Curse

Darth Kukulkan · Apr 04, 2007, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Yes discrimination is here, and it's a crappy thing...
I have an Elementalist, which belongs to the holy trinity category, and I am not proud of discrimination... I made an Assassin, which is certainly the most useless class in DoA (i really don't see any effective application for them, even a mesmer could do better job :s) is just not made for this type of "elite" zone : The true problem comes from the too many professions in GuildWars
Basically, the holy trinity can do any job quite easily, and the other professions are here to make some diversity in the meta game, but I have to say that my Sin is not really usefull for any group in PvE...
Elitism is another enormous problem : the DoA seems to follow the dark path of the HA, with ranks which is a bad thing : you can gain ranks with a noobish BoA sin in HA easily, it won't give you more experience

I think that most profession can play with fun, like a Ranger bonder, a restauration Elementalist, or anything fun, even a healer sin if it's fun : "elite" zones are just not made for this.
It is like there is 2 games in one : one fun, very fun, made of experiences, new builds, sometimes crappy, fun pve, fun pvp... and the other made of farmers, ultra rich players who have infinite time to sell stuff at ridiculous prices, elite in HA with their so-called bambis and wolvies, and a new elite PvE players : the dark side of GW.
And I'm affraid this will never change, it's the way it is, no revolution in the oligarchy, they rule, that's all

linh · Apr 04, 2007, 07:04 PM // 19:04

That's the problem with DoA as well as "hard" "high-end" pve areas due to ANet's wrong design.
They make area "harder" by making mobs have hax attribute point, high level armor, health, fast casting, plus environment effects but with a very simple or sucky skillbars. This will lead to, of course, gimmick build to beat it. And that's the reason why people only require those professions because it works for them.
About the elitism : requiring Lightbringer or higher title to be in group is just stupid but that's player-base who decides that, ANet can't do about that, really.

Amorfati87 · Apr 04, 2007, 07:27 PM // 19:27

I don't mind the trinity being the build of choice, I have at least 1 character of every profession, some professions I even have 3 or 4 characters of each (yeah I know I'm sick, I need help, but that's not the point).

What I object to is Urgoz and DoA. How can an area that has too many enemies with ridiculously high amounts of health and who unload a tremendous damage in one hit be fun and/or interesting.

I'd much prefer an area that you need to finesse a bit to get through. That takes a bit of brain power to get through. Not just mindlessly spamming Searing Flames, Glowing Gaze, Liquid Flame, with the occasional MS thrown in for good measure.

We've always been told that these areas are NOT for everyone, that they are for elite players, blah, blah, blah. How does using a build you got off guild wiki make you "elite"? Can somebody answer me that question?

Oh and when they say these areas are NOT for everyone, could they simply mean that the elite areas are only meant for Ele's, Warriors, Monks, with a token Necro thrown in? That if you are a Paragon, Mesmer, Ritualist, Devrish, Ranger, or Assassin you are simply out of luck?

Here's hoping that the next "elite" area will have a cookie cutter build that includes some of the other professions.

Oh and finally, totally off topic, why did Anet introduce the Assassin, an upfront fighter type with 70 Armor in the same chapter they put in exploding corpses? *Sigh* No wonder nobody likes the Assassin.

Tarkin · Apr 04, 2007, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amorfati87

I'd much prefer an area that you need to finesse a bit to get through. That takes a bit of brain power to get through. Not just mindlessly spamming Searing Flames, Glowing Gaze, Liquid Flame, with the occasional MS thrown in for good measure.

.

... if with mindless deadly mortal combo the team can die fast...
... i think how fast a brain build with mesmer, sin, rit, a ranger can die...

I have all 10 classes in DoA, complet with all skills... i love all classes... but... only elem have love...

Bryant Again · Apr 04, 2007, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qual

or not my young friend. I'll bet you 100$ that ravensong is thinking of rank and prof. discrimination. But I fail to see the wrong thing about that sort of discrimination. Now that you are so wise, plz explain to me what he was saying, you said that I missed the point of his quote...

The point he is saying is that "if there is profession discrimination, he won't be playing Guild Wars 2". Your post in response to his was "go roll a monk". The fact that people have to roll certain builds and professions - and in consequence having to own certain campaigns - is what is the problem. So your pretty much missing the discussion of the problem and reaffirming it instead.

Skyy High · Apr 04, 2007, 09:17 PM // 21:17

People discriminate because, if you don't know the proper build for going in there, you will die. Plain and simple. It's not a matter of "my dervish build is a great tank, why won't you let me in your group?"; if you're not running ridiculously powerful defense, you will die.

There are fast ways of going through DoA, and there are slow and painful ways. A PUG is not going to choose you if you don't fit into the fast method. Not their fault; that's the way the area is. If you want to play there as whatever you want...you need a guild.

wetsparks · Apr 04, 2007, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caoimhe

Form your own group? That's got to be the funniest thing I've heard today. With what? Unless you're in a huge guild with all sorts of noble sorts that are willing to help, you're more likely to get the Xunlai agent to go with you.

As much as I would love to take the Xunlai agent with me, the hacker would hog all the drops. Those guys run the world you know, they get whatever they want.

Tempy · Apr 04, 2007, 10:29 PM // 22:29

I have just figured out that I am part of a guild/alliance that is a very rare. We go into places like DoA, just to have fun. Oh the first times through are quite a laugh...and YES we laugh. "Well THAT didn't work so well" as we all lay there dead.

Silly us for thinking that this game well any game is supposed to be fun and not full of the animosity that so many seem to bring to it.

I hope on nights that we are on that some of you happen into DoA, we would love to play along with other "useless" professions.

Side note...sorry but the DoA area was flawed from the beginning...not many real people with real lives can sit on one quest/mission for HOURS and HOURS on end.

Happy Hunting

mr_groovy · Apr 04, 2007, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by runeseeker1

Really, the place is starting to be like HA, with people demanding that you have Lightbringer 3+ (like fame) or being a certain profession. A Dervish, Paragon, Ranger, Mesmer, Ritualist or Assassin isn't seen for miles.

Not True, Rangers can Set up the traps for snaring and do Some Major Sustainable damage with Barrage + Splinter Weapon. I think even more pressure then Ele's can. (If properly agro'd by tank offcourse

).

And if they don't want you just Solo trap, or Barrage Splinter the Stygian Veil (See my thread in the farming section

), of be a famine for the Monk + Ranger combo.

If you really want something, you'll find ways to get somewhere

Lyonette · Apr 05, 2007, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caoimhe

Greed.

That's all it is; people want more/better/stronger stuff, and will do whatever they have to to get it.

So those of us who are "stupid" enough to play a non-sanctioned character get left with the prospect of buying the loot those holy ones have so painstakingly farmed... over, and, over, and over again, while we unwashed masses lurk in the zone, pleading with someone to take us with them like some lost puppy.

It's elitism and discrimination, and frankly, I find it pathetic. Try being a mesmer at Deldrimor for an Oro run. Might as well not even log in.

Form your own group? That's got to be the funniest thing I've heard today. With what? Unless you're in a huge guild with all sorts of noble sorts that are willing to help, you're more likely to get the Xunlai agent to go with you.

Logic? Sure, it's logical, if all you want to do is maximise your profit. What happened to having fun? Oh, wait. Foolish me. I forgot that this wasn't meant to be fun, it was meant to increase the size of individual egos. Instead, every trip is a profit machine; don't bother trying to help or - gasp - learn how other professions might me useful in any given area. You might waste your time, and time is money!

Will this anger some people? Probably. I have only this to say to those who get hot under the collar: Methinks the lady/gent doth protest too much.

Cynical? Yeah, maybe. Why shouldn't I, or anyone else in this kind of a situation, be cynical?

And don't give me "The right person for the job" argument; that's hogwash. If the Dev team wanted a zone to be class-specific, it would have been built that way. Instead, we have elitists making the decisions for us.

The right person for the job is a player who uses their own intelligence to play their character effectively, given any circumstances. Instead we have cookie-cutter builds where about the only differences in characters is appearance and names. Yippee. Nothing like watching the same movie, over and over again. I would find it dreadfully boring myself.

Meh.

QFT!

Go Girl.

ca_aok · Apr 05, 2007, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

and if you can beat atleast 1 area, with a member of each profession you ranted about, i'll mail you a $100

Dom/Interrupt mesmer. This char alone made foundry go so much easier. Support ranger. Paragons can tank or heal, though admittedly they are least suited for DoA. Dervishes can tank. Assassins *can* tank. Rits can be awesome spirit support and restoration magic, or a nuker. I have seen all of these classes, been in groups with them, and they work fine. But the generic DoA build works BETTER, so therefore people would rather use that. The best idea is just to get a decent PvE guild and play with them, that's what I did.

Chop it Off · Apr 05, 2007, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by MirkoTeran

Poor dead horse....

*pulls out box of assorted clubs, bats, hammers, and axes.*

come on people, lets beat it good!

Caoimhe · Apr 05, 2007, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by wetsparks

As much as I would love to take the Xunlai agent with me, the hacker would hog all the drops. Those guys run the world you know, they get whatever they want.

LOL... Don't I know it.

I'd swear that just as I logged in the other day, I saw the sneaky Xunlai agent in Deldrimor rummaging through my stuff. It wouldn't have been so bad if she hadn't spilled purple dye all over my crafting supplies. Do you know how hard it is to sell purple amber?

Mister O · Apr 05, 2007, 01:42 AM // 01:42

I once joined a gloom group with an assassin tank, 2 monks and 5 mesmers (Assassin's promise + arcane echo + spiritual pain), and we managed to clear gloom pretty fast (~25 mins I guess)

There should be alot of builds without warrior and eles, it's just that everyone loves cookies...

Batou of Nine · Apr 05, 2007, 03:33 AM // 03:33

People play the "holy trinity" because A) it works B) it is all that they are taught.

Cookie cutter mentality invades more corners of GW because builds that are proven to work efficient are most sought after. This is closely followed by people's need for instant gratification, and these efficient and fast builds provide that... Creativity is always sacrificed when it comes to human greed.

In hindsight, NO the "holy trinity" is NOT the most effective. I am part of a guild that has done DoA since day one, and continues to do it very often. One of our officers basically only does DoA and always refines builds. We often go as all guild or alliance groups only, because we know that most people can fill any roll needed, and we can often work in the "odd" build. We often roll with 3 monk, 3 ele, 2 necro build. Basic and still only 3 classes. But seems to be even more effective then other builds. Now OUR mindset is honestly more about time management. Sure we want our riches too, but we like to do all 4 area runs in order to get the largest reward. With the effort come the rewards, so whittling the run from 8 hours down to around 5-6 hours proves worth it.

In short, just dont pug. I know that is naive in a sense, since not all people have access to a very active guild/alliance or even a guild/alliance that is very knowledgable about DoA. However, put in the effort to find a guild that knows and often does DoA through your pugs. It will take effort and fustration, but in the end it will be so worth it.

Ya my whole 2 cents are kind of contradictory since i say that our guild has the same basic mentality, but in a more conducive and friendly atmosphere, will allow for leeway when it comes to different profession involvment...

IDK, in the end, don't bash on other people for buying into the cookie cutter mentality, its expected. Rather take the efforts yourself to find that good guild or group of friends that does it often and becomes knowledgable about the area enough to be able to experiement and run the builds you want.

Best of wishes to the OP in his efforts. I hope you can find a good active DoA guild....

cheers.

aaje vhanli · Apr 05, 2007, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDarkOneVK

So if using something different means it takes me a bit longer and I lose my "farming efficiency" or whatever, that's fine. Is anyone with me? (Probably not

)

What I enjoy most about GW is the different possibilities for play-style. I have (at least) one character of each profession for this very reason. I like the challenge of figuring out how I can make it thru the game with my own strategies and devices. If I can't complete a mission or task with a certain character, I take the time to mix my skills around and attribute points and figure out what will work for me. I'm with you on that one, but that's just how we choose to play the game.

I just wish it weren't so hard to find like-minds in the GW world (the persistence of GW2 might make this easier).

manitoba1073 · Apr 05, 2007, 05:14 AM // 05:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chop it Off

*pulls out box of assorted clubs, bats, hammers, and axes.*

come on people, lets beat it good!

here you go. lol
get some practice in lol

Orinn · Apr 05, 2007, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

People use the "holy trinity" because they're what works.

Sorry.

That isn't discrimination. That's mechanics. When going into an area like DoA, onw where you are outnumbered and facing VERY difficult encounters, you have 2 choices:

1: Go in with a team that has proven to be effective against the encounters you will face. This makes success more likely, as well as reducing the aggravation of these areas. You build a specific team, with specific roles, because those roles WORK, period.

2: Go in with a team that is not proven to work.The only way that you won't encounter frustration is to go in with an entire team that understands that the makeup is experimental. Go in with the idea not of beating the area, but of experimenting, probably wiping several times, and go in with a like-minded group of people. You may make it far, you may wipe the first time. If the entire party is NOT informed of the experimental nature of the group, a lot of drama ensues, including ragequitting.

Do whatever sounds fun to you, but remember this: most people there want to get the gemstones. Method #1 will get you gemstones, while method #2 may, may not. Players aren't the ones who made up DoA, they aren't the ones who decided that certain classes were a lot less effective there. The developers decided the mechanics of the area, and currently, the mechanics of the area make the trinity builds the most effective.

Firestone · Apr 05, 2007, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by thelegendozelda

your more than welcome to start your own group with whatever you like,

and if you can beat atleast 1 area, with a member of each profession you ranted about, i'll mail you a $100

is it in usd$100 or rupiah$100 lol

Effendi Westland · Apr 05, 2007, 06:34 AM // 06:34

DoA is a flawed design that exposed the imbalance between classes in pve. Don't like it when it is useless to interrupt simply because if you need to interrupt you are dead already.

Hour after hour of the same. Tank goes up to get aggro, monks try and keep him alive, nukers nuke, things go wrong, almost party wipe, rebirth, repeat. Not what I would call fun and repeatable.

Very telling that 85% of the people at DoA are looking for a farming group and the others are looking to kill Mallyx.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vilaptca

Not exactly something the dev team controls....it was the player-base who decided that this and nothing else works. There are a few out there who understand the potential of the other classes, but most everyone is stuck on the trinity or whatever it was called.

The dev team designed the area in such a way that only one approach works.