Curse

Sir Mad · Dec 05, 2006, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Finding a good group for Tomb runs has been a little difficult lately so I thought I'd post my thoughts on this run. Group should have 5 B/P rangers with pets, bows interupts, degen, barrage and Faverable Winds or Winnowing...

My R/Mo looks like...

Beast Mastery 1
Expertise 7
Wilderness Survival 11
Marksmanship 16

Savage Shot, Apply Posion, Barrage, Troll Unguent, Comfort Animal, Charm Animal, Winnowing, Rebirth

Sorry to be rude but that build is awfull. Apply Poison? Barrage removes all preps. Take a supportive skill instead: blindness, hex remover, second interupt, whatever. 7 in expertise? You need 9: barraging for 4 energy per shot with let you dry pretty quickly. 11 in Ws for the sole troll unguent? 3 seconds to cast in the middle of a fight: it's not worth it - that really won't save you from an eviscerate spike: only your monk can.

EDIT - And yeah, as other said: OoP and OoV don't stack: you try to keep them both active - you actually nulify the effect of OoV.

Ruphfus · Dec 05, 2006, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinky Elf

Deadly Swam, Bone Horror, Bone Fiend, Flesh Golem, Blood of the Master, Verata's Sacrifice, Healing Breeze and Rebirth

WRONG... Fiends? WRONG. Minions are used for Body Blocking, and DEATH NOVA which i do not see in your skill bar. Please do not bring Fiends into Tombs, bring Horrors, and Vamp Horrors.

Sofonisba · Dec 06, 2006, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruphfus

WRONG... Fiends? WRONG. Minions are used for Body Blocking, and DEATH NOVA which i do not see in your skill bar. Please do not bring Fiends into Tombs, bring Horrors, and Vamp Horrors.

What's with people starting out all their posts with "WRONG?" Real nice.

If it works for that person, more power to 'em. I personally like Fiends. I usually have half-and-half melee and ranged minions and it works very well. Pets assist with the blocking also, we usually don't have a problem with things breaking through the line.

Pale Valsharess · Dec 07, 2006, 11:14 AM // 11:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by zling

your orders doesnt need both OoP and OoV, just stick with OoV with a 20% longer enchantments weapon and 20/20 off hand or a 20/20 wand with 20/20 off hand. however I wont recommend awaken the blood as the sacrifice will be too high unless you're very good and careful orders necro to not over sacrifice yourself and not get near the mobs. and it's only an extra 2 dmg...
I recommend party affecting skills such as heal party, aegis and extinguish as it doesnt force you to get near your team and the mobs...
..

This thread couldn’t be more relevant to me.

Recently I started to play as an order necro in the Tombs. Because I have only Prophecies, my build is:
Heal other, Heal party, Order of Pain, Awaken the blood, Order of the Vampire, Blood ritual, Mending and Rebirth.
Blood magic – 16, Soul reaping – 13, Healing prayers – 8.

Now, there are several things I want to say about this area and teams, but I’ll start with your remark about usefulness or uselessness of any particular spell. What is going on in reality is that most of the time it’s NOT order necro decision (unless he is a leader). Do you know how many times I was told to put Order of Pain, even if it well known that it doesn’t stack and it will have to go on turns with OoV? But, actually, if people know what to do with their ranger chars, it’s goes well as well. In my opinion, if your hp is higher then 300, there is no need to afraid from Awaken the Blood. It doesn’t create dangerous situations (if you stay out of combat range of course) and if you need some hp boost, always can spam Heal Party that also help monk and rest of the team.
About mending: Didn’t see any particular usefulness for me, but it doesn’t hurt either.

Something about the whole attitude of creating a party. I am actually relatively new to GW. Played as warrior on my boyfriend account for 3 months and now have 3 chars on my own account, also for 3 months. Only my necro is close for getting a protector of Tyria title (2 missions+bonus left). And I still haven’t been in UW or FoW.
So, by standards of lot of players, I am called a noob.

I realize that this is not a correct thread to complain/whine or anything along the line, so I’ll get to the point. Even considering everything that I’ve wrote about, I think that I am pretty good as a necro (on my first time at Tombs our team succeeded to get till the end I I’ve got 2 greens). I spend time reading this forum and guildwiki and try to experiment with builds or correct positioning. But I have no doubt that I still have lot of things to learn. And I am willing, but I am not willing to apologies for the fact that I bought this game a little later then others.

But unfortunately, in lot of cases (not all of them!) my abilities are measured by the amount of my XP.

So I am also looking for a party with whom I’ll be able to do Tombs and maybe try UW and FoW. If you a newbie like me who is tired of pointless remarks which are based on frustration, or an experienced player who have no problem to be “adventurous”, will be happy to party with you. pm me. I don’t want to intervene in the flow of this thread, so if it isn’t relevant - I’ll open a new one. Thanks.

Sophitia Leafblade · Dec 07, 2006, 12:14 PM // 12:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruphfus

WRONG... Fiends? WRONG. Minions are used for Body Blocking, and DEATH NOVA which i do not see in your skill bar. Please do not bring Fiends into Tombs, bring Horrors, and Vamp Horrors.

This isnt a neccessity, bringing Fiends can be just as effective as horrors, although i do agree vampiric horrors are better still. ive managed to on mulitple occassions make the whole way through Tombs with fiends. There are multiple variations that work. Think, outside the box.

Ive also found a few other skills that have on occassion come in handy, ie using predatory season with helps the minions stay alive. This is a double edged sword however that if used incorrectly results in more trouble than its worth, buts its worth considering.

Instead of one of the rangers, has anyone tried a full blown Paragon there yet, who uses skills like, Anthem of Flame, There on Fire, Go for the eyes etc. Since it would help boost the minions and party members damage output very nicly. I havnt tried this myself but im curious to know if others have tried it.

Sir Mad · Dec 07, 2006, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Quote:

So, by standards of lot of players, I am called a noob.

Sorry but that's not standards.

For example the standard for barragers would be (assuming they go R/Mo as most of the rangers in the Tombs):

Marksmanship 16
Expertise 9
... the rest of the points in WS and BM, depending on your gameplay (WS for troll, BM for Comfort mainly, but also the damage dealt by your pet)

1/ Barrage
2/ Interupt
3/ Utility (another interupt, spirit, throw dirt, dust trap, hex remover)
4/ Whirling Defense (or another defensive skill)
5/ Troll (or another defensive skill, such as Throw Dirt)
6/ Comfort Animal
7/ Charm Animal
8/ Rez

You go with 7 in expertise, which is not a breakpoint. You use a preparation when preparations are removed by barrage. You almost max WS for the sole WS. Etc. Yeah, I'm sure it would work. But it's a bad build. Last time I went to the Tombs (as a monk), I quickly noticed one of the rangers had 3 sup runes (or 2 sups without sup vigor/fortitude mod - not sure). The guy had an awfull build, probably 60% DP at the end. Still we made it. It doesn't mean he was good.

Effendi Westland · Dec 07, 2006, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pale Valsharess

So, by standards of lot of players, I am called a noob.

No, not by my standards. You have 16 in blood, which is more then some order necros who want to join a B/P team. You also adjust your skillbar to what the team wants, this is also not noobish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pale Valsharess

About mending: Didn’t see any particular usefulness for me, but it doesn’t hurt either.

Mending is used to cancel health sac. Order necros who use it typically run with <200 hp to increase it effectiveness.

Sofonisba · Dec 07, 2006, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

Instead of one of the rangers, has anyone tried a full blown Paragon there yet, who uses skills like, Anthem of Flame, There on Fire, Go for the eyes etc. Since it would help boost the minions and party members damage output very nicly. I havnt tried this myself but im curious to know if others have tried it.

Well...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sofonisba on page one of this thread

We did bring a paragon (w/ pet) over the weekend, and Anthem of Flame and some other skills worked nicely on Barrage hits; I was monking so I couldn't tell if things were dying more quickly, but all the rangers seemed enthusiastic about it.

Losttoapathy · Dec 08, 2006, 01:05 PM // 13:05

The Paragon thing sounds quite interesting actually. I, myself don't see anything wrong with your typical B/P team. In saying that it would be nice to see if i sped up the killing in any way. Because, well, after you've been in there a while b/ping it can get a little boring and slow.

When I B/P there, however, I try to fill as many points with expertise as I can. I see really no point whatsoever in wasting points in beast mastery when they could be better spent elsewhere. I.e. Expertise. I usually go with 16 marks the whole time for maximum damage anyway. Then I put as many points as it takes in WS to get troll up to +8(10, I think...correct me if I'm wrong.)And I put about 12 in expertise using a major rune because the extra energy is really important for me...since I spam barrage like there's no tomorrow when I'm there. Any spare points I have left over I put in Beast Mastery...as I don't see the point in it as pets are going to die anyway and they're only there as a meat shield. Okay so this leaves me with a relatively low amount of xp but if you're reasonably smart and know when to back off when the going gets tough, you really shouldn't die. I don't think any extra HP gained off of not using sup/major runes would make much difference for me in my opinion.

Anyway, I know there are lots of B/P builds, etc on these forums already. Just giving my two cents is all.

Jason Xll · Dec 09, 2006, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Mad

Apply Poison? Barrage removes all preps.

I believe apply poison is often brought by one of the rangers in the "utility slot" to help take the wurms down faster. Imo it is quite effective.

Mad5cout · Dec 12, 2006, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Okay, so as I am one of the only paragons in the Tombs that I have seen (and actively trying to find a spot in the BP groups), I thought I would post my findings. They really are quite effective - so much so that I may change my standard build yet again.

This build will also be duplicated under the campfire. I will include brief skill descriptions and build specifics so you all understand what it is doing and how it works.

The BP Paragon Build:

I was using a Feathered Longbow with various mods on it.

12 Leadership + 1 Minor Rune (necessary for energy regen)
12 command + 3 Sup Rune
3 Marksmanship

Skills (Descriptions are stats based on above attribute levels)
Barrage
Make Your Time (+1 adrenaline for each party member in earshot. Max 4)
Anthem of Envy (10 sec. - +20 Damage vs enemies ^50% HP)
Find Their Weakness (combined with GFTE, gives you deep wound)
Go For The Eyes (all party members get 75% chance to crit on next attack)
Charm Animal
Comfort Animal
Never Surrender (could also be res sig) (10 sec of +5 HP regen for all party members below 75% HP)

First it is important to mention that your Barrage is not there to do damage but to give you very fast adrenaline boosts. Combined with Make your time, you can keep GFTE and Anthem of Envy charged almost constantly. Because these are both adrenaline skills, when you cast them, the Leadership rank (and the surrounding party members) replenish your energy instantly. You create a type of feed back loop that is sustainable for quite some time.

I have found the pet to get in the way a little because when it dies your adrenaline goes down to 0 and all your skills go through the standard recharge. It is also sometimes hard to fit in the 10 energy charm animal skill (with no energy boost or adrenaline benefit), but it works out fine.

I was puller for my group which makes good sense for two reasons, Paragons have a higher Armor Rating than Rangers and take a sudden spike better and, more importantly, you can start by casting Make your Time and GFTE charges instantly (I don't cast it yet though). One barrage on your first pull is good enought to get envy up to full. I cast that giving all barrages +20 damage for the next 10 seconds. Then I barrage to get GFTE up to full again and then cast that. Then barrage my adrenaline up for those two skills until Make your time is charged again.

Never Surrender is just handy to help the monk when needed and keep you alive when you are pulling and the monk is a little slow to the healing after the initial spike.

I have only tried this in tombs but you can be sure I am going to try this in general PvE and even the DOA.

Happy Hunting

Mad5cout · Dec 12, 2006, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Further BP Paragon results:

Okay so I tested this build with an even better BP group today in the tombs and had some enlightening results. Here is some of the new info, the good and the bad:

Good:
GFTE descripition says that it gives and additional chance to critical hit. If you combine this with the other rangers marksmanship, I am pretty sure you are at 100% of the arrows doing crit damage. I found this to be VERY effective. There was a point in the third tomb where we drew A LOT of aggro and someone said, "Get ready to run!" But when you have 4 or more enemies clumped up, one barrage recharges GFTE instantly. I was able to spam it for EVERY barrage that went out and the ownage was evident. This was enough aggro that it would've normally killed most of a regular BP group on most occasions. I must note that this build works best in BP groups but any group that does a significant amout of physical damage would benefit. I'm not sure how you could test to see if this was having effects on the minions or not.

The Luke Warm:
I believe that Find Their Weakness + GFTE + barrage only gives deep wound to the enemy you targeted with your barrage. This is by no means conclusive but I think thats what I was seeing in the last run. In any case, it is very helpful when dealing with the worms in Tombs. I am alos sure this would be great vs bosses in other parts of the game.

The Bad
Apparently Barrage removes Anthem of Envy even though it is a Chant and NOT a preparation. I will be following up on this in the Sardelac Sanctum and see if i can get developer reaction to this. They either need to fix that or if it was intentional, then they need to change Barrage's description to include Chants being removed. In either case, Shouts are not removed by barrage but I could not find an appropriate replacement for Envy - it would need to be an adrenaline skill to maintain the energy balance. It was having some effect as I noticed it did help - perhaps through the minions or those people not using barrage at that moment. In any case, if you were using this in a mixed PvE group Envy would still be very important. It is only in barrage groups where it becomes questionable.

Mad5cout · Dec 12, 2006, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad5cout

The Bad
Apparently Barrage removes Anthem of Envy even though it is a Chant and NOT a preparation. I will be following up on this in the Sardelac Sanctum and see if i can get developer reaction to this. They either need to fix that or if it was intentional, then they need to change Barrage's description to include Chants being removed. In either case, Shouts are not removed by barrage but I could not find an appropriate replacement for Envy - it would need to be an adrenaline skill to maintain the energy balance. It was having some effect as I noticed it did help - perhaps through the minions or those people not using barrage at that moment. In any case, if you were using this in a mixed PvE group Envy would still be very important. It is only in barrage groups where it becomes questionable.

After posting in the Sardelac Sanitarium, they politely pointed out that I am an idiot and misread the Envy description. Envy reads as "For 10 seconds, the next attack Skill used by each ally within earshot deals +5...17 damage against foes with more then [sic] 50% Health."

Mine actually adds 20 due to a rune, but the point is it effects the next attack skill. Being that most people in a BP group use barrage next, then it effects all arrows in that barrage. While for a mixed PvE group this may not be as effective given that it does not affect anyone not using an attack skill. This is actually exactly the opposite of what I was saying previously. My mistake.

So this build is a big plus for BP groups or any group using a lot of physical damage or attack skills. If you have FW, WW, and a Paragon running this build, you can rip through extremely fast with a group that knows what they are doing.

Nilator · Dec 12, 2006, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

It's sad that people can't run a decent orders necro these days. This is how it's supposed to be done:

Awaken the Blood
Order of the Vampire
Mending
Blood Ritual
Healing Breeze
Heal Party
Well of Blood (do not use unless the mm drops out)
Rebirth

A really easy order build w/ self healing and not 2x sacrifical health right here.

OoP
OoV
Blood Renewal
Blood Ritual
Well of Blood
Heal Party
Infuse health
Extinguish

Can replace Extinguish for Rebirth. IMO this works much better than your build.

Yobz · Dec 19, 2006, 05:24 AM // 05:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzo

Lightbringer title + Ligthbringers gaze is probably a very nice addition to B/P groups. Haven't tested if it works on the enemies in there.

LBG does not work on grasps/scythes found in tombs.

Carmina · Feb 20, 2007, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Used to farm the heck out of Tombs as a B/P.

5 B/Ps with Winno and FavWinds.
2 Necros... 1 MM and 1 SS
1 Monk

Cakewalk in less than an hour to Darkness with a team who knows what they're doing (and does not have anyone named Legolas in the party)...

Easy!

DeanBB · Feb 20, 2007, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Another option in place of the Orders necro is a Ritualist. Pulling monsters to the group is an ideal setup for them and the last B/P team our guild took into Tombs had that setup and it worked just as well. You get the offense and healing plus the spirits can draw some attacks from critters that break through, rather than an attack on the monk or whatever.

Our last Tombs run was 8 elementalists though, lotsa fun!

bungusmaximus · Feb 23, 2007, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carmina

(and does not have anyone named Legolas in the party)...

this one almost killed me.

Could ritualists be of any use in tombs btw? They have quite ok crowd nukes and weapon spells cant get removed by fingers of chaos. Would be nice to play around a little bit with stuff like the for example the following:

Shadowsong to blind grasps breaking through the lines
Nightmare weapon as extra life steal boost
Displacement/shelter/union
splinter weapon
etc. etc. any ideas?

pelmensilverwolf · Feb 24, 2007, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Hrm.. I see a lot of good builds and a lot of very poor builds on this board, so having done more than a thousand tombs runs I thought I'd weigh in on a few points!

1. Minion masters - Low level minions die too quickly. When I play as a MM in the tombs I run taste of death, blood of the master, signet of lost souls (or taste of pain if you're not nightfall), heal area, Flesh golem, shambling horror, vampiric horror, bone fiends. The point to this build is high level minions that don't die in a single hit. Keeping them out is easy, at no point except at the start of a level or after eating a full ms do I have less than 10. Shamblings turn into jaggeds when they die, so free energy and one less minion to summon. Vamps keep you healthy when using blood of the master, fiends hit hard from a distance.. nice if you balance your minions out, and flesh golem is a renewable resource that can tank. Signet of lost souls is _very_ nice in here.. 8 second recharge, but at 11 soul reaping it's 76hp and 8en restored when you use it, and there's often foes at less than 50%hp.

2. BP rangers - THROW DIRT! Gotta have it.. grasps spike too hard for a monk to heal you if they're down on energy. Distracting shot is a longer disable than savage shot, so better for shutting the wurms down. Poison is totally useless.. yes it's timed damage, but barrage + oop will do far, far more damage in a shorter time.. Having energy management problems? Zealous bowstring is very effective in here.. my ranger never runs out of energy in battle. For pulling, stack on whirling defense and troll ungent as well.. top it off with the 2 pet skills, barrage and rebirth... winnowing and fw can be split between the non pullers. In the event of no orders nec available, bring Conflagration. We've tried it a few times and the damage you deal is significantly increased against everything except terrorwebs... a good substitute IMO

3. Orders Nec - I run Oop, Oov, vampiric gaze, signet of lost souls, blood ritual, healing breeze, heal party, rebirth. I never need attention from the monk, and I can supply them energy when needed. Oop and Oov are situational. A good orders nec can keep them up one after the other almost infinitely, so no downtime for recharges. Signet of lost souls and vampiric gaze take care of most of the self healing, and you can toss in the occasional hp to help the monk along. Orders is a utility necro, not frontline fighter and relegating them to support in the tombs is effective.

4. Healing monk - Heal party, WoH, Healing breeze (sometimes), signet of rejuvenation, dwaynas kiss, extinguish.. it's pretty much open here as long as you have a competent orders necro. BR will cover up any energy depletion. If you don't aim for low energy high healing skills... dwaynas kiss and it's factions counterpart that I can't remember the name of are very effective, as is WoH.

5. Mending - Totally useless. Everything in there uses fingers of chaos which is an enchantment stripping spell on any class with monk as a primary or secondary. So N/Mo order necs will be stripped as well. That and don't forget all the chained souls can use strip enchantment as well :P Waste of time, space and energy IMO.

6. Variant groups - Nukers work, Ritualists work, 5 rangers and nothing else works... experiment! Heck, I've pulled this entire area with an orders necro without dying once.. it's a fun, easy area intended to ease people into the harder elite missions so have fun with it!

Edge Martinez · Feb 26, 2007, 07:42 AM // 07:42

I'm usually a puller in tombs and I'm one of those guys who pulls fast, as in while the group is fighting the 1 or 2 critters left, I'm past that and pulling the next mob in. Tombs for my groups take about 40-50 minutes from start to finish. Knowing this, the one person on the team that can ruin a fast moving tombs group is the Orders necro. I know Order of the Vampire is a nice skill to have up, but we can survive awhile without it. I'd much rather the Orders necro keep BR constantly on the monk, and throw in OoV/OoP in between that. A good quick tombs group needs a powered up monk more than 2-3 seconds of OoV.

Also, sometimes someone else will call puller first, and the one thing that annoys me is that they pull with the bow. That's not needed anywhere in tombs. Sometimes the mobs don't bite. Sometimes they just end up fighting the pet and then go back to where they were. My advice is pull with your body. I run drakescale armor, and usually have some defensive skill. Furthermore, trust in your monk... maybe talk to him/her beforehand. When you pull, don't just get agro and run... get agro and get them to blow their first set of spells on you, so it's all on one person instead of spread out. Your teammates will whittle them down quick. Since Grasps usually reach you first, whirling defense + blind when they get close can set up real easy kills for your team. Also, don't run way past your allies when pulling the enemy in. Run just past the minions and open up with a shortbow (I run Ryver's). This will often times keep the enemy agro on you, making monking alot easier.

Lastly, for the MM's. It's my opinion you guys should be the first line of defense. When a puller is bringing in the mobs, he should pass minions before rangers or pets.

Anyhow, that's my advice. Not everyone will agree, but that's how we learn. I got my system by listening to rangers argue on here over how to pull in tombs.