Curse

Heimdallw32 · Aug 12, 2007, 03:54 PM // 15:54

People want the "most efficient" team builds because they don't want to spend more time than the couple hours FoW already takes with a random group. I know I wouldn't want to spend six hours there with people I don't even know. Also people like to win. People don't like to fail. Sure, unconventional builds -may- work but cookiecutter builds are -known- to work...most people prefer to assure success the first time rather than having to make multiple attempts and -maybe- get halfway through before people get tired/bored.

Experiment with friends/guildies, or heros/henchies. And saying you're running one build when you actually use another? That's like a monk saying he's healing but in reality is a 55...or any other number of examples.

I'm all for innovation, but it's just simpler and less stressful to not want people to use bizarre builds in a random PUG.

Lord Feathers · Aug 12, 2007, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Well I guess I would have to declare myself narrow minded and guilty as charged like a lot of others. When I see people asking for the " X " build only to join their group or " Must have Vent Or T.S. " in-order to even play with them or even using the LEET noob bashing while talking in local chat......I just can't bring myself to even game with them. There is a difference between trying to perhaps help someone or succeed at something and a difference in making one self seem like a supreme know it all player. I have ran into both while playing. I have seen highly skilled players that could have been a great person to learn from be such dick heads that nobody would want anything to do with them. In the end no matter which way you explain it or way you justify the behavior it all boils down to the person at the key board.

kazjun · Aug 13, 2007, 01:03 AM // 01:03

If you join a party, you should be willing to go with the group. If you're set on only playing what you want to play, then make your own group.

And yes, you may know and love your build, but that doesn't mean its good. I could devote the next 10 years to mastering hamstorm, and being the best hamstormer around. That doesn't mean the build is any good.

And as for being creative rather than cookie cutter? Well, that is good, but you gotta have some common sense. I could stick 12 healing prayers and 12 prot on a warrior. Does that mean I'd fit for taking over monking duties for the party? After all, I got good armour so I'd be hard to gank right? Likewise a squishie playing melee. Ripostes do good damage but you can only really farm melees. And you'll hurt if they hit in between the ripostes. Elemental damage will pawn you. Far more than your vamp skills will keep you alive.

If you joined with this build, I'd ask you to change, and if you didn't, I'd kick you. I've got limited time to play, I wouldn't want to be carrying dead weight. And yes, fow is easy, but there's a difference between carrying dead weight who's hanging out the back out of the way, and carrying dead weight who's leroying into the front line trying to just be dead.

Curse You · Aug 13, 2007, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by neoflame

you just gave me an idea for a new build

signet of judgment
bane signet
signet of rage
primal echoes
quickening zephyr
nature's renewal
brambles
holy wrath

expertise for cheaper signets and qz for fast recharge, since you don't need energy after you put up spirits holy wrath = uber damage LOLOL! brambles+knockdown=bleeding which counters that bane of my existence, mending

Only problem is that Expertise doesn't effect monk skills, so the signets would still cost 10 energy.

Melody Cross · Aug 13, 2007, 05:55 AM // 05:55

PuGs standardize for a reason many people do not understand: skills SHOULD be familiar in a build when you are working with players you don't know. This is why FoTM builds are popular in the first place: its easier to level the "skillful" playing field of a game if you standardize the skills used. A bad (or just very new) player will play badly, but the skill will still work the same and he will learn quickly how to use it properly (one hopes). A good player will use the skill "right" immediately, and the game will go smoother.

If you know the players you are running with, its more easy to become flexible because you know their habits. In GvG, balanced builds (used to) dominate top tier play over FoTMs. The top players play together (and against each other) lots and know each other's quirks; the skills they use are less an issue than each player knowing how the other will use them.

Variation is and should be fairly welcome when you know your team and know that--if its a build they like--the build they want to bring is one they will play well. You can build around them, they can build around you, and different types of characters can be brought in than the ones used in a standard PuG (like dervs, some of the best solo farmers in the game atm for certain areas).

But if you have only met for that match, players need to have a frame of reference for how each other will play, and similar builds let players know what to expect of people they have never even talked to before that day. IWAY, SF, Rit spike, NR/Tranq. They may be hated, but if you don't want to spend all day spamming for a group (and learning each others habits) or play with AI, FotMs are needed.

Its the same for PvE. A common frame of reference makes the game go smoother when you are unfamiliar with each other.

@OP: if you are pinging the build the team wants, only to switch to the build you want, you are in the wrong. If you want diversity so badly and are so established as a player, it should be no sweat for you to get your own scroll instead of leeching off someone else's work. You're right. We don't make the rules. But Anet does, and I'm pretty sure build swapping the way you are is a violation of the code of conduct. If it is your intent to insist on swapping after a ping request, I hope you do that with a mod around, and I hope they ban you for it. One thing sure, i won't willingly play with anyone named subway culture...

PS: drops are random and no amount of healing or attacking or casting will change that.

GGs

neoflame · Aug 13, 2007, 06:40 AM // 06:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

Only problem is that Expertise doesn't effect monk skills, so the signets would still cost 10 energy.

You appear to have missed the sarcasm.

Guildmaster Cain · Aug 13, 2007, 07:59 AM // 07:59

The problem with people not getting into groups when they ping their build is that their build just basically sucks. Or at least not for the very purpose the group is looking for.
If a group is looking for a stance tank, dont expect them to take u while carrying Battle rage.

5-man groups, dont even bother with those if u dont have the build, its stupid since they only work with the specific team build.
Try to find a party that calls themselves balanced 8-man or something. Or get friends and guildies to make one. Its called Guild Wars, so why not be in a guild with ppl that do the same thing as you. Or you prefer being in ur 1-man guild?

If ur not getting into Fow with any character, its really ur own fault, so stop pointing at other people.

Verek · Aug 13, 2007, 12:15 PM // 12:15

I like running a Virulence build on my N/Mes - Enfeeble/Virulence/Epidemic/Vil Miasma/Well of Suffering/Well of Weariness/SOLS/Res 16 Death/11SR/9Curses - I would always ping my build (as this build can be a pain in the arse for Monks) and if they kick me that's OK, I can understand it.

If you want to join a pug, just ask them what they want and if you want to play, change to that build or, if not, use hero's and henchies....

Blackhawk · Aug 13, 2007, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by judgedread33

The reason the leader kicks you when u have a strange build is because they dont want to stuff around changing their build and the build of the party members to accommodate your build.

If you got in a nice group of friends or guildies you would find them a lot more friendlier and more willing to change their build rather then yours.

One of the reasons, I never PuG in FoW, so much better to go with Friends/Guildies who don't mind you testing a build, or taking another class to see how viable it is.

upier · Aug 13, 2007, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verek

I like running a Virulence build on my N/Mes - Enfeeble/Virulence/Epidemic/Vil Miasma/Well of Suffering/Well of Weariness/SOLS/Res 16 Death/11SR/9Curses - I would always ping my build (as this build can be a pain in the arse for Monks) and if they kick me that's OK, I can understand it.

If you want to join a pug, just ask them what they want and if you want to play, change to that build or, if not, use hero's and henchies....

Just wondering- did you ever consider switching out Enfeeble?
Sure it is super-sweet (although I am a much bigger fan of Enfeebling Blood) - but since Virulence already gives weakness - how about Phantom Pain? You dump your Curses into Illusion - take PP and Clumsiness (instead of Well Of Weariness which is pretty much useless in PvE). You get some MAJOR spammable damage from Clumsiness - and Virulence will hit harder with the deep wound. (+ there's the whole 15 sec Viru recharge and the 20 sec one of PP)
(Just playing around with ideas since it's been ages that I used a death build WITHOUT minions!)

Verek · Aug 13, 2007, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Quote:

Just wondering- did you ever consider switching out Enfeeble?
Sure it is super-sweet (although I am a much bigger fan of Enfeebling Blood) - but since Virulence already gives weakness - how about Phantom Pain? You dump your Curses into Illusion - take PP and Clumsiness (instead of Well Of Weariness which is pretty much useless in PvE). You get some MAJOR spammable damage from Clumsiness - and Virulence will hit harder with the deep wound. (+ there's the whole 15 sec Viru recharge and the 20 sec one of PP)
(Just playing around with ideas since it's been ages that I used a death build WITHOUT minions!)

I know this is off topic so sorry all,

I like Enfeeble as it's only 5e and quick, only use it so I can get the Virulence and Epidemic chain going, mostly use Well of Weariness to use up corpses as again it's quick and easy.

I must say that using Phantom Pain does look good and with clumsiness could be very good, I shall give it a go.

Back on topic,

Use Guildies, Friends or Henchies if you want to run off the wall builds.

populationcontrol · Aug 16, 2007, 07:49 PM // 19:49

not familiar with the gw slang but im guessing from previous posts that "PuG" is the actual name for standardrized build to go into certain areas. well in any case id just like to say that most "failed" fow teams have been the "PuG" tank monks ss and eles, all of these that have failed if rastigan isnt killed i am always left standing, yes that really is a sign of my build beeing weak. ive had far more success with 5 man teams that use dervishes and mesmers than with 8 man average fow teams which says alot. id like to encourage people to use there creative faculties to use new more fun maybe even more effective builds than adapting to the standard and rejecting anything that they do not understand. as to my build you can pretty much duel anything in fow even in hard mode except spiders, which of course your role is to bring up wells and help with gaze or whatever. ss necros are fun to play to, but the point of this post is to encourage unconvetional builds. both can work but the one i posted has slightly a less damage out put but compensates in that all your attacks heal you and profit of the enemies actions and you dont have to rely on monks. i made it originally pvp where its really successful and find using in pve is also fun and effective, while its a sort of dueling build and you should avoid large mobs, it is increadibly effective if you know how to play it which im sure non of you have.

as to the guy that insists that he gets in to fow farming teams all the time as assasin in an effort to discredit my observation on how narrow minded fow teams can be, seriously get real maybe as a last resort or if you pay for everyone otherwise i really know not only because when im in groups they never let the applying assasin in but they also say stuff a long the lines of "assasins suck in fow", "lol look assasin thinks hell ill let him in my team" "assasins are only good for pvp" and much more. so like stop pretending assasins are accepted in the average fow team.

i canot tolerate intolerance, in my opinion the only reason party leaders are there is to pay for the fow entrance, not to decide what im going to play as. part of the appeal of the game for me is combining strategies and skills and experiment with strategies not obey someone elses concept of what succeed (which is always the same in fow and often doesnt even work). yes 2 man uw requires ss on necro but i also take ripostes and blood skills (having the monk take sympathetic) and im able to clear uw. if monk happens to die i can solo a cow with this, even if theres a agro of two cows. and if thats doable and easy for me theres definately room for creative freedom in fow where alot less pressure is on a single character. ill retire from this thread with my opinion that the game is always more fun if you design your own strategy and choosing your own role for your team rather than doing wht everyone else is doing, this game is about creative freedom not following orders.

ultima · Aug 16, 2007, 08:36 PM // 20:36

i think the monk probally ruined your game cause you didnt do any damage... which you don't.... its the same thing as people still play a warrior or dervish and make it a tank in normal mode. You don't need a tank in normal mode!!! (not talking about DoA etc) Even in hard mode i find the tanks rediculous you got hero's these days give them the skills so you don't die and go full damage.

t_the_nihilst · Aug 16, 2007, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

...but your build sucks more than a black hole, and I have trouble believing that you've had success with it. Well of Blood more useful than Blood Ritual?! What the heck?!

I'm sorry, but I'd have to agree here. Br and Well of Blood serve two completely different purposes so I don't really understand that statement.

Look, I'm going to take a shot at being blunt and moderately polite at the same time.
Maybe they are going about it in a mean way, but are you also adverse to advise concerning you build?
Maybe you’d be better off to take some.

zwei2stein · Aug 16, 2007, 08:46 PM // 20:46

I would love to see that build take on aataxe, one on one. Serious.

Post us screenies of your goldy build solo pwning aataxes.

You can't see me · Aug 16, 2007, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by populationcontrol

not familiar with the gw slang but im guessing from previous posts that "PuG" is the actual name for standardrized build to go into certain areas. well in any case id just like to say that most "failed" fow teams have been the "PuG" tank monks ss and eles, all of these that have failed if rastigan isnt killed i am always left standing, yes that really is a sign of my build beeing weak. ive had far more success with 5 man teams that use dervishes and mesmers than with 8 man average fow teams which says alot. id like to encourage people to use there creative faculties to use new more fun maybe even more effective builds than adapting to the standard and rejecting anything that they do not understand. as to my build you can pretty much duel anything in fow even in hard mode except spiders, which of course your role is to bring up wells and help with gaze or whatever. ss necros are fun to play to, but the point of this post is to encourage unconvetional builds. both can work but the one i posted has slightly a less damage out put but compensates in that all your attacks heal you and profit of the enemies actions and you dont have to rely on monks. i made it originally pvp where its really successful and find using in pve is also fun and effective, while its a sort of dueling build and you should avoid large mobs, it is increadibly effective if you know how to play it which im sure non of you have.

as to the guy that insists that he gets in to fow farming teams all the time as assasin in an effort to discredit my observation on how narrow minded fow teams can be, seriously get real maybe as a last resort or if you pay for everyone otherwise i really know not only because when im in groups they never let the applying assasin in but they also say stuff a long the lines of "assasins suck in fow", "lol look assasin thinks hell ill let him in my team" "assasins are only good for pvp" and much more. so like stop pretending assasins are accepted in the average fow team.

i canot tolerate intolerance, in my opinion the only reason party leaders are there is to pay for the fow entrance, not to decide what im going to play as. part of the appeal of the game for me is combining strategies and skills and experiment with strategies not obey someone elses concept of what succeed (which is always the same in fow and often doesnt even work). yes 2 man uw requires ss on necro but i also take ripostes and blood skills (having the monk take sympathetic) and im able to clear uw. if monk happens to die i can solo a cow with this, even if theres a agro of two cows. and if thats doable and easy for me theres definately room for creative freedom in fow where alot less pressure is on a single character. ill retire from this thread with my opinion that the game is always more fun if you design your own strategy and choosing your own role for your team rather than doing wht everyone else is doing, this game is about creative freedom not following orders.

Time to end this argument.

Let's adress these issues. First of, PuG means pick-up-group. I'd think if you have played long enough to have FoW armor and farm FoW as much as you claim, you'd know that. I have doubts that you do or have done either that much.

Party leaders are not there just to pay for the entrance. They are there to direct the group. If I start a FoW party, it becomes my decision if I want an easy laid back farm or a hardcore timed farmed for a serious run. I invite people who want the same thing, and I don't invite the people who don't. And I expect everyone to pitch in on the entrance fee. If you didn't know, it's not just the leader that can pay the fee. That's only fair, since they're ALL going to reap the benefits.

Now concerning your post on Cows, there you're just flat lying. Cow's hit for 300 damage on your soft necromancer body on NM and you can't spam riposte and deadly riposte enough to negate even one cow's attack speed. And Vamperic Gaze? Give me a break. 60 health to make up for the 300 you lost. Bull excrement right there, and nothing but.

And by the way, after some testing, I've found your build doesn't even stand in the noob island hard mode areas of cantha and elona. You say that you can survive without healing? Yeah. Right. That build can't. You're taking the monk's healing for granted.

As a necromancer, your deadly risposte and riposte are NOT spammable enough to negate any damage. Even a toucher specced for the purpose of being up front cannot negate that much damage, and you're anything but, and that's how you claim to be healed. As for BotA, it DOES NOT heal you. It only conditionally makes up for the amount you sacrificed.

As for not taking blood ritual, if you're not willing to lose some health for the sake of speeding up the team's farm, I don't see anyone who would take you except maybe a very forgiving guild group composed of your guild members only. Your health is expendable, not a necisity. You just let the monks heal you after you cast it. That's how it works.....

After testing, and reading all your posts and the OP, these are the conclusions I make:

-You don't have your necromancer far enough to buy BR, so you lie as to make up for not having it.

-You're lying on this thread about the effectiveness of your build.

-You're lying about ownership of FoW armor

-You're making up stories abut that monk

-You have not done FoW that much because you cannot get into a group with that build, so you know nothing about it. For your information, Cows are in the underworld, not FoW just so you know.

-You know nothing about FoW or the UW

-You are lying about soloing two Cows on that build, or even one

-You do not know what a Cow is

-You made this post because you are angry that you cannot farm FoW or UW because the groups refuse to take them with you.

I don't blame them one bit.

End of story.

rick1027 · Aug 16, 2007, 08:51 PM // 20:51

my only problem is the group that ask for nothing invites you asks you to ping then cuts you without even discussing what they wanted. happened to me a lot seeing i usually go blood with heros and henchies get to a mission get invited with out even avertising then getting kicked and not knowing why. hey i can do the ss thing hey i can mm let me know first or at least discuss if i dont want to play what you want then kick me.

Ghost Omel · Aug 16, 2007, 08:53 PM // 20:53

I completely agrre about everybody being the same its really getting really annoyeng to same thing ove rand over again seeing Paladins and Warrior/Eles running around and not caring for other secondary professions as Necromancer or dev or paragon or anyhting innthat matter the Same builds i see in Paladins drives me to dislike fighting them with though knowing there is no adrenalin rush as you know what to expect and usualy either win after 30 min fight or loose. It like fighting a river you will never win Keeping your character as diferent as posible is one of the major goals on nay opnline game
Personal;y i hae 1 Char a W/N and the build is top secret as i dont like advertising it was building it since day 1 of factions and knowing that you are 1 of the kind with that build is a shure +to your morale putting spice into group is also a good reputation maker both in the guild and in the community so i completely agrre witht the statemnet of being "Clone of a clone of the other clone"

ShadowsRequiem · Aug 16, 2007, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by You can't see me

After testing, and reading all your posts and the OP, these are the conclusions I make:

-You don't have your necromancer far enough to buy BR, so you lie as to make up for not having it.

-You're lying on this thread about the effectiveness of your build.

-You're lying about ownership of FoW armor

-You're making up stories abut that monk

-You have not done FoW that much because you cannot get into a group with that build, so you know nothing about it. For your information, Cows are in the underworld, not FoW just so you know.

-You know nothing about FoW or the UW

-You are lying about soloing two Cows on that build, or even one

-You do not know what a Cow is

-You made this post because you are angry that you cannot farm FoW or UW because the groups refuse to take them with you.

I don't blame them one bit.

End of story.

This thread delivers!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost Omel

Personal;y i hae 1 Char a W/N and the build is top secret as i dont like advertising it was building it since day 1 of factions and knowing that you are 1 of the kind with that build is a shure +to your morale putting spice into group is also a good reputation maker both in the guild and in the community so i completely agrre witht the statemnet of being "Clone of a clone of the other clone"

ummm W/N? you're not talking about the age old grenths balance riposte farmer are you lol?

Y.T. · Aug 16, 2007, 09:24 PM // 21:24

no offence but ur build's dreadful - i rly doubt u actually managed to clear FOW once with this build, pray tell me how u're going to make a well out of skelly? whyy u dont want to use more useful war skills if u want to bring any? also why do u need scroll when u can just pay 1k and go - and evry region has favor almost 24/7 now?
and the most interesting question is - why do u think avg intelligent pug will not let asn or rit or say paragon in and whats the point of getting into cookie-cutter-build group if u insist on running ur very own weird builds? heroes and guildies are here for u

edit: i didnt want to sound harsh,what i tryed to say is - fow's so easy u can kill most of the groups with 4-5 exp ppl just as fast as u can do it with 8ppl, so most pugs will take 2-3 ppl with unconventional builds, but only if the build does make sence in general, theres always some room for dead weight

of cos its disappointing if u got kicked from the group, but u cant be THE ONE whos always right about evrthing and just call ppl names - if u got kicked from quite a few groups in the row cos they think ur build's not going to work it dosnt mean that they're all ignorant, it mean that its time for u to learn smth new dont u think