Curse

Shaq_gw · Aug 23, 2007, 10:53 AM // 10:53

Reading in the manual for GW:EN that King Adelbern is still, but barely, holding out against the charr invasion i feel like i deserted them and that Rurik was not a great leader but a pessimistic fool

How do we face the families that have lost their loved ones while we were running away from the threat, cowards that we were.

Ok we ran into new threats and we beat them, making entire continents think we are hero's but ........ we should know better.

Arkantos · Aug 23, 2007, 10:54 AM // 10:54

We ended up saving Tyria from the Lich. Saving Tyria > saving Ascalon, which would lead to the Lich and the titans taking over.

Also, I wouldn't say we were cowards. We guided innocent people to safety.

Shaq_gw · Aug 23, 2007, 11:00 AM // 11:00

Did we really save tyria?

Kryta is now in a bloody civil war were each party is set to win no matter what the cost.

Ascalon is all but fallen

We cleared sorrows furnace making it possible for a new artifact to be found and the dwarves trying to awaken the great destroyer.

That is not saving my dear, that is making things worse.

Solar_Takfar · Aug 23, 2007, 11:02 AM // 11:02

Yea, we were guiding refugees out of a war zone. not every family with women and children and elders would rather stay and fight, you see. Besides, moving said women and children and elders away from the danger zone probably helped the defenders by making them unconcerned with their safety and able to focus on the fighting. Oh, that, and we saved the planet, too. Thrice, it'd seem. And now we get to go back to save Ascalon.

Quote:

Kryta is now in a bloody civil war were each party is set to win no matter what the cost.

Ascalon is all but fallen

We cleared sorrows furnace making it possible for a new artifact to be found to awaken the great destroyer.

That is not saving my dear, that is making things worse.

Oh come on, this kind of things happen all the time. Can't save a city without destroying a couple dozen buildings, as Godzilla would say. You think things would be worse off if Abaddon had turned the planet into a new torment zone?

Etta · Aug 23, 2007, 11:08 AM // 11:08

You have to look at the bigger picture. It's not about making thing right, its about making the right thing. Save the mesmer, save Tyria.

Arkantos · Aug 23, 2007, 11:09 AM // 11:09

Yes, because obviously the fall of a city and a civil war is worse then Tyria being taken over by the Lich and his army of titans.

Shaq_gw · Aug 23, 2007, 11:11 AM // 11:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etta

You have to look at the bigger picture. It's not about making thing right, its about making the right thing. Save the mesmer, save Tyria.

About that mesmer, we left her alone for the charr to ravage her house and kill her mother. And now we go back to save her, expecting her to fight on our side.

At least we got a bonus pack mission out of it )

Argon Draeth · Aug 23, 2007, 11:13 AM // 11:13

primary objective in the hells precipice mission: Stop the Lich from destroying the world.

saving the world > than saving ascalon

Tijger · Aug 23, 2007, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaq_gw

Reading in the manual for GW:EN that King Adelbern is still, but barely, holding out against the charr invasion i feel like i deserted them and that Rurik was not a great leader but a pessimistic fool

How do we face the families that have lost their loved ones while we were running away from the threat, cowards that we were.

Ok we ran into new threats and we beat them, making entire continents think we are hero's but ........ we should know better.

Eh, I think you got it wrong, Rurik left precisely because of what would happen and what has happened according to the manual, that Ascalon was doomed to be pushed back further and further until extinction which is why he left to save what he could save from Ascalonian society and people.

zanntos · Aug 23, 2007, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaq_gw

Did we really save tyria?

Kryta is now in a bloody civil war were each party is set to win no matter what the cost.

Ascalon is all but fallen

We cleared sorrows furnace making it possible for a new artifact to be found and the dwarves trying to awaken the great destroyer.

That is not saving my dear, that is making things worse.

1) Kryta was already in a civil war before we showed up and we're the only thing hat stopped the place from being controlled by the Unseen. The Shining Blades were ALREADY infiltrated by the Mantle when you show up and without your help saving their leaders they would have been wiped out.

2) Ascalon was already hosed, it was a losing fight already when Rurik and the survivors left. And in the grand scheme of things you're probably the only thing that really saved the place by killing the Charrs Titan gods and in doing so throwing the Charr into social chaos thus giving Ascalon at least a half a chance at holding on.

3) The dwarves getting the book made them put some credibility on the legend of the great dwarf and great destroyer. They aren't trying to wake the Destroyer up, they're trying to build a army to take the thing down.

Shaq_gw · Aug 23, 2007, 11:31 AM // 11:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argon Draeth

primary objective in the hells precipice mission: Stop the Lich from destroying the world.

saving the world > than saving ascalon

True but we didn't know this when we left ascalon.

So looking back we left them because rurik was afraid we could not win against the charr.

And what if it was our actions that spawned all the new threats into the world. Kryta was in perfect peace untill we came there and started the unraveling of the flameseeker prophecies. (see post of x iceman x below)

@Zanntos,
1) The shining blade were only a small resistance movement nothing like a full blown bloody civil war
2) Ascalon was not hosed because even without us Adelbern is still holding out.
3) The stone summit want to awaken the destroyer, with the artefact i posession by the deldrimor they might acquire it somehow and do their thing

X Ice Man X · Aug 23, 2007, 11:38 AM // 11:38

The world didn't really need saving on Tyria so much untill we came along and helped the Lich free the titans. So really we only undid what we started in the first place in Tyria atleast.

WinterSnowblind · Aug 23, 2007, 11:51 AM // 11:51

Yes, we abandoned Ascalon to save the rest of Tyria, which I guess could be seen as wrong, but isn't that why we're going back now? I'm really looking forward to seeing what happens to Ascalon, it'll be really neat to see what it's like a few hundred years later in GW2.

draxynnic · Aug 23, 2007, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaq_gw

@Zanntos,
1) The shining blade were only a small resistance movement nothing like a full blown bloody civil war
2) Ascalon was not hosed because even without us Adelbern is still holding out.
3) The stone summit want to awaken the destroyer, with the artefact out they might acquire it somehow and do their thing

1) But they were resisting for a reason. Without them (and us) eventually the Chosen would have been culled from Kryta entirely. Such a genocide may have lead to more deaths in the long run, especially if the Chosen were to be proven to be necassary for dealing with another threat later.

2) But would we really have made that much of a difference? Try holding back the entire Charr army at the Great Northern Wall in Hard Mode - that's pretty much what you're asking to be required of heroes. That's what an army is for...

Besides, my impression was that Rurik was always intending to regroup, gather allies, and return, until he had a fatal encounter with Dagnar's axe. Essentially, the Ascalonian PCs have been acting as scouts - going to Cantha and Elona, for instance, could be seen as expecting those nations to send help once they've dealt with their own problems. (And who knows, maybe they will. Give those Kurzicks and Luxons another common enemy to fight instead of each other... "You know those nice heroes that killed Shiro? Well, back in their homeland...")

Furthermore, while the cutscene at the end of Nolani is ambiguous, it could be interpreted as the PCs being implicitly banished along with Rurik. Timewarping map travel aside, the players may not have been allowed to return until the Titans showed up.

3) The Tome was in Stone Summit territory to begin with. Without the players, they would have probably won the civil war as well, and nothing would have stopped them from recovering it at their leisure. Now, assuming the Stone Summit is still a threat (what I've seen from GWEN indicates that it isn't), they at least have to fight their way into a heavily-guarded dwarven citadel to get it. (Okay, they've done that once before, but then they had their army caught between us and the Mursaat afterwards.)

With regards to the Lich freeing the Titans - while according to prophecy he needed us to do it, remember that that prophecy was put out by Glint expecting us to kill him afterwards. I personally have a strong suspicion that the Flameseeker Prophecies was actually a subtle trap - without us he would have eventually got them out anyway, but wouldn't have had a battalion of heroes ready to put him down before he got half of Torment through the Door of Komalie.

Shaq_gw · Aug 23, 2007, 12:03 PM // 12:03

@draxinnic

1) a few chosen every week to keep the peace? In the end we were the real chosen ones. We were the ones who forced the white mantle to show their true face and to start a terror campaign against the ppl. Before that the world was in order and the ppl seemed happy, not knowing any better.

2) I gues we would not have made much of a difference, but we still left them. At the time we did not know we would eventually save the world a few times AND come back to save them too )

3) The first point that makes me feel a little better about what we did, but still very speculatory

The lich NEEDED us for something. Why would he lay out such an elaborate plan of entrapment if he could get the Scepter and te Titans by himself. So not going there might have saved a lot more lives .....

crow120 · Aug 23, 2007, 12:10 PM // 12:10

The ends justified our means. I will be interested to see how the king is handling Rurik dying then being a zombie then dying again. Whatever we do, thanks to them announcing GW2, we know that it all comes out right as rain in the end. Some have to fall for the rest to live.

draxynnic · Aug 23, 2007, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaq_gw

@draxinnic

1) a few chosen every week to keep the peace? In the end we were the real chosen ones.

2) I gues we would not have made much of a difference, but we still left them. At the time we did not know we would eventually save the world a few times AND come back to save them too )

New #3) The lich NEEDED us for something. Why would he lay out such an elaborate plan of entrapment if he could get the Scepter and te Titans by himself. So not going there might have saved a lot more lives .....

1) The Mursaat believed (correctly) that the Chosen were going to be responsible for their doom. Their intent was to prevent this by wiping the Chosen out. They may have been doing it slowly to stop people getting suspicious, but it was genocide nonetheless - and we don't really know what proportion of the Krytan population is/was Chosen.

Besides, Kryta under the White Mantle didn't exactly sound like a utopia. From the GW manual, all the wealth was in the hands of the Mantle (it talks about them having near-palatial accomodations while the regular people live in hovels...) and the testimony-gathering quest gives a strong "one law for the commons, one for the rulers" vibe - first the Ascalonian woman (a foreigner) is the only one willing to point the finger at them, the others either refuse to talk or feed you what must be the party line about the Shining Blade, and finally the Mantle inquisitor takes over the investigation. I'll bet that Ascalonian woman was dead before the PCs reached Druid's Overlook... (Okay, that's more in support of your argument that we aren't heroes, but it shows what the society was like...)

2) We didn't know we'd save the world, but we did know a couple of things - first that we'd been trying for two years without much success. It isn't expressely stated, I know, but I always thought that a large part of leaving was a case of "Well, this isn't working, so let's try and find something that does work." It's not abandonment, it's that the PCs are looking elsewhere for something that will bring victory.

New #3) The point I'm making is... maybe he didn't need us. Maybe he only used us because the Prophecies gave him the idea. Maybe, if he couldn't use us, he would have found some other way to achieve his objectives - raising a huge army of undead out of the remains of Orr and the people of Kryta with the aim of simply drowning the Mursaat under a pile of bodies. We gave him an easier way - but one that lead to his doom. Without us, he may have find his own way that, while harder, wouldn't have led to his destruction at the hands of his discarded tools.

@crow120: Not necassarily - I vaguely remember reading that humanity would be in dire straits in GW2. That might not necassarily be a result of the events in GW1 - two hundred years is a long time - but it is an indication that the existence of GW2 isn't a sign of everything coming out well in the end, just that the world isn't destroyed in the meantime.

glountz · Aug 23, 2007, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Wha????
Did you finish Prophecies and did you do the Titan quests? Without us, not only Ascalon but Droknar, Kryta and Maguuma would be presently overrun by Titans, the Lich ruling them all.
You saved Ascalon by killing the titans, the only force against Aldebern couldn't win, and letting him taking care of this petty but numerous lvl 8 charrs.
You saved Shiverpeaks from becoming a Nazi dwarf kingdom.
You saved Kryta from being changed into undead's and mursaat garden.
Isn't it enough?
Do you need more?
We didn't leave Aldebern. We saved his people, grew up to be heroes, ascended, then went back in Ascalon to kick Titan's arse, completely screwing Char shamans rule over their race, as Titans were proven not to be gods.
Thanks to us (as you make it happen in the last day dawn quest), Aldebern kept his kingdom.

Sorry, I feel like you insult my three hundreds hours played.

Sophitia Leafblade · Aug 23, 2007, 01:44 PM // 13:44

I dont seem to have seen this mentioned above but I must point out we didnt Abandon Ascalon we were Banished from it

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nolani Academy

King Adelbern: "You would dare call your king a fool? I will hear no more. I banish you from Ascalon! You are no longer my prince, and you are no longer my son!"
Prince Rurik: "People of Rin! Your king will lead you to death. If you wish to see better days, if you wish to live, then leave the beasts behind and follow me over the Shiverpeaks. We make for Kryta and a new life, free of the Charr."

Rurik had the right Idea, to restore the Nations of Tryia by allying together and essentially becoming one nation once more as they had originally. King Adelbern was a frightened and weakened King who didnt have the nerve to fight the Charr anymore much like his predeccessor (whom he took the crown over from for that very reason), It was only After The Death of his son (inadvertantly caused by his Order of Banishment) that he realised what he had become and decided to restore the Honor of Ascalon by finally making a Stand no Matter how hopless the situation seemed (as seen in the Last Day Dawns)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Last Day Dawns

"An old king dons his armor, heavy with time, to fight a battle he cannot win. It is his will alone that keeps Ascalon alive."

Anyone who has read the EotN manual will also see that Adelbern continued his self restoration and ordered the Ascalon (Ebon) Vanguard behind enemy lines to disrupt the Charr.

X Ice Man X · Aug 23, 2007, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Thanks to us (as you make it happen in the last day dawn quest), Aldebern kept his kingdom.

Sorry, I feel like you insult my three hundreds hours played.

Well I've got over 3 thousand hours played.

The Chosen were killed on the blood stone to keep the soul batteries that were containing the titans charged so that they could not escape. We came along and stop all of that happening. There is not way that you can argue that we "saved the world" without accepting that if it wasn't for us it wouldn't need saving.

People say the Mursaat are evil yet, you are being lead by the lich. They fight you in defence of thier race, as it was said that the titans would kill all of the Mursaat.

Everything that you did that was good and saved the world was only you fixing a problem that you had created in the first place.

So yes, glountz might be right you did save Ascalon from those titans in the titans quests. It is a fact though that we did let them out, hence the need to stop them.