee. A bad player with a favourite character is still bad.

I had a PUG yesterday with a few hero's in it. The group leader had dunkoro setup with heals and elementalist damage skills, and tahlkora with a few prots and MINIONS

It was at moddock crevice and i was a full monk so no problem in the end .. but do this in DOA and ..............

A bad player is a bad player regardless of class.

SnipiousMax · Dec 04, 2006, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by ramma77

it should be about teamwork. not FORCING teams to have sf/ms ele's or mantra of frost and winter. you should still be able to play what you want. killers kill, healers heal, protters prot etc. Skill >cookie cutter builds.

See I disagree here. I think areas SHOULD force you to think about your team makeup before you enter them.

I see nothing at all wrong about having to think about what skills everyone is bringing before going into the mission, nor do I see a problem when certain strageties call for certain skills to pull off. This area hasn't been open long, and people are coming up with all sorts of ways to get through it. Like Avarre has been pointing out, the actual group composition isn't important, rather the forethought and idividual player skill is forefront. It's always been that way. They only reason people look for the 'Trinity' of builds, is because it secures the best chance that inexperienced players have of getting through an area. The ability to 'play what you want' comes with the price tag of much forethought and planning.

Antheus · Dec 04, 2006, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Adding 12 players wouldn't solve anything. It would just mean more people would wipe at the exactly same spot.

And the holy trinity is the bane of PUGs. Mesmer is one class which can make things go really fast by severly gimping primarily healers, and casters after that.

Holy trinity builds work really well when played by experienced players. More diverse groups would work much better when played by more people - of course, that's wishful thinking.

Eclair · Dec 04, 2006, 04:53 PM // 16:53

I completely agree with SnipiousMax. The thing that makes mantra of frost so great is that ANY class can get it, as its a core skill. Just plop up a mesmer secondary and you're in. Basically, You just need one ranger and have everyone change to mesmer secondary. You still have 7 other characters to do whatever you want with.

Every class is useful here. This is the general breakup of what I think is a pretty good and balanced team:

The Tanks(1-2): Generally one, but I've heard people going with two tanks with sucess too.
Warrior: The standard tank, I think City is the only place where he kind of just has to stand there, since every attack will kill his energy. In the other places, he's free to whack things too.
Dervish: I haven't actually seen a Dervish take the role yet, but I've heard of groups who have. Correctly setup, they should function as well as a warrior, if not better in some areas.
Assassin: This is still experimental, but having 2 assasins with Shadowform, and arcane mimicry would give you an invincible pair of tankers that do not need any monk support, be HIGHLY mobile, and still be able to dish out damage/knockdown/conditions (again, not in City). This could also work with one assassin and another class sacrificing their elite slot for Shadow form. I'm going to try this when my other guildmate gets to DoA.

Support/Damage Mitigation (3-4):
Monks: Generally you should run one protector(to lifebond +prot spirit the tank) and one healer to help deal with spikes and damage in general.
Paragon: Great overall support character. "They're on fire" is absolutely great with SF elementalists. Signet of Return is absolutely essential when your res sigs don't refresh until the end (after you kill the boss). Angelic Bond makes your prot monk's job much easier.
Ranger: Generally the one who brings the Winter + Greater Conflag, can ditch mesmer secondary for rit secondary and bring further defenses, or can spec in offense in stead.
Ritualist: Not too sure on these, since Shelter and Union fall way too quickly. I have heard of other people using them with success though.
Necro: The only defensive role I can think of for a Necro is Biping your casters and monks, which is extremely helpful, perhaps wells too, although their use is limited.
Elementalist: I've heard people having success using wards to mitigate damage, not something I've seen personally though.

Damage/Disruption(3-4):
Elementalist: Standard SF/MS setup works well. SF is pretty much the best damage a elementalist can dish out. It's not the player's fault that A-net pretty much made SF one of the only choices if you want to do decent damage. Snares(water elemenalists) are extremely useful in the Stygian Veil.
Mesmer: Spiritual Pain + Mistrust are an excellent source of armor penetrating damage, addional skill slots can be focused on caster hate (generally the casters are the ones you have to worry about the most, especially the monks).
Rangers: Trapping is good here for overall damage and snaring. Choking Gas is excellent at disrupting casters and preventing a lot of damage by preventing them from casting those spells in the first place.
Necro: Most of the mobs are going to be highly packed, so SS would work wonders. Disease would be handy to have around too.

I mean, this in my opinion is extremely balanced. Every class plays a role, and a lot of classes can be subbed out for other classes. The only class I think that is ABSOLUTELY needed is probably a monk, but that's generally true for most teams.

Kaane · Dec 04, 2006, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eclair

I completely agree with SnipiousMax. The thing that makes mantra of frost so great is that ANY class can get it, as its a core skill. Just plop up a mesmer secondary and you're in. Basically, You just need one ranger and have everyone change to mesmer secondary. You still have 7 other characters to do whatever you want with.

Every class is useful here. This is the general breakup of what I think is a pretty good and balanced team:

The Tanks(1-2): Generally one, but I've heard people going with two tanks with sucess too.
Warrior: The standard tank, I think City is the only place where he kind of just has to stand there, since every attack will kill his energy. In the other places, he's free to whack things too.
Dervish: I haven't actually seen a Dervish take the role yet, but I've heard of groups who have. Correctly setup, they should function as well as a warrior, if not better in some areas.
Assassin: This is still experimental, but having 2 assasins with Shadowform, and arcane mimicry would give you an invincible pair of tankers that do not need any monk support, be HIGHLY mobile, and still be able to dish out damage/knockdown/conditions (again, not in City). This could also work with one assassin and another class sacrificing their elite slot for Shadow form. I'm going to try this when my other guildmate gets to DoA.

Support/Damage Mitigation (3-4):
Monks: Generally you should run one protector(to lifebond +prot spirit the tank) and one healer to help deal with spikes and damage in general.
Paragon: Great overall support character. "They're on fire" is absolutely great with SF elementalists. Signet of Return is absolutely essential when your res sigs don't refresh until the end (after you kill the boss). Angelic Bond makes your prot monk's job much easier.
Ranger: Generally the one who brings the Winter + Greater Conflag, can ditch mesmer secondary for rit secondary and bring further defenses, or can spec in offense in stead.
Ritualist: Not too sure on these, since Shelter and Union fall way too quickly. I have heard of other people using them with success though.
Necro: The only defensive role I can think of for a Necro is Biping your casters and monks, which is extremely helpful, perhaps wells too, although their use is limited.
Elementalist: I've heard people having success using wards to mitigate damage, not something I've seen personally though.

Damage/Disruption(3-4):
Elementalist: Standard SF/MS setup works well. SF is pretty much the best damage a elementalist can dish out. It's not the player's fault that A-net pretty much made SF one of the only choices if you want to do decent damage. Snares(water elemenalists) are extremely useful in the Stygian Veil.
Mesmer: Spiritual Pain + Mistrust are an excellent source of armor penetrating damage, addional skill slots can be focused on caster hate (generally the casters are the ones you have to worry about the most, especially the monks).
Rangers: Trapping is good here for overall damage and snaring. Choking Gas is excellent at disrupting casters and preventing a lot of damage by preventing them from casting those spells in the first place.
Necro: Most of the mobs are going to be highly packed, so SS would work wonders. Disease would be handy to have around too.

I mean, this in my opinion is extremely balanced. Every class plays a role, and a lot of classes can be subbed out for other classes. The only class I think that is ABSOLUTELY needed is probably a monk, but that's generally true for most teams.

You're exactly right on all points here.

One note on the assassin tank idea: as someone who plays an assassin extensively (among my other characters), I think this *could* be pulled off, but would be VERY difficult, since once it expires your tank is now left with ~50-60hp. With good group timing, though, it could work brilliantly--if the assassin attracts most/all of the aggro, this will give your elementalists time to get meteor showers going, or better yet rangers get choking gas up. If there is voice communication involved, the assassin can tell the group when shadow form is about to expire, allowing the monks time to begin on those big heals, maybe have a Paragon throw "Incoming!" up, etc.

However, you're going to need a guild/alliance group to try this because I really can't see pick-up groups willing to take the chance.