Curse

XvArchonvX · Dec 06, 2006, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordDeArnise

Got a caster? Backfire and Anti-spell interrupts.

Got a melee incoming? Empathy, Spirit of Failure, & Clumsiness

Need a quick charge? Power Drain & Mantra of Recall

Then there's my all-time Mesmer Favorite...Shatter Hex...take a hex out of a melee in a wad of adjacent mobs...massive AoE damage.

MESMERS RULE!

It never seems to fail that someone makes a point like this to argue for mesmers in PvE, when the fact is that these skills will take down one enemy. They may even take down that enemy rather quickly, but in many areas that consist of massive mobs, taking one enemy at a time is incredibly slow. Take into account the long recharges of skills like Shatter Hex, and you aren't left with much that contributes to this type of environment. If it was just one enemy charging you at a time, then mesmers might be king, but since it's tons of monsters at once, eles are generally found to be the prof of choice.

Lumenil · Dec 06, 2006, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

It never seems to fail that someone makes a point like this to argue for mesmers in PvE, when the fact is that these skills will take down one enemy. They may even take down that enemy rather quickly, but in many areas that consist of massive mobs, taking one enemy at a time is incredibly slow. Take into account the long recharges of skills like Shatter Hex, and you aren't left with much that contributes to this type of environment. If it was just one enemy charging you at a time, then mesmers might be king, but since it's tons of monsters at once, eles are generally found to be the prof of choice.

Actually, shatter hex recharge is only 10 seconds, the same of its new elite enhanced version, Hex Eater Vortex. And you seem to ignore all the others new AoE mesmer skills, like Spiritual Pain, Shared Burden, Mistrust, Mirror of Disechantment, Panic (this one actually not new).. Anyway, you forget how useful is, even against a massive mob, being able to quickly shoutdown a monk npc.

XvArchonvX · Dec 06, 2006, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lumenil

Actually, shatter hex recharge is only 10 seconds, the same of its new elite ehanced version, Hex Eater Vortex. And you seem to ignore all the others new AoE mesmer skills, like SP, Shared Burden, Mistrust, Mirror of Disechantment, Panic (this one actually not new).. Anyway, you forget how useful is, even against a massive mob, being able to quickly shoutdown a monk npc.

Typically, I've found it much more efficient to simply prevent hexes with something like an obsid flesh tank. Even if Shatter hex were to be used, it would be more efficient to put it on a necro that wouldn't have to dedicate skills on his skill bar to energy management due to soul reaping. As far as hex removal there are many other choices that are more energy efficient in terms of removing hexes.

Also, why shutdown a monk with mesmer skills when you could just drop a MS and take down the monk along with all adjacent enemies as well? On top of this, many new areas don't even have monk enemies. One of the best examples is the Stygian area. For most of this area, you won't encounter a monk until you hit a boss. Stygian Hungers for example are essentially uber touch rangers. Both mesmer and melee shutdown is pretty useless against these enemies and even diversion would do little since they have 4 different touch skills.

What it comes down to is that a group with good nukers and a good tank will be able to take down a group of enemies faster than a mesmer can, regardless of the class encountered. Even if mesmer skills were a better choice, a N/Me would be better suited due to their incredible energy management via soul reaping.

Until there really becomes an area where fast casting is more important than soul reaping, the necro will likely remain as a wiser choice than a mesmer for any roles that may be considered by a mesmer.

Ximm · Dec 06, 2006, 10:57 PM // 22:57

For PvE I run a promise nuke build, Me/A. It can really tear through mobs. It would be interesting to see a group of mesmers with this build

Assasins Promise (E)(gives energy and recharges all skills when hexed mob dies)
Lightbringers Gaze
Spiritual Pain
Unnatural Signet
Empathy
Backfire
Diversion/Guilt/Shatter Hex/Wastrels Worry
Res Sig

Njaiguni Blaze · Dec 07, 2006, 12:51 AM // 00:51

EVERY PROFFESSION IS REPLACABLE BY ANOTHER PROFFESION
I use a domination mesmer in DoA and am constantly tweaking her. (My mesmer makes me neglect all my other proffs.) Skills involve empathy, backfire, guilt, hex eater vortex, shatter ench (that's a big one there).
About why bringing a mesmer to shutdown a monk when a MS can do it, well, MS=AoE which makes mobs run (the knockdowns only help to a certain level, and I've seen far too many ppl using MS the wrong way, at the wrong time. When you bring a mesmer with frustration/arcane conundrum and PD for example, u can totally make the monk useless. (of course there is energy denial, skill denial, and awesome dmg too, this was just an example) One or two MS aren't enough to bring a monk down, and there will still be heals. When u prevent the monks from healing, it'll be more effecient imo. I also pwn the 5second cast if I were to go fast cast ele. Also, the builds I bring are mostly to take out both casting and martial foes. (and heck, if I want to focus on killing/shutting down something particular, I can do that too)
And energy? I never had any problem with that, spirit of failure and guilt are just two of the whopping energy gaining skills. Some have got a long recharge, but we got spells/stances/enchantments for that too.
Lastly, I would like to say that it is more likely that you get a more experienced player by bringing a mesmer in stead of a warrior, ranger or necromancer, cus the ppl I've seen around there still swear by Mending (seriously, not joking, saw 4 of them there) Barrage (I'm not even gonna comment on that) and being a MM (-_-). And for all the nukers out there, for Dwayna's sake, throw out (arcane) echo, bring glyph of renewal or some other faster regenner.

Please cut the slack about one proffesion being inferior to another, cus like I said in my first sentence, you can tell things about every proffesion that makes them inferior to other proffessions.

PS, I've been thinking about going Signet of Illusions Bonder, so I can cut the monks some slack

Lumenil · Dec 07, 2006, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Typically, I've found it much more efficient to simply prevent hexes with something like an obsid flesh tank. Even if Shatter hex were to be used, it would be more efficient to put it on a necro that wouldn't have to dedicate skills on his skill bar to energy management due to soul reaping. As far as hex removal there are many other choices that are more energy efficient in terms of removing hexes.

I think you completely miss the point of shatter hex and hex eater vortex.. these skills simply suck at hex removing.. there are far better skills for that. These skills are for damage dealing! at 15 domination, casting shatter hex on an hexed tank, quickly deals 120 armor ignoring damage to all foes near the tank. Hex eater vortex adds a nice aoe enchant stip to that. And no, you cant bring those skills on your necro, because 15-16 domination is a little different than 9-10, and since these skills are conditional, they require fast casting or, by the time the slow necro has finished casting, the hex could naturally be expired.

LordDeArnise · Dec 07, 2006, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Typically, I've found it much more efficient to simply prevent hexes with something like an obsid flesh tank. Even if Shatter hex were to be used, it would be more efficient to put it on a necro that wouldn't have to dedicate skills on his skill bar to energy management due to soul reaping. As far as hex removal there are many other choices that are more energy efficient in terms of removing hexes.

Also, why shutdown a monk with mesmer skills when you could just drop a MS and take down the monk along with all adjacent enemies as well? On top of this, many new areas don't even have monk enemies. One of the best examples is the Stygian area. For most of this area, you won't encounter a monk until you hit a boss. Stygian Hungers for example are essentially uber touch rangers. Both mesmer and melee shutdown is pretty useless against these enemies and even diversion would do little since they have 4 different touch skills.

What it comes down to is that a group with good nukers and a good tank will be able to take down a group of enemies faster than a mesmer can, regardless of the class encountered. Even if mesmer skills were a better choice, a N/Me would be better suited due to their incredible energy management via soul reaping.

Until there really becomes an area where fast casting is more important than soul reaping, the necro will likely remain as a wiser choice than a mesmer for any roles that may be considered by a mesmer.

Sounds like typical cookie-cutter team setups to me, save for the N/Me. Obsidian Flesh is nice for a tanking warrior, but remember that a good mesmer will Shatter Enchantments, and you see alot of PvE mesmers use it in NF. Meteor Shower, of course, also helps, but Ele's have to hope that they're not interrupted by a spiking mesmer or someone with interrupts while casting it, plus whether they cast it successfully or not, they still get some exhaustion and the targeted mobs have to stay still long enough for the first KD to take place, which ppl have to hope the melees, minions, and pets will do. Shatter Hex is quicker, and much quicker with enough pts in Fast Casting; so it's very handy when your melees are bombarded with hexes.

Now combine a good mesmer with your favorite N/Me's, nukers, tanks, monks, and a good ranger. Now there's a formidable group in my books. Besides, if everyone wanted cookie-cutter setups, noone, including myself, would play a mesmer in the first place.

Lumenil · Dec 07, 2006, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ximm

For PvE I run a promise nuke build, Me/A. It can really tear through mobs. It would be interesting to see a group of mesmers with this build

Assasins Promise (E)(gives energy and recharges all skills when hexed mob dies)
Lightbringers Gaze
Spiritual Pain
Unnatural Signet
Empathy
Backfire
Diversion/Guilt/Shatter Hex/Wastrels Worry
Res Sig

This is great! Tried, works pretty fine.

LicensedLuny · Dec 07, 2006, 03:31 AM // 03:31

For the record, I'm in the "humans playing mesmer primaries well are great" club here. I'm in the "humans playing anything well are great" club, too. And I don't think the OP is asking why we don't all use mesmers to replace all the eles and necros ... they're asking why more teams don't use mesmers with the eles and necros.

I normally wouldn't reply to such a topic, not having anything more to add, but Wildi's post caught my eye, and I apologize for going slightly off topic here ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wildi

DoA or not, usually you fight hight lvl mobs (lvl 24 - 28) not low lvl 20 like in pvp games. Those mobs have more health, more energy and deal more damage. That means health/energy drain does not work well because mobs have a high energy pool, did you interrupt one mob three times he will continue and cast a fourth spell to damage you.

IIRC, all of my characters have always had the same base energy pool, regardless of health. The max health goes up with level, but you have the same base energy (and regen rate) at level 20 that you had at level 1. The base pool max and the regen depends on primary class. So why would a level 28 monk have a larger energy pool than a level 20 monk?

I also doubt they have any higher level weapon/item bonus energy than we do, or someone would've gotten such a drop by now. (+10 base from staves, +5 staff head mod, +12 base from offhands, with inscriptions now the possibility of another +5 on staves and wands, not counting the bonuses with neg. regen.)

Has anyone tested the lvl 24 or 28 mobs and found for sure they have more energy than a lvl 20?

I'm certainly far from pro at playing mesmer or e-denial specifically, but the few times I've tried e-denial on an AI mob, it's seemed to work alright. I'm talking about regular mobs, not bosses. Some bosses seem to have extra e-regen to go with their extra health regen, though.

Cheers,
Luny

Anarkii · Dec 07, 2006, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by LicensedLuny

Has anyone tested the lvl 24 or 28 mobs and found for sure they have more energy than a lvl 20?

No, the base energy pool for the mobs is fixed as well, depending on their primary classes. I used to a run a solo SV/AV Spirit Bond build against level 28 Shiroken(who used Famine), and from the time taken for them to reach 0 energy, and start taking damage, I'm pretty confident they have the same energy as level 20s.

Bosses do have a higher pool, and/or higher energy regen, I'm pretty sure.

Also ele mobs will obviously have more energy than normal because of their energy storage attribute being presumably higher.

So, in other words, e-denial isnt worthless in highlevel PvE.

XvArchonvX · Dec 07, 2006, 06:03 AM // 06:03

@ the Shatter Hex argument:
even a good shatter hex is still limited in damage dealing potential because it is one spike that comes every 10 seconds max. If your tank is not hexed, then you do no damage. MS and other AoE skills deal much more damage even after armor buffs. The SF eles I ran with in the Stygian area did about 42 damage per SF + burning (which is armor ignoring) about every 3 seconds.

As for the interupt and other drawbacks with MS, they are easily preventable in a controlled environment (which comes with a good tank and a group that communicates). If you are in an area with mesmer interupts, then Mantra of Resolve is a simple choice since there won't be many interupts after the initial cast due to repeated KD from multiple MS.

Even if Shatter Hex was a better choice for one to bring, why would you have a mesmer primary take it over a N/Me? The extra damage that could come from runes would be nice, but for a mesmer to be able to recast it along with other spells at their recharge, they would need to take up spots on their skill bar for energy management. A necro on the other hand only needs soul reaping.

I will admit that there will probably be some areas where a mesmer primary might work well, but unfortunately this will likely be the exception to the rule.

@ Lord DeArnise:
Yes, it is a pretty typical cookie cutter like build in the way that it works. This is because the way A-net has set up many high level areas, a wall/nuke combo is simply the most controlled environment that allows maximum damage and defense. I also think you were a bit confused since I wasn't talking about a warrior using Obsid Flesh. I was refering to a E/Me. The build allows the ele to be unaffected by spells (therefore never hexed) and with Mantra of Resolve and Mantra of Concentration, they aren't interupted. The enchantment is not stripped since most enchant stripping is from a spell. This build is not intended to be used against enemies with signet or other non-spell enchant strip skills. With a Rt/R support, Weapon of Quickening on the Obsid 'tank', Obsid Flesh can be continually cast with no down time. Also Symbiosis can be dropped to give the 'tank' huge health to be able to withstand life stealing type skills (such at Stygian Hungers that use necro touch skills). A Healer's Boon monk can cast a single Dwayna's Kiss and heal the 'tank' for 800-1,000+ health easily if life stealing is encountered.

If I may back up for a bit, I should let it be known that I am not a mesmer hater by any means. I only believe that there are many situations in PvE that mesmers are not the most efficient choice. In PvP and several specific PvE areas, however, a mesmer can be a very strong member of the party (*cough* prophecies monk bosses *cough*)

Lumenil · Dec 07, 2006, 08:03 AM // 08:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

The extra damage that could come from runes would be nice, but for a mesmer to be able to recast it along with other spells at their recharge, they would need to take up spots on their skill bar for energy management. A necro on the other hand only needs soul reaping.

Have u seen this build:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ximm

Assasin's Promise (E)(gives energy and recharges all skills when hexed mob dies)
Lightbringers Gaze
Spiritual Pain
Unnatural Signet
Empathy
Backfire
Diversion/Guilt/Shatter Hex/Wastrels Worry
Res Sig

Assasin's Promise provides energy management AND istant recharging for all skills.. a mesmer can literaly spam AoE damage skills like Spiritual Pain, Mistrust, Shatter Hex, Lightbrigers Gaze.. then the foe dies, and the mesmer gain 17 energy at 12 Deadly Arts.. all his skills are recharged, and if he has previously used Guilt too, he can start again without pausing. I have tested, and it works, given than u are smart enough casting the hex on a foe you are sure is dieing. And obviously this option is not available for a n/me, since it's an assasin elite.

Anyway, even without this build, mesmer classic energy management skills are never wasted slots like you seem to believe. If Power Drain (the most effective non-elite mesmer e-management skill) interrupts an Invoke Lighting spell, do u think its a wasted slot? Or if Guilt prevents a Gale to be casted on one of our monks, do you think the slot is wasted? You really cant understand the way a mesmer works, how shutting down the enemy, doesnt matter if a player or a npc, can be even more effective than just damaging him.

Njaiguni Blaze · Dec 07, 2006, 10:34 AM // 10:34

Archon, please, leave us mesmers alone.

I can go tell bad stuff about a necromancer too, but I'm not gonna do that. In stead, I'm gonna analyse some energy management skills from the mesmer with you, which in your point of view will only take place in the skillbar which can be used for "better spells". I've taken 16 Dom and 10 Insp in mind (just cus it's my usual setup).

One of my favourites: Guilt [5e] - Prevents an enemy spell that targets a foe (not your foe) and steals(!) 15 energy.
Another favourite: Spirit of Failure [10e] - Foe has a 25% chance to miss attacks, when it does so, you gain 4 energy. And before you say, 25% isn't much, try it, it is.
Shame [10e] - Prevents an enemy spell that targets an ally (not your ally) and steals 15 energy
Drain Enchantment [10e] - Removes an ench and you gain 15 energy
Power Drain [5e] - Interrupts a spell and you gain 21(!!!) energy
Hex Eater Signet - Removes a hex from target and all adjacent allies and gives you 5 energy for each. Since you got a tank which takes all aggro, just tell the team to ball up.
Mantra of Recall [E] [10e] - Gives you 20 energy when it ends or is removed. The energy cost of this spell is not a point, you can cast it before battle.
Drain Delusion [5e] - Removes a hex from target foe, foe loses 4 energy, you gain 8. Use this on a foe which you just cast phantom pain on for a deep wound, or on a foe which will die soon.
Ether Lord [5e] - Lose all energy (so don't cast it when you got more than 5 energy XD), target foe has -2 energy regen, you get +2 energy regen for 8 seconds= bout 18 energy.
Channeling [5e]= OK, maybe some people are scared to use it in the DoA, but with enough control you can get this spell to work good.
Leech Signet, Lyssa's Aura, Energy Tap, Energy Drain Ether signet, Mantra of Frost, Mantra of Flame, Mantra of Lightning, Mantra of Earth, Power Leech etc.

Thank you

PS: Long Recharges? We got Psychic Distraction (dangg, I love that spell) or Mantra of Recovery for that. And then we can use the other proffesion skills too.

Njaiguni Blaze · Dec 07, 2006, 10:37 AM // 10:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

In PvP and several specific PvE areas, however, a mesmer can be a very strong member of the party (*cough* prophecies monk bosses *cough*)

This made me laugh, especially cus I play my mesmer, well, all the time and found it much more fun, much more use and much more variety. You say you're no mesmer hater, but you surely sound like one

(Don't care if you are, I don't get ticked by things like that, it's a game

)

BTW, need a fast and effecient ress? Bring a mesmer.
Oh, and did we all forget Essence Bond?

Lady Callingwell · Dec 07, 2006, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Njaiguni Blaze

This made me laugh, especially cus I play my mesmer, well, all the time and found it much more fun, much more use and much more variety. You say you're no mesmer hater, but you surely sound like one

(Don't care if you are, I don't get ticked by things like that, it's a game

)

No, he just states the fact that a mesmer is crappy in a 100 % solely dps oriented build against "dumb" (ai controlled) enemies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Njaiguni Blaze

BTW, need a fast and effecient ress? Bring a mesmer.
Oh, and did we all forget Essence Bond?

Glyph of sacrifice + res chant

Njaiguni Blaze · Dec 07, 2006, 12:11 PM // 12:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Callingwell

Glyph of sacrifice + res chant

30 second recharge

Don't want that on my group, since when the tank dies, many people tend to finish off an enemy (even saying retreat doesn't work) and die utterly. Besides, when do people quit the most? Right, when they are waiting for a ress. Sadly most of the parties I group with are omg, 3 ppl dead, cyas, not waiting for you. And then to think it was they're own fault to die in the first place.

XvArchonvX · Dec 07, 2006, 12:24 PM // 12:24

@ Lumenil:
Yup, I've ran that build on my own mesmer. It's very nice in theory, but in many groups, enemies tend to all fall down at once from SS and MS. When this is the case, the mesmer is left doing one single damage spike from LB and SP.

Mesmer energy management is not always a wasted slot, but when it can be replaced by skills that better suit the massive mob-fest that is PvE in many areas, then there are better choices. If interupts are needed, a Choking Gas + Practiced Stance ranger will be more effective with their AoE interupt. They can also take Savage Shot for a controlled interupt when needed as well that has a faster recharge. If your monk is being targetted by an ele, then stopping one gale from one enemy every 30 seconds won't make a terrible difference in a sea of many other eles. Also if these skills are the source of energy, then energy management is not as stable as it may be with other classes. If you face a mob with no casters, then you are facing them with much less energy. If you miss a P-drain (because yes, humans don't land every interupt they attempt), then you lose out on your damage potential. If your target dies before casting through Guilt, then you lose out on your damage potential. While any class has energy management that is conditional to an extent, the environment in many PvE areas make other classes more stable in their management.

I understand that an enemy that is shutdown does no damage, but there's no getting around the fact that in late areas where there are huge mobs that attack at once, shutting down one enemy means nothing. This is why groups bring MS and Earthbind and/or a Choking Gas + Practiced Stance ranger. This tactic allows for AoE mob control.

The tactic of having one person tank all the enemies while rest of the team supports the tank and nukes the grouped up enemies may seem cookie cutter, but when facing large high level mobs, it is simply more efficient to control the enemy and have your allies specialized so that they may complete their task in support of the group as effectively as possible. Beyond this tactic, there isn't necessarily a whole lot cookie cutter about the group. The tank can be a warrior, it can be a Shadow Form tag team, it can be an Obsid Flesh ele, and it could probably be some other build that hasn't been discovered yet. Rits often play the wild card since their spirits work well as a backup that effects the whole group. Can mesmers eventually fit in here somewhere? Proably so, but likely to a limited degree.

I still find it sad that people think I'm bashing mesmers just because I don't think they are the best choice in every area. I've had my mesmer since early prophecies days, and have taken him through both PvE and PvP. There are exceptions to every rule, but unfortunately it has been my experience that by virtue of the mesmer's largely conditional strengths and weaknesses that they are not the most efficient choice in some circumstances.

I don't doubt that many mesmer skills such as the ones Njaiguni Blaze mentioned can be amazing, but they don't really fit into environments that consist of wave after wave of mobs. Psychic Distraction is fun, but why bring a mesmer with that skill when you can bring a Choking Gas ranger?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Njaiguni Blaze

BTW, need a fast and effecient ress? Bring a mesmer.

Glyph of Sac + Rez Chant from an E/Mo. 1 sec rez to full health every 30 seconds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Njaiguni Blaze

Oh, and did we all forget Essence Bond?

Nope, but you won't be using Assasin's Promise with a monk secondary. You also won't have much ability to use your secondary to be able to increase damage output (i.e. no Glyph of Renewal, etc.).

P.s. I hate to sound like the bad guy through all of this, but I really wish A-net would have set up the area differently so there were fewer enemies faced at a time that were harder to kill. If this was the case, there would need to be a more diverse strategy used to bring them down and a mesmer would be an excellent ally to take in this sort of the situation. Unfortunately, it's just another mob slaughter like the Deep.

boxterduke · Dec 07, 2006, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Mesmers are great in the new areas. The problem is not with mesmers, it's with people that are stuck in their holy trinity of W-Mo-E.
It's pre-aoenerf party logic all over again!

Could not have said it better myself.
90% of PuGs do not know what are they doing.
Hell I was at Ruins of Morah with my Mesmer last week and did a "Mesmer LFG" for a bit with no invites, I grabbed my heroes and henches and got masters. I came back to the town and still saw the same people still looking for monks/nukers, I laughed and left the town.

Njaiguni Blaze · Dec 07, 2006, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Nope, but you won't be using Assasin's Promise with a monk secondary. You also won't have much ability to use your secondary to be able to increase damage output (i.e. no Glyph of Renewal, etc.).

Psychich Distraction pwns Glyph of Renewal

XvArchonvX · Dec 07, 2006, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by boxterduke

Could not have said it better myself.
90% of PuGs do not know what are they doing.
Hell I was at Ruins of Morah with my Mesmer last week and did a "Mesmer LFG" for a bit with no invites, I grabbed my heroes and henches and got masters. I came back to the town and still saw the same people still looking for monks/nukers, I laughed and left the town.

Yea, I agree there, lots of pugs don't understand the potential of many classes. Mesmers and Assasins are great additions to a group for Ruins of Morah. Even though I don't think that mesmers are the most well suited class for many situations, I don't think that this should give most groups an excuse to not take one. The only places I would not take a mesmer to would be end game areas that consist of tons of big mobs attacking in waves, but for most PvE, a mesmer can do just fine.